Re: Pricey pills work better even when they're fake

March 5, 2008

This is full of crap. Just like all those other studies there has to be a

catch somewhere. Maybe they gave the pills for something that all the

person had to do was relax to have relief. Maybe they were friends of the

people doing the test. Maybe the people just said they had pain to do the

test. If you give a placebo to a person with " real " pain I guarantee they

will know the difference!

Cooky

_____

From: rheumatic [mailto:rheumatic ] On Behalf

Of wiccantwinpaths

Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 11:55 AM

rheumatic

Subject: rheumatic Pricey pills work better even when they're fake

Pricey pills work better even when they're fake

$2.50 placebo eased more pains than identical 10-cent pill, study

found

By Roni Caryn Rabin

Special to MSNBC

updated 4:00 p.m. ET, Tues., March. 4, 2008

When it comes to painkillers, many people believe " you get what you

pay for, " according to a new study that found patients are actually

more likely to get relief if they think they're taking high-priced

pain pills.

Volunteers who were given a placebo said to cost $2.50 per pill and

described as a " potent opioid-agonist that provides fast-acting, long

lasting relief " were much more likely to report pain relief than

those given a placebo described as a discounted ten-cent version of

the same pill. The study is published as a research letter in this

week's Journal of the American Medical Association.

" _,_._,___

March 7, 2008

From my personal experience when I was working at a major hospital, we had

patients who were admitted much too often into the hospital crying in pain. We

got to know these patients after a while and every 3.5hr.-4 hrs. they would be

on the bell ringing for their shots. Believe it or not, they were just as quiet

for 4 more hours with the placebo as they were with the real thing. Drs. would

order a placebo for one dose and a real medication for the next dose. The

patients did not know the difference. These people had been on pain meds so

long, they had gotten addicted. Yes, addicted people can be given placebo's

that work just fine and they don't know the difference. Don't ask me why. I

just know from my nursing experience. The mind is a marvelous place. If you

think it, it can happen. Love, Dolores

C Stonkey <cookee1@...> wrote: This is full of crap. Just like

all those other studies there has to be a

catch somewhere. Maybe they gave the pills for something that all the

person had to do was relax to have relief. Maybe they were friends of the

people doing the test. Maybe the people just said they had pain to do the

test. If you give a placebo to a person with " real " pain I guarantee they

will know the difference!

Cooky

_____

From: rheumatic [mailto:rheumatic ] On Behalf

Of wiccantwinpaths

Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 11:55 AM

rheumatic

Subject: rheumatic Pricey pills work better even when they're fake

Pricey pills work better even when they're fake

$2.50 placebo eased more pains than identical 10-cent pill, study

found

By Roni Caryn Rabin

Special to MSNBC

updated 4:00 p.m. ET, Tues., March. 4, 2008

When it comes to painkillers, many people believe " you get what you

pay for, " according to a new study that found patients are actually

more likely to get relief if they think they're taking high-priced

pain pills.

Volunteers who were given a placebo said to cost $2.50 per pill and

described as a " potent opioid-agonist that provides fast-acting, long

lasting relief " were much more likely to report pain relief than

those given a placebo described as a discounted ten-cent version of

the same pill. The study is published as a research letter in this

week's Journal of the American Medical Association.

" _,_._,___

March 7, 2008

I also would like to add to my previous reply on this subject that when I worked

the night shift on the maternity floor and the night was fairly quiet, we would

be given gel caps and sugar. We all sat at the desk putting a small amt. of

sugar in these gel caps. They were put aside as placebos to be given when a new

mom was crying more than normal. For some reason, a sugar pill would put her to

sleep very comfortably when she thought she was getting her codeine. Sorry

gals, believe what you like. I know for a fact placebos work.

I gave them and then charted the results. My career in nursing lasted 40

years. I am 71 and have been retired for more than 10 yrs.now from hospital

work. I ocassionally still worked triage until scleroderma put an end to that a

few years ago. Tried, tested and true. Love to you all, Dolores

C Stonkey <cookee1@...> wrote:

This is full of crap. Just like all those other studies there has to

be a

catch somewhere. Maybe they gave the pills for something that all the

person had to do was relax to have relief. Maybe they were friends of the

people doing the test. Maybe the people just said they had pain to do the

test. If you give a placebo to a person with " real " pain I guarantee they

will know the difference!

Cooky

_____

From: rheumatic [mailto:rheumatic ] On Behalf

Of wiccantwinpaths

Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 11:55 AM

rheumatic

Subject: rheumatic Pricey pills work better even when they're fake

Pricey pills work better even when they're fake

$2.50 placebo eased more pains than identical 10-cent pill, study

found

By Roni Caryn Rabin

Special to MSNBC

updated 4:00 p.m. ET, Tues., March. 4, 2008

When it comes to painkillers, many people believe " you get what you

pay for, " according to a new study that found patients are actually

more likely to get relief if they think they're taking high-priced

pain pills.

Volunteers who were given a placebo said to cost $2.50 per pill and

described as a " potent opioid-agonist that provides fast-acting, long

lasting relief " were much more likely to report pain relief than

those given a placebo described as a discounted ten-cent version of

the same pill. The study is published as a research letter in this

week's Journal of the American Medical Association.

" _,_._,___

March 7, 2008

Hi Dolores. I don't understand that. I don't doubt that what you're

saying is true .... ... but I just don't understand it.

I'm experiencing a remission of sorts right now. Wonderful. Could that

placebo effect happen with me? I have a hard time believing it could

happen to me. What about you? When you were in bed dying, do you think

a placebo effect would have worked for you?

Amy

mike rosner wrote:

>

> From my personal experience when I was working at a major hospital, we

> had patients who were admitted much too often into the hospital crying

> in pain. We got to know these patients after a while and every

> 3.5hr.-4 hrs. they would be on the bell ringing for their shots.

> Believe it or not, they were just as quiet for 4 more hours with the

> placebo as they were with the real thing. Drs. would order a placebo

> for one dose and a real medication for the next dose. The patients did

> not know the difference. These people had been on pain meds so long,

> they had gotten addicted. Yes, addicted people can be given placebo's

> that work just fine and they don't know the difference. Don't ask me

> why. I just know from my nursing experience. The mind is a marvelous

> place. If you think it, it can happen. Love, Dolores

>

March 7, 2008

I feel that was unfair to the patients. Were sugar pills charged to the

patients' accounts. To extrapolate, this means we should all be able to make

up our minds and get over our illnesses. Do you think this is possible?

Could I " think " my body out of deforming?

**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &

Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

March 7, 2008

WOW Dolores where did you work? I have been a nurse for 40 years and have

never given a sugar pill. I am not trying to be snotty here so please don't

take this wrong.

I found that addicted people do know the difference because they always say

that med you gave me did not work. These people have real pain. If they do

not have their " fix " it is like withdrawl and they have pain.

I do agree sometimes a placebo could work especially when all the person has

to do is relax. I used to get tension headaches and I knew the pain would go

away as soon as I relaxed. That is why massage, whirlpool and other such

modalities are so important.

Doctors now finally realize that people with cancer need the increased

amount and strength of pain meds. LONG ago we nurses would get tired of them

asking for more and more shots. Their butts looked like raw meat. Now they

have pain patches and increase the dosages. If my mom had died back when I

was a new nurse she would have died in major pain. Thank god at least that

part of medicine has evolved.

I hope you did not think I am want to start a war <grinning> I just feel a

little differently.

Cooky

From my personal experience when I was working at a major hospital, we had

patients who were admitted much too often into the hospital crying in pain.

We got to know these patients after a while and every 3.5hr.-4 hrs. they

would be on the bell ringing for their shots. Believe it or not, they were

just as quiet for 4 more hours with the placebo as they were with the real

thing. Drs. would order a placebo for one dose and a real medication for the

next dose. The patients did not know the difference. These people had been

on pain meds so long, they had gotten addicted. Yes, addicted people can be

given placebo's that work just fine and they don't know the difference.

Don't ask me why. I just know from my nursing experience. The mind is a

marvelous place. If you think it, it can happen. Love, Dolores

C Stonkey <cookee1comcast (DOT) <mailto:cookee1%40comcast.net> net> wrote: This

is full of crap. Just like all those other studies there has to be a

catch somewhere. Maybe they gave the pills for something that all the

person had to do was relax to have relief. Maybe they were friends of the

people doing the test. Maybe the people just said they had pain to do the

test. If you give a placebo to a person with " real " pain I guarantee they

will know the difference!

March 7, 2008

Gi Cookie;

Knowing Dolores I think that she meant what you are saying.Some

people really need meds and others are chronic complainers that need

attention more than anything.Then there are the boarded line cases that

I would never be able to figure out because I have never worked with

sick people.I have to tip my hat to anyone who has ever worked in the

medical filed as that strikes me as the most difficult job possible. Lynne

> WOW Dolores where did you work? I have been a nurse for 40 years and have

> never given a sugar pill. I am not trying to be snotty here so please

> don't

> take this wrong.

>

> I found that addicted people do know the difference because they

> always say

> that med you gave me did not work. These people have real pain. If they do

> not have their " fix " it is like withdrawl and they have pain.

>

> I do agree sometimes a placebo could work especially when all the

> person has

> to do is relax. I used to get tension headaches and I knew the pain

> would go

> away as soon as I relaxed. That is why massage, whirlpool and other such

> modalities are so important.

>

> Doctors now finally realize that people with cancer need the increased

> amount and strength of pain meds. LONG ago we nurses would get tired

> of them

> asking for more and more shots. Their butts looked like raw meat. Now they

> have pain patches and increase the dosages. If my mom had died back when I

> was a new nurse she would have died in major pain. Thank god at least that

> part of medicine has evolved.

>

> I hope you did not think I am want to start a war <grinning> I just feel a

> little differently.

>

> Cooky

>

> >From my personal experience when I was working at a major hospital,

> we had

> patients who were admitted much too often into the hospital crying in

> pain.

> We got to know these patients after a while and every 3.5hr.-4 hrs. they

> would be on the bell ringing for their shots. Believe it or not, they were

> just as quiet for 4 more hours with the placebo as they were with the real

> thing. Drs. would order a placebo for one dose and a real medication

> for the

> next dose. The patients did not know the difference. These people had been

> on pain meds so long, they had gotten addicted. Yes, addicted people

> can be

> given placebo's that work just fine and they don't know the difference.

> Don't ask me why. I just know from my nursing experience. The mind is a

> marvelous place. If you think it, it can happen. Love, Dolores

>

> C Stonkey <cookee1comcast (DOT) <mailto:cookee1% 40comcast. net> net>

> wrote: This

> is full of crap. Just like all those other studies there has to be a

> catch somewhere. Maybe they gave the pills for something that all the

> person had to do was relax to have relief. Maybe they were friends of the

> people doing the test. Maybe the people just said they had pain to do the

> test. If you give a placebo to a person with " real " pain I guarantee they

> will know the difference!

>

March 7, 2008

That's nice of you to say that. I think being a teacher is the hardest job.

You have to be " up " for the kids all day. Patience of a saint. Dealing with

parents. The responsibility of the future is on your shoulders. I think I

would want to take all the kids home with me that do not have a good home

life. I know I just could not do it. I would like to give the teachers the

money that we spend on movie stars and athletes. Too bad we don't treat them

like we should.

Cooky

_____

From: rheumatic [mailto:rheumatic ] On Behalf

Of Lynne and Santos

Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 12:22 PM

rheumatic

Subject: Re: rheumatic Pricey pills work better even when they're fake

Gi Cookie;

Knowing Dolores I think that she meant what you are saying.Some

people really need meds and others are chronic complainers that need

attention more than anything.Then there are the boarded line cases that

I would never be able to figure out because I have never worked with

sick people.I have to tip my hat to anyone who has ever worked in the

medical filed as that strikes me as the most difficult job possible. Lynne

<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=93429/grpspId=1705061610/msgId=4

7648/stime=1204910521/nc1=5191949/nc2=5191951/nc3=3848642>

March 7, 2008

Hi Cooky;

I dealt with people a good part of my life.First as a ballerina and

the public was great.After I worked for Air Canada as a ticket /gate

agent and ran into some real " goodies " Just try to tell 10 people that

you are taking them off a flight because their weight is needed to put

on extra fuel or mail.Nealy got lynched a million times.It was rough

dealing with people that were well and I can't imagine what it would be

like if they were sick. Lynne

> That's nice of you to say that. I think being a teacher is the hardest

> job.

> You have to be " up " for the kids all day. Patience of a saint. Dealing

> with

> parents. The responsibility of the future is on your shoulders. I think I

> would want to take all the kids home with me that do not have a good home

> life. I know I just could not do it. I would like to give the teachers the

> money that we spend on movie stars and athletes. Too bad we don't

> treat them

> like we should.

>

> Cooky

>

> _____

>

> From: rheumatic@grou ps.com <mailto:rheumatic%40>

> [mailto:rheumatic@grou ps.com

> <mailto:rheumatic%40>] On Behalf

> Of Lynne and Santos

> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 12:22 PM

> rheumatic@grou ps.com <mailto:rheumatic%40>

> Subject: Re: rheumatic Pricey pills work better even when they're fake

>

> Gi Cookie;

> Knowing Dolores I think that she meant what you are saying.Some

> people really need meds and others are chronic complainers that need

> attention more than anything.Then there are the boarded line cases that

> I would never be able to figure out because I have never worked with

> sick people.I have to tip my hat to anyone who has ever worked in the

> medical filed as that strikes me as the most difficult job possible. Lynne

>

> <http://geo.. com/serv? s=97359714/ grpId=93429/ grpspId=17050616

> 10/msgId= 4

> <http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=93429/grpspId=1705061610/msgId=4>

> 7648/stime=12049105 21/nc1=5191949/ nc2=5191951/ nc3=3848642>

>

March 7, 2008

Gosh, I agree. Teachers have a huge job... kids can be so

rambunctious. Teachers are trying to lay a foundation of the future!

Amy

C Stonkey wrote:

>

> That's nice of you to say that. I think being a teacher is the hardest

> job.

> You have to be " up " for the kids all day. Patience of a saint. Dealing

> with

> parents. The responsibility of the future is on your shoulders. I think I

> would want to take all the kids home with me that do not have a good home

> life. I know I just could not do it. I would like to give the teachers the

> money that we spend on movie stars and athletes. Too bad we don't

> treat them

> like we should.

>

> Cooky

>

> _____

>

March 7, 2008

Hi, I don't know what is fair and unfair between doctors and their pattients.

Some doctors ordered placebos when they felt it was necessary. They know their

patients better than we do. Some patients come in for one or two days or just

overnight. If they came in on my day off, then I would see them leaving. For

all I know, Doc may be assisting his patient not to become addicted. Or maybe

there is a different reason. It was not my choice. I give what the doctor

orders. If I think it is downright dangerous, then I will notify the doctor and

get an explanation. This is how mistakes should be caught. I caught quite a few

in my day. That doesn't always happen. Making these sugar pills in maternity

was part of my job when it was quiet on the night shift. Where they went and

who got them was not divulged to me. The shoemaker doesn't always know who gets

to wear his pair of shoes. I also didn't work in the billing office, so I have

no idea if they were charged or not.

I don't believe that they were, but I don't know for sure. When charting, we

write down that the patient got a placebo. The billing office takes it from

there.

Extrapolating can take you many places in the wrong direction and the

conclusions can become askew. Nothing was ever implied. It was kept strictly

confidential between doctor and patient. And not every patient got a placebo.

Only the ones that had written doctor's orders and the supervisors who were in

charge had discussed it at length. Remember, this was 1966. Ancient history in

the medical field.~~~Dolores

kjdel1977@... wrote:

I feel that was unfair to the patients. Were sugar pills charged to

the

patients' accounts. To extrapolate, this means we should all be able to make

up our minds and get over our illnesses. Do you think this is possible?

Could I " think " my body out of deforming?

**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &

Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

March 7, 2008

Hi Cooky, A lot has changed in 40+ years. I graduated from nursing school in

1966. There were no patches then and there was no specialty known for

monitoring pain meds. The only way to control some of the pain in certain

patients was to give them a placebo once in a while in place of their pain med.

It stymied me when I saw that they would relax and go to sleep. Some, of

course, would not be calmed down. Then we would call the doc if there were no

alternate orders. I gave plenty of morphine shots and one of the side effects

of too much morphine is that it depresses the respirations which could lead to

death. In those days, we had to tow a fine line. We made our own IV's and were

responsible for doing a lot of the mixing that is now done in the pharmacy. We

drew meds from multi-dose vials. I even remember cleaning and autoclaving used

instruments and needles. Unheard of today!

You may have given a placebo without knowing it if you have been in nursing as

long as I was. BTW, I worked for a major hospital on Long Island with a high

standard reputation. You have seen the same spongy butts that I have seen from

injecting people with so much Demerol and MS. After a while, these meds just

don't work anymore because the patient has developed a high tolerance to them.

Today, we have different ways of dealing with pain and it has become a

specialty. During my educational time, we were subjected to work our mental

health rotation in a mental hospital where we witnessed a person being put into

Insulin shock and they were still performing lobectomies. Today, we look at

these practises with horror. But they happened. Yes, we have come a long way,

but we still have a long way to go. Thanks for letting me clarify some things.

Some of you weren't even born in 1966. Dolores

Lynne and Santos <lynneandsantos@...> wrote: