Guest guest Posted March 13, 2002 Report Share Posted March 13, 2002 Ramit- >Does this sound >like a worthy project? Yes! I wish I could point you in the right direction, but no opposition to this insane, euthanasia-like campaign for mandatory pasteurization of foods is unworthy. (And while I realize comparing modern dietary policy to euthanasia might seem extreme and absurd, look at Pottenger's cats, and look at infertility rates. I'm sure it's not the INTENDED effect, but the effect is there regardless.) - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2002 Report Share Posted March 14, 2002 > Ramit- > > >Does this sound > >like a worthy project? > > Yes! I wish I could point you in the right direction, but no opposition to > this insane, euthanasia-like campaign for mandatory pasteurization of foods > is unworthy. (And while I realize comparing modern dietary policy to > euthanasia might seem extreme and absurd, look at Pottenger's cats, and > look at infertility rates. I'm sure it's not the INTENDED effect, but the > effect is there regardless.) > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>Dennis says, " Ditto " ! and yes,yes yes, although I don't know what angle to approach the legal aspect of the problem. Some say lawsuits aren't necessary but when the government comes straight at us with cease and desist orders we have to react with lawsuits of some sort because our product is perishable, very perishable, and time is of the essence in producing/processing the organic/authentic crops as well. Dennis Kemnitz > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2002 Report Share Posted March 14, 2002 --- In @y..., " dkemnitz2000 " <dkemnitz2000@y...> wrote: > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>Dennis says, " Ditto " ! and yes,yes yes, although I > don't know what angle to approach the legal aspect of the problem. I know, we need to find a way to attract the very bored and very idle rich to the WAP philosophy. Then they can subsidize dairy farmers that are shut down for selling raw milk and pay for the legal costs. Its too bad that all the people that are into health are vegetarians. I'll bet there are loads of rich vegetarians. If they could only go vegan, we might get them down the road when they run out of B12, iron, fat soluable vitamins and long chain omega-3's. I think maybe we should promote both WAP and veganism! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2002 Report Share Posted March 14, 2002 Ramit Search the E.U. for the true information on raw milk. The U.S. milk industry looks at one page to base its whole raw milk campaign on and it was developed by Disney in 1948 Ramit wrote: > Hello all, > > I have gotten really upset recently about the way that farmers who are > involved in the production of raw dairy products are being singled out. > Having read about the " new " pasteurized eggs, I really worry that this will > be next. > > Anyway, I was thinking of approaching one of the libertarian or > administrative law professors around here (preferably a libertarian admin > law prof) and asking whether I could write a paper on this topic. I hope to > dig up some good case law (or info) and get a nice article together that > could explore some of the issues and potentially be of use. > > My search last week was not optimistic, but it was only *one* state (nasty > VA!), and so much of this seems to be unchartered territory. > > Anyway, I wanted to get some ideas from all of you about pressing topics or > what specifically I should explore. This is what I was thinking: > The history of pasteurized milk, where the FDA, USDA, and state regulatory > bodies come in > The case law as far as mandated pasteurization (I am wondering about the > unpasteurized apple juice scare from a few years ago and how that was resolved) > Alternatives approaches to giving consumers access to raw dairy (in states > where sales are limited), and whether they have succeeded in court > Growing developments in the field > > Anyway, if you think this is an awful idea, let me know. But I am just > getting so upset, and, after tons of searching, having found little of > relevance, I think there's a gap in the information here... If there's any > solid work documenting these things, please let me know. Does this sound > like a worthy project? > > Ramit > > _________________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2002 Report Share Posted March 14, 2002 > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>Dennis says, " Ditto " ! and yes,yes yes, although I > > don't know what angle to approach the legal aspect of the problem. > > I know, we need to find a way to attract the very bored and very idle > rich to the WAP philosophy. Then they can subsidize dairy farmers > that are shut down for selling raw milk and pay for the legal costs. > > Its too bad that all the people that are into health are vegetarians. > I'll bet there are loads of rich vegetarians. If they could only go > vegan, we might get them down the road when they run out of B12, > iron, fat soluable vitamins and long chain omega-3's. I think maybe > we should promote both WAP and veganism! > > >>>>>>>>>>.I tried replying earlier but it didn't post. I've sort of gotten it reconstructed in my mind so here goes again. There's others interested in this real food/real milk, we will have to find them. Responding to the fellow on the Opra Show might find a new follower. I wouldn't exclude Opra. I heard Ed Bagely, JR is in some environmental issues,maybe he's our helper. It seems to me it's sort of, a, one convert at a time project except when the government issues the cease and desist orders. Like someone tonight said we want humane milk. A dairy farmer can't simply stop milking cause if they do the cows will be ruined (inhuman) and most likely will not ever be a dairy again. Cause no milk simply leads to bankruptcy for the dairy farmer. Dennis Kemnitz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2002 Report Share Posted March 14, 2002 ----- Original Message ----- From: " dkemnitz2000 " <dkemnitz2000@...> > Like someone tonight said we want humane milk. You may, but as long as it's healthful, I don't care. I think it's rather silly to say that an animal has no right to life, and that it's perfectly okay to kill it and eat it as long as you let it walk around in the backyard in the meantime. Now, if you could show me that it had a significant effect on the quality and nutritional value of the milk, that would interest me. But I see no point in concerning myself with the welfare of an animal which I'm perfectly willing to pay someone to kill on my behalf. Berg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2002 Report Share Posted March 14, 2002 --- In @y..., " dkemnitz2000 " <dkemnitz2000@y...> wrote: > I wouldn't exclude Opra. I'm just being cynical. I'd tape her show if Sally managed to get on. But while I haven't watched much Oprah, I'll bet that she has tons of advertisers like the " Dannon lite n fit " yogurt and whatnot - I don't think they'd appreciate hearing Sally speak of keeping the value added services at the farm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2002 Report Share Posted March 14, 2002 > > I wouldn't exclude Opra. > > I'm just being cynical. I'd tape her show if Sally managed to get on. > But while I haven't watched much Oprah, I'll bet that she has tons of > advertisers like the " Dannon lite n fit " yogurt and whatnot - I don't > think they'd appreciate hearing Sally speak of keeping the value > added services at the farm. > > >>>>>>>>>>>Getting Sally on some of those kinds of shows would probably be great for WAPF. I heard around 3 hours of her presentation in Nebraska last month. I thought her presentation was very professional. Not for me to critique other than my individual thoughts but again I felt her presentation is very good. I didn't think you excluded anyone, I'm just thinking you never know who's out there 'til we ask. Best regards, Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2002 Report Share Posted March 14, 2002 You guys talkign about oprah and low fat stuff? as I heard that she has forgone the no fat diets and now includes very ample amount of fat in her diet.- -- In @y..., " dkemnitz2000 " <dkemnitz2000@y...> wrote: > > > > I wouldn't exclude Opra. > > > > I'm just being cynical. I'd tape her show if Sally managed to get > on. > > But while I haven't watched much Oprah, I'll bet that she has tons > of > > advertisers like the " Dannon lite n fit " yogurt and whatnot - I > don't > > think they'd appreciate hearing Sally speak of keeping the value > > added services at the farm. > > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>Getting Sally on some of those kinds of shows would > probably be great for WAPF. I heard around 3 hours of her > presentation in Nebraska last month. I thought her presentation was > very professional. Not for me to critique other than my individual > thoughts but again I felt her presentation is very good. I didn't > think you excluded anyone, I'm just thinking you never know who's out > there 'til we ask. Best regards, Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2002 Report Share Posted March 14, 2002 Some things that might help your research: Farms that sell " shares " of their cows like Guidestone Dairy http://www.stewardshipcommunity.org/folders/store/milk/ Some of the cheesemaking sites that are fighting to be able to produce or keep producing raw milk cheese. http://www.cheesesociety.org/cgi-bin/features/showfeat.cgi?filename=rawmilk. 1 Here's one on the ban on interstate sale of raw milk http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/ANS00308.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2002 Report Share Posted March 14, 2002 >Ramit wrote: >Anyway, I was thinking of approaching one of the libertarian or >administrative law professors around here (preferably a libertarian admin >law prof) and asking whether I could write a paper on this topic. I hope to >dig up some good case law (or info) and get a nice article together that >could explore some of the issues and potentially be of use. YES! >My search last week was not optimistic, but it was only *one* state (nasty >VA!), and so much of this seems to be unchartered territory. > >Anyway, I wanted to get some ideas from all of you about pressing topics or >what specifically I should explore. This is what I was thinking: >The history of pasteurized milk, where the FDA, USDA, and state regulatory >bodies come in. Definitely. Perhaps you could do a public-choice type analysis of the history of mandatory pasteurization...who was pushing for it, and why? This would probably overlap into epidemiology a bit. >The case law as far as mandated pasteurization (I am wondering about the >unpasteurized apple juice scare from a few years ago and how that >was resolved) >Alternatives approaches to giving consumers access to raw dairy (in states >where sales are limited), and whether they have succeeded in court >Growing developments in the field > >Anyway, if you think this is an awful idea, let me know. No no...we NEED lawyer types doing this work! If this helps...I did a little digging for a piece on raw milk I wrote for a friend's political site (I'll send the URL when she posts it). The relevant Ohio law is § 917 of the Ohio Revised Code (which can be found at http://onlinedocs.andersonpublishing.com/revisedcode/). This is an excerpt from my article: A summary of the laws of the 50 states, Canada, and Britain can be found at http://www.realmilk.com/happening.html. The good news (such as it is) is that raw milk is still legal in just over half of all states. but what that means in practice can be illustrated by the Ohio statute: <blockquote>Ohio Revised Code: § 917.04 Sale and labeling of raw milk. No raw milk retailer shall sell, offer for sale, or expose for sale raw milk to the ultimate consumer except a raw milk retailer who, prior to October 31, 1965, was engaged continuously in the business of selling or offering for sale raw milk directly to ultimate consumers, holds a valid raw milk retailer license issued under section 917.09 of the Revised Code, and is subject to the rules regulating the sale of raw milk adopted under this chapter.</blockquote> How nice! There is ONE such producer in Ohio, in Yellow Springs. And there's no need to issue new raw milk retailer licences, because under this ordinance, they wouldn't be allowed to sell anyway. And without a licence, it's a 2nd degree misdemeanor the first time, a first degree misdemeanor each succeeding time, and each day counts as a separate charge. Federal law is this: <blockquote>http://www.fda.gov/opacom/morechoices/smallbusiness/blubook.htm#dair\ yprod Uniformity and adequacy of State milk production regulations is obtained through a model Pasteurized Milk Ordinance (PMO) developed and revised under FDA leadership. The PMO is the basis for the milk sanitation laws and regulations of 49 States, the District of Columbia, and over 2,000 local communities.</blockquote> (This is SOP for bureaucrats who want to override the 10th Amendment: design a model ordinance and then use some combination of carrot and stick to get local jurisdictions to adopt it.) <blockquote>Pasteurization is mandatory for all milk and milk products, in final package form, intended for direct human consumption after distribution in interstate commerce. The regulation (21 CFR 1240.61) defines pasteurization as heating and holding every particle of milk or milk product in properly designed and operated equipment at times and temperatures specified in the regulation. Exemptions are provided for acceptable alternative methods, such as the aging of certain cheeses.</blockquote> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2002 Report Share Posted March 15, 2002 Greetings, I forwarded this message to Sally who wanted me to tell you she would be interested in such an article and suggests that you look up the MN constitution which allows farmers to sell their products without a permit. Cheers, > > > >Anyway, I was thinking of approaching one of the libertarian or > >administrative law professors around here (preferably a libertarian admin > >law prof) and asking whether I could write a paper on this topic. I hope to > >dig up some good case law (or info) and get a nice article together that > >could explore some of the issues and potentially be of use. > > YES! > > >My search last week was not optimistic, but it was only *one* state (nasty > >VA!), and so much of this seems to be unchartered territory. > > > >Anyway, I wanted to get some ideas from all of you about pressing topics or > >what specifically I should explore. This is what I was thinking: > >The history of pasteurized milk, where the FDA, USDA, and state regulatory > >bodies come in. > > Definitely. Perhaps you could do a public-choice type analysis of the > history of mandatory pasteurization...who was pushing for it, and > why? This would probably overlap into epidemiology a bit. > > >The case law as far as mandated pasteurization (I am wondering about the > >unpasteurized apple juice scare from a few years ago and how that > >was resolved) > >Alternatives approaches to giving consumers access to raw dairy (in states > >where sales are limited), and whether they have succeeded in court > >Growing developments in the field > > > >Anyway, if you think this is an awful idea, let me know. > > No no...we NEED lawyer types doing this work! > > If this helps...I did a little digging for a piece on raw milk I > wrote for a friend's political site (I'll send the URL when she posts > it). The relevant Ohio law is § 917 of the Ohio Revised Code (which > can be found at > http://onlinedocs.andersonpublishing.com/revisedcode/). > snip.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2002 Report Share Posted March 15, 2002 Ramit, You may want to contact a lawyer mentioned in http://www.karlloren.com/aajonus/p25.htm. He seems like somebody who'd have lots of facts you could use. Roman Ramit wrote: > Hello all, > > I have gotten really upset recently about the way that farmers who are > involved in the production of raw dairy products are being singled out. > Having read about the " new " pasteurized eggs, I really worry that this will > be next. > > If there's any > solid work documenting these things, please let me know. Does this sound > like a worthy project? > > Ramit > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2002 Report Share Posted March 15, 2002 > Ramit, > > You may want to contact a lawyer mentioned in > http://www.karlloren.com/aajonus/p25.htm. He seems like somebody who'd have lots of > facts you could use. > wow, great story. What good news. I wonder how feasible it would be to start a 'raw milk defense fund'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2002 Report Share Posted March 15, 2002 , Isn't that basically what the Weston A. Price Foundation is? Perhaps it is that, and then some... " justinbond " <justin_bond@ho tmail.com> cc: Subject: Re: A request for ideas 03/15/2002 12:22 AM Please respond to native-nutritio n > Ramit, > > You may want to contact a lawyer mentioned in > http://www.karlloren.com/aajonus/p25.htm. He seems like somebody who'd have lots of > facts you could use. > wow, great story. What good news. I wonder how feasible it would be to start a 'raw milk defense fund'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2002 Report Share Posted March 15, 2002 >, > >Isn't that basically what the Weston A. Price Foundation is? Perhaps it is >that, and then some... > > I wasn't aware that they did the kind of legal activity that " defense fund " implies. What we really need is a well-funded bunch of lawyers who can not only support farmers charged under the current laws, but who can challenge the laws. Unfortunately, that takes money...and we're spending it all on quality food. :-) -- Quick www.en.com/users/jaquick " One of these days someone smarter and younger and more articulate than I is going to get through to the American people just how really messed up it has become. And when that happens, the American people are going to rise up like that football crowd in Cleveland and run both teams off the field. " --Sen. Zell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.