Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 > Hi again! > > In NT, Sally Fallon says that the intrinsic factor is not able to > recognise vit B12 from plant sources. I've not been able to find > references for this. Does anyone know the studies behind this > statement? > > Thanks, > > son Sure, this is acknowledged by responsible vegans: http://www.veganoutreach.org/health/b12.html and non-vegans: http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat- toc7.shtml#vit%20B-12 HTH, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 > , thanks, I've alrady read through both those sites, and, call me dense but I couldn't find > the statement repeated exactly or any study references for Sally's specific concept that intrinsic > factor cannot pick up on plant B12. " Enterohepatic circulation can help remove B12 analogues (especially noncobalamin corrinoids) that find their way into circulation by dumping them in the intestine where they will not be picked up by IF, and will therefore be excreted.47 " is in the first article. > They say many other things to show that plant forms of B12 are > not sufficient, but not this exactly. :-( son > > > < Sure, this is acknowledged by responsible vegans: > > http://www.veganoutreach.org/health/b12.html > > and non-vegans: > > http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat- > toc7.shtml#vit%20B-12 > > > HTH, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 Bless you!! See, I am dense! justinbond schrieb: > > > > , thanks, I've alrady read through both those sites, and, > call me dense but I couldn't find > > the statement repeated exactly or any study references for Sally's > specific concept that intrinsic > > factor cannot pick up on plant B12. > > " Enterohepatic circulation can help remove B12 analogues (especially > noncobalamin corrinoids) that find their way into circulation by > dumping them in the intestine where they will not be picked up by IF, > and will therefore be excreted.47 " > > is in the first article. > > > > > They say many other things to show that plant forms of B12 are > > not sufficient, but not this exactly. :-( son > > > > > > < Sure, this is acknowledged by responsible vegans: > > > > http://www.veganoutreach.org/health/b12.html > > > > and non-vegans: > > > > http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat- > > toc7.shtml#vit%20B-12 > > > > > HTH, > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 , I just remembered what's wrong with this. Plants may contain both true B12 and analogues. Saying that IF won't latch onto the analogues is not yet saying that it won't latch on to the true B12 found in plants. son justinbond schrieb: > > > > , thanks, I've alrady read through both those sites, and, > call me dense but I couldn't find > > the statement repeated exactly or any study references for Sally's > specific concept that intrinsic > > factor cannot pick up on plant B12. > > " Enterohepatic circulation can help remove B12 analogues (especially > noncobalamin corrinoids) that find their way into circulation by > dumping them in the intestine where they will not be picked up by IF, > and will therefore be excreted.47 " > > is in the first article. > > > > > They say many other things to show that plant forms of B12 are > > not sufficient, but not this exactly. :-( son > > > > > > < Sure, this is acknowledged by responsible vegans: > > > > http://www.veganoutreach.org/health/b12.html > > > > and non-vegans: > > > > http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat- > > toc7.shtml#vit%20B-12 > > > > > HTH, > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 - >Plants may contain both true B12 and analogues. Saying >that IF won't latch onto the analogues is not yet saying that it won't >latch on to the true B12 >found in plants. AFAIK no plant contains true B12, and the B12 activity of all analogs varies and is inferior to real B12, so plants simply can't provide the body B12. From Dr. Byrnes' debate on vegetarianism: >>There is not real B12 in plant sources but B12 analogues-- they are >>similar to true B12, but not exactly the same and because of this they >>are not bioavailable (13). It should be noted here that these B12 >>analogues can impair absorption of true vitamin B12 in the body due to >>competitive absorption, placing vegans and vegetarians who consume lots >>of soy, algae, and yeast at a greater risk for a deficiency (14). >>13. (a) PC Dagnelie and others. Vitamin B12 from algae appears not to be >>bioavailable. Amer J Clin Nutr, 1991, 53:695-7; ( L Lazarides. The >>Nutritional Health Bible. (Thorsons Publishing; CA), 1997, 22-23; © V >>Herbert. Vitamin B12: plant sources, requirements, and assay. Amer J Clin >>Nutr, 1988, 48:852-8. >> >>14. (a) IE Baille. The first international congress on vegetarian >>nutrition. J Appl Nutr, 1987, 39:97-105; ( A . Soybeans: Chemistry >> & Technology, vol 1 (Avi Publishing Co; CT), 1972, 184-188. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 I ran into this controversy some time ago. I checked with Cyanotech, growers of Hawaiian spirulina. Check out SPBUL-52 at: http://www.cyanotech.com/html/spir/techbul.html See comments below. --snip-- > From Dr. Byrnes' debate on vegetarianism: > > >>There is not real B12 in plant sources but B12 analogues-- they are > >>similar to true B12, but not exactly the same and because of this they > >>are not bioavailable (13). Spirulina (algae) contains 2.5 micrograms of true B-12 per 3 gram serving. The other 64% of B-12 in spirulina is analog. It should be noted here that these B12 > >>analogues can impair absorption of true vitamin B12 in the body due to > >>competitive absorption, placing vegans and vegetarians who consume lots > >>of soy, algae, and yeast at a greater risk for a deficiency (14). The human body is accustomed to differentiating between true and analog B-12 because analogs are prevelant in the food supply. Cyanotech of course claims that the presence of analogs will not inhibit absorption of true B-12. One study did indicate that B-12 deficiency can be masked by the presence of anologs in the blood being assayed as true B-12 during blood analysis (insensitive test). And, of course, if the liver and other organs of digestion/detoxification are not healthy, there is more risk of limiting absorption of true B-12 and excretion of analog. Portland, OR > >>13. (a) PC Dagnelie and others. Vitamin B12 from algae appears not to be > >>bioavailable. Amer J Clin Nutr, 1991, 53:695-7; ( L Lazarides. The > >>Nutritional Health Bible. (Thorsons Publishing; CA), 1997, 22-23; © V > >>Herbert. Vitamin B12: plant sources, requirements, and assay. Amer J Clin > >>Nutr, 1988, 48:852-8. > >> > >>14. (a) IE Baille. The first international congress on vegetarian > >>nutrition. J Appl Nutr, 1987, 39:97-105; ( A . Soybeans: Chemistry > >> & Technology, vol 1 (Avi Publishing Co; CT), 1972, 184-188. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2002 Report Share Posted March 3, 2002 What this amounts to is that plants are capable of producing B12 that can be used by humans. There were some references to this on one of the other sites as well, though to other plants. It appears that Sally Fallon's statement that the intrinsic factor does not bind to B12 from plants is not referenced. From everything I've read, it seems that Sally Fallon misspoke or simplified, or perhaps she actually had a wrong understanding of the subject. This is sad. When I quoted her to another email list I was told, " Still another reason Fallon has invented for vegetarianism not working " . It's indescribably important for authorities to get their facts straight (and for the rest of us, too). Now I know I can't quote her on this, and that these kinds of statements have brought her (and Enig) some disrepute in certain circles. son sraosha87 schrieb: > > I ran into this controversy some time ago. I checked with Cyanotech, > growers of Hawaiian spirulina. Check out SPBUL-52 at: > > http://www.cyanotech.com/html/spir/techbul.html > > See comments below. > > > --snip-- > > From Dr. Byrnes' debate on vegetarianism: > > > > >>There is not real B12 in plant sources but B12 analogues-- they > are > > >>similar to true B12, but not exactly the same and because of this > they > > >>are not bioavailable (13). > > Spirulina (algae) contains 2.5 micrograms of true B-12 per 3 gram > serving. The other 64% of B-12 in spirulina is analog. > > It should be noted here that these B12 > > >>analogues can impair absorption of true vitamin B12 in the body > due to > > >>competitive absorption, placing vegans and vegetarians who consume > lots > > >>of soy, algae, and yeast at a greater risk for a deficiency (14). > > The human body is accustomed to differentiating between true and > analog B-12 because analogs are prevelant in the food supply. > Cyanotech of course claims that the presence of analogs will not > inhibit absorption of true B-12. One study did indicate that B-12 > deficiency can be masked by the presence of anologs in the blood being > assayed as true B-12 during blood analysis (insensitive test). And, > of course, if the liver and other organs of digestion/detoxification > are not healthy, there is more risk of limiting absorption of true > B-12 and excretion of analog. > > > Portland, OR > > > >>13. (a) PC Dagnelie and others. Vitamin B12 from algae appears not > to be > > >>bioavailable. Amer J Clin Nutr, 1991, 53:695-7; ( L Lazarides. > The > > >>Nutritional Health Bible. (Thorsons Publishing; CA), 1997, 22-23; > © V > > >>Herbert. Vitamin B12: plant sources, requirements, and assay. Amer > J Clin > > >>Nutr, 1988, 48:852-8. > > >> > > >>14. (a) IE Baille. The first international congress on vegetarian > > >>nutrition. J Appl Nutr, 1987, 39:97-105; ( A . Soybeans: > Chemistry > > >> & Technology, vol 1 (Avi Publishing Co; CT), 1972, 184-188. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2002 Report Share Posted March 4, 2002 <snip> >it seems that Sally Fallon misspoke or simplified, or > perhaps she actually had a wrong understanding of the subject. > > This is sad. When I quoted her to another email list I was told, " Still another reason Fallon has > invented for vegetarianism not working " . It's indescribably important for authorities to get their > facts straight (and for the rest of us, too). I've got friends who are completely up in arms against Sally and Weston Price. I've had to completely stop all conversations even vaguely related to food or nutrition because it's so out of hand. What I hear continuously is " She's just a front for the New Zealand Beef Council. " Where does this idea come from? I got kicked off another list recently for trying to explain--very gently--that monocropping grain was not a solution for environmental destruction. Food is like religion. It's really, really hard to have useful conversations with fundamentalists, and there's a very strong strain of that in the vegan movement (I should know, after spending 18 years there). And people will pounce on small misstatements or inaccuracies when their worldview is threatened. For myself, I don't want to be an NT fanatic. There's nothing like the fervor of a convert--to turn people off. And I want to stay open to new information, because so much of what I thought was right turned out to be so wrong. Lierre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2002 Report Share Posted March 4, 2002 " it seems that Sally Fallon misspoke or simplified, or perhaps she actually had a wrong understanding of the subject. This is sad. When I quoted her to another email list I was told, " Still another... " , This is not sad. I must say that the notion that experts in a certain field are somehow superhuman and never have a misunderstanding or make a mistake or are unclear in their descriptions or whatever is the actual sad part. If you are communicating with vegetarians (of which I was for the better part of 8 years) I can reference hundreds of vegetarian authorities mis - speaking almost ad nauseum. Although I would like to hear Sally comment on this, it really is of no consequence. I have been in the health care and sciences field for many years now as an insider, I have seen how the propaganda and research machine works. In my opinion the only reason NT holds any water at all is Prices research. This is not some fad diet that people should follow, it is not based on modern day research lunacy. Ocassionally it is confirmed by that, however the research machine has become so unreliable who cares. I guarantee you that if we could get a grant and spend enough money and get enough researchers to go along with it I could prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that the woman you were born from is not really your mother and you were actually born to a frog. (Please don't think I mean this literally or that I am saying bad things about you or your family. I am just trying to show you how in the land of research/ " science " in 2002 the facts are rarely relevant and are frequently manipulated to prove someones point. As you probably already know. I support the notion of questioning what we know but with ethics and common sense neither of which are pandemic in research today. So just because Sally may have or may not have made an error this is not sad. And I can promise you that she will make another one. Not because she's a moron but just because she's human. And to somehow think that her credibility or knowlege is compromised based on one comment is silly. I am not saying you feel her credibility is compromised but for anyone who does that's their own problem. An example of this is Robbins of " diet for a new america " fame. is a good and honorable man and speaks extremely accurately and has huge credibility on certain topics. When it comes to sustainable nutrition for humans he doesn't have a clue, but that doesn't mean he lacks credibility in the other areas. I think we need to rely a bit more on ourselves and not be so brutal to the " experts " after all we gave them that title anyway. As for the vegetarian/vegan discussion. There need be only one question or demand the vegetarian/vegans need be posed - Find any long term surviving productive cultures who did not consume any animal products. Until the person your speaking with can do that they have NO grounds for criticizing anyone. I really appreciate your verve and interest in you own well being, keep up the good work. Sincerely, Dr. Marasco,BS,DC Cincinnati, Oh > > --snip-- > > > From Dr. Byrnes' debate on vegetarianism: > > > > > > >>There is not real B12 in plant sources but B12 analogues-- they > > are > > > >>similar to true B12, but not exactly the same and because of this > > they > > > >>are not bioavailable (13). > > > > Spirulina (algae) contains 2.5 micrograms of true B-12 per 3 gram > > serving. The other 64% of B-12 in spirulina is analog. > > > > It should be noted here that these B12 > > > >>analogues can impair absorption of true vitamin B12 in the body > > due to > > > >>competitive absorption, placing vegans and vegetarians who consume > > lots > > > >>of soy, algae, and yeast at a greater risk for a deficiency (14). > > > > The human body is accustomed to differentiating between true and > > analog B-12 because analogs are prevelant in the food supply. > > Cyanotech of course claims that the presence of analogs will not > > inhibit absorption of true B-12. One study did indicate that B-12 > > deficiency can be masked by the presence of anologs in the blood being > > assayed as true B-12 during blood analysis (insensitive test). And, > > of course, if the liver and other organs of digestion/detoxification > > are not healthy, there is more risk of limiting absorption of true > > B-12 and excretion of analog. > > > > > > Portland, OR > > > > > >>13. (a) PC Dagnelie and others. Vitamin B12 from algae appears not > > to be > > > >>bioavailable. Amer J Clin Nutr, 1991, 53:695-7; ( L Lazarides. > > The > > > >>Nutritional Health Bible. (Thorsons Publishing; CA), 1997, 22- 23; > > © V > > > >>Herbert. Vitamin B12: plant sources, requirements, and assay. Amer > > J Clin > > > >>Nutr, 1988, 48:852-8. > > > >> > > > >>14. (a) IE Baille. The first international congress on vegetarian > > > >>nutrition. J Appl Nutr, 1987, 39:97-105; ( A . Soybeans: > > Chemistry > > > >> & Technology, vol 1 (Avi Publishing Co; CT), 1972, 184-188. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2002 Report Share Posted March 4, 2002 Dr. Marasco, Just wanted to say thank you for your very thoughtful response to this issue. I am continually impressed with your posts. Sincerely, Conway ----- Original Message ----- From: drmichaelmarasco Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 7:30 AM Subject: Re: Uptake of Vit. B12 " it seems that Sally Fallon misspoke or simplified, or perhaps she actually had a wrong understanding of the subject. This is sad. When I quoted her to another email list I was told, " Still another... " , This is not sad. I must say that the notion that experts in a certain field are somehow superhuman and never have a misunderstanding or make a mistake or are unclear in their descriptions or whatever is the actual sad part. If you are communicating with vegetarians (of which I was for the better part of 8 years) I can reference hundreds of vegetarian authorities mis - speaking almost ad nauseum. Although I would like to hear Sally comment on this, it really is of no consequence. I have been in the health care and sciences field for many years now as an insider, I have seen how the propaganda and research machine works. In my opinion the only reason NT holds any water at all is Prices research. This is not some fad diet that people should follow, it is not based on modern day research lunacy. Ocassionally it is confirmed by that, however the research machine has become so unreliable who cares. I guarantee you that if we could get a grant and spend enough money and get enough researchers to go along with it I could prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that the woman you were born from is not really your mother and you were actually born to a frog. (Please don't think I mean this literally or that I am saying bad things about you or your family. I am just trying to show you how in the land of research/ " science " in 2002 the facts are rarely relevant and are frequently manipulated to prove someones point. As you probably already know. I support the notion of questioning what we know but with ethics and common sense neither of which are pandemic in research today. So just because Sally may have or may not have made an error this is not sad. And I can promise you that she will make another one. Not because she's a moron but just because she's human. And to somehow think that her credibility or knowlege is compromised based on one comment is silly. I am not saying you feel her credibility is compromised but for anyone who does that's their own problem. An example of this is Robbins of " diet for a new america " fame. is a good and honorable man and speaks extremely accurately and has huge credibility on certain topics. When it comes to sustainable nutrition for humans he doesn't have a clue, but that doesn't mean he lacks credibility in the other areas. I think we need to rely a bit more on ourselves and not be so brutal to the " experts " after all we gave them that title anyway. As for the vegetarian/vegan discussion. There need be only one question or demand the vegetarian/vegans need be posed - Find any long term surviving productive cultures who did not consume any animal products. Until the person your speaking with can do that they have NO grounds for criticizing anyone. I really appreciate your verve and interest in you own well being, keep up the good work. Sincerely, Dr. Marasco,BS,DC Cincinnati, Oh > > --snip-- > > > From Dr. Byrnes' debate on vegetarianism: > > > > > > >>There is not real B12 in plant sources but B12 analogues-- they > > are > > > >>similar to true B12, but not exactly the same and because of this > > they > > > >>are not bioavailable (13). > > > > Spirulina (algae) contains 2.5 micrograms of true B-12 per 3 gram > > serving. The other 64% of B-12 in spirulina is analog. > > > > It should be noted here that these B12 > > > >>analogues can impair absorption of true vitamin B12 in the body > > due to > > > >>competitive absorption, placing vegans and vegetarians who consume > > lots > > > >>of soy, algae, and yeast at a greater risk for a deficiency (14). > > > > The human body is accustomed to differentiating between true and > > analog B-12 because analogs are prevelant in the food supply. > > Cyanotech of course claims that the presence of analogs will not > > inhibit absorption of true B-12. One study did indicate that B-12 > > deficiency can be masked by the presence of anologs in the blood being > > assayed as true B-12 during blood analysis (insensitive test). And, > > of course, if the liver and other organs of digestion/detoxification > > are not healthy, there is more risk of limiting absorption of true > > B-12 and excretion of analog. > > > > > > Portland, OR > > > > > >>13. (a) PC Dagnelie and others. Vitamin B12 from algae appears not > > to be > > > >>bioavailable. Amer J Clin Nutr, 1991, 53:695-7; ( L Lazarides. > > The > > > >>Nutritional Health Bible. (Thorsons Publishing; CA), 1997, 22- 23; > > © V > > > >>Herbert. Vitamin B12: plant sources, requirements, and assay. Amer > > J Clin > > > >>Nutr, 1988, 48:852-8. > > > >> > > > >>14. (a) IE Baille. The first international congress on vegetarian > > > >>nutrition. J Appl Nutr, 1987, 39:97-105; ( A . Soybeans: > > Chemistry > > > >> & Technology, vol 1 (Avi Publishing Co; CT), 1972, 184-188. 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Guest guest Posted March 4, 2002 Report Share Posted March 4, 2002 >Lierre wrote: >I've got friends who are completely up in arms against Sally and >Weston Price. I've had to completely stop all conversations even >vaguely related to food or nutrition because it's so out of hand. >What I hear continuously is " She's just a front for the New Zealand >Beef Council. " Where does this idea come from? I thought something like that the first time I saw the WAP site! I suspect it's a conclusion drawn from her advocacy of range-fed animal food. Though if anyone has proof that she's getting money from NZ ag interests, I'd like to hear it. Most people are ill-equipped to analyse scientific research, and certain political movements have gotten them so familiar with the notion of corporate-bought science (a bit theme in NT too), that they figure that if the science is " wrong " , it must have been paid for. And if they're vegetarians, they're up against healthy mega-carnivore cultures vs. NO vegetarian cultures. >I got kicked off >another list recently for trying to explain--very gently--that >monocropping grain was not a solution for environmental destruction. Huh? In what universe is that a bootable offence? Seems to be self-evident, even for vegans and their malnourished brains <weg>. >Food is like religion. It's really, really hard to have useful >conversations with fundamentalists, and there's a very strong strain >of that in the vegan movement (I should know, after spending 18 years >there). Fundamentalism exists in the absence of certainty. When you can't defend your position with facts, it's easier just to close down debate. >And people will pounce on small misstatements or inaccuracies >when their worldview is threatened. For myself, I don't want to be an >NT fanatic. There's nothing like the fervor of a convert--to turn >people off. And I want to stay open to new information, because so >much of what I thought was right turned out to be so wrong. And I'm STILL casting a hairy eyeball at some of this NT stuff, until my own body teaches me that it's true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2002 Report Share Posted March 4, 2002 Preacher: " And all God's people said? " Congregation: " Amen! " Well said sir! On Mon, 04 Mar 2002 13:30:33 -0000 " drmichaelmarasco " <mmarasco@...> writes: " it seems that Sally Fallon misspoke or simplified, or perhaps she actually had a wrong understanding of the subject. This is sad. When I quoted her to another email list I was told, " Still another... " , This is not sad. I must say that the notion that experts in a certain field are somehow superhuman and never have a misunderstanding or make a mistake or are unclear in their descriptions or whatever is the actual sad part. If you are communicating with vegetarians (of which I was for the better part of 8 years) I can reference hundreds of vegetarian authorities mis - speaking almost ad nauseum. Although I would like to hear Sally comment on this, it really is of no consequence. I have been in the health care and sciences field for many years now as an insider, I have seen how the propaganda and research machine works. In my opinion the only reason NT holds any water at all is Prices research. This is not some fad diet that people should follow, it is not based on modern day research lunacy. Ocassionally it is confirmed by that, however the research machine has become so unreliable who cares. I guarantee you that if we could get a grant and spend enough money and get enough researchers to go along with it I could prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that the woman you were born from is not really your mother and you were actually born to a frog. (Please don't think I mean this literally or that I am saying bad things about you or your family. I am just trying to show you how in the land of research/ " science " in 2002 the facts are rarely relevant and are frequently manipulated to prove someones point. As you probably already know. I support the notion of questioning what we know but with ethics and common sense neither of which are pandemic in research today. So just because Sally may have or may not have made an error this is not sad. And I can promise you that she will make another one. Not because she's a moron but just because she's human. And to somehow think that her credibility or knowlege is compromised based on one comment is silly. I am not saying you feel her credibility is compromised but for anyone who does that's their own problem. An example of this is Robbins of " diet for a new america " fame. is a good and honorable man and speaks extremely accurately and has huge credibility on certain topics. When it comes to sustainable nutrition for humans he doesn't have a clue, but that doesn't mean he lacks credibility in the other areas. I think we need to rely a bit more on ourselves and not be so brutal to the " experts " after all we gave them that title anyway. As for the vegetarian/vegan discussion. There need be only one question or demand the vegetarian/vegans need be posed - Find any long term surviving productive cultures who did not consume any animal products. Until the person your speaking with can do that they have NO grounds for criticizing anyone. I really appreciate your verve and interest in you own well being, keep up the good work. Sincerely, Dr. Marasco,BS,DC Cincinnati, Oh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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