Re: More musings on phytates :)

[Guest guest]

> do normal leavening agents like Baker's yeast reduce

> phytates? I think I read that they do in one place.

It's not the leavening that reduces the phytates. It's the time spent at

moisture and temperature levels that would cause the grain sprout under

normal conditions. That allows the phytase enzymes to activate and have

time to act on the phytates. If you use bakers yeast but let the dough sit

for as long as you would let a sourdough sit, your phytate reduction should

be relatively similar.

> Any what about stomach acid and digestive

> enzymes - any positive effects on reducing phytates?

I don't know the answer for sure, but I would highly doubt it. The total

instestinal transit time of a phytate laden food is generally shorter than

the ideal soaking time. In addition, I find it unlikely that the phytase

enzymes responsible for breaking down the phytates during germination could

operate in the harsh environment of the human digestive system.

Further musings:

The SAD diet should actually be quite low in phytates since it is composed

mostly of grain products that have been made without the bran or germ. It's

my understanding that the vast bulk of the phytates reside in the bran.

Also, soaking does not usually completely remove phytates. It only

*reduces* them. Therefore, I would suspect that a diet based on NT would

actually still be higher in phytates than would a SAD diet.

One more quick thing... As I understand it, there are two issues that I

think might be getting confused when it comes to phytates. I think there is

such a thing as phytic acid and there is such a thing as phytates. I don't

think they are the same. A phytate is phytic acid that has already bound to

a mineral. Phytic acid has not yet bound to a mineral. Furthermore, it is

my understanding that phytates are the predominant form in grains and beans.

If I am correct, consuming a phytate should do nothing but deprive your

digestion of the mineral that is in that phyate molecule. Consuming free

phytic acid, however, could cause other dietary minerals (particularly

ionic/inorganic forms) to be bound and made inaccessible to us.

[Guest guest]

> > do normal leavening agents like Baker's yeast reduce

>> phytates? I think I read that they do in one place.

>

>It's not the leavening that reduces the phytates. It's the time spent at

>moisture and temperature levels that would cause the grain sprout under

>normal conditions. That allows the phytase enzymes to activate and have

>time to act on the phytates. If you use bakers yeast but let the dough sit

>for as long as you would let a sourdough sit, your phytate reduction should

>be relatively similar.

Hmm. I thought that the sourdough culture contained lactobacilli, and

that they played a large part in phytate reduction. I supposed that

yeast plus whey would do the same thing. But how many times would you

need to punch down a yeast dough that rose for 3 days?

--

Quick

www.en.com/users/jaquick

" One of these days someone smarter and younger and more articulate

than I is going to get through to the American people just how really

messed up it has become. And when that happens, the American people are

going to rise up like that football crowd in Cleveland and run both

teams off the field. " --Sen. Zell

[Guest guest]

> Hmm. I thought that the sourdough culture contained

> lactobacilli, and that they played a large part in

> phytate reduction. I supposed that yeast plus whey

> would do the same thing. But how many times would you

> need to punch down a yeast dough that rose for 3 days?

I think they play a role (in phytate reduction) but only a small one. The

soaking instructions for grains (other than sourdough breads) sometimes call

for a small amount of acid to create a pH more conducive to phytase

activity. Lactobacilli would play a similar role by lowering the pH through

lactic acid production. I would think that the effect would have to be

limited though since the lactic acid would form slowly, and significant

acidity would only be present toward the end of the period of phytate

reduction.

[Guest guest]

Hi Carmen,

I'm intrigued by your approach. I haven't had a lot of success with

sourdough and loafs that I liked okay my kids wouldn't eat. Mostly I give

them Ezekiel bread now which is sprouted but also I just noted has soybeans

in it.

Can you adapt other bread recipes with this technique or is there something

special about the recipes in the book you mentioned?

Also, besides the rising time issue is there something else not healthy

about bakers yeast?

Thanks,

-----Original Message-----

From: Carmen [mailto:ctn@...]

Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 3:08 PM

Subject: RE: More musings on phytates

<<<< But how many times would you

need to punch down a yeast dough that rose for 3 days?

--

Quick >>>>

,

Your question may have been answered in whole or in part already, but

I'd

like to expound a little.......certainly not an educated answer, but my

personal take on this issue. I make bread that is not NT acceptable, but

is

a compromise and works for me. I find true sourdough challenging,

inconvenient,and I don't especially like it. Our local library has a book

called " Bread Time Stories " . All the recipes use a very small amount of

traditional baker's yeast, but long rising times. E.g. a normal bread

recipe

that calls for 2 teaspoons of yeast would be made with only a qtr teaspoon

of baker's yeast. I use buttermilk, yogurt, whey, etc. for the liquid. The

rising time is extended considerably enabling the grains to be exposed to

the liquid for at least 7 hours (which is the minimum acceptable time

needed

for the phytate reduction). You only need to punch the dough down a couple

of times because of the longer rising time. I start my bread at say 9:00

A.M. and have it ready for supper.

Carmen

[Guest guest]

<<<< But how many times would you

need to punch down a yeast dough that rose for 3 days?

--

Quick >>>>

,

Your question may have been answered in whole or in part already, but I'd

like to expound a little.......certainly not an educated answer, but my

personal take on this issue. I make bread that is not NT acceptable, but is

a compromise and works for me. I find true sourdough challenging,

inconvenient,and I don't especially like it. Our local library has a book

called " Bread Time Stories " . All the recipes use a very small amount of

traditional baker's yeast, but long rising times. E.g. a normal bread recipe

that calls for 2 teaspoons of yeast would be made with only a qtr teaspoon

of baker's yeast. I use buttermilk, yogurt, whey, etc. for the liquid. The

rising time is extended considerably enabling the grains to be exposed to

the liquid for at least 7 hours (which is the minimum acceptable time needed

for the phytate reduction). You only need to punch the dough down a couple

of times because of the longer rising time. I start my bread at say 9:00

A.M. and have it ready for supper.

Carmen

[Guest guest]

>Also, besides the rising time issue is there something else not >healthy about

bakers yeast?

The NT book has two differen quotes about Bakers Yeast and how the natural

leaven is good for youa nd Bakers yeast is not:

" It was simpler to replace natural leaven with brewers yeast. There are numerous

practical advantages: the fermentation is more regular, more rapid and the bread

rises better. But the fermentation becomes mainly alcoholic fermentation and the

acidification is greatly lessened. the bread is less digestable, less tastey and

spoils more easily. "

" Baking with natural leaven is in harmony with nature and maintains the

integrity and nutrition of the cereal grains used...The process helps to

increase adn reinforce our body's absorption of the cereal's nutrients. Unlike

yeasted bread that diminishes, even destroys much of the grains nutritional

value, naturally leavened bread does not stale and, as it ages, maintains its

original moisture much longer. A lot of that information was known

pragmatically for centuries and thus, when yeast was first introduced in France,

at the court of Louis XIV in March 1668, because at that time the scientists

already knew that the use of yeast would imperil the people's health, it was

strongly rejected. "

Grace,

a Augustine

I wish you enough sun to keep your attitude bright.

I wish you enough rain to appreciate the sun more.

I wish you enough happiness to keep your spirit alive.

I wish you enough pain so that the smallest joys in life appear much bigger.

I wish you enough gain to satisfy your wanting.

I wish you enough loss to appreciate all that you possess.

I wish you enough ''Hello's " to get you through the final goodbye.

--anonymous

[Guest guest]

> >Also, besides the rising time issue is there something else

>not >healthy about bakers yeast?

>

>The NT book has two differen quotes about Bakers Yeast and how the

>natural leaven is good for youa nd Bakers yeast is not:

>

> " It was simpler to replace natural leaven with brewers yeast. There

>are numerous practical advantages: the fermentation is more regular,

>more rapid and the bread rises better. But the fermentation becomes

>mainly alcoholic fermentation and the acidification is greatly

>lessened. the bread is less digestable, less tastey and spoils more

>easily. "

It's important to remember that sourdough is a mixed culture of

lactobacilli and whatever varieties of yeast spores are floating

around in the air. The lactic acid MAY protect against any pathogenic

yeasts (Candida etc.). Bread yeast is the same species as

bottom-fermenting ale yeast (Saccharomyces cereviseae).

This is one of those things in NT which strikes me as ambiguous and

inadaquately backed up. Certainly the acid fermentation destroys

phytates. But we need tests between sourdough (from various

cultures), bread yeast used with whey, and bread yeast alone. We need

nutrient assays, bacteria cultures of finished bread, and clinical

experience (what produces better health)?

--

Quick

www.en.com/users/jaquick

" One of these days someone smarter and younger and more articulate

than I is going to get through to the American people just how really

messed up it has become. And when that happens, the American people are

going to rise up like that football crowd in Cleveland and run both

teams off the field. " --Sen. Zell

[Guest guest]

I adapt this method to any bread recipe. I just reduce the amount of yeast

to 1/4 tsp. for a single loaf and 1/2 tsp. for a double loaf. It even works

in the bread machine. I just let my machine run the dough cycle a couple of

times before running the full cycle.

Like I say this a compromise on the NT way of eating. I am at least

reducing the amount of yeast and exposing the grains to buttermilk or

whatever for the prescribed amount of time. Apparently there are other

health issues regarding yeast, but frankly I'm confused. A while back on

this list I think folks were talking about taking baker's yeast mixed with

water as some sort of tonic for the stomach???

Carmen

<<<<<< Can you adapt other bread recipes with this technique or is there

something

special about the recipes in the book you mentioned?

Also, besides the rising time issue is there something else not healthy

about bakers yeast?

Thanks, >>>>>