Re: grass-fed dairy

[Guest guest]

Just guessing---hay?

Joy schrieb:

>

> This time of year in Michigan (where fresh green grass is not found) what

> should a dairy cow eat?

>

> Thanks,

> Joy

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

-

>Just guessing---hay?

Hay, grass sileage and root vegetables. (I don't know exactly which root

vegetables they're supposed to eat, but I've heard that turnips are good.)

-

[Guest guest]

Sounds yummy. Maybe my body is telling me something, but hay and sileage sounds

good to me <S>.

When I visit the bio-farm, the cows are all lined up inside, feeding on hay but

there's something

else....it looks kind of mossy, or like ground up green stuff, and smells sweet.

Idol schrieb:

>

> -

>

> >Just guessing---hay?

>

> Hay, grass sileage and root vegetables. (I don't know exactly which root

> vegetables they're supposed to eat, but I've heard that turnips are good.)

>

> -

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

What is grass sileage? I'm picturing mowing my lawn and storing it in a silo.

(grin)

----- Original Message -----

From: Idol

Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 4:24 PM

Subject: Re: grass-fed dairy

-

>Just guessing---hay?

Hay, grass sileage and root vegetables. (I don't know exactly which root

vegetables they're supposed to eat, but I've heard that turnips are good.)

-

[Guest guest]

silage is when all the corn plants are taken minus the cobs and

ground up and put in the silo to ferment.

haylege is chopped hay (green grass)(usually alfalfa) put in the silo

and fermented.

DMM

> ,

>

> What is grass sileage? I'm picturing mowing my lawn and storing it

in a silo. (grin)

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Idol

> @y...

> Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 4:24 PM

> Subject: Re: grass-fed dairy

>

>

> -

>

> >Just guessing---hay?

>

> Hay, grass sileage and root vegetables. (I don't know exactly

which root

> vegetables they're supposed to eat, but I've heard that turnips

are good.)

>

>

>

>

> -

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Just as you can chop corn stalks and put it up in a silo in moist form, so

you can also chop green alfalfa hay or green grass hay and put it up the

same way. FYI, corn is also a grass...so I'm not at all sure that corn

sileage (chopped immature corn stalks with attached cobs) is such a bad

thing either.

-----Original Message-----

From: Conway [mailto:mclcdcmcmc@...]

Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 6:12 AM

Subject: Re: grass-fed dairy

,

What is grass sileage? I'm picturing mowing my lawn and storing it in a

silo. (grin)

----- Original Message -----

From: Idol

Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 4:24 PM

Subject: Re: grass-fed dairy

-

>Just guessing---hay?

Hay, grass sileage and root vegetables. (I don't know exactly which root

vegetables they're supposed to eat, but I've heard that turnips are good.)

-

[Guest guest]

That's correct except that it's not generally minus the cobs. The cobs are

typically immature (usually at about the same stage as very early sweet

corn) but they are still part of the sileage. If there's no cobs visible in

what appears to be sileage, then either it was probably chopped when the

corn was very immature or else it's sorghum sorghum sileage not corn.

I have heard of people feeding the stalk that remains after the cobs have

been harvested, but this is a relatively low quality feed and not very

commonly used as far as I know.

-----Original Message-----

From: drmichaelmarasco [mailto:mmarasco@...]

Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 7:46 AM

Subject: Re: grass-fed dairy

silage is when all the corn plants are taken minus the cobs and

ground up and put in the silo to ferment.

haylege is chopped hay (green grass)(usually alfalfa) put in the silo

and fermented.

DMM

[Guest guest]

My in-laws are small time dairy farmers in the heart of dairyland

wisconsin and they state unequivocally that the cobs are harvested

prior to making silage as the cobs are use elsewhere. Whether that's

how it should be done or not is not my area of expertise, this is

simply how the farmers say the farmers do it.

DMM

> That's correct except that it's not generally minus the cobs. The

cobs are

> typically immature (usually at about the same stage as very early

sweet

> corn) but they are still part of the sileage. If there's no cobs

visible in

> what appears to be sileage, then either it was probably chopped

when the

> corn was very immature or else it's sorghum sorghum sileage not

corn.

>

> I have heard of people feeding the stalk that remains after the

cobs have

> been harvested, but this is a relatively low quality feed and not

very

> commonly used as far as I know.

>

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: drmichaelmarasco [mailto:mmarasco@c...]

> Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 7:46 AM

> @y...

> Subject: Re: grass-fed dairy

>

>

> silage is when all the corn plants are taken minus the cobs and

> ground up and put in the silo to ferment.

>

> haylege is chopped hay (green grass)(usually alfalfa) put in the

silo

> and fermented.

>

> DMM

[Guest guest]

DMM wrote:

> My in-laws are small time dairy farmers in the heart of dairyland

> wisconsin and they state unequivocally that the cobs are harvested

> prior to making silage as the cobs are use elsewhere. Whether that's

> how it should be done or not is not my area of expertise, this is

> simply how the farmers say the farmers do it.

They may very well do that. I don't think it's a matter of how it " should "

or " should not " be done. The trade off of having the harvested kernels may

be more valuable to them in their specific operation than the silage is.

However, just from a standpoint of definitions, corn silage does typically

include the entire plant. Corn stover silage (or just 'stover silage') is

silage using just the stalks, but it's not the same stuff. I didn't even

know that people did such a thing, but I was able to find some information

on it here:

http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Publications/DR16.pdf

For more information on typical considerations in growing, harvesting and

feeding corn as silage here are a few links:

http://agguide.agronomy.psu.edu/sect4/sec46b.htm (this includes a great jpeg

of freshly chopped corn silage)

http://corn.agronomy.wisc.edu/fisc/corn/silage/silage.htm

http://www.agronomy.psu.edu/Extension/Facts/agfact18.pdf

Chopping silage was one of the few crop harvests that I enjoyed as a kid.

One reason was just that I was lazy and it didn't involve lifting bales or

anything odious, but I also really liked the smells and colors. The sweet

smell of the freshly chopped silage and the bright emerald green of the

silage pouring into the silo loader...

-----Original Message-----

From: drmichaelmarasco [mailto:mmarasco@...]

Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 11:39 AM

Subject: Re: grass-fed dairy

My in-laws are small time dairy farmers in the heart of dairyland

wisconsin and they state unequivocally that the cobs are harvested

prior to making silage as the cobs are use elsewhere. Whether that's

how it should be done or not is not my area of expertise, this is

simply how the farmers say the farmers do it.

DMM

[Guest guest]

-

>FYI, corn is also a grass...so I'm not at all sure that corn

>sileage (chopped immature corn stalks with attached cobs) is such a bad

>thing either.

I couldn't say authoritatively either, but bear in mind that all modern

crops have been bred to the point that they barely resemble their natural

forebears. While cows in the wild might have munched on a tiny bit of

" grain " when grasses were going to seed, that grain would in no way have

resembled modern corn, wheat, etc., and it certainly wouldn't have been

consumed in the kind of quantities they're given nowadays.

So on balance I'd want to avoid any kind of grain silage, if only on the

precautionary principle.

-

[Guest guest]

-

>What is grass sileage? I'm picturing mowing my lawn and storing it in a

>silo. (grin)

Actually, that's basically what you'd do. <g> Silage is made in many

ways, but it amounts to taking grass or corn or what have you and storing

it in a silo damp such that it ferments. IMO the safest and best silage to

feed cows is grass silage rather than silage from crops like corn which are

bad for the cows to begin with, though I suppose it's possible that the

pre-fermentation renders it edible or less harmful.

-

[Guest guest]

Another way my dad makes a haylage is he bales up the hay at a higher moisture

content and wraps each individual bale. They look like big marshmallows since

the wrap is white. The hay then ferments in the wrap.

Grace,

a Augustine

I wish you enough sun to keep your attitude bright.

I wish you enough rain to appreciate the sun more.

I wish you enough happiness to keep your spirit alive.

I wish you enough pain so that the smallest joys in life appear much bigger.

I wish you enough gain to satisfy your wanting.

I wish you enough loss to appreciate all that you possess.

I wish you enough ''Hello's " to get you through the final goodbye.

--anonymous

----- Original Message -----

From: Kroyer

' '

Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 11:34 AM

Subject: RE: Re: grass-fed dairy

That's correct except that it's not generally minus the cobs. The cobs are

typically immature (usually at about the same stage as very early sweet

corn) but they are still part of the sileage. If there's no cobs visible in

what appears to be sileage, then either it was probably chopped when the

corn was very immature or else it's sorghum sorghum sileage not corn.

I have heard of people feeding the stalk that remains after the cobs have

been harvested, but this is a relatively low quality feed and not very

commonly used as far as I know.

-----Original Message-----

From: drmichaelmarasco [mailto:mmarasco@...]

Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 7:46 AM

Subject: Re: grass-fed dairy

silage is when all the corn plants are taken minus the cobs and

ground up and put in the silo to ferment.

haylege is chopped hay (green grass)(usually alfalfa) put in the silo

and fermented.

DMM

[Guest guest]

>IMO the safest and best silage to feed cows is grass silage rather >than silage

from crops like corn which are bad for the cows to begin >with,

What would you say to open pollinated corn? I know there is some 'breeding' with

these as well but it would not be a hybred.

Grace,

a Augustine

I wish you enough sun to keep your attitude bright.

I wish you enough rain to appreciate the sun more.

I wish you enough happiness to keep your spirit alive.

I wish you enough pain so that the smallest joys in life appear much bigger.

I wish you enough gain to satisfy your wanting.

I wish you enough loss to appreciate all that you possess.

I wish you enough ''Hello's " to get you through the final goodbye.

--anonymous

[Guest guest]

> >IMO the safest and best silage to feed cows is grass silage

>rather >than silage from crops like corn which are bad for the cows

>to begin >with,

>

>What would you say to open pollinated corn? I know there is some

>'breeding' with these as well but it would not be a hybred.

I'm really not convinced it would make any substantive difference.

The only real difference is that OP corns breed true to type and

hybrids don't. They're still modern cereal grains with selected genes.

[Guest guest]

,

Why doesn't the sileage turn into compost?

leslie

----- Original Message -----

From: Idol

Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 1:59 PM

Subject: Re: grass-fed dairy

-

>What is grass sileage? I'm picturing mowing my lawn and storing it in a

>silo. (grin)

Actually, that's basically what you'd do. <g> Silage is made in many

ways, but it amounts to taking grass or corn or what have you and storing

it in a silo damp such that it ferments. IMO the safest and best silage to

feed cows is grass silage rather than silage from crops like corn which are

bad for the cows to begin with, though I suppose it's possible that the

pre-fermentation renders it edible or less harmful.

-

[Guest guest]

-

>Why doesn't the sileage turn into compost?

A couple reasons, though I don't know that much about making silage. In my

experience, composting plain grass clippings isn't the easiest thing to

do. Also, I believe silage is sometimes made with a bacterial inoculant to

make sure the correct organisms are active in the silage. But it probably

comes down to the length of time as well as the nature of the starting

material -- I always added manure to my compost, and whenever I included

grass clippings I dispersed them as much as possible through the rest of

the composting material.

-

[Guest guest]

a-

>What would you say to open pollinated corn? I know there is some

>'breeding' with these as well but it would not be a hybred.

Well, I personally would say no. Look at it this way -- why would you pick

corn, even open pollinated? Nutritionally and evolutionarily, natural

grasses are more suitable.

-

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> I'm really not convinced it would make any substantive difference.

> The only real difference is that OP corns breed true to type and

> hybrids don't. They're still modern cereal grains with selected genes.

Not that we shouldn't strive for better, but most forages are actually

hybrids too...

Not many farmers (other than hobbyists and ultra-niche marketers) are

letting their pastures go to wild seeded grasses. Even grass-based farmers

order drought resistant, disease resistant, insect resistant, heat tolerant,

rapid growth " improved " versions of the various forages whenever they can.

[Guest guest]

>Look at it this way -- why would you pick corn, even open >pollinated?

Nutritionally and evolutionarily, natural grasses are >more suitable.

Our cows have been hybred as well, so we shouldn't drink their milk then... How

far would you carry this? Can our hybred cows make it on the ancient grains or

do we need to also hybred their feed. One argument I had heard against pure

grass fed cows is they are way too skinny and do not look healthy. I am not

against pasturing animals with native grasses, just wondering if it is best?

Maybe we should just have a feild that is as fertile as we can get it, plant

half with natural grasses and the other half with more hybred grasses and let

them decide instead of trying to figure it all out!

Grace,

a Augustine

I wish you enough sun to keep your attitude bright.

I wish you enough rain to appreciate the sun more.

I wish you enough happiness to keep your spirit alive.

I wish you enough pain so that the smallest joys in life appear much bigger.

I wish you enough gain to satisfy your wanting.

I wish you enough loss to appreciate all that you possess.

I wish you enough ''Hello's " to get you through the final goodbye.

--anonymous

[Guest guest]

a-

>Our cows have been hybred as well, so we shouldn't drink their milk

>then... How far would you carry this? Can our hybred cows make it on the

>ancient grains or do we need to also hybred their feed.

Well, basically, I'd say carry it as far as you reasonably can. If you can

get raw milk from grass-fed traditional breeds, by all means do! If you

can't, go to the next best. Etc. I don't know what kind of cows you have,

but modern and hybrid varieties have been designed for yield at the expense

of quality. I have no idea what the last word on which traditional breed

is best -- and I'd imagine that word depends on all kinds of local

conditions, including climate -- but while I've bought milk and cream and

butter from Holsteins when that's all I could find, I much prefer Jersey

cow dairy.

As to grains, I wouldn't say they're good for even hybrid and

selectively-bred cows, because the entire digestive system of ruminants is

geared towards natural grasses and isn't prepared for modern grains at

all. It would take a lot of evolution (or genetic engineering) to change

that. Grains also disturb the EFA balance in the meat (and, AFAIK, dairy)

of cows fed grains at the expense of grass. The n3-n6 ratio in grass-fed

cows is roughly even, but in grain-fed cows the n6 fat can outnumber the n3

fat by 20:1, which is very unhealthy in the long run.

Straying even further into the realm of blind speculation, I'd prefer

Holstein dairy from grass-fed Holsteins to Jersey dairy from grain-fed

Jersey cows. <g>

>One argument I had heard against pure grass fed cows is they are way too

>skinny and do not look healthy.

Like I said, I'm no expert in livestock or farming, but my guess would be

that unhealthy-looking grass-fed cows were fed on poor soil, and perhaps

didn't get varied enough (or sufficient) food. A cow should probably eat

many varieties of grass, as well as some weeds and maybe a little roughage

from the legume family. Cows evolved on grass and can look splendidly

healthy on their natural feed. That said, they will tend to be skinnier

than grain-fed cows, because grain fattens up cows in a way their natural

diet doesn't. (Some people make this a selling point for their grass-fed

beef, though I'm less interested in the total fat content of the animal

than in the quality of the fat it has.)

-

[Guest guest]

Hey Doc Mike

Corn silage is the whole plant ground up including the cob. The corn is

usually in what is called the milk stage or very similiar to sweet corn when

we eat it.

All for now

drmichaelmarasco wrote:

> silage is when all the corn plants are taken minus the cobs and

> ground up and put in the silo to ferment.

>

> haylege is chopped hay (green grass)(usually alfalfa) put in the silo

> and fermented.

>

> DMM

>

>

> > ,

> >

> > What is grass sileage? I'm picturing mowing my lawn and storing it

> in a silo. (grin)

> >

> >

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: Idol

> > @y...

> > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 4:24 PM

> > Subject: Re: grass-fed dairy

> >

> >

> > -

> >

> > >Just guessing---hay?

> >

> > Hay, grass sileage and root vegetables. (I don't know exactly

> which root

> > vegetables they're supposed to eat, but I've heard that turnips

> are good.)

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > -

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

In Switzerland, the pastures are full of weeds, but they are called herbs, and

the milk that comes

from far up on the alps, where the herbs have extra medicinal qualities, is

considered especially

healthy and tastey. (Maybe this is the secret of Swiss chocolate.)

In response to an earlier post: one reason cows might not eat clover and soy is

that these contain a

lot of plant-estrogen--a plant device to limit the fertility of animals. I've

not heard of animals

avoiding these, but it's a thought.

J.

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:09:17 +0100 son

<hjacobson@...> writes:

In Switzerland, the pastures are full of weeds, but they are called

herbs, and the milk that comes

from far up on the alps, where the herbs have extra medicinal qualities,

is considered especially

healthy and tastey. (Maybe this is the secret of Swiss chocolate.)

,

Some of us call them herbs here as well :-)

Bianca

[Guest guest]

Clover is toxic to livestock if its rotted. Is to humans too. This site says

alsike clover has a different toxin than white or yellow clover

<http://www.vet.purdue.edu/depts/addl/toxic/by_alpha.htm>http://www.vet.pur

due.edu/depts/addl/toxic/by_alpha.htm

The red clover thats getting big in the supplement world as a substitute for

the estrogens in soy contains coumarins that thin blood too. Just what a

menopausal woman needs....yuh! If the world would only stop pulling the active

constituents out of food to make money and concentrate on the health of the

plant and soil there'd be more quality food like real Swiss chocolate. :-)

Wanita

At 08:09 AM 3/12/02 +0100, you wrote:

>In Switzerland, the pastures are full of weeds, but they are called herbs,

and

the milk that comes

>from far up on the alps, where the herbs have extra medicinal qualities, is

considered especially

>healthy and tastey. (Maybe this is the secret of Swiss chocolate.)

>In response to an earlier post: one reason cows might not eat clover and soy

is that these contain a

>lot of plant-estrogen--a plant device to limit the fertility of animals. I've

not heard of animals

>avoiding these, but it's a thought.

>

> J.