Re: was: questions for farmer, now cod liver oil

[Guest guest]

Becky,

I'm not bianca, but I wanted to give you an additional perspective on CLO. I

spent some time researching CLO because one of my dogs is hypocalcemic (low

serum CA). I found that some CLO brands bleach their oils. Some fish oils,

including fish liver oils, may contain high concentrations of PCBs, dioxin

and mercury. You want to look for a brand that uses molecular distillation,

which is a lower heat process than other distillation processes, and seems

to do a good job of filtering out toxins. I finally settled on Natural

Factors Cod Liver Oil, which you can get at your local health food store or

on the Net. It's molecularly distilled. I have at least one assay of a batch

from NF which I requested and it shows the peroxide value, as well as vits A

and D potency, which can vary quite a bit from what the label states (on any

brand).

It's also a good idea to take vit E when consuming fish oils, so as to

minimize lipid peroxidation. Other antioxidants can also reduce lipid

peroxidation as well.

I believe I've heard good things about Carlson's fish oils as well, but I

haven't looked into them myself.

Liver, of course, is also a good source of vitamin D, as is some butter. But

I don't think either are as concentrated as fish liver oil. If you really

want a super high dose of vits A and D, try halibut liver oil. Packs a

whammy!

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://www.suscom-maine.net/~cfisher/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 01:45:23 -0000 " beckymauldin2001 "

<beckymauldin@...> writes:

Bianca,

Have you had bad results with the cod liver oil? To be honest, it

concerns me too as it is something that does not occur naturally in

nature. High heat is probably used to extract the oil...

ME:

In my practice, I never used an oil that was heated above the ambient

temp. it was found in nature. Therapeutically, they just didn't pass the

mustard. I was always leery of fish oils in this regard because the sea

is very cold. In theory it sounds okay but there is just too much that

can go wrong from the initial catch to the actual taking of the oil.

Enig says the Vikings made fish oil a part of their diet, but I'm not

convinced that what we have today is what they had then. All unsaturated

oils are suspect in my mind and should be carefully avoided.

Here is an excerpt from Dr. Ray Peat:

Q: Are fish oils good for you?

Some of the unsaturated fats in fish are definitely less

toxic than those in corn oil or soy oil, but that doesn't mean they are

safe. Fifty years ago, it was found that a large amount of cod liver oil

in dogs' diet increased their death rate from cancer by 20 times, from

the usual 5% to 100%. A diet rich in fish oil causes intense production

of toxic lipid peroxides, and has been observed to reduce a man's sperm

count to zero. [H. Sinclair, Prog. Lipid Res. 25, 667, 1989.]

Further he states:

Unsaturated fats cause aging, clotting, inflammation, cancer, and weight

gain.

Avoid foods which contain the polyunsaturated oils, such as

corn, soy, safflower, flax, cottonseed, canola, peanut, and sesame oil.

Mayonnaise, pastries, even candies may contain these oils;

check the labels for ingredients.

Pork is now fed corn and soy beans, so lard is usually as

toxic as those oils; use only lean pork.

Fish oils are usually highly unsaturated; " dry " types of

fish, and shellfish, used once or twice a week, are good. Avoid cod

liver oil.

Use vitamin E.

Use coconut oil, butter, and olive oil.

Unsaturated fats intensify estrogen's harmful effects.

The full article can be found here:

http://www.efn.org/~raypeat/efatox.rtf

I don't know that anyone even markets fish livers. I just buy the whole

fish and ask for everything (head, innards etc.).

Bianca

[Guest guest]

If what Peat says is true, then fish is to be avoided too, especially the

livers.

He also states that what is usually referred to as EFA's are not really

essential to humans as we can synthesize them. I think he is alone on this one.

Roman

> Q: Are fish oils good for you?

>

> Some of the unsaturated fats in fish are definitely less

> toxic than those in corn oil or soy oil, but that doesn't mean they are

> safe. Fifty years ago, it was found that a large amount of cod liver oil

> in dogs' diet increased their death rate from cancer by 20 times, from

> the usual 5% to 100%. A diet rich in fish oil causes intense production

> of toxic lipid peroxides, and has been observed to reduce a man's sperm

> count to zero. [H. Sinclair, Prog. Lipid Res. 25, 667, 1989.]

>

> Further he states:

>

> Unsaturated fats cause aging, clotting, inflammation, cancer, and weight

> gain.

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 01:45:23 -0000 " beckymauldin2001 "

> <beckymauldin@h...> writes:

>>

> Here is an excerpt from Dr. Ray Peat:

>

> Q: Are fish oils good for you?

The answer is a matter of degree. As is pointed out on the Weston

Price website, we once got our omega-3's from animal fats. If you can

get 100% of your fat from 100% grassfed animals (no grain

supplements), then you don't need to supplement omega-3's. You'll get

an appropriate ration from food. For those of us in the real world

that can't do this, an omega-3 supplement from cod liver oil is a

good idea and recommended in NT. It will make up for what you're not

getting through diet. Is an ideal solution? no. But it beats being

deficient in omega-3 fatty acids.

For a good article on the WAP site about the role of omega-3's in

inflammation (many researchers these days believe that heart disease

and diabetes are the result of chronic inflammation to the arteries):

http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/tripping.html

The problem is that many popular nutrition writers subscribe to

the " If a little of something is good, then a lot is better " approach

and recommend dangerously high levels of polyunsaturated fats that

cannot cope with. The first book on nutrition I read was Udo

Erasmus's " Fat's that heal, fats that kill " and he recommends taking

3 to 5 tablespoons of flax oil daily to speed up your metabolism and

lose weight! Its in those situations that the toxicity of

polyunsaturated, as Ray Peat points out, emerges.

The bottom line - if you're diet isn't 100% grassfed, a teaspoon of

cod liver oil is probably a good idea to make up for the omega-3's

and fat soluble vitamins that aren't in your food.

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 03:31:09 -0000 " r_rom " <r_rom@...> writes:

If what Peat says is true, then fish is to be avoided too, especially the

livers.

ME:

Interesting that he doesn't make that connection since he does recommend

fish in his summary. For me however, whole foods are often better than

there extracted components. Nuts and seeds come immediately to mind. They

were tolerated when often the oils were not, even when extracted under

the best of conditions. I think that is why traditionally we do not see

much in the way of vegetable oils except the tropical oils and olive oil.

I don't think it is just technology that kept people from using these

oils.

He also states that what is usually referred to as EFA's are not really

essential to humans as we can synthesize them. I think he is alone on

this one.

ME:

He is not alone but he is certainly in a minority. But then again so are

those who hold that cholesterol is *not* the cause of heart disease.

Bianca

[Guest guest]

Another article by Dr. Peat, Oils in Context, quite good.

http://www.efn.org/~raypeat/oils.rtf

[Guest guest]

>

>

> On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 03:31:09 -0000 " r_rom " <r_rom@y...> writes:

--snip--

> He also states that what is usually referred to as EFA's are not

really

> essential to humans as we can synthesize them. I think he is alone

on

> this one.

>

>

> ME:

>

> He is not alone but he is certainly in a minority. But then again so

are

> those who hold that cholesterol is *not* the cause of heart disease.

Bianca,

Here is a quote from a post by Dr. Enig on coconut-info list:

" Dr. Peat, however, is a biologist/physiologist and he apparently did

not have

actual training in lipids. Although Peat has correctly

identified the worth of

coconut oil, he misunderstood a lot of what he read

about the polyunsaturates,

especially the meaning of the Mead acid, which was the

result of the

functioning of the desaturases and elongases using

oleic acid as a substrate

when linoleic acid was not available. The Mead acid is

a " signature " fatty acid

that is used to identify the extent of an essential

fatty acid deficiency. I

met Mead a number of times when he was still

living. He was a superb

lipids researcher and I am sure he turns over in his

grave at the misuse of

information on the fatty acid that bears his name. "

I believe she is refuting Ray's assertion that EFA's are not essential

for humans. Read the post at:

coconut-info/message/3846

Portland, OR

[Guest guest]

>

>

> On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 03:31:09 -0000 " r_rom " <r_rom@y...> writes:

> If what Peat says is true, then fish is to be avoided too,

especially the

> livers.

>

> ME:

>

> Interesting that he doesn't make that connection since he does

recommend

> fish in his summary.

What he mentions is that it is okay to consume " dry " fish, meaning

non-oily. That would be snapper, halibut, etc. vs. salmon, tuna.

For me however, whole foods are often better

than

> there extracted components.--snip--

I agree with you here, but it doesn't seem to be what Ray is saying.

He seems to me to be recommending against consumption of

polyunsaturates from any source. In fact, he claims that inuit

( " eskimos " ) would by hypothyroid if they didn't consume some actual

thyroid gland, because they eat so much unsaturated oil in the form of

sea animal blubber. He believes all unsaturates consumed, are

oxidized in vivo and therefore generate dangerous free radicals.

Seems reductionistic to me; what about the antioxidants present in

whole foods, and those manufactured by a well nourished body (SOD,

Catalase, etc.)?

Portland, OR

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 04:56:28 -0000 " sraosha87 " <sraosha@...>

writes:

I believe she is refuting Ray's assertion that EFA's are not essential

for humans. Read the post at:

coconut-info/message/3846

Portland, OR

Thanks ,

I will check this out.

Bianca

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 05:03:38 -0000 " sraosha87 " <sraosha@...>

writes:

>

>> Interesting that he doesn't make that connection since he does

recommend

> fish in his summary.

What he mentions is that it is okay to consume " dry " fish, meaning

non-oily. That would be snapper, halibut, etc. vs. salmon, tuna.

ME: You are correct. He leaves out the oily fish consistent with his

views. I was just responding to the idea that his views would not have us

eat *any* fish, but perhaps that isn't what Roman was saying.

For me however, whole foods are often better

than

> there extracted components.--snip--

I agree with you here, but it doesn't seem to be what Ray is saying.

He seems to me to be recommending against consumption of

polyunsaturates from any source. In fact, he claims that inuit

( " eskimos " ) would by hypothyroid if they didn't consume some actual

thyroid gland, because they eat so much unsaturated oil in the form of

sea animal blubber. He believes all unsaturates consumed, are

oxidized in vivo and therefore generate dangerous free radicals.

Seems reductionistic to me; what about the antioxidants present in

whole foods, and those manufactured by a well nourished body (SOD,

Catalase, etc.)?

ME: I tried to contact him once to get an answer to the very question you

are posing. Not much luck. I *think* his answer would be that unsaturates

occur in fairly small amounts naturally (unless you eat the Eskimo diet)

and therefore are rendered harmless or that in proper ratio with

saturates they are okay. I could be wrong however and probably should let

him speak for himself.

I also find it interesting that he says in his coconut oil article that

coconut oil *reduces* the need for EFA's. Now maybe the article does not

represent his current thinking but if EFA's are not essential then why

should we worry about reducing a need for them? Perhaps he would argue

there is the ideal and then there is what happens in the real world,

their " essentiality " created by other flaws in our " real world " diet.

Anyway, more speculation on my part.

I would not cross all the " t's " or dot all the " i's " of his work but he

does raise some interesting points.

My take however is that Omega-3 supplementation is unnecessary in a diet

where Omega-6 consumption (mostly from vegetable oils) is dramatically

reduced and good (but not perfect) quality animal fats are consumed. Even

in the ideal diet omega-3 isn't very high and that the ratio of 3 to 6 is

the key factor. Others believe that supplementation is the way to bring

the ratio into balance. I disagree but I won't argue the point. I'd

rather eat the oily fish, raw :-)

Just my take,

Bianca

[Guest guest]

Peat also states that saturated fats consumed in significant amounts

provide a " protective " effect from the unsat. fats.

As I corollary to this I found it interesting that WAP found CLO to

be much more effective when combined with butter and butter oil.

In addition what should be noted is that Peat acknowledges that it is

near impossible to avoid unsat. fats and sat fat consumption provides

protective effect. There may be confusion and or disagreement on the

actual safe amount of unsat. fat to consume as EFA's however in my

opinion there is a fair amount of agreement that only small amounts

of EFA's a necessary anyway. I believe Peat's real beef with the EFA

folks are those recommending large amounts as can be seen in the dog

study bianca sited earlier.

I always recommend that if people are going to supplement EFA's that

they should be consumed with sat. fats and should not be in large

amounts, a little goes a long way.

Sincerely,

DMM

DMM

> >

> >

> > On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 03:31:09 -0000 " r_rom " <r_rom@y...> writes:

> > If what Peat says is true, then fish is to be avoided too,

> especially the

> > livers.

> >

> > ME:

> >

> > Interesting that he doesn't make that connection since he does

> recommend

> > fish in his summary.

>

> What he mentions is that it is okay to consume " dry " fish, meaning

> non-oily. That would be snapper, halibut, etc. vs. salmon, tuna.

>

> For me however, whole foods are often better

> than

> > there extracted components.--snip--

>

> I agree with you here, but it doesn't seem to be what Ray is

saying.

> He seems to me to be recommending against consumption of

> polyunsaturates from any source. In fact, he claims that inuit

> ( " eskimos " ) would by hypothyroid if they didn't consume some actual

> thyroid gland, because they eat so much unsaturated oil in the form

of

> sea animal blubber. He believes all unsaturates consumed, are

> oxidized in vivo and therefore generate dangerous free radicals.

> Seems reductionistic to me; what about the antioxidants present in

> whole foods, and those manufactured by a well nourished body (SOD,

> Catalase, etc.)?

>

>

> Portland, OR

[Guest guest]

So it could be any type of fish livers? Why is cod liver oil so hot??

Grace,

a Augustine

I wish you enough sun to keep your attitude bright.

I wish you enough rain to appreciate the sun more.

I wish you enough happiness to keep your spirit alive.

I wish you enough pain so that the smallest joys in life appear much bigger.

I wish you enough gain to satisfy your wanting.

I wish you enough loss to appreciate all that you possess.

I wish you enough ''Hello's " to get you through the final goodbye.

--anonymous

----- Original Message -----

From: beckymauldin2001

Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 7:45 PM

Subject: was: questions for farmer, now cod liver oil

Bianca,

Have you had bad results with the cod liver oil? To be honest, it

concerns me too as it is something that does not occur naturally in

nature. High heat is probably used to extract the oil...

If one wishes not to use it, what other options are there for getting

the vitamin D, etc.. in the diet? Fish livers would be one way, but

if you don't live near the coast it's a little hard to come by...Can

you get them shipped frozen?

Becky

>

> As for me personally, I had people remineralize their teeth using

butter

> and fish livers mixed together in smoothies. Despite the enthusiasm

for

> cod liver oil by Sally, and others I have always been very

leery of

> it and remain so to this day (as well as flax oil). Remineralization

> ALWAYS went faster when patients were eating animal products raised

on

> very high quality forage.

>