Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 what was the original dx that had you on so much synthroid before the Armour? > >Reply-To: NaturalThyroidHormones >To: NaturalThyroidHormones >Subject: Re: High TSH w/Armour >Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:41:02 -0000 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Hypothroidism and later told I had Hashimotos. I've been on very high doses of Synthroid for years and have never felt really well. I always had hypo symptoms. In the past, my TSH was up to 35 and down to .3. Hard to figure out what is right here. Peggy > what was the original dx that had you on so much synthroid before the > Armour? > > >From: " Hummer6989 " <hummer6989@h...> > >Reply-To: NaturalThyroidHormones > >To: NaturalThyroidHormones > >Subject: Re: High TSH w/Armour > >Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:41:02 -0000 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 are you on an insulin, estrogen, or have you had a pit MRI? > >Reply-To: NaturalThyroidHormones >To: NaturalThyroidHormones >Subject: Re: High TSH w/Armour >Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:58:30 -0000 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 I am not on estrogen, but am taking compounded progesterone cream 100mg. every night, am on very high doses of insulin (60 units humulin, 2x day & 45 - sliding scale units humulog, 3x day). You sound like you know quite a bit about these things. I'd appreciate your ideas. My new dr. said I am insulin resistant, but I haven't been tested for that either. Peggy > are you on an insulin, estrogen, or have you had a pit MRI? > > >From: " Hummer6989 " <hummer6989@h...> > >Reply-To: NaturalThyroidHormones > >To: NaturalThyroidHormones > >Subject: Re: High TSH w/Armour > >Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 19:58:30 -0000 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 >In the past, my TSH was up to 35 and down to .3. Hard to figure out what is right here. Neither is right. You HAVE to dose by symptoms. The TSH is one of the WORST ways to diagnose whether you are doing well or not. For example, most of us who have found our optimal dose of Armour have TSH's wayyyy below one. Mine last March was .009 for example. Others are lower than I. Docs who go by labs, who see these TSH numbers, have eyes which start rolling wildly in their sockets, tongues which grow 5 " and dangle out with dripping saliva, and bodies which contort in all directions because they are APPALLLED since we MUST be hyper........... Not. Janie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 I love your description of a doctor who goes by TSH. That's what my old one did. In fact, she said my TSH was just a " little " low at 6.8. At that time, I went to a different doctor who put me on Armour. The problem now is that I was on a very high dose of Synthroid and he started me on a low dose of Armour. Now my FT4 is only 0.53 (0.7 - 1.8). My doctor said it will take quite a while to get me " feeling better, " due to my body being depleted of hormones. Well, I have gained 35 pounds in 3 months and feel like total crap. Grrr, why does this have to be so hard? Peggy > > >In the past, my TSH was up to 35 and down to .3. Hard to figure > out what is right here. > > Neither is right. You HAVE to dose by symptoms. The TSH is one of > the WORST ways to diagnose whether you are doing well or not. For > example, most of us who have found our optimal dose of Armour have > TSH's wayyyy below one. Mine last March was .009 for example. Others > are lower than I. > > Docs who go by labs, who see these TSH numbers, have eyes which > start rolling wildly in their sockets, tongues which grow 5 " and > dangle out with dripping saliva, and bodies which contort in all > directions because they are APPALLLED since we MUST be > hyper........... > > Not. > > Janie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 I am curious why he started you on such a low dose of Armour when you were on such a high dose of Synthroid? figure per grain I guess it is about 38 mcgs of t4. Is that right everyone? I find that people on insulin need more t4. I have no research on this, just something I have seen. with The t3 effect, you are still low at 4 grains. I added some t4 to my Armour and it still wasn't right, so I dropped the t4 and upped the Armour. Even that small change made me ache. Hang in there. It is going to be about 4 weeks before the t4 builds back up. > >Reply-To: NaturalThyroidHormones >To: NaturalThyroidHormones >Subject: Re: High TSH w/Armour >Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 20:14:44 -0000 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Peggy Maybe this isn't you, but I was thinking that you were asked awhile back if you'd had any antibodies testing done? Somewhere in my mind, I'm thinking you said no, or only way back, initially? Maybe it's not you, or I dreamed it. Anyway, it seems like you're having a feedback problem between your hypothalamus and pituitary here, or else your thyroid is completely dead. I'm thinking that your pituitary is receiving the wrong message from somewhere, and I think that that would be an antibody attack somewhere other than the thyroid itself, though they are attacking that too. Can't remember, did you have RAI for hyperthyroidism, or were you diagnosed with Hashi's or what? Have you had antibodies testing also for TSI? High TSH w/Armour > > > I had previously been on Synthroid for over 15 years and still had > many hypo symptoms. In early August, I saw another doctor and he > prescribed Armour Thyroid (60mg). Since then, I have worked up to 3 > grains (180mg). In August my TSH was 11 and I just had a new test > and it is up to 20.9. I am so upset about this jump in my TSH. I > called and spoke to my dr's assistant. I didn't think to ask her > what my FT3 or FT4 was. She did call in a prescription of 4 grains > of Armour. I was also upset that it had been almost 2 weeks and my > dr. didn't call me to raise up my Armour. I had several other tests > done and will see my dr. on the 29th. Does anyone have any ideas why > my TSH would keep climbing? I am taking my Armour first thing in the > morning on an empty stomach and not eating for at least 1 or 2 hours > afterwards. I stay away from soy products and try to watch what I > eat. I have gained 35 pounds in 3 months and ache all over. I have > absolutely no energy either. All I want to do is sleep and eat. I > feel like crap!! > > Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 I am thinking with the diabetes there is something more with the pituitary too. > >Reply-To: NaturalThyroidHormones >To: <NaturalThyroidHormones > >Subject: Re: High TSH w/Armour >Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:29:59 -0600 >Peggy Maybe this isn't you, but I was thinking that you were asked awhile back if you'd had any antibodies testing done? Somewhere in my mind, I'm thinking you said no, or only way back, initially? Maybe it's not you, or I dreamed it. Anyway, it seems like you're having a feedback problem between your hypothalamus and pituitary here, or else your thyroid is completely dead. I'm thinking that your pituitary is receiving the wrong message from somewhere, and I think that that would be an antibody attack somewhere other than the thyroid itself, though they are attacking that too. Can't remember, did you have RAI for hyperthyroidism, or were you diagnosed with Hashi's or what? Have you had antibodies testing also for TSI? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Thank you so much for the encouragement. I've been hanging in here for so long, I guess I'll just have to be patient for a while longer. I have filed for social security disability because of my ongoing health problems. I haven't felt well enough to work for quite a while now. I was having so many problems with memory, slow thinking, etc. that I couldn't keep a job. Peggy -- In NaturalThyroidHormones , " JAMY " <jamyrogers@m...> wrote: > > I am curious why he started you on such a low dose of Armour when you were > on such a high dose of Synthroid? figure per grain I guess it is about 38 > mcgs of t4. Is that right everyone? I find that people on insulin need more > t4. I have no research on this, just something I have seen. with The t3 > effect, you are still low at 4 grains. I added some t4 to my Armour and it > still wasn't right, so I dropped the t4 and upped the Armour. Even that > small change made me ache. Hang in there. It is going to be about 4 weeks > before the t4 builds back up. > >From: " Hummer6989 " <hummer6989@h...> > >Reply-To: NaturalThyroidHormones > >To: NaturalThyroidHormones > >Subject: Re: High TSH w/Armour > >Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 20:14:44 -0000 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 I can't say for sure that I've had antibody testing. I did see an endo dr. a couple of years ago, and he told me I had Hashimotos. That endo refused to change me to Armour and kept me on high doses of Synthroid too. Peggy > Peggy > > Maybe this isn't you, but I was thinking that you were asked awhile back if > you'd had any antibodies testing done? Somewhere in my mind, I'm thinking > you said no, or only way back, initially? Maybe it's not you, or I dreamed > it. Anyway, it seems like you're having a feedback problem between your > hypothalamus and pituitary here, or else your thyroid is completely dead. > I'm thinking that your pituitary is receiving the wrong message from > somewhere, and I think that that would be an antibody attack somewhere other > than the thyroid itself, though they are attacking that too. Can't > remember, did you have RAI for hyperthyroidism, or were you diagnosed with > Hashi's or what? Have you had antibodies testing also for TSI? > > > > High TSH w/Armour > > > > > > > > I had previously been on Synthroid for over 15 years and still had > > many hypo symptoms. In early August, I saw another doctor and he > > prescribed Armour Thyroid (60mg). Since then, I have worked up to 3 > > grains (180mg). In August my TSH was 11 and I just had a new test > > and it is up to 20.9. I am so upset about this jump in my TSH. I > > called and spoke to my dr's assistant. I didn't think to ask her > > what my FT3 or FT4 was. She did call in a prescription of 4 grains > > of Armour. I was also upset that it had been almost 2 weeks and my > > dr. didn't call me to raise up my Armour. I had several other tests > > done and will see my dr. on the 29th. Does anyone have any ideas why > > my TSH would keep climbing? I am taking my Armour first thing in the > > morning on an empty stomach and not eating for at least 1 or 2 hours > > afterwards. I stay away from soy products and try to watch what I > > eat. I have gained 35 pounds in 3 months and ache all over. I have > > absolutely no energy either. All I want to do is sleep and eat. I > > feel like crap!! > > > > Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Is there something that can help if it is a pituitary problem? I know very little about that. I just know I've had hypo symptoms for years and problems controlling my blood sugar, taking 5 shots of insulin a day. Peggy > I am thinking with the diabetes there is something more with the pituitary > too. > > >From: " " <marin@q...> > >Reply-To: NaturalThyroidHormones > >To: <NaturalThyroidHormones > > >Subject: Re: High TSH w/Armour > >Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 15:29:59 -0600 > >Peggy > > Maybe this isn't you, but I was thinking that you were asked awhile back if > you'd had any antibodies testing done? Somewhere in my mind, I'm thinking > you said no, or only way back, initially? Maybe it's not you, or I dreamed > it. Anyway, it seems like you're having a feedback problem between your > hypothalamus and pituitary here, or else your thyroid is completely dead. > I'm thinking that your pituitary is receiving the wrong message from > somewhere, and I think that that would be an antibody attack somewhere other > than the thyroid itself, though they are attacking that too. Can't > remember, did you have RAI for hyperthyroidism, or were you diagnosed with > Hashi's or what? Have you had antibodies testing also for TSI? > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 now you have some people that can help you head in the right direction > >Reply-To: NaturalThyroidHormones >To: NaturalThyroidHormones >Subject: Re: High TSH w/Armour >Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2004 22:09:38 -0000 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Yes, it's all so interwoven. Re: High TSH w/Armour > > I am thinking with the diabetes there is something more with the pituitary > too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 > > I have posted previously about my high TSH (20.0) while taking 3 Gr. > of Armour. As I stated, my dr. just upped me to 4 Gr. of Armour a > few days ago. I was just wondering if my constant use of salt could > possibly be somehow blocking the Armour from doing it's job. I am a > saltaholic and never thought about the issues of iodine in it. After > seeing posts about taking ThyroCare containing iodine, I began to > wonder if all the salt I use on my food could be the root of my > thyroid problems. I have always craved salty foods and oversalt > everything I eat. I am going to buy a salt substitute and stop using > salt for a while to see if it helps. Anyone have any comments or > knowledge about the overuse of salt??? Interesting to find out if it > does have an effect on me. > > Peggy If your are saltaholic ( like me ) you probably have a lack of aldosterone . And not eating the salt you need wouldn't be good for you . My doc ( doc ) put me on 125 fludrocortisone ( = aldosterone ) and it turned out I needed more , so he upped me to 250 ! The average dose is 100 . I have craved salt all my life . ne in France http://www.geocities.com/thyroide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Iodine would make thyroid antibodies attack even more, so the literature says, but that doesn't necessarily explain why you would have such a high TSH. I'm thinking that you have antibodies attacking some place other than the thyroid receptors themselves, also. High TSH w/Armour > > > I have posted previously about my high TSH (20.0) while taking 3 Gr. > of Armour. As I stated, my dr. just upped me to 4 Gr. of Armour a > few days ago. I was just wondering if my constant use of salt could > possibly be somehow blocking the Armour from doing it's job. I am a > saltaholic and never thought about the issues of iodine in it. After > seeing posts about taking ThyroCare containing iodine, I began to > wonder if all the salt I use on my food could be the root of my > thyroid problems. I have always craved salty foods and oversalt > everything I eat. I am going to buy a salt substitute and stop using > salt for a while to see if it helps. Anyone have any comments or > knowledge about the overuse of salt??? Interesting to find out if it > does have an effect on me. > > Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 I crave salt too. Can't go completely without. But they say we salty things then we crave sugary things & back & forth it goes. So I have to watch my salt intake closely & then I don't crave sugar as much. Works good for me. Everything in moderation. And boy oh boy, I'm anything but " moderate " about some things. So I have to force myself to monitor. Sure keeps the mind busy monitoring what I'm putting into my body all day long. Not much time think of much else anymore with all the supplements I'm taking l/2 hour apart, some on an empty stomach, some with food. Some first thing in the morning, some last thing at night. Caroline Re: High TSH w/Armour > I was just wondering if my constant use of salt could possibly be somehow blocking the Armour from doing it's job. I am a saltaholic and never thought about the issues of iodine in it. If your are saltaholic ( like me ) you probably have a lack of aldosterone . And not eating the salt you need wouldn't be good for you . My doc ( doc ) put me on 125 fludrocortisone ( = aldosterone ) and it turned out I needed more , so he upped me to 250 ! The average dose is 100 . I have craved salt all my life . ne in France Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Oh, no, please don't go back to Synthroid because these problems will only multiply worse than ever. You just happen to be one of those people, probably will much cellular resistance, so it's going to take much higher doses for you and some more time. Issues that are long standing on acct of being thyroid hormone deficient for so long can help cause this. Re: High TSH w/Armour > > > Janie: > > 1. Yes, in answer to your question about my TSH being 11 and going > up to almost 21 in a little over 2 months on Armour. > > 2. I was previously taking a very high dose of Synthroid (.4mg) > daily. My TSH in July was at 6. My dr. started me on Armour at > 60mg. daily, so I immediately went more hypo. My next TSH taken in > mid-August was at 11. > > 3. How is the test for antibodies and adrenals done? Is it by a > blood test? I may have had that done a couple of years ago, but not > recently. I was seeing an endo then and he said I have Hashimotos. > I've not had my ferritin tested that I know of either. > > 4. I am not on estrogen, but I am using 100mg of progesterone > ointment on my arm every night. Dr. said my estrogen was on the high > side but my progesterone was nonexistent. > > 5. My dr. just raised me to 4 Gr. of Armour, and yes, they do have > an A on them. I refused to take the generic ones my drug store tried > to give me. I will try your suggestion about taking my Armour > sublingually and splitting the dosage. > > I don't have my labs in front front of me yet. I called my drs. > office yesterday, and his assistant told me over the phone that " Your > TSH is up a bit from last time. " I will get a copy when I see my dr. > in 2 weeks. > > Thanks so much for your input. I remember talking to you about my > starting Armour back in August on this board. I appreciate any help > you can give me. I feel even worse than I did when I started > Armour. I have had hypo symptoms for many years. For some reason I > have to take very high doses of thyroid meds to keep my TSH even > partly in line. I now weigh 270 pounds and wonder if my weight can > affect the amount of meds I have to take. I have gained 35 pounds in > 3 months, all in the stomach area. I need help. My dr. told me I > would feel much worse before I felt better because my body was do > depleted of hormones. I had no idea it would get this bad. I'm > ready to give up and go back to Synthroid. > > Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Good thought Jamy, and, if it is, it is detrimental to Hashi's patients like us, as the antibodies will only go after her that much more. I hate Hashi's, yuk! Re: High TSH w/Armour > >Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 13:59:25 -0000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Oh, YES, it DOES have iodine, doesn't it?! That looks like part of the problem right there. Re: High TSH w/Armour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 You're still extremely hypo, so that's your answer to all. If the T4 is below range, I can't immagine how little T3 is being absorbed into your body cells. You still have quite a way to go here. Re: High TSH w/Armour > > > I just called my dr. and was told that my FT3 hadn't been done but > that my FT4 was 0.53 (0.7 - 1.8) which is a bit low. I have no idea > what low FT4 would mean. Can you explain it to me. He just raised > me up to 4 gr. of Armour. > > Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 I also think it is a joke on how low a dose of selenium. Why bother? > >Reply-To: NaturalThyroidHormones >To: <NaturalThyroidHormones > >Subject: Re: Re: High TSH w/Armour >Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 17:34:36 -0600 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Armour has 38 mcgs of T4 and 9 mcgs of T3 per 1 grain dose (60 mgs). T4 is the storage hormone. I just recently added back 25 mcgs of synthetic T4, but don't know how long I can stick with that. I think I'm already starting to have an allergic reaction again, due to strange fillers in these drugs. Armour doesn't do me that way, and I'm hoping that the Nature Throid doesn't. I know I'm safe from allergy on Armour. You're not hypo because you went off of Syntrhod, you're hypo because you already were. It's going to take time and patience to correct this, and it will not happen right away, especially with longstanding hypo or undertreatment/wrong treatment. This will not happen overnight. I think your doctor doesn't believe in non conversion of T4 to T3, but it may not even be the issue. From the looks of your test results, you don't have any T4 to convert, i.e., hypo. Takes time, not just a month or two. Re: High TSH w/Armour > > > Since my FT4 is quite low at 0.53 (0.7 - 1.8), I am wondering if it > would be okay to take some Synthroid for the T4. My dr. just upped > my dose of Armout from 3 Gr. to 4 Gr. now. I started taking Armour > in early August, but still have many hypo symptoms. That's why I > thought it might make a difference if I tried adding some T4. I > don't see my dr. until the 29th, and his assistant just suggested I > take the 4 Gr. of Armour. I do have .75MCG of Synthroid left over. > hat do you guys & gals think about adding T4? I feel like I have a > double dose of the flu with body aches, buddha belly, brain fog, slow > moving and thinking, and the list goes on. > > Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 Hashimoto's has ins and outs of highs and lows, that's what I hate about it. It is crucial for a doctor to know all about Hashi's, as it is crucial for you to know also. It is puzzling, confusing, and has to be monitored for a very long time, as in yrs, not months. In Hashi's, the gland can put out high amts of thyroid for a short while, then turn around and stop producing, at least until the gland is eaten alive by the antibodies (just trying to inject SOME humor here). This is why you need to study your disease, but first you need a doctor who is willing to study it also. Is he willing to learn? Re: High TSH w/Armour > > > Hypothroidism and later told I had Hashimotos. I've been on very > high doses of Synthroid for years and have never felt really well. I > always had hypo symptoms. In the past, my TSH was up to 35 and down > to .3. Hard to figure out what is right here. > > Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2004 Report Share Posted November 21, 2004 There is another part of your answer. You are a Type II Diabetic, right, or are you Type I? This actually makes you insulin resistant, from the beginning onward, especially with Type II. Insulin resistance is the first step to becoming diabetic, period, so you definitely are. This means that your cells are resistant to the insulin putting the blood sugar in the cells, where it belongs, but it also means that the cellular receptors for thyroid hormone are also resistant to taking up the T3. There is your answer right there. You are going to need humongous amts of thyroid to force the receptors to " wake up " . Diabetics are almost always hypothyroid, IMHO, and many others' opinions also. Re: High TSH w/Armour > > > I am not on estrogen, but am taking compounded progesterone cream > 100mg. every night, am on very high doses of insulin (60 units > humulin, 2x day & 45 - sliding scale units humulog, 3x day). You > sound like you know quite a bit about these things. I'd appreciate > your ideas. My new dr. said I am insulin resistant, but I haven't > been tested for that either. > > Peggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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