Re: is this part of thyroid problem?

October 19, 2004

my point is that i did! LOL

then i decided it was really not going to help me feel any better and

would in fact help make EVERYONE feel worse. so i had to stop.

>

> In a message dated 10/19/2004 3:12:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> 420@... writes:

>

>> because yelling and screaming are the result of behaviour

>> when a person reaches the end point of their tolerance levels as a

>> result of their illness. but it isn't caused by their illness. an

>> alternative would be to leave the room. she's still capable of that.

>>

>

> and she might be. not everyone...dependent upon the stage of their

> illness...would be. i think maybe you never got to this stage?

> Cindi

>

October 19, 2004

In a message dated 10/19/2004 8:16:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,

tayamni@... writes:

> The one sure thing about endocrine diseases is that we each experience its

> manifestations in a very individual way. There are thousands of symptoms to

> be experienced in thousands of ways and variations

wow - you said this well. I totally agree with you. What was my worst point

is different than yours and different from Baron's, etc. etc. Some of us may

share similar experiences...but everyone has their own set of individual

symptoms.

Cindi

October 19, 2004

sorry but i really, heavily disagree here. you may not have been aware

of the situation that was created, but that doesn't mean no one else

can be aware. it could be different degrees of sensitivity, or how

much is going on and how much isn't, etc., but i don't knock off my

thyroid as the reason why i was unaware in the beginning, and that

somehow the condition changed and suddenly i was aware.

people engage in all sorts of behaviour without being aware of it for

some time. we're creatures of habit and that's how we're programmed to

work. the revelation of that didn't have anything to do with my

thyroid condition. couples WITHOUT thyroid or any disease in them go

through the same things.

>

> In a message dated 10/19/2004 4:09:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> 420@... writes:

>

>> then i decided it was really not going to help me feel any better and

>> would in fact help make EVERYONE feel worse

>

> but i don't think you did. cause at the stage i'm talking about...i

> had no

> conception that i was even causing that much distress to my husband.

> i really

> thought he was the problem...or whatever the particular stressor was.

> You get

> to a point where you cannot handle any everyday normal stressors. You

> can

> NOT cope because your body does not have what it was designed to have

> to cope.

> so it becomes an impossible task...and it's not your fault. It really

> is the

> disease.

> Cindi

>

October 19, 2004

nc2406@... wrote:

>>

>

>and she might be. not everyone...dependent upon the stage of their

>illness...would be. i think maybe you never got to this stage?

>

i have certainly been in sheer rages -smashing things, kicking walls

etc not my normsal way of acting by any means -very like being a

toddler and there is absolutely no way of being able to step outside or

leave the room.

If i was a naturally uncontrolled/violent person i might well have been

violent to other people beyond verbal violence.

--

Alison

http://www.alisonashwell.com

new work uploaded

http://www.artwanted/alisonashwell

October 19, 2004

baron chat wrote:

>that is an effect of long, untreated hypothyroidism. syphilis has that

>same effect, if long untreated. is syphilis a brain disease? i don't

>think so.

>

Actually tertiary syphilis is considered a brain disease.

--

Alison

http://www.alisonashwell.com

new work uploaded

http://www.artwanted/alisonashwell

October 19, 2004

cindi, maybe you missed it, but i stated clearly in response to you

earlier that i WAS out of control. that means my behaviour was getting

bad, i was moody, impatient, raised my voice.

and i took stock of the fact that it was making things worse, and i

decided that while i'm sure it had a lot to do with my illness, i don't

think my thyroid is forcing me into behaviour that's making me or my

wife unhappy, so i caught it.

your position then, was to tell me that maybe that's a sign that i

never was at that stage of hypothyroidism, because had i been in it, i

would not have had the capability to do something about my behaviour.

and that is simply untrue, and i disagree with it.

if one were to accept your argument, that under a certain point, a

hypothyroid patient has no control over their behaviour, then one would

have to accept that violence and even murder would have been beyond

their control and therefore they should not be held responsible for

their actions.

>

> In a message dated 10/19/2004 5:04:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> 420@... writes:

>

>> then why do you keep insisting that you know MY EXPERIENCE, because

>> that's what you've been trying to do?

>>

>

> baron...i have no idea what your experience was...but you obviously

> never

> were out of control according to you. but if you think you were out of

> control...but yet remained in control...I'm not going to argue with

> you.

> Cindi

>

October 19, 2004

i'm not angry at all--i'm just finding it difficult to get across to

you that i was able to make choices where my behaviour was concerned,

when you seem to insist that this was only possible because i didn't

suffer hypothyroid as badly as you or some.

as for hypothyroid being a disease of the brain, you might believe it,

but that doesn't make it true. a disease that affects your moods or

your functions does not automatically become a brain disease. there

are a good many hormonal, metabolic, bacterial and viral conditions

that eventually affect brain function in very similar ways if

untreated. those are not diseases of the brain either.

that aside, this is an interesting discussion.

>

> In a message dated 10/19/2004 5:04:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> 420@... writes:

>

>> i didn't disagree FOR you, but if you're so hung up on your very own

>> personal experience, maybe you shouldn't be ascribing it to someone

>> else's, either, mine or the original poster's.

>>

>

> why are you angry? Because I say that some folks can not control their

> behavior when they're hypo? And that i believe hypo can be a disease

> of the brain?

> And I'm not " hung up " on my personal experience....I just don't think

> it's

> that uncommon.

> Cindi

>

October 19, 2004

baron chat wrote:

>if one were to accept your argument, that under a certain point, a

>hypothyroid patient has no control over their behaviour, then one would

>have to accept that violence and even murder would have been beyond

>their control and therefore they should not be held responsible for

>their actions.

>

i think its entirely possible that someone could murder becuase of emotional

distrurbances caused by hypothryoid. Also i think they should be found not

guilty on the nbasis of temporary insanity

In fact i have wondered about a few cases that have beeen on the news

Alison

http://www.alisonashwell.com

new work uploaded

http://www.artwanted/alisonashwell

October 19, 2004

and hypothyroidism isn't.

>

> baron chat wrote:

>

>> that is an effect of long, untreated hypothyroidism. syphilis has

>> that

>> same effect, if long untreated. is syphilis a brain disease? i don't

>> think so.

>>

> Actually tertiary syphilis is considered a brain disease.

>

> --

> Alison

> http://www.alisonashwell.com

> new work uploaded

> http://www.artwanted/alisonashwell

>

October 19, 2004

to prove that, you would have to prove that hypothyroidism causes

temporary insanity, and that the person who acted, had no knowledge of

what they were doing, no control absolutely over what they were doing,

and had no idea of its consequences at the time.

let's put it this way--there are many diseases, including specific

mental illnesses, that cause great emotional and mood disturbances, and

you would even have trouble proving all of the above for many of them.

>

> baron chat wrote:

>

>> if one were to accept your argument, that under a certain point, a

>> hypothyroid patient has no control over their behaviour, then one

>> would

>> have to accept that violence and even murder would have been beyond

>> their control and therefore they should not be held responsible for

>> their actions.

>>

>

> i think its entirely possible that someone could murder becuase of

> emotional distrurbances caused by hypothryoid. Also i think they

> should be found not guilty on the nbasis of temporary insanity

>

> In fact i have wondered about a few cases that have beeen on the news

>

> Alison

> http://www.alisonashwell.com

> new work uploaded

> http://www.artwanted/alisonashwell

>

October 19, 2004

Well, to my knowledge, PMS has never been a defense in a court of law, but I

can tell you I would be willing to bet my ARMOUR that it has caused murders!

In this same vein, yes, I do believe some hypothyroid people are capable of

murder and violence that is not normally in their nature, but made to happen

by the hypothyroid disease itself, and NO at that point, they do NOT have

control over it & they feel backed into a corner and no options available to

them. When they start to realize they HAVE options, they are coming back

into the focus necessary to heal from this disease, and I think many of us

fade in & out of that focus on a daily or even hourly basis.

*Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

Fat cat? Diabetes? Listowner for overweight or hypothyroid cats

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hypokitties/

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October 19, 2004

thank you. and along the same lines that pms has caused murders yet

never been a defense in court, neither would hypothyroidism.

exacerbation or influence is not the same as direct cause, which would

probably be the imperative in deciding whether or not hypothyroidism

causes temporary insanity.

b

>

> Well, to my knowledge, PMS has never been a defense in a court of law,

> but I

> can tell you I would be willing to bet my ARMOUR that it has caused

> murders!

> In this same vein, yes, I do believe some hypothyroid people are

> capable of

> murder and violence that is not normally in their nature, but made to

> happen

> by the hypothyroid disease itself, and NO at that point, they do NOT

> have

> control over it & they feel backed into a corner and no options

> available to

> them. When they start to realize they HAVE options, they are coming

> back

> into the focus necessary to heal from this disease, and I think many

> of us

> fade in & out of that focus on a daily or even hourly basis.

> *Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

> Fat cat? Diabetes? Listowner for overweight or hypothyroid cats

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hypokitties/

>

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>

October 19, 2004

>>thank you. and along the same lines that pms has caused murders yet

never been a defense in court, neither would hypothyroidism<<

Don't thank me yet! LOL Just cause it has never been a defense doesn't mean

I don't think it SHOULD be. I have no faith in the justice of the legal

system at all anymore, but that's a whole nother argument and not for this

board.

*Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

Fat cat? Diabetes? Listowner for overweight or hypothyroid cats

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hypokitties/

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October 19, 2004

i was just thanking you for responding. lol

>

>>> thank you. and along the same lines that pms has caused murders yet

> never been a defense in court, neither would hypothyroidism<<

>

> Don't thank me yet! LOL Just cause it has never been a defense doesn't

> mean

> I don't think it SHOULD be. I have no faith in the justice of the legal

> system at all anymore, but that's a whole nother argument and not for

> this

> board.

> *Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

> Fat cat? Diabetes? Listowner for overweight or hypothyroid cats

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hypokitties/

>

> ---

> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

> Version: 6.0.778 / Virus Database: 525 - Release Date: 10/15/2004

>

October 19, 2004

if you would prefer to believe that a person who has hypothyroidism has

no control whatsoever, you're welcome to that belief and i won't try to

stop you.

point out to me where i said anyone can be in control if they're out of

control. you put those words in my mouth, not me. i said a person who

is sick still can make choices. it takes a conscious effort. you seem

to think once a person is hypothyroid, they're excused from anything,

even murder.

i'm not the one arguing lunacy here.

>

> In a message dated 10/19/2004 5:27:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> 420@... writes:

>

>> and that it wasn't impossible to do something about

>> communication now, which you then disagreed with

>

> i'm not sure any more what your argument is. Of course one can do

> something

> about communication...if they're not out of control because of

> hypo...only you

> say if they're out of control...they can be in control. so we have a

> fundamental difference of perception or something here. so why don't

> you let it go?

> I'm not going to agree with you because I know my own experience...and

> it

> doesn't fit what you're saying. My husband would tell you the same.

> The person

> that I became was not in control. Period. If you want to say I coulda

> controlled behavior, feel free too. but you're wrong about me.

> cindi

>

October 19, 2004

i believe there were instances of both sides doing that, roxanna, so

i'll assume your post wasn't just to me.

On Oct 19, 2004, at 5:09 PM, Roxanna V Knight-Plouff, DVM wrote:

>

> One thing that I cannot tolerate is when someone uses their own level

> of illness as " the example " of what others are experiencing. The one

> sure thing about endocrine diseases is that we each experience its

> manifestations in a very individual way. There are thousands of

> symptoms to be experienced in thousands of ways and variations.

> Because you had total control and awareness at the very worst of your

> disease means only just that, for you.It does not mean that you

> represent any other individual's experience. You are not the first

> person on here to claim to know what others are experiencing and

> should be doing or not doing by using the judgment from your own

> experiences. We should share our experiences, but not claim to know

> how to judge other's actions or choices. You are bound to be wrong.

>

> Roxanna

>

> North Star German Shepherd Dog Rescue Inc

> northstargsdr@...

> www.northstargsdr.org

> Re: Re: is this part of thyroid

> problem?

>

> again, i disagree. i was diagnosed with hashimoto's, had a tsh of

> 39,

> couldn't hardly walk without a cane, when i went in. before that

> diagnosis, i was capable of controlling my actions and capable of

> making choices even when i was sick. i always was. and i do

> believe i

> qualify as being " at the worst point of hypo " .

>

> i'm still walking on a cane today. i still have every symptom i had

> when i went in that clinic that first time, and the only difference

> is

> 30mg of armour, which is nothing. and i'm still capable of making

> choices.

>

> i'm all aware of brain fog and mood disorders. i suffer that all the

> time, still, and on top of that, live with bipolar illness which is a

> GREAT mood disorder. thyroid-wise, i really am in no better shape

> than

> i was 2 years ago, and am in fact worse. this argument of yours,

> that

> if i was capable of making choices and therefore i was never at the

> worst point of hypo, sounds like a justification for using the

> disease

> as an excuse, because if anyone had an excuse for being that way, it

> would be someone in my shoes, and i don't do that at all anymore.

> it's

> also a little bit dismissive, in fact, to the pain and suffering i

> have

> weathered and still put up with, further treatment pending.

>

> b

>

>>

>> In a message dated 10/19/2004 4:09:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,

>> 420@... writes:

>>

>>> then i decided it was really not going to help me feel any better and

>>> would in fact help make EVERYONE feel worse.

>>

>> see...if you had the capability to actually decide something...then

>> you

>> weren't there. at the worst point of hypo....folks are incapable of

>> good thinking.

>> their brain is not functioning properly.

>> cindi

>>

October 20, 2004

In a message dated 10/20/2004 5:13:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,

420@... writes:

> truth be told, i did feel angry and frustrated at myself. why didn't i

> research this more? did i think everything was so easily solved?

> after all, i had spent years researching depression and bipolar illness

> for myself--why didn't i do it for my thyroid?

>

yea...i thought so. I still feel a bit mad at myself sometimes. but we

probably should get over it. docs are supposed to be trained professionals who

look after us, right? haha.

cindi

October 20, 2004

i hope it works out, mary. is he someone who would take an interest in

your suffering, enough to read a book, or at least 2 chapters out of a

book?

because i don't feel like i got the support and understanding i totally

needed until my wife was able to see that this was a very real thing,

and that when i say i am exhausted and in pain, i AM exhausted and in

pain.

before, it was, " i really wasn't hoping for this kind of a life, at my

age. " then she picked up mary shomon's book on living with

hypothyroidism after i was done with it, and read 3 chapters...

now, it's, " you're going to be better. i promise. we'll get you

better. " and, " ugh i feel awful today...it's my allergies. sorry, i

know you feel a lot worse than that... " and, " let's get you better so

we can take a trip. "

i don't know how to explain it but it makes a complete and utter

difference, and the bad days don't seem so harsh.

i'm sorry if i may have come across as flippant in my original reply.

having nearly lost my marriage and having had to work at pulling it

together despite my illness and having that effort pay off, i hate to

see anyone be even more victimized by this disease than they already

have been. sometimes that gets translated into an attitude that feels

insensitive but truly it's not how i actually am.

best,

baron

>

> You are a realist Baron, and I have a tendency to agreem at least on

> this

> one. As I said, I left one that I couldn't stand any more, after 18

> yrs of

> marriage, with a VERY good cause. And I would have told anyone, at one