Re: elevated liver enzymes before starting AP

January 10, 2009

>>>I don't know if this makes a difference or not, but I had my gallbladder

taken out 6 days before the blood draw because of gallstones. I did read they

could cause liver enzymes to go up, but would they still be increased after the

surgery? <<<

Hi Beth,

There is a group called " gallstones, where there are some very

insightful people - at least there were a few years ago when I joined - who hav

a lot

of experience with liver and gallbladder issues. A few years ago, I had a

sluggish GB causing biliary colic, resolving my issues with liver flushing and

with

this help of these folk.

My layman's guess is that your liver enzymes were probably elevated prior to

your GB surgery due to an inflammed GB and backup of bile (sluggish function

due to stones). Depending on how high your liver enzymes were before surgery,

it's likely they would have taken time to come down afterwards. As you only had

the blood drawn for Dr S 6 days after surgery, it just seems too

coincidental. Also, as you had this blood draw 6 or 7 weeks ago, it might be a

good idea

to retest now, as if it was due to the GB, then it's likely the liver enzymes

have gone down now.

The GB is a great little organ. Trouble is, when it gets congested with

stones and/or sludge, bile that normally would drip down into the gut gets

backed

up into the liver again. This causes congestion in the liver and why enzymes

get elevated...the liver can't detox itself properly. It's a bit like a garbage

disposal unit...if the plumbing get plugged up, the sink gets backed up.

Why not have the hepatitis screen just to rule that out...could well be that

your enzymes have returned to normal now and Dr S just wants to be cautious

before you start AP.

Btw, if you' ve been on some of the more conventional DMARDS before your

surgery, this may have added to the problem. Check with your doc first, but milk

thistle is very effective for bringing down liver enzymes.

All the best to you, Beth! Hopefully this was just a minor post-operative

blip that has cleared or will clear soon.

Peace, Maz

January 10, 2009

High liver enzymes can be caused by medications (incl some antibiotics),

and even some rhuematoid meds are known to do this. Many things can do

this, and alcohol is one of the famous ones.

I think my doc monitored my liver enzymes when I was put on methotrexate

or other DMARDs.

Amy

Beth Fletcher wrote:

>

> I'm very confused and feel like giving up because my health just seems

> to be so bad. If it's not one thing it's another and I'm not even 29 yet.

>

> I had bloodwork done with Dr. S in Chattanooga at the end of November

> before starting AP. They just called me this week to tell me that my

> liver enzymes were high. He is wanting to do a Hepatitis screen on

> me. I am pretty sure I don't have hepatitis.

>

> What else can cause elevated liver enzymes and what can I do to help

> my liver so that I can take the antibiotics?

>

> I don't know if this makes a difference or not, but I had my

> gallbladder taken out 6 days before the blood draw because of

> gallstones. I did read they could cause liver enzymes to go up, but

> would they still be increased after the surgery?

>

> I've kinda freaked myself out googling this stuff because on Christmas

> Eve I started having a pain in my lower abdomen and it's still there.

> Is this related?

>

January 10, 2009

See if they will do a repeat screening. It could be a lab mistake or you

could have eaten something at that time that caused a high result

.. Also if you have started on AP you will have this problem and it should be

ignored. Quite a few people on AP have this happen and if your doc doesn't

really want you on antibiotics he can use this as an excuse for stopping.

Check the facts and info pages on AP.

Cooky

From: rheumatic [mailto:rheumatic ] On Behalf

Of Beth Fletcher

Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:11 AM

rheumatic

Subject: rheumatic elevated liver enzymes before starting AP

I'm very confused and feel like giving up because my health just seems to be

so bad. If it's not one thing it's another and I'm not even 29 yet.

I had bloodwork done with Dr. S in Chattanooga at the end of November before

starting AP. They just called me this week to tell me that my liver enzymes

were high. He is wanting to do a Hepatitis screen on me. I am pretty sure

I don't have hepatitis.

What else can cause elevated liver enzymes and what can I do to help my

liver so that I can take the antibiotics?

I don't know if this makes a difference or not, but I had my gallbladder

taken out 6 days before the blood draw because of gallstones. I did read

they could cause liver enzymes to go up, but would they still be increased

after the surgery?

January 10, 2009

Cooky,

recently I started to have a little higher liver enzyms. I am taking Biaxin and

Minocyclin. I take MWF 1 Mino and Sat-Sun 1 Biaxin, other than that I take my

supplements. This just started recently. Where do I look for the info on higher

liver enzymes?

Eva

From: Cooky Stonkey <cookee1@...>

Subject: RE: rheumatic elevated liver enzymes before starting AP

rheumatic

Date: Saturday, January 10, 2009, 9:56 AM

See if they will do a repeat screening. It could be a lab mistake or you

could have eaten something at that time that caused a high result

.. Also if you have started on AP you will have this problem and it should be

ignored. Quite a few people on AP have this happen and if your doc doesn't

really want you on antibiotics he can use this as an excuse for stopping.

Check the facts and info pages on AP.

Cooky

From: rheumatic@grou ps.com [mailto:rheumatic@grou ps.com] On Behalf

Of Beth Fletcher

Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:11 AM

rheumatic@grou ps.com

Subject: rheumatic elevated liver enzymes before starting AP

I'm very confused and feel like giving up because my health just seems to be

so bad. If it's not one thing it's another and I'm not even 29 yet.

I had bloodwork done with Dr. S in Chattanooga at the end of November before

starting AP. They just called me this week to tell me that my liver enzymes

were high. He is wanting to do a Hepatitis screen on me. I am pretty sure

I don't have hepatitis.

What else can cause elevated liver enzymes and what can I do to help my

liver so that I can take the antibiotics?

I don't know if this makes a difference or not, but I had my gallbladder

taken out 6 days before the blood draw because of gallstones. I did read

they could cause liver enzymes to go up, but would they still be increased

after the surgery?

January 10, 2009

I'll try to find it for you.

From: rheumatic [mailto:rheumatic ] On Behalf

Of Eva Holloway

Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 11:05 AM

rheumatic

Subject: RE: rheumatic elevated liver enzymes before starting AP

Cooky,

recently I started to have a little higher liver enzyms. I am taking Biaxin

and Minocyclin. I take MWF 1 Mino and Sat-Sun 1 Biaxin, other than that I

take my supplements. This just started recently. Where do I look for the

info on higher liver enzymes?

Eva

January 10, 2009

Beth,

I don't know what your original diagnosis is, but elevated liver enzymes can

also be coming from the muscle. Little known fact that " liver " enzymes are

also muscle enzymes. I have polymyositis and went through a liver biopsy and

every liver related blood test known to man before it was discovered it was

all coming from severe muscle disease. A CK will check for that, and it's a

simple ,routine, inexpensive blood test.

It is more likely to be the meds you are on- but I just wanted you to keep

this in mind in case a cause for the elevation cannot be found.

Emma

On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 1:11 AM, Beth Fletcher <kbf23@...> wrote:

> I'm very confused and feel like giving up because my health just seems

> to be so bad. If it's not one thing it's another and I'm not even 29 yet.

>

> I had bloodwork done with Dr. S in Chattanooga at the end of November

> before starting AP. They just called me this week to tell me that my liver

> enzymes were high. He is wanting to do a Hepatitis screen on me. I am

> pretty sure I don't have hepatitis.

>

> What else can cause elevated liver enzymes and what can I do to help my

> liver so that I can take the antibiotics?

>

> I don't know if this makes a difference or not, but I had my gallbladder

> taken out 6 days before the blood draw because of gallstones. I did read

> they could cause liver enzymes to go up, but would they still be increased

> after the surgery?

>

> I've kinda freaked myself out googling this stuff because on Christmas Eve

> I started having a pain in my lower abdomen and it's still there. Is this

> related?

>

January 10, 2009

Emma,

are you saying that because I have severe dermatomyositis that this could also

cause the liver enzymes to be higher?

Eva

> I'm very confused and feel like giving up because my health just seems

> to be so bad. If it's not one thing it's another and I'm not even 29 yet.

>

> I had bloodwork done with Dr. S in Chattanooga at the end of November

> before starting AP. They just called me this week to tell me that my liver

> enzymes were high. He is wanting to do a Hepatitis screen on me. I am

> pretty sure I don't have hepatitis.

>

> What else can cause elevated liver enzymes and what can I do to help my

> liver so that I can take the antibiotics?

>

> I don't know if this makes a difference or not, but I had my gallbladder

> taken out 6 days before the blood draw because of gallstones. I did read

> they could cause liver enzymes to go up, but would they still be increased

> after the surgery?

>

> I've kinda freaked myself out googling this stuff because on Christmas Eve

> I started having a pain in my lower abdomen and it's still there. Is this

> related?

>

January 10, 2009

Just a few more possibilities are fatty liver, medicines, and even an

autoimmune hepatitis that can be caused by having anti-smooth muscle antibodies.

January 10, 2009

Eva,

Have you noticed a pattern or a correlation between your CK and your AST and

ALT levels? For instance, when my CK was 14,000, my AST and ALT were

300s-400s. Now that my CK is down to 4,000, my AST and ALT are around 100.

If my AST and ALT were still that high even though my CK is coming down, I

would be worried that there was something going on with my liver. But

because the levels have always risen and fallen together in the same

relative proportions, I've been confident that it is all related to the

muscle disease activity.

Doctors are notoriously uninformed about AST and ALT also being found in

muscle cells; there is a study on Pubmed in which doctors were called at

random and quizzed about it (phone survey) and most of them failed the test.

On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Eva Holloway

<holloway-eva@...>wrote:

> Emma,

>

> are you saying that because I have severe dermatomyositis that this could

> also cause the liver enzymes to be higher?

>

> Eva

>

> > I'm very confused and feel like giving up because my health just seems

> > to be so bad. If it's not one thing it's another and I'm not even 29 yet.

> >

> > I had bloodwork done with Dr. S in Chattanooga at the end of November

> > before starting AP. They just called me this week to tell me that my

> liver

> > enzymes were high. He is wanting to do a Hepatitis screen on me. I am

> > pretty sure I don't have hepatitis.

> >

> > What else can cause elevated liver enzymes and what can I do to help my

> > liver so that I can take the antibiotics?

> >

> > I don't know if this makes a difference or not, but I had my gallbladder

> > taken out 6 days before the blood draw because of gallstones. I did read

> > they could cause liver enzymes to go up, but would they still be

> increased

> > after the surgery?

> >

> > I've kinda freaked myself out googling this stuff because on Christmas

> Eve

> > I started having a pain in my lower abdomen and it's still there. Is this

> > related?

> >

January 10, 2009

Hi Eva,

Our computer had to be replaced in September and I thot all my records were

saved. I have been looking for them and apparently they are lost(I am super

upset). I also asked Ethel if she remembered this so I am waiting for her

response.

Cooky

recently I started to have a little higher liver enzyms. I am taking Biaxin

and Minocyclin. I take MWF 1 Mino and Sat-Sun 1 Biaxin, other than that I

take my supplements. This just started recently. Where do I look for the

info on higher liver enzymes?

Eva

See if they will do a repeat screening. It could be a lab mistake or you

could have eaten something at that time that caused a high result

.. Also if you have started on AP you will have this problem and it should be

ignored. Quite a few people on AP have this happen and if your doc doesn't

really want you on antibiotics he can use this as an excuse for stopping.

Check the facts and info pages on AP.

January 11, 2009

milk thistle is said to help liver enzymes go down.

monique

January 11, 2009

I am also a member of the psoriatic arthritis group and they are also talking

about using milk thistle for elevated enzymes. must be running in all the

arthritis groups.I may try it to see if my elevated enzyme levels go down. they

are not very high, but just over the normal level.

Eva

From: Sauve <moniquesauve@...>

Subject: rheumatic Re: elevated liver enzymes before starting AP

rheumatic

Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 4:34 PM

milk thistle is said to help liver enzymes go down.

monique

January 12, 2009

Hi Beth:

With regard to elevated liver enzymes. The cause is more than likely due to

meds you may be taking. Also, alcohol will do the same thing; and as you know

too much alcohol will cause damage.

My rheumy has been checking one liver enzyme, namely ALT/SGPT, to watch for DRUG

TOXICITY since May07 due to Rheumatoid Arthritis.. In Jul-Aug-SEP-'07, my SGPT

tested at 41, 40, and 42, respectively. Normal ranges for this enzyme per the

method used by this particular lab are 5-40. At that time I was taking

prednisone 20 mgs/day, methotrexate 15 mgs/wk, and ibuproen PRN. When I saw the

SGPT jump to 42 in Sep'07, I DOUBLED the amount of milk thistle I had been

taking all along -- from 175 mgs standardized extract 3 times per day to 350 mgs

standardized extract 3 times per day. In Oct'07, my SGPT dropped to 24; and

since then has been between 20 and 28. I told my rheumy that my having

increased my milk thistle intake lowered my SGPT -- he promptly responded

" probably not " . Obviously, he is not aware of the protective and restorative

properties of milk thistle. I recommend using a standardized extract only --

it's a bit more costly but well worth

it. I get it at the Vitamin Shoppe and use their house brands. I visit either

a 'brick & mortar' retail store or online at www.vitaminshoppe.com . I use many

of their supplements because they are typically free of preservatives, dyes,

sugar, fillers, and all of the other of the 'junk' found in drug store

supplements.

Since Apr'08, I've been off the prednisone but in Oct'08 I increased

methotrexate to 20 mgs/week yet my Oct'08 SGPT was still at 28 -- well within

the normal range. I'm sure this is because of the milk thistle. Hope this

helps.

I'm now in the processing of finding an Infectious Disease Specialist who will

help me pursue Dr. Brown's A/P. My 'soon to be' ex-rheumy says A/P doesn't

work and will not help me follow this course. He is really pushing Remicade

which I will not take unless the A/P does not work. My rheumy obviously knows

A/P will not bring is sufficient dollars into the practice like Remicade

infusions will.

All the best to you.

Diane Springob

________________________________

From: Beth Fletcher <kbf23@...>

rheumatic

Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:11:15 AM

Subject: rheumatic elevated liver enzymes before starting AP

I'm very confused and feel like giving up because my health just seems to be so

bad. If it's not one thing it's another and I'm not even 29 yet.

I had bloodwork done with Dr. S in Chattanooga at the end of November before

starting AP. They just called me this week to tell me that my liver enzymes were

high. He is wanting to do a Hepatitis screen on me. I am pretty sure I don't

have hepatitis.

What else can cause elevated liver enzymes and what can I do to help my liver so

that I can take the antibiotics?

I don't know if this makes a difference or not, but I had my gallbladder taken

out 6 days before the blood draw because of gallstones. I did read they could

cause liver enzymes to go up, but would they still be increased after the

surgery?

I've kinda freaked myself out googling this stuff because on Christmas Eve I

started having a pain in my lower abdomen and it's still there. Is this

related?

January 12, 2009

Thank you all for the replies. I am having the test repeated on Thursday, along

with the Hepatitis A, B, and C screen done. What has me so confused with all of

this is that I have not been on any meds for the last almost year. I just had a

baby three months ago and my arthritis had been in remission since the first

trimester. Previous to that I was taking 5 mg of prednisone only. I'm just

wondering what other things could be out of whack to have such elevated liver

enzymes. And I don't drink alcohol, so that rules that out, too. Thank you

again for taking the time to reply to me. Beth

January 12, 2009

This issue irks me... for many doctors, the doctoring is a cash-flow

business. I run in this problem all the time.

Amy

Diane Springob wrote:

>

> SNIP

> I'm now in the processing of finding an Infectious Disease Specialist

> who will help me pursue Dr. Brown's A/P. My 'soon to be' ex-rheumy

> says A/P doesn't work and will not help me follow this course. He is

> really pushing Remicade which I will not take unless the A/P does not

> work. My rheumy obviously knows A/P will not bring is sufficient

> dollars into the practice like Remicade infusions will.

>

> All the best to you.

>

> Diane Springob

>

January 13, 2009

Diane:

I don't where you are located but i am just starting AP therapy with a doctor in

Richmond VA. He does not do IV but has agreed to start me on oral antibiotics.

I am hoping it works. Is anyone out there in remission due to AP therapy - oral

mynocycline (sp)?, and how long did it take?

I will send you the list of doctors I have.

Best,

January 13, 2009

Hello,

I am in remission or control as I like to call it thanks to the AP therapy.

As for the time it took - each of us is different and the time to remission

depends a lot on the state of your immune system, your diet, how long you have

had your disease and how positive you are that you will succeed.

For me it took approximately 2 years. I have dermatomyositis and mixed

connective tissue disease with crest syndrome(SD). Having an informed doctor

helps as well but is not absolutely necessary. I did it with Ethel's help and

others on this board.

I still take 100mg brand minocin twice a week.

I did reach control using generic minocycline but it was made by Lederle and was

equal to the brand that we now use.

All generics are not created equal to the brand. I live in Canada so now use

Steifel brand.

HTH,

Carol_DM

January 13, 2009

I achieved good results with brand Minocin within about 6 mos., so after about

15 mos.decided generic would be ok. For me it wasn't and now I'm suffering a

setback. I'm back on brand and hope to get back where I was before long.

The best to you,

lmason

RE: rheumatic elevated liver enzymes before starting AP

Diane:

I don't where you are located but i am just starting AP therapy with a doctor

in Richmond VA. He does not do IV but has agreed to start me on oral

antibiotics. I am hoping it works. Is anyone out there in remission due to AP

therapy - oral mynocycline (sp)?, and how long did it take?

I will send you the list of doctors I have.

Best,

January 14, 2009

Hi Kathy:

I live in Cleveland, OH and just got a referral on Mon Jan 12th from my

Internist to see an Infectious Disease Specialist. My Internist was very open

to A/P for RA and encouraged me to pursue it. In fact, she took Minocin as a

teenager for her acne. Anyway, I will be contacting this ID Specialist today to

schedule an appointment. ASAP. This ID Specialist from what I understand from

friends (one is a nurse, the other a pharmacist) is very, very good, and so I am

very hopeful of a successful outcome. Be aware that A/P works only on 75-80% of

those who try it. I believe the difference between success and failure is

comprehensive testing for mycoplasma, Lyme disease, etc. BEFORE starting A/P to

identify a specific infection(s) so, if applicable, any co-infections can be

dealt with utilizing appropriate meds. Further, be aware you need to avoid

taking calcium, magnesium, and iron at least 2-3 hours either side of taking

Minocin as these will cause the

Minocin to be less effective. Also, some people out there have reported that

using only the brand name Minocin works best (pelletized capsules only) and not

the generic version, minocycline.

I recommend you have your doctor contact either one of the following physicians

-- both of whom worked with Dr. McPherson Brown: (1) S. Sinnott,

Sinnott and Toben Medical Arts PH: 712-364-3302 (700 East Second St., Ida Grove,

IA) and (2) Dr. Millicent Coker-Vann: MD's wishing to obtain Dr. Brown's

protocol (oral or IV) can send a request with contact info to

requests@.... Her website is www.tarci.net (The Arthritis Research

Center, Inc.). Dr. Sinnott's website, www.sinnottandtobenmedarts.com -- the

last time I checked -- was down --- apparently their domain name renewal was

pending.

Good luck in your endeavor.

Diane Springob

________________________________

From: kathy hunt <rollercoaster120@...>

rheumatic

Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:17:42 AM

Subject: RE: rheumatic elevated liver enzymes before starting AP

Diane:

I don't where you are located but i am just starting AP therapy with a doctor in

Richmond VA. He does not do IV but has agreed to start me on oral antibiotics.

I am hoping it works. Is anyone out there in remission due to AP therapy - oral

mynocycline (sp)?, and how long did it take?

I will send you the list of doctors I have.

Best,

January 14, 2009

Hello Diane Springob, This was well written. Good luck with you ID doc. I am

extremely happy with mine. ID docs are more investigative. Finding micoplasmas

and all other infectious agents are their primary goal. This way they get to

know what medications will attack that specific microbes, viruses or fungi we

have. After 4 years of hit and miss guess work and fighting with Rhuematologist

for some minocin and having them get angry because I will not use their steroids

and toxic meds, it is such a pleasure to know that this doc is eager to find out

what is ailing me, so he can properly treat me. What a relief! He does not want

to suppress my immune system. He wants to clean out the offending organisms.

Just because I found a good one, that doesn't mean that all ID docs may be

good. As we all know, there are good and bad in every field. So, if you are

not satisfied with one doc, find another. Your loyalty should be to your body

and not to your doc. Thanks for all the info. I will copy and keep it in my

file for further use. Much obliged, Dolores & Mike

From: Diane Springob <springobd@...>

Subject: Re: rheumatic elevated liver enzymes before starting AP

rheumatic

Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 8:03 AM

Hi Kathy:

I live in Cleveland, OH and just got a referral on Mon Jan 12th from my

Internist to see an Infectious Disease Specialist. My Internist was very open to

A/P for RA and encouraged me to pursue it. In fact, she took Minocin as a