New theory of...food?

[Guest guest]

This is, of course, just a suggestion, but it would seem to me that the

debate about disease and its nature is perhaps reaching a point where it

should be taken to one of the raw food groups or perhaps just offline.

While I am still firmly in the skeptical camp on this subject, to be fair to

, he's trying to defend a concept that has been layed out using a much

more detailed and eloquent medium: published books. I would personally

submit that this format isn't really conducive to proposing and supporting

new and challenging ideas to a diverse group of people. This format does a

much better job of allowing people who are already on a similar page to

collaborate regarding their common interests.

While raw food and its effects, in general, are absolutely relevant to this

group, I question the relevance of the " new theory of disease. " I don't

think the point of NT is to encourage microbial " detoxes. " They may or may

not be beneficial as an adjunct, but I suspect there are better ways and

places to try to hammer that question out.

Again, this is just a suggestion. If I decide I'm getting too weary of the

discussion, I can certainly excercise my delete key finger or practice my

email client filter-building skills.

[Guest guest]

> This is, of course, just a suggestion, but it would seem to me that

the

> debate about disease and its nature is perhaps reaching a point

where it

> should be taken to one of the raw food groups or perhaps just

offline.

Thanks ,

I'm finished. I've said about all I've got to say. I'll let

have the last word if he likes.

Portland, OR

[Guest guest]

If RAF may be very helpful in achieving good health,

which I think is a goal of NT, knowing (or thinking

that one knows ) if eating RAF is dangerous or not

(because of contracting microbes) is important and may

be a factor that would affect one's decision.

Understanding the role of microbes is key in this.

Therefore, I'd vote for letting this thread complete

on its own.

Roman

--- Kroyer <skroyer@...> wrote:

> While raw food and its effects, in general, are

> absolutely relevant to this

> group, I question the relevance of the " new theory

> of disease. " I don't

> think the point of NT is to encourage microbial

> " detoxes. " They may or may

> not be beneficial as an adjunct, but I suspect there

> are better ways and

> places to try to hammer that question out.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Roman,

I'm just thinking out loud so bear with me. If we are all agreed that raw

animal foods are necessary for optimal health, and given that this list

is devoted to the work of Weston Price, I assume this is the case. Why

would this thread need to continue, given that in principle, we all agree

on the *efficacy* of raw animal foods for an optimum diet, even though we

might disagree on the percentage. Perhaps is right, it would be

better off list.

Further, has anyone noted this as a problem that Weston Price observed

among any of the groups he studied, regardless of what percentage of food

was raw? Unless my memory is faulty I don't recall such comments. I think

this speaks *volumes*. When I posted the excerpt from " Guts and Grease "

at the WAP website on this list, did anyone notice the stuff they were

eating uncooked? Yikes! I sent that to some family members and they

really thought I had lost it. But yet no mention of parasite problems.

Interesting.

Anecdotally, it is a given assumption in the raw animal food community

that the microbe/parasite menace is way overhyped.

Just some food for thought.

Bianca

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:22:28 -0800 (PST) Roman <r_rom@...> writes:

If RAF may be very helpful in achieving good health,

which I think is a goal of NT, knowing (or thinking

that one knows ) if eating RAF is dangerous or not

(because of contracting microbes) is important and may

be a factor that would affect one's decision.

Understanding the role of microbes is key in this.

Therefore, I'd vote for letting this thread complete

on its own.

Roman

[Guest guest]

It should be noted though, that when raw foods are increased

significantly in the diet, whether it be from the vegetable or animal

kingdom, " detoxes " aren't far behind.

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:44:33 -0600 Kroyer

<skroyer@...> writes:

While raw food and its effects, in general, are absolutely relevant to

this

group, I question the relevance of the " new theory of disease. " I don't

think the point of NT is to encourage microbial " detoxes. " They may or

may

not be beneficial as an adjunct, but I suspect there are better ways and

places to try to hammer that question out.

[Guest guest]

> If RAF may be very helpful in achieving good health,

> which I think is a goal of NT, knowing (or thinking

> that one knows ) if eating RAF is dangerous or not

> (because of contracting microbes) is important and may

> be a factor that would affect one's decision.

> Understanding the role of microbes is key in this.

> Therefore, I'd vote for letting this thread complete

> on its own.

Hi Roman,

That's fine with me. However, I doubt that very many who are really

concerned about getting sick from raw food would or even should be

swayed by the outcome of an informal debate between laypeople. The

outcome of this debate won't mean anything more than the outcome of

any debate does...that one side debated better than the other. It

certainly doesn't equate with empirical or even truly logical

validation.

That's really why I thought it might be a bit pointless...but I know

at least a couple others have indicated that they appreciate this

thread too. As long as there are people who feel they are

benefitting, by all means carry on...

With that said, I just had a medium dry aged top round steak reduced

to bite-size thin carpaccio slices and quick-marinated (5 minutes or

so) in the juice of 1 lime, 1 teaspoon fresh grated ginger, 1/4

teaspoon celtic sea salt, 1/4 teaspoon black pepper, 1 tablespoon

wine vinegar, 1 tablespoon ev olive oil, 1 teaspoon flax oil (since

it wasn't grassfed) and a smidge of crushed garlic. I ate it like a

salad in a bowl, and had an orange for dessert.

Very delicious. I'll make sure to let everyone know if I'm still

alive this weekend! :-)

[Guest guest]

You microbe eating fool you.... :-)

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:52:15 -0000 " skroyer "

<skroyer@...> writes:

With that said, I just had a medium dry aged top round steak reduced

to bite-size thin carpaccio slices and quick-marinated (5 minutes or

so) in the juice of 1 lime, 1 teaspoon fresh grated ginger, 1/4

teaspoon celtic sea salt, 1/4 teaspoon black pepper, 1 tablespoon

wine vinegar, 1 tablespoon ev olive oil, 1 teaspoon flax oil (since

it wasn't grassfed) and a smidge of crushed garlic. I ate it like a

salad in a bowl, and had an orange for dessert.

Very delicious. I'll make sure to let everyone know if I'm still

alive this weekend! :-)

[Guest guest]

Bianca-

>It should be noted though, that when raw foods are increased

>significantly in the diet, whether it be from the vegetable or animal

>kingdom, " detoxes " aren't far behind.

OK, since I'm about to increase my RAW intake, what sort of " detoxes " are

you talking about? Based on your experience, am I likely to contract the

flu or something like that? Or do you mean I'll suffer from the sort of

ailments people who shed a lot of fat weight sometimes experience due to

pollutants stored in fat being released and flushed rapidly enough to cause

noticeable disturbance? Or something else?

-

[Guest guest]

Bianca wrote:

> It should be noted though, that when raw foods are increased

> significantly in the diet, whether it be from the vegetable or animal

> kingdom, " detoxes " aren't far behind.

Now why'd you have to go and say a thing like that? ...and the day after I

ate half a pound of raw steak no less!

Seriously though, what you say concerns me, because I have no interest in

experiencing a " detox. " I am wholly unconvinced at this point in the game

that a " detox " actually detoxifies. I have neither read nor heard anything

to date that suggests that it is anything other than food poisoning which I

still believe to be a bad (or at least less than optimal) thing. I'm going

to do everything in my personal power to ensure that I don't experience any

" detox " regardless of how much raw I include in my diet. So that means that

I'll be getting the healthiest and freshest meats and seafood I can find and

consuming most of them after liberally seasoning them with a mixture of

salt, acid, and antimicrobial herbs and spices.

No offense is intended to anyone; it's just that my interest in raw foods is

entirely from the standpoint of improved digestibility and non-destruction

of nutritional factors.

[Guest guest]

Greetings ,

Could you list your " mixture of ... antimicrobial

herbs and spices " ?

Cordially,

-

Chapter rep. in Grass Valley, California

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

At 01:57 AM 2/27/2002 -0500, you wrote:

>OK, since I'm about to increase my RAW intake, what sort of " detoxes " are

>you talking about? Based on your experience, am I likely to contract the

>flu or something like that? Or do you mean I'll suffer from the sort of

>ailments people who shed a lot of fat weight sometimes experience due to

>pollutants stored in fat being released and flushed rapidly enough to cause

>noticeable disturbance? Or something else?

Everyone is different. For me the detoxes center on sinus, ear,

chest. These are areas in my body where I've had lots of past illnesses

(strep, bronchitis, scarlet fever, pneumonia, ear infections, sinus

drip). I'm just getting over a 11 day detox which started as flu-ish with

fever and diarrhea and quickly went to bronchitis and sinus irritation. My

tonsils are still inflamed and sore from all of the coughing and

irritation. In this case I think it was triggered by the weight loss

(toxins in the fat as you say) that I had just started. There are some who

say (Aajonus for one) that we likely will experience past illnesses as

detoxes. From my experience I am inclined to agree.

-=mark=-

[Guest guest]

At 10:15 AM 2/27/2002 -0600, you wrote:

>I'm going

>to do everything in my personal power to ensure that I don't experience any

> " detox " regardless of how much raw I include in my diet. So that means that

>I'll be getting the healthiest and freshest meats and seafood I can find and

>consuming most of them after liberally seasoning them with a mixture of

>salt, acid, and antimicrobial herbs and spices.

Then, you won't really be eating " raw " foods with such adulteration. And

by ingesting antimicrobial herbs and spices, you will be fiddling with your

body's flora. I wish you well but I do not hold much hope that you will

continue to be healthy from eating in the manner you stated. I think you

have it all backwards - the way you want to eat those foods will produce a

sort-of " food poisoning " by killing off all of the beneficial bacteria and

the salt and acid is going to alter your body chemistry too. You'll get

sick from that as surely as one would eventually get a detox from eating

unadulterated raw foods.

If you want to avoid detox then you will not also be able to avoid regular

illnesses caused by toxin build-up. It's (IMHO) either one or the other

and we have no other options. The only person who should be able to avoid

detox would be a person who has eaten raw all of his/her life in a pristine

environment and has no " skeletons " in the " body closet " .

You are correct - there are two different types of " detoxifications " . One

is from poisonous foods where the body reacts immediately to recently

ingested food. This might be commercially processed, canned foods that

have become tainted or from a large amount of processed food that has aged

with lots of bacteria (say a re-heated burger from a fast food place). The

other type of detox is not immediate but comes on slowly. In this type

where the person is eating raw foods, the body is triggered into cleaning

house and starts moving out previously tissue-stored toxins (say from old

antibiotics, old toxins from certain types of processed foods). When these

toxins finally come to the surface we might experience the illness that

caused us to use the toxin (say, pneumonia that we previously, years ago

treated with an antibiotic) as the antibiotic comes loose and gets ready to

be excreted as waste.

I've had both types of detoxes - one interesting one was a whole body rash

that resulted from eating an apple and a pear from the normal grocery

without washing them first - that was an immediate food poisoning type of

detox. I just got through the other type of detox during the past 11 days

or so - flu then bronchitis and sinus drainage brought on by an intensive

100% raw period of time and exacerbated by limiting the fats to trigger

weight loss. This weight loss burns lots of fats that have had toxins

stored in them (binding together). This means I'm burning off the toxins

too and they are powerful - whew!

Now, this was no picnic I'll admit. But I am confident that I now have

much fewer toxins in my body than 12 days ago. I already am starting to

feel powerful, strong and more alert than 12 days ago. In my belief

system, this means that I have made progress toward a less toxic body and

much better overall health and longevity. After 2.5 years of raw foods I

have gone through about 4 or 5 detoxes - some easy and some more

difficult. And they are no worse nor better than standard " illnesses " that

we all have gone through all of our lives. But the final result is

definitely a healthier body than I have ever had in my whole adult life.

Regards,

-=mark=-

[Guest guest]

- wrote:

> Could you list your " mixture of ... antimicrobial

> herbs and spices " ?

Sure, but it's not anything particularly well researched. I just remembered

hearing that ginger, garlic, and black pepper have all been shown to have

some antibacterial (also antiviral for garlic and even anti-parasitic for

ginger) properties. I figure that if you combine those with some fresh

lemon or lime juice or some wine, malt or cider vinegar and some

salt...you've pretty much got a recipe for pickles. Obviously it's not

nearly briny enough to actually cure anything, but it's got to go a fair way

toward lowering the bacteria count on the *surface* of the meat. That's my

thinking behind it anyway. If I had the laboratory and skills, I'd love to

test just how much of an effect different ingredients might have.

I hope that's not too disappointing of an answer!

[Guest guest]

-

>I am wholly unconvinced at this point in the game

>that a " detox " actually detoxifies.

Me too. I know there are _some_ genuine detoxes, but I think many other

feelings of illness are mistaken for them. (The Herxheimer effect is real,

and I do know that people who rapidly lose fat weight can suffer from the

effects of their systems suddenly being flooded with toxins that had been

stored in their body fat, but other than that I'm extremely skeptical. I

wonder how many food poisoning reactions are being termed " detoxes " by the

raw crowd.)

-

[Guest guest]

Mark-

>If you want to avoid detox then you will not also be able to avoid regular

>illnesses caused by toxin build-up.

But the body has mechanisms to flush toxic matter out -- the bowels, for

example. I would think that in a really healthy person these mechanisms

would function better (and would have to handle a lower toxin load) than in

your average American. And it's one more reason not just to eat the right

kind of foods, but to find the best possible sources of those foods --

organic, grass-fed, from the best possible soils, etc.

-

[Guest guest]

At 01:24 PM 2/27/02 -0600, wrote:

If I had the laboratory and skills, I'd love to

>test just how much of an effect different ingredients might have.

,

Jim Duke's database has all that info. Can search for antibiotic, antiviral,

common name etc.

From my newsletter

For Medical Botany Syllabus, with many modules, see:

<http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/syllabus>http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/syllabus

For example, there is an Herbal Desk Reference (HDR) Module, with

bioactivities, indications, some dosage levels, and counterindications and

side effects.

For weekly newsletter, see:

<http://www.fathernaturesfarmacy.com/>http://www.fathernaturesfarmacy.com

Wanita

[Guest guest]

At 03:52 PM 2/27/2002 -0500, you wrote:

>But the body has mechanisms to flush toxic matter out -- the bowels, for

>example. I would think that in a really healthy person these mechanisms

>would function better (and would have to handle a lower toxin load) than in

>your average American.

Of course your observation is correct. In a healthy person we can assume

they have little toxic build-up or that the toxins are so deep in the

tissues that they do little or no visible damage nor cause illnesses,

etc. We cannot, therefore, assume that a healthy person has a toxin-free

body. But a healthy person who has eaten natural foods for a very long

time is probably relatively toxin-free and their elimination mechanisms are

probably working better than the average American " Joe " .

While the bowels are one mechanism to deliver waste products to the outside

there is one tiny detail that often goes overlooked. How do the waste

products get to the intestines (or to the sweat glands or to the bladder,

etc.) and into the colon in the first place? They don't just magically

deliver themselves to the intestines. Other body processes have to be

working properly and well to identify toxins/wastes/non-self and to engulf

them (as in macrophages - white blood cells) and then through either the

blood or lymph move through the body for additional processing and - then

the wastes are delivered to the intestine for (hopeful) removal from the

body. If any of these processes are faulty or incomplete - the

waste/toxins are not dealt with properly and they stay somewhere in the

body. Arthritis is an easy example of how toxins " hide " in the joints

while the body " gnaws " away at both the toxins and the joints. There are

also body-created toxins from faulty cellular processes driven by

malnutrition - so one does not have to ingest toxins to get toxic.

But if the person is still eating poorly and still ingesting toxins on a

daily basis (however those toxins are defined - say processed foods or

cooked foods or supplementation that can't be digested properly) then the

" osmosis " effect is in play.

In osmosis things (gases, minerals, toxins, etc.) move from places of

high-concentration to low-concentration in an effort to balance the

imbalance (of high-to-low concentration or " pressure " ). So when we are

eating new toxins (or we have indigestion resulting in toxic by-products in

the body) the body is too busy trying to deal with them. Often it cannot

properly deal with them all so some raw toxins go into the intestine and

then the colon only to be re absorbed into the body again through the colon

prior to elimination. These newly absorbed toxins go into the tissues and

sometimes deeply over time. So you can think of the poor food or

indigestion as a high " pressure " of toxins that is higher than the body

tissue toxin " pressure " - so the toxins are driven into the body tissues -

deeply. Yet, some of the toxins are eliminated daily - especially the new

ones that arrive in foods. This balance changes back-and-forth helping to

cause periodic bouts of illness, headache, etc.

It is only when the person stops ingesting toxins that the osmosis effect

reverses itself. So now that person is eating natural, unprocessed foods

that naturally have few toxic qualities and cause little or no

indigestion. Eventually the " pressure " of toxins in the body becomes much

higher than in the incoming foods so the body tissues start to relinquish

the stored toxins which can then be dealt with and sent to the outside of

the body. This movement of stored toxins occurs during normal cellular and

body processes throughout the entire body. It can take decades to clean

out a body that has eaten the SAD for a long time.

I am reminded of the man who, after some 15 years on raw foods and never

having any prescriptions or medical preparations during that time developed

an open, black sore on his hand. He had a sample analyzed by a laboratory

and found that it was a mold of Penicillin. He had Penicillin for the last

time about 15 years or so earlier. Clearly the Penicillin had been deep in

the tissues and had worked it's way out of the body during those

years. And it did not come out through " normal " channels of elimination

either.

I no expert in this field and I may have used terminology incorrectly here

or oversimplified. I am just describing the effects in the best way that I

know of. The idea is sound but some of the details may not be exactly right.

-=mark=-

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:57:06 -0500 Idol <Idol@...>

writes:

Bianca-

>It should be noted though, that when raw foods are increased

>significantly in the diet, whether it be from the vegetable or animal

>kingdom, " detoxes " aren't far behind.

OK, since I'm about to increase my RAW intake, what sort of " detoxes " are

you talking about? Based on your experience, am I likely to contract the

flu or something like that? Or do you mean I'll suffer from the sort of

ailments people who shed a lot of fat weight sometimes experience due to

pollutants stored in fat being released and flushed rapidly enough to

cause

noticeable disturbance? Or something else?

-

It varies from person to person. Usually though it mimics some physical

problem and disease you have had in the past. It is known in some circles

as a " healing crisis "

Bianca

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:15:35 -0600 Kroyer

<skroyer@...> writes:

Bianca wrote:

> It should be noted though, that when raw foods are increased

> significantly in the diet, whether it be from the vegetable or animal

> kingdom, " detoxes " aren't far behind.

Now why'd you have to go and say a thing like that? ...and the day after

I

ate half a pound of raw steak no less!

ME: sorry!!! :-)

Seriously though, what you say concerns me, because I have no interest in

experiencing a " detox. " I am wholly unconvinced at this point in the

game

that a " detox " actually detoxifies. I have neither read nor heard

anything

to date that suggests that it is anything other than food poisoning which

I

still believe to be a bad (or at least less than optimal) thing. I'm

going

to do everything in my personal power to ensure that I don't experience

any

" detox " regardless of how much raw I include in my diet. So that means

that

I'll be getting the healthiest and freshest meats and seafood I can find

and

consuming most of them after liberally seasoning them with a mixture of

salt, acid, and antimicrobial herbs and spices.

ME: Detoxes or healing crises are really unavoidable. I have seen people

have them whether they are vegan, juice or water fasting, or eating

animal foods. It really is more of " the cold is the cure " kind of thing,

i.e. your body eliminating old crap as it gets better nutrition. It would

be difficult to describe, at least from my vantage point, as all these

being food poisoning. Particularly when people are passing cancers and

other various tumors and parasites or TONS of mucous or are mimicing some

old disease or what have you in the immediate aftermath of such crisis

and obvoiusly experiencing a level of health higher than before the

crisis. (sorry about the run on sentence).

Bianca

[Guest guest]

Bruce Fife has written a book titled, The Healing Crisis. I haven't read

it fully, therefore can't vouch for it, only glanced through it. Bernard

Jensen talks about it in his Doctor Patient Handbook. I can tell you from

a clinical perspective that the people who understood this and knew what

to expect made it through with flying colors with a level of health

previously unknown.

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:44:37 -0500 Idol <Idol@...>

writes:

-

>I am wholly unconvinced at this point in the game

>that a " detox " actually detoxifies.

Me too. I know there are _some_ genuine detoxes, but I think many other

feelings of illness are mistaken for them. (The Herxheimer effect is

real,

and I do know that people who rapidly lose fat weight can suffer from the

effects of their systems suddenly being flooded with toxins that had been

stored in their body fat, but other than that I'm extremely skeptical. I

wonder how many food poisoning reactions are being termed " detoxes " by

the

raw crowd.)

-