Re: (Nate) Afraid Anonamous

[Guest guest]

have

Nate

In response I'd will say that you dont know me at all, whether I have my shit together or not. I do and did. In contrast, my former parole officer who chose to file a parole violation on me for consuming alcohol, was, at the time, buying cocain from my x-girlfriend. Not switching blame, just putting some context to the situation for you. Also, many people here in VT are forced to attend these XA groups as a catch all just to document quotas to get funding from the federal government.

nuff said

Steve

[Guest guest]

>

> Why do you think I'm defending AA? I'm talking about personal

dignity in the face of adversity. Forced AA, as much as you dislike it,

is no reason to compromise one's integrity. A person may have no

respect for AA but acting disrespectfully is not the only option.

>

> Nate

>

---------------

Well, first of all, you were defending AA's " traditions " and

additionally making the incorrect assumption that people who are

court-ordered don't really " have a desire to stop drinking " .

Secondly, you apparently have a far different notion than I do

about what it means to " compromise one's integrity " . Some of us believe

that pretending to approve (even if by silent acquiescence) of an odious

activity forced on us illegally, is what would compromise our integrity.

Do you also think it is " disrespectful " to remain seated and ignore

those who stand, hold hands, and recite the " Lord's Prayer " at the end

of meetings? Cause that's sure what I did. I had absolutely no

intention of compromising my Jewish integrity by participating in any

manner at all with that prayer.

I still maintain that it is not incumbent on me to have any shame

over what AA people might think of me -- I don't want anything to do

with them, and I made it clear during my forced exposure.

~Rita

[Guest guest]

Not sure what your conversation is about - let me say, however, one's

constitutional rights are stomped upon when we all know AA has become a

booming business. What a great investment today - for Dr.'s and lawyers,

judges etc, to open more 12 step program live-in 'sanctuaries " If I didn't

have a conscience - I'd invest myself. inoj

Re: (Nate) Afraid Anonamous

>

> >

> > Why do you think I'm defending AA? I'm talking about personal

> dignity in the face of adversity. Forced AA, as much as you dislike it,

> is no reason to compromise one's integrity. A person may have no

> respect for AA but acting disrespectfully is not the only option.

> >

> > Nate

> >

> ---------------

>

> Well, first of all, you were defending AA's " traditions " and

> additionally making the incorrect assumption that people who are

> court-ordered don't really " have a desire to stop drinking " .

>

> Secondly, you apparently have a far different notion than I do

> about what it means to " compromise one's integrity " . Some of us believe

> that pretending to approve (even if by silent acquiescence) of an odious

> activity forced on us illegally, is what would compromise our integrity.

>

> Do you also think it is " disrespectful " to remain seated and ignore

> those who stand, hold hands, and recite the " Lord's Prayer " at the end

> of meetings? Cause that's sure what I did. I had absolutely no

> intention of compromising my Jewish integrity by participating in any

> manner at all with that prayer.

>

> I still maintain that it is not incumbent on me to have any shame

> over what AA people might think of me -- I don't want anything to do

> with them, and I made it clear during my forced exposure.

>

> ~Rita

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey All,

Who today would believe that the earth is flat? Seems ridiculous doesn't it? Well, the earth is absolutely flat is some places. Can we extrapolate an entire scientific theory regarding gravity, space, time or anything else beyond the accidental nature of recurring randomness? Nah. So XA is not 100% wrong. Neither is the bibble(sic), Bush(or is it BUSCH), my mother, any three year old child, scrathch off ticket, or horse with the ability(trained) to count.

We have to look at the origin of XA, it's intent, it's method of achieving it's intended purpose, and the actual result. In the end, the result in itself alone states the value of all preceeding values.

nuff fer now

Steve

[Guest guest]

Re: (Nate) Afraid Anonamous

Rita-

When you realize that AA is not 100% wrong and 12-Step-Free is not 100% right you will have gained a valuable perspective. You believe you had the AA experience. You did not. You had your AA experience. There is a world out there that has nothing to do with being forced to attend AA meetings.

Would you like to hear a little bit of reality? I didn't say truth. I didn't say fact. I said reality.1. Cult is a relative term used by those who don't agree.

2. Those forced into AA wouldn't have been there in the first place if they'd had their act together.

3, If they do get their act together they won't have anymore problems.

4. Government abuses its power, always. Sometimes its just your turn.

5. There are worse things than being forced to attend AA. Put it in perspective.

6. Fair is a place you show a pig.

7. I can believe the above and not be a Stepper, however convenient that classification might be.

> > Why do you think I'm defending AA? I'm talking about personaldignity in the face of adversity. Forced AA, as much as you dislike it,is no reason to compromise one's integrity. A person may have norespect for AA but acting disrespectfully is not the only option.> > Nate> --------------- Well, first of all, you were defending AA's "traditions" andadditionally making the incorrect assumption that people who arecourt-ordered don't really "have a desire to stop drinking". Secondly, you apparently have a far different notion than I doabout what it means to "compromise one's integrity". Some of us believethat pretending to approve (even if by silent acquiescence) of an odiousactivity forced on us illegally, is what would compromise our integrity. Do you also think it is "disrespectful" to remain seated and ignorethose who stand, hold hands, and recite the "Lord's Prayer" at the endof meetings? Cause that's sure what I did. I had absolutely nointention of compromising my Jewish integrity by participating in anymanner at all with that prayer. I still maintain that it is not incumbent on me to have any shameover what AA people might think of me -- I don't want anything to dowith them, and I made it clear during my forced exposure.~Rita

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Rita-

>  

> When you realize that AA is not 100% wrong and 12-Step-Free is not 100%

> right you will have gained a valuable perspective.  You believe you had the AA

> experience.  You did not.  You had your AA experience.  There is a world out

> there that has nothing to do with being forced to attend AA meetings.

 

Nate,

What does this mean? Certainly there is a world of out there that has

nothing to do with forced AA attendance and coerced " internalization of

spiritual values, " however, the step groups are encroaching on that area

at an ever increasing rate.

> Would you like to hear a little bit of reality?  I didn't say truth.  I

> didn't say fact.  I said reality.

> 1.  Cult is a relative term used by those who don't agree.

The term cult is used by a lot of people for a lot of different

reasons, some derogatory, some not. My use of the term certainly is

derogatory and is based in their use of deception in their recruiting

techniques and a firm conviction that the ends justify the means.

> 2.  Those forced into AA wouldn't have been there in the first place if

> they'd had their act together. 

This is " blame the victim " nonsense. Are you also suggesting that

criticism of Chinese Communist re-education should be deflected onto the

people coerced into it?

> 3,  If they do get their act together they won't have anymore problems.

This is simply untrue unless. I know a number of people who have

" gotten their act together " and simply for not " internalizing spiritual

principles " or for not joining AA lose their jobs, medical care or civil

liberties.

> 4.  Government abuses its power, always.  Sometimes its just your turn.

So we should all practice Acceptance, just sit quietly in prayer on a

mountain top as the our civil liberties and freedom are raped and

pillaged?

> 5.  There are worse things than being forced to attend AA.  Put it in

> perspective. 

And there are worse things than murder, like torture and then murder so

we should spare everyone from denouncing murder because there are worse

things than murder? One to two million people a year are being coerced

into adopting a totalitarian belief system in the U.S. How is that for

perspective?

> 6.  Fair is a place you show a pig.

Certainly, life isn't fair. However, when you throw out any attempts

at things like " justice " and " equality " and " the right to life, liberty

and the pursuit of happiness " it is hardly a perscription for anything

other than dictatorship.

> 7.   I can believe the above and not be a Stepper, however convenient

> that classification might be.

Well, someone who has scorn and contempt for civil liberties, a

totalitarian by any other name . . .

Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

At 10:23 AM 12/10/00 -0800, lhl@... wrote:

><When you realize that AA is not 100% wrong and 12-Step-Free is not 100%

>right you will have gained a valuable perspective.>

>

>I would perhaps agree that AA is not 100% wrong but I can find no evidence

>to support that statement. I would very much like to see some.

>

>Larry

I've said this before in relation to AA, but I wouldn't consider this

comparison to be an improvement over 100% wrong:

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

Hello Ken.

Maybe this thread has something with perspectives to do. From one perspective

one

could say that AA did some good the same way the Nazis did.

In Germany a lot of people felt much better about themselves, and this may have

made

many reduce their alcohol intake. Secondly the trains were on schedule, workers

got

vacations in the Mediterranean, cheap cars were built and there was a lot of

attention about health issues.

What a perspective do we use on XA? If you have known a person that got

miserable and

then saved his life through AA, is AA then doing something good? It might have

been a

very good friend, and you had really lost all hope for him.

But stories like that does not disturb my informed conviction that tells me,

that AA

is good in the same sense the Nazis were good.

AA is started on a lie, and therefore they'll not set anybody free. When I think

of

AA I often think of Buchman, the preacher man that was so dedicated to his

work

that he insisted on sleeping in the dormitory of the male theological students.

Then

he liked to talk f2f with them, concentrating on the personal sins, like

masturbation. He hailed Hitler, and thought a God reigned dictatorship would

save the

world.

How could this completely sick and perverted starting point lead to a general

good

for humanity? But I'm all ears. Please, Nate, come with an explanation that's

not a

derivation of the first mistake.

Does a mistake get more acceptable if it gets bigger? Yes, for some!

Bjørn

Ken wrote:

> >

> >

> > Rita-

> >

> > When you realize that AA is not 100% wrong and 12-Step-Free is not

100%

> > right you will have gained a valuable perspective. You believe you had the

AA

> > experience. You did not. You had your AA experience. There is a world out

> > there that has nothing to do with being forced to attend AA meetings.

>

> Nate,

>

> What does this mean? Certainly there is a world of out there that has

> nothing to do with forced AA attendance and coerced " internalization of

> spiritual values, " however, the step groups are encroaching on that area

> at an ever increasing rate.

>

> > Would you like to hear a little bit of reality? I didn't say truth.

I

> > didn't say fact. I said reality.

> > 1. Cult is a relative term used by those who don't agree.

>

> The term cult is used by a lot of people for a lot of different

> reasons, some derogatory, some not. My use of the term certainly is

> derogatory and is based in their use of deception in their recruiting

> techniques and a firm conviction that the ends justify the means.

>

> > 2. Those forced into AA wouldn't have been there in the first place

if

> > they'd had their act together.

>

> This is " blame the victim " nonsense. Are you also suggesting that

> criticism of Chinese Communist re-education should be deflected onto the

> people coerced into it?

>

> > 3, If they do get their act together they won't have anymore

problems.

>

> This is simply untrue unless. I know a number of people who have

> " gotten their act together " and simply for not " internalizing spiritual

> principles " or for not joining AA lose their jobs, medical care or civil

> liberties.

>

> > 4. Government abuses its power, always. Sometimes its just your

turn.

>

> So we should all practice Acceptance, just sit quietly in prayer on a

> mountain top as the our civil liberties and freedom are raped and

> pillaged?

>

> > 5. There are worse things than being forced to attend AA. Put it in

> > perspective.

>

> And there are worse things than murder, like torture and then murder

so

> we should spare everyone from denouncing murder because there are worse

> things than murder? One to two million people a year are being coerced

> into adopting a totalitarian belief system in the U.S. How is that for

> perspective?

>

> > 6. Fair is a place you show a pig.

>

> Certainly, life isn't fair. However, when you throw out any attempts

> at things like " justice " and " equality " and " the right to life, liberty

> and the pursuit of happiness " it is hardly a perscription for anything

> other than dictatorship.

>

> > 7. I can believe the above and not be a Stepper, however convenient

> > that classification might be.

>

> Well, someone who has scorn and contempt for civil liberties, a

> totalitarian by any other name . . .

>

> Ken Ragge

>

[Guest guest]

Bjørn Herring wrote:

>

> Hello Ken.

>

> Maybe this thread has something with perspectives to do. From one

> perspective one could say that AA did some good the same way the Nazis did.

>

> In Germany a lot of people felt much better about themselves, and this may

have

> made many reduce their alcohol intake. Secondly the trains were on schedule,

> workers got vacations in the Mediterranean, cheap cars were built and there

was

> a lot of attention about health issues.

>

Bjørn,

Twenty five years ago I worked with a guy who grew up in Nazi Germany.

When I asked him about how he could continue hold the same views as when

he was a child in Hitler's Germany after all the revelations that came

out about the death camps, his response was, " You don't understand. "

That was an understatement.

There is something about being part of something " bigger than oneself, "

part of " the herd. "

> What a perspective do we use on XA? If you have known a person that got

> miserable and then saved his life through AA, is AA then doing something good?

> It might have been a very good friend, and you had really lost all hope for

> him.

>

> But stories like that does not disturb my informed conviction that tells me,

> that AA is good in the same sense the Nazis were good.

>

As a matter of fact, it was _very_ difficult to criticize the National

Socialist Party because they were so busy doing good deeds in 30s

Germany. How can one criticize those who are so selflessly helpful in

solving social problems?

> AA is started on a lie, and therefore they'll not set anybody free. When I

> think of AA I often think of Buchman, the preacher man that was so

> dedicated to his work that he insisted on sleeping in the dormitory of the

male

> theological students. Then he liked to talk f2f with them, concentrating on

the

> personal sins, like masturbation. He hailed Hitler, and thought a God reigned

> dictatorship would save the world.

>

Two things have really struck me concerning the steps and sex. One was

a post on one of the Usenet newsgroups for sex addiction from a teenage

boy who was having a problem with overcoming his disease -- he would

wake in the morning with an erection and couldn't stop it. What was most

shocking that _not one_ person responded from the position that that was

perfectly normal and healthy, although he did get plenty of advice.

The other was a recent cover story on the local Metro weekly newspaper

on a group of homosexuals " in recovery. " Essentially, the cure in their

claimed 50% cure rate was defined as " getting married and having

children. " Pity the poor wives who end up having a passionless

marriage.

If this was somewhere in the Fundamentalist Bible Belt, it would be a

different matter -- it would be to be expected. However, this is from

the capital of " liberalism " in the U.S. It seems Buchman is alive

and well in the very heart of American liberalism.

This is reminiscent of the leader of the Swedish Communist party going

into " treatment " and coming out proclaiming her finding of God.

> How could this completely sick and perverted starting point lead to a general

> good for humanity? But I'm all ears. Please, Nate, come with an explanation

> that's not a derivation of the first mistake.

> Does a mistake get more acceptable if it gets bigger? Yes, for some!

>

Wasn't it Hitler himself that said something about if the lie is big

enough . . .?

Ken Ragge

> Bjørn

>

[Guest guest]

sparkydawg69@... wrote:

>

> Hey All,

>

> Who today would believe that the earth is flat? Seems ridiculous

> doesn't it?

> Well, the earth is absolutely flat is some places. Can we extrapolate

> an

> entire scientific theory regarding  gravity, space, time or anything

> else

> beyond the accidental nature of recurring randomness? Nah. So XA is

> not 100%

> wrong. Neither is the bibble(sic), Bush(or is it BUSCH), my

> mother,

> any three year old child, scrathch off ticket, or horse with the

> ability(trained) to count.

>

> We have to look at the origin of XA, it's intent, it's method of

> achieving

> it's intended purpose, and the actual result. In the end, the result

> in

> itself alone states the value of all preceeding values.

>

> nuff fer now

>

> Steve

>

Steve,

Actually, not enough has been said. For the origin of XA and it's

intent, take a look at: http://www.aakills.com/books/revealed.htm . For

a glimpse of the techniques used in meetings to achieve their ends, take

a look at: http://www.aakills.com/books/meetings.htm .

And what are the results? From Harvard psychiatrist, alcoholism

researcher and AA board member's own research, only about 5% manage to

remain abstinent in AA and the sizeable chunk of those who would have

moderated are totally obliterated. He found it worse that no treatment

whatsoever, as has every methodologically sound study of AA.

Of course, the intent is getting people to live in accordance with God's

plan, God being defined as God as the Oxford Groupers understood Him.

Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

Re: (Nate) Afraid Anonamous

Steve- Point well taken. I began with your specific case and then went to a more general look when trading posts with Rita.

Nate

In response I'd will say that you dont know me at all, whether I have my shit together or not. I do and did. In contrast, my former parole officer who chose to file a parole violation on me for consuming alcohol, was, at the time, buying cocain from my x-girlfriend. Not switching blame, just putting some context to the situation for you. Also, many people here in VT are forced to attend these XA groups as a catch all just to document quotas to get funding from the federal government. nuff said Steve

[Guest guest]

Hi Ken

Wasn't it Hitler himself that said something about if the lie is big

enough . . .?

Ken Ragge

It think it was Goebbels stating that repeating a lie enough times

would make it at truth. But of course the aim is to get it bigger in the

process.

Actually I think the brains behind AA, and they must have some, know

it's a lie, and that's the reason they are pushing it so hard.

Therefore there are a lot of individual tales to be told.

Bjørn

[Guest guest]

Larry-

The number we're talking about is a full 100%. The steppism mentality is one of absolutes, the avoidance of which is the perspective I'm talking about. AA would say, and I agree, that if you don't drive drunk you won't get arrested for DUI. Now we're down to 99.9999%.

Nate

(Nate) Afraid Anonamous

<When you realize that AA is not 100% wrong and 12-Step-Free is not 100%right you will have gained a valuable perspective.>I would perhaps agree that AA is not 100% wrong but I can find no evidenceto support that statement. I would very much like to see some.Larry

[Guest guest]

> Larry-

>  

> The number we're talking about is a full 100%. The steppism mentality is one

of absolutes, the avoidance of which is the perspective I'm

> talking about.  AA would say, and I agree, that if you don't drive drunk you

won't get arrested for DUI.  Now we're down to 99.9999%. 

>  

>  

> Nate

Nate,

Actually, AAs would at the very least " suggest " that you can't not drive

drunk if you drink at all, and that it is highly unlikely (the miracle

won't happen) unless you go to meetings, work the steps, etc., etc.

Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

Come on Nate.

You can do better than that. Are you just following your own anal discussion

mode, or can't you see the forest for the trees. If you pretend to participate

in a discussion it would be helpful if you at least responded to some of

the major objections. But you obviously prefer to pick shit out of your

own arse.

Bjørn

Nate s wrote:

Larry- The

number we're talking about is a full 100%. The steppism mentality is one

of absolutes, the avoidance of which is the perspective I'm talking about.

AA would say, and I agree, that if you don't drive drunk you won't get

arrested for DUI. Now we're down to 99.9999%. Nate

(Nate) Afraid

Anonamous

<When you realize that AA is not 100% wrong and 12-Step-Free

is not 100%

right you will have gained a valuable perspective.>

I would perhaps agree that AA is not 100% wrong but I can find no

evidence

to support that statement. I would very much like to see some.

Larry

[Guest guest]

Bjorn-

For the record it was you who introduced the Nazis and young theological students masturbating. This was a logical escalation of Ken's post where he suggested I agree with Chinese Communist indoctrination. I might mention Vlad the Impaler or the Khmer Rouge but I'll leave you and Ken with free reign concerning serial killers from Wisconsin and all deviant sexual practices.

Bjorn- I've always admired your posts for being well thought out and intelligent. What happened?

Nate

Re: (Nate) Afraid Anonamous

Hello Ken.Maybe this thread has something with perspectives to do. From one perspective onecould say that AA did some good the same way the Nazis did.In Germany a lot of people felt much better about themselves, and this may have mademany reduce their alcohol intake. Secondly the trains were on schedule, workers gotvacations in the Mediterranean, cheap cars were built and there was a lot ofattention about health issues.What a perspective do we use on XA? If you have known a person that got miserable andthen saved his life through AA, is AA then doing something good? It might have been avery good friend, and you had really lost all hope for him.But stories like that does not disturb my informed conviction that tells me, that AAis good in the same sense the Nazis were good.AA is started on a lie, and therefore they'll not set anybody free. When I think ofAA I often think of Buchman, the preacher man that was so dedicated to his workthat he insisted on sleeping in the dormitory of the male theological students. Thenhe liked to talk f2f with them, concentrating on the personal sins, likemasturbation. He hailed Hitler, and thought a God reigned dictatorship would save theworld.How could this completely sick and perverted starting point lead to a general goodfor humanity? But I'm all ears. Please, Nate, come with an explanation that's not aderivation of the first mistake.Does a mistake get more acceptable if it gets bigger? Yes, for some!BjørnKen wrote:> > > >> > Rita-> >> > When you realize that AA is not 100% wrong and 12-Step-Free is not 100%> > right you will have gained a valuable perspective. You believe you had the AA> > experience. You did not. You had your AA experience. There is a world out> > there that has nothing to do with being forced to attend AA meetings.>> Nate,>> What does this mean? Certainly there is a world of out there that has> nothing to do with forced AA attendance and coerced "internalization of> spiritual values," however, the step groups are encroaching on that area> at an ever increasing rate.>> > Would you like to hear a little bit of reality? I didn't say truth. I> > didn't say fact. I said reality.> > 1. Cult is a relative term used by those who don't agree.>> The term cult is used by a lot of people for a lot of different> reasons, some derogatory, some not. My use of the term certainly is> derogatory and is based in their use of deception in their recruiting> techniques and a firm conviction that the ends justify the means.>> > 2. Those forced into AA wouldn't have been there in the first place if> > they'd had their act together.>> This is "blame the victim" nonsense. Are you also suggesting that> criticism of Chinese Communist re-education should be deflected onto the> people coerced into it?>> > 3, If they do get their act together they won't have anymore problems.>> This is simply untrue unless. I know a number of people who have> "gotten their act together" and simply for not "internalizing spiritual> principles" or for not joining AA lose their jobs, medical care or civil> liberties.>> > 4. Government abuses its power, always. Sometimes its just your turn.>> So we should all practice Acceptance, just sit quietly in prayer on a> mountain top as the our civil liberties and freedom are raped and> pillaged?>> > 5. There are worse things than being forced to attend AA. Put it in> > perspective.>> And there are worse things than murder, like torture and then murder so> we should spare everyone from denouncing murder because there are worse> things than murder? One to two million people a year are being coerced> into adopting a totalitarian belief system in the U.S. How is that for> perspective?>> > 6. Fair is a place you show a pig.>> Certainly, life isn't fair. However, when you throw out any attempts> at things like "justice" and "equality" and "the right to life, liberty> and the pursuit of happiness" it is hardly a perscription for anything> other than dictatorship.>> > 7. I can believe the above and not be a Stepper, however convenient> > that classification might be.>> Well, someone who has scorn and contempt for civil liberties, a> totalitarian by any other name . . .>> Ken Ragge>

[Guest guest]

Bjorn- I've always admired your posts for being well thought out and intelligent. What happened?

Nate

I just don't think you're responding, but dodging. I'll listen to

your arguments, but it requires that you listen to mine or others. Otherwise

it's no discussion.

So, let's take it from the start. What good news have XA for the world?

Bjørn

[Guest guest]

>

> Bjorn-

>  

> For the record it was you who introduced the Nazis and young theological

> students masturbating. 

Nate,

Actually, it was Bill , Dr. Bob and Ebby Thatcher's spiritual

grouper leader Buchman who introduced the Nazis and zeal at

coercing confessions of masturbation out of young men. He got thrown off

the campus at Princeton for it.

> This was a logical escalation of Ken's

> post where he suggested I agree with Chinese Communist indoctrination. 

I asked you a question which you didn't answer. Here is the question

again.

___________________________

You wrote:

> 2.  Those forced into AA wouldn't have been there in the first place if

> they'd had their act together. 

I asked:

This is " blame the victim " nonsense. Are you also suggesting

that

criticism of Chinese Communist re-education should be deflected onto the

people coerced into it?

____________________________

Ken Ragge

> I

> might mention Vlad the Impaler or the Khmer Rouge but I'll

> leave you and Ken with free reign concerning serial killers from Wisconsin and

> all deviant sexual practices.

>  

> Bjorn-    I've always admired your posts for being well thought out and

intelligent. What happened?

>  

> Nate

[Guest guest]

Ken-I

I'm sorry I committed the felony of not believing this list isn't 100% right

100% of the time.

It has always been my opinion that AA was a revolution gone wrong. AA's

problem is now that they began with a wrong premise, many great movements

started out with worse ideas. It's great sin is that they never created a

mechanism for self-examination. Nobody in AA has ever asked if they're

right or if they can do better. Nobody ever really looks at the stats and

says, " Okay, we're at 5%. Let's see if we can't hit 6 within 10 years. "

And of course they attack anything or person who might ask the questions

they don't.

Don't make the same mistake of attacking blindly anyone who questions the

status quo, and there is a status quo here. We're fighting monsters. It's

very important we don't become monsters in the process.

Nate

Re: (Nate) Afraid Anonamous

> >

> >

> > Rita-

> >

> > When you realize that AA is not 100% wrong and 12-Step-Free is

not 100%

> > right you will have gained a valuable perspective. You believe you had

the AA

> > experience. You did not. You had your AA experience. There is a world

out

> > there that has nothing to do with being forced to attend AA meetings.

>

> Nate,

>

> What does this mean? Certainly there is a world of out there that has

> nothing to do with forced AA attendance and coerced " internalization of

> spiritual values, " however, the step groups are encroaching on that area

> at an ever increasing rate.

>

> > Would you like to hear a little bit of reality? I didn't say

truth. I

> > didn't say fact. I said reality.

> > 1. Cult is a relative term used by those who don't agree.

>

> The term cult is used by a lot of people for a lot of different

> reasons, some derogatory, some not. My use of the term certainly is

> derogatory and is based in their use of deception in their recruiting

> techniques and a firm conviction that the ends justify the means.

>

> > 2. Those forced into AA wouldn't have been there in the first

place if

> > they'd had their act together.

>

> This is " blame the victim " nonsense. Are you also suggesting that

> criticism of Chinese Communist re-education should be deflected onto the

> people coerced into it?

>

>

> > 3, If they do get their act together they won't have anymore

problems.

>

> This is simply untrue unless. I know a number of people who have

> " gotten their act together " and simply for not " internalizing spiritual

> principles " or for not joining AA lose their jobs, medical care or civil

> liberties.

>

> > 4. Government abuses its power, always. Sometimes its just your

turn.

>

> So we should all practice Acceptance, just sit quietly in prayer on a

> mountain top as the our civil liberties and freedom are raped and

> pillaged?

>

> > 5. There are worse things than being forced to attend AA. Put it

in

> > perspective.

>

> And there are worse things than murder, like torture and then murder so

> we should spare everyone from denouncing murder because there are worse

> things than murder? One to two million people a year are being coerced

> into adopting a totalitarian belief system in the U.S. How is that for

> perspective?

>

> > 6. Fair is a place you show a pig.

>

> Certainly, life isn't fair. However, when you throw out any attempts

> at things like " justice " and " equality " and " the right to life, liberty

> and the pursuit of happiness " it is hardly a perscription for anything

> other than dictatorship.

>

> > 7. I can believe the above and not be a Stepper, however

convenient

> > that classification might be.

>

> Well, someone who has scorn and contempt for civil liberties, a

> totalitarian by any other name . . .

>

> Ken Ragge

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bjorn-

I never said XA has good news for the world. That's apparently what your mind heard when it encountered something it didn't agree with. I said they're not 100% wrong which seems to push the "attack" button inside your head. Why am a Step-Nazi for showing a little dissent?

Nate

Re: (Nate) Afraid Anonamous

Bjorn- I've always admired your posts for being well thought out and intelligent. What happened?

Nate

I just don't think you're responding, but dodging. I'll listen to your arguments, but it requires that you listen to mine or others. Otherwise it's no discussion. So, let's take it from the start. What good news have XA for the world? Bjørn

[Guest guest]

Ken- That may be right. It was Bjorn, however, who introduced it in a (not

so) subtle reference to my post.

And I will anser your question. Thank you for reminding me.

No

Nate

Re: (Nate) Afraid Anonamous

> >

> > Bjorn-

> >

> > For the record it was you who introduced the Nazis and young theological

> > students masturbating.

>

> Nate,

>

> Actually, it was Bill , Dr. Bob and Ebby Thatcher's spiritual

> grouper leader Buchman who introduced the Nazis and zeal at

> coercing confessions of masturbation out of young men. He got thrown off

> the campus at Princeton for it.

>

> > This was a logical escalation of Ken's

> > post where he suggested I agree with Chinese Communist indoctrination.

>

> I asked you a question which you didn't answer. Here is the question

> again.

>

> ___________________________

> You wrote:

>

> > 2. Those forced into AA wouldn't have been there in the first

place if

> > they'd had their act together.

>

> I asked:

>

> This is " blame the victim " nonsense. Are you also suggesting

> that

> criticism of Chinese Communist re-education should be deflected onto the

> people coerced into it?

> ____________________________

>

>

> Ken Ragge

>

> > I

> > might mention Vlad the Impaler or the Khmer Rouge but I'll

> > leave you and Ken with free reign concerning serial killers from

Wisconsin and

> > all deviant sexual practices.

> >

> > Bjorn- I've always admired your posts for being well thought out and

intelligent. What happened?

> >

> > Nate

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nate.

Honestly I never thought of you as a step Nazi. I just compared the

deeds of AA and the Nazis as being of the same nature, which I related

to perspective.

But you insisted on that they were not 100% wrong, which I think is

a rather scholastic issue. Like the medieval discussion about how many

angels there could be on a needle point when angels had no extension. Tricky,

isn't it?

What I do think could be interesting to discuss is your statement that

AA represents a revolution that went wrong. Does this mean that it was

right from the start, but was lead astray, or that XA developed into it's

present shape as a result of it's origin? I think the latter. The more

I've got into the matter, I can only see a logical development, but you

can obviously see a break from the right path. This might be the real center

of your 'not 100% faulty' position?!

Anyway, I think it could be interesting to exchange views on this.

Bjørn

Nate s wrote:

Bjorn- I

never said XA has good news for the world. That's apparently what

your mind heard when it encountered something it didn't agree with.

I said they're not 100% wrong which seems to push the "attack" button inside

your head. Why am a Step-Nazi for showing a little dissent? Nate

Re: (Nate)

Afraid Anonamous

Bjorn- I've always admired your posts for being well thought out and intelligent. What happened?

Nate

I just don't think you're responding, but dodging. I'll listen to

your arguments, but it requires that you listen to mine or others. Otherwise

it's no discussion.

So, let's take it from the start. What good news have XA for the world?

Bjørn

[Guest guest]

Bjorn-

:

A while ago I was at the Rational Recovery site (that's www.rational.org for anyone who might be interested.) Stanton Peele tells people not to buy The Small Book because it's out of date. He says simply that he learned more so he wrote a better book. This is what AA never did. It never tried to build a better mousetrap.

What was revolutionary about AA is that the solution to an alcohol problem can be packaged and communicated. Tragically, the product is a bad one. I've always thought that the goal of any system, book, or group that truly wants to solve an alcohol problem should be to work itself out of a job, to solve the problem so efficiently that they are no longer necessary. This is what AA never did. AA never asked itself how it could improve. It failed to evolve because it didn't try to evolve. What it did instead is follow the old lawyer's trick of "If you have the facts pound the facts; if you don't have the facts, pound the table." From that follows everything talked about here at 12-step-free.

At my web site www.sobrietyfrontiers.com I compare AA to the very outdated medical technique of bloodletting. The man who watched the blood flow out of his body must have at some point in the precedure wondered if there wasn't a better way of doing things than this barbarian procedure. I don't have documentation but I'd bet my last dollar that there were doctors out there bleeding people long after mainstream medicine dropped it.

Nate

Re: (Nate) Afraid Anonamous Bjorn- I've always admired your posts for being well thought out and intelligent. What happened?

Nate

I just don't think you're responding, but dodging. I'll listen to your arguments, but it requires that you listen to mine or others. Otherwise it's no discussion. So, let's take it from the start. What good news have XA for the world? Bjørn

[Guest guest]

> 3, If they do get their act together they won't have anymore

problems.

This is simply not true. When I dropped out of treatment on December

31, 1985, I did not drink one drop for the rest of my time in the

Coast Guard. I was discharged on September 15, 1986. I was tormented

and then kicked out for resisting the 12-step cult, not for drinking.

When I returned to my duty station after dropping out of treatment, I

was in BIG TROUBLE, not for drinking but for resisting the cult, not

to mention Dr. Becky L. Gill's lies about me. Those who force people

into AA against their will are wicked people and will lie, lie, lie if

you resist them.

This is not rare. The one case that comes to mind is:

http://rational.org/Drug%20Court.html

[Guest guest]

Nate, I think I see where you are coming from!? I do agree on at

least one point 5 :-) The problem as I see is that there can be a

scary degree of commonality between extremists in either camp.

Both seem to be prepared to fight to the last drop of blood for

their principles - unfortunately sometimes at the expense of some

(possibly?) active addict or drunk :-(

But, we were talking about someone who " giggles uncontrollably "

at AA meetings? I'd characterise that as simply rather an *odd*

but presumably effective way of dealing with bit of anxiety(?).

I do feel a degree of dignity in passive resitance has it's merit.

As a rather extreme example one could consider people ordered to

dig their own graves, prior to execution. I think many of them

" cooperated " too - but it was perhaps in preserving a last vestige

of dignity, even in anonymity, that (IMO) they emerged winners.

But he gets negative attention at AA and positive attention here

plus a few legal " tricks of the trade " to help with his " negative

interaction with the legal system " . <wince> Customer exits happy.

Sometimes I worry though...

Mack.

> Rita-

>

> When you realize that AA is not 100% wrong and 12-Step-Free is

not 100% right you will have gained a valuable perspective. You

believe you had the AA experience. You did not. You had your AA

experience. There is a world out there that has nothing to do with

being forced to attend AA meetings.

>

> Would you like to hear a little bit of reality? I didn't say

truth. I didn't say fact. I said reality.

> 1. Cult is a relative term used by those who don't agree.

> 2. Those forced into AA wouldn't have been there in the first

place if they'd had their act together.

> 3, If they do get their act together they won't have anymore

problems.

> 4. Government abuses its power, always. Sometimes its just your

turn.

> 5. There are worse things than being forced to attend AA. Put

it in perspective.

> 6. Fair is a place you show a pig.

> 7. I can believe the above and not be a Stepper, however

convenient that classification might be.

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Why do you think I'm defending AA? I'm talking about personal

> dignity in the face of adversity. Forced AA, as much as you

dislike it,

> is no reason to compromise one's integrity. A person may have no

> respect for AA but acting disrespectfully is not the only option.

> >

> > Nate

> >

> ---------------

>

> Well, first of all, you were defending AA's " traditions " and

> additionally making the incorrect assumption that people who are

> court-ordered don't really " have a desire to stop drinking " .

>

> Secondly, you apparently have a far different notion than I

do

> about what it means to " compromise one's integrity " . Some of us

believe

> that pretending to approve (even if by silent acquiescence) of an

odious

> activity forced on us illegally, is what would compromise our

integrity.

>

> Do you also think it is " disrespectful " to remain seated and

ignore

> those who stand, hold hands, and recite the " Lord's Prayer " at

the end

> of meetings? Cause that's sure what I did. I had absolutely no

> intention of compromising my Jewish integrity by participating in

any

> manner at all with that prayer.

>

> I still maintain that it is not incumbent on me to have any

shame

> over what AA people might think of me -- I don't want anything to

do

> with them, and I made it clear during my forced exposure.

>

> ~Rita

>

>

>

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