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Re: combining cortef and armour

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Posted
Posted

OK before starting the Armour, you need ot get that Ferritin up at least

to 30-40. Optimal would be 70-90 but your body wil nto accept thyroid

wihtotu getting it a bit higher than it is . The reason your TSH went up

is that with some cortiosl your body was able to use some of the thyroid

in your blood, but with the T3 being at the upper end, I suspect you

need more HC. Iron should be 150-200 mg daily of elemental iron in what

ever form you can utilize best. I would get the Ferritin lookign better

and poossibly raise the HC before adding in more thyroid.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

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Posted
Posted

OK before starting the Armour, you need ot get that Ferritin up at least

to 30-40. Optimal would be 70-90 but your body wil nto accept thyroid

wihtotu getting it a bit higher than it is . The reason your TSH went up

is that with some cortiosl your body was able to use some of the thyroid

in your blood, but with the T3 being at the upper end, I suspect you

need more HC. Iron should be 150-200 mg daily of elemental iron in what

ever form you can utilize best. I would get the Ferritin lookign better

and poossibly raise the HC before adding in more thyroid.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

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Posted
Posted

Wow, I didn't know my body wouldnt' accept the thyroid with low

ferritin...last month I tried westhroid for a week but I was so

irritable I quit taking it. It also contains some lactose so I

thought I might be reacting a bit to that.

The iron I have from my doc is called Ferrochel , it is 27 mg of

Bis-glycinate chelate...so I would need to take 5 + per day. AFter I

finish this bottle of 120 I could always switch to something better

if there is something you recommend. How long do you think it might

take to get the level up to 30-40?

What is the reason you think I should up the HC?

Is there a good resource that really gets into all these issues and

interconnections? I have the book Adrenal Fatigue, 21st

century...but it really only looks at adrenal issues and doesn't get

into thyroid/iron issues at all. I saw online the book by

Shoman " Living well with Hypo " ...does this book address the issues

better? I'm currently also in grad school studying dietetics so I do

want to understand the physiology and chemistry better (although that

is not my strongest area!).

thanks again!

Liz

>

> OK before starting the Armour, you need ot get that Ferritin up at

least

> to 30-40. Optimal would be 70-90 but your body wil nto accept

thyroid

> wihtotu getting it a bit higher than it is . The reason your TSH

went up

> is that with some cortiosl your body was able to use some of the

thyroid

> in your blood, but with the T3 being at the upper end, I suspect

you

> need more HC. Iron should be 150-200 mg daily of elemental iron in

what

> ever form you can utilize best. I would get the Ferritin lookign

better

> and poossibly raise the HC before adding in more thyroid.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

>

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Posted
Posted

>

>

> What is the reason you think I should up the HC?>

Your T3 is high b/c its sitting/stuck in your blood b/c it can't get

to the next step.

Cortisol is needed for your body to use the T3. As you add more

cortisol you will become more hypo as the extra thyroid floating

around in your blood is used up.

's book does not talk about cell receptors I think it might talk

about how high and low cortisol block the thyroid processing...I dont

remember a book that discusses the details...maybe google 'cell

receptors thyroid cortisol'

Tasia

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Posted
Posted

Ok, so i'm trying to understand this. If I increase the HC, my body

will be better able to use the T3? But I'll be MORE hypo as a

result? Why would I want to be more hypo if I can't take armour for

3 months till my iron levels go up? Will taking iron also make me

more hypothyroid?

sorry this is still new to me! I will order Peatfield's book which

will hopefully help...

thanks for everyone's input!

Liz

> >

> >

> > What is the reason you think I should up the HC?>

>

> Your T3 is high b/c its sitting/stuck in your blood b/c it can't get

> to the next step.

>

> Cortisol is needed for your body to use the T3. As you add more

> cortisol you will become more hypo as the extra thyroid floating

> around in your blood is used up.

>

> 's book does not talk about cell receptors I think it might talk

> about how high and low cortisol block the thyroid processing...I

dont

> remember a book that discusses the details...maybe google 'cell

> receptors thyroid cortisol'

>

> Tasia

>

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Posted
Posted

This makes sense to me...should I just try to up it one pill (5mg)?

Another question I have ...can I take the HC around the same time as

the iron since I need to take them at meals?

thanks,

Liz

>

> Liz a couple of the bets books I have read are Your Thyroid nad How

to

> Keep it Healthy by Dr Peatfield, and Safe Uses of Cortisol by Dr

> Jefferies.The reason I think you need mroe cortisol is the high

Free T3

> compared to the T4. If you had enough cortisll in your body that

would

> be lower as when cortils is too low T3 cannot enter the cells so it

sits

> in the blood causing symptoms rather than helping you.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

>

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Posted
Posted

Liz, I'm trying to think of a good analogy. Drs use a lock and key

example where the cortisol is the key that turns the thyroid lock...

The more keys that are available to turn the locks, the more thyroid

is activated until they have been used up.

Without the keys/cortisol, the locks/thyroid sit around and build up.

When you become more hypo while taking HC, it is a good sign. It means

your body is equipped with enough keys/cortisol to take on more

locks/thyroid.

Now, if you increase your locks/thyroid without the right balance of

keys/cortisol, you will not be relieved of hypo symptoms, and some

people build up a toxic level of thyroid in their blood.

Trust me, this will all click once you experience both sides of the fence.

Tasia

>

> Ok, so i'm trying to understand this. If I increase the HC, my body

> will be better able to use the T3? But I'll be MORE hypo as a

> result? Why would I want to be more hypo if I can't take armour for

> 3 months till my iron levels go up? Will taking iron also make me

> more hypothyroid?

>

> sorry this is still new to me! I will order Peatfield's book which

> will hopefully help...

> thanks for everyone's input!

> Liz

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Posted
Posted

Your analogy does make sense. I've been feeling so good on the HC

though, so the idea of increasing the dose and feeling more hypo

symptoms doens't sound good to me! But someone mentioned I may not

actually feel more symptoms? Guess I just don't understand what

people mean by " being more hypo " in this context.

I also am not clear on how much to increase the HC, and what I should

be looking for in way of symptoms or labs to know when I've got

enough cortisol... (i'm not doing adrenal testing, just TSH, T3, T4)

thanks,

Liz

> >

> > Ok, so i'm trying to understand this. If I increase the HC, my

body

> > will be better able to use the T3? But I'll be MORE hypo as a

> > result? Why would I want to be more hypo if I can't take armour

for

> > 3 months till my iron levels go up? Will taking iron also make

me

> > more hypothyroid?

> >

> > sorry this is still new to me! I will order Peatfield's book

which

> > will hopefully help...

> > thanks for everyone's input!

> > Liz

>

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Posted
Posted

This is helpful, thanks Cherie. I need to print out all these

responses and do some reading and try to get it all straight in my

head! I guess I will try increasing HC to 25 mg...but I can only do

it by taking 5 doses since I have 5mg tabs...anyone have

recommendations as to timing? Maybe take 2 in the morning? I

currently take one between 8-9 am, one between 12-1pm, one at 5-7,

and one before bed around 10pm. I do usually wake up once around 4am

to go pee which I never used to do...but i'm used to it now. I have

not been feeling like i'm really experiencing any major adrenal

symptoms since i've been feeling SO much better since being on HC,

but maybe I just don't know how much better I could be feeling! I

think most of my current symptoms are from low ferritin--losing hair,

some fatigue...although I do still have cold hands and problems

losing any weight!

Liz

>

> This is how I think about it. When you are low on cortisol, your

blood

> results can show up normal because the T4 and T3 are sitting in your

> bloodstream looking good. You aren't actually getting any use from

them

> though. Therefore you have hypoT symptoms along with low adrenal

even though

> your blood work shows normal. When you start taking HC the T3 in

your blood

> actually gets into the cells and you may have a surge of well being

(or a

> thyroid dump depending on levels). When the T3 is used up, your

body still

> isn't able to produce enough for your body even though you have

more HC from

> taking it. So your lab work will show up more accurately (with low

FT3 and

> FT4) if you have a problem with low thyroid. Therefore you

are " more hypo " .

> Plus some of the low cortisol symptoms may start to resolve and you

will

> focus on the low thyroid stuff. Sort of like the old story of the

man saying

> " I wish I could forget about the pain in my back, arm, whatever " . A

friend

> hits him on the toe with a hammer. He hops around and curses for

awhile and

> says " What did you do that for? " The friend says " You forgot about

your

> back, arm, whatever pain didn't you? " :-)

>

> I'm not positive on all this stuff, but that is how I have it

worked out in

> my brain anyway.

>

> Cherie

>

> Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do

you

> learn.--C.S.

>

> > Your analogy does make sense. I've been feeling so good on the HC

> > though, so the idea of increasing the dose and feeling more hypo

> > symptoms doens't sound good to me! But someone mentioned I may not

> > actually feel more symptoms? Guess I just don't understand what

> > people mean by " being more hypo " in this context.

> >

> > I also am not clear on how much to increase the HC, and what I

should

> > be looking for in way of symptoms or labs to know when I've got

> > enough cortisol... (i'm not doing adrenal testing, just TSH, T3,

T4)

> >

> > thanks,

> > Liz

> >

> >

> >

> No virus found in this outgoing message.

> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.2/1221 - Release Date:

1/12/2008

> 2:04 PM

>

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Posted
Posted

Val,

I was wondering if you could give me a reference or link to more info

on why I would need to wait to take armour until my ferritin is up to

30-40 so that I can explain to my doc, and also so I understand it

better myself. I was looking on MIssy's old posts on your

stopthethyroidmadness site regarding ferritin and armour, and she was

not suggesting people wait till the ferritin goes up...so I just

wanted to clarify that with you. I'd really like to get my iron up

and hypothyroid issues started resolving asap so i'm anxious to start

on the armour, but not if my body really won't use the armour until

my iron goes up as you indicated.

You had also advised me to take more HC, and I wondered if going to

25 mg sounds ok...and whether to dose it 10, 5,5,5 or take 5 doses

throughout the day (I take cortef 5 mg tabs)

thanks!

Liz

>

> OK before starting the Armour, you need ot get that Ferritin up at

least

> to 30-40. Optimal would be 70-90 but your body wil nto accept

thyroid

> wihtotu getting it a bit higher than it is . The reason your TSH

went up

> is that with some cortiosl your body was able to use some of the

thyroid

> in your blood, but with the T3 being at the upper end, I suspect

you

> need more HC. Iron should be 150-200 mg daily of elemental iron in

what

> ever form you can utilize best. I would get the Ferritin lookign

better

> and poossibly raise the HC before adding in more thyroid.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

>

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Posted
Posted

Ok, so it's based on what you've heard from people on this forum?

Does Peatfield's book go into the whole iron issue? I'm just trying

to get more science behind my decisions on this as i'm sure you would

agree with doing. I do respect your experience, so if you tell me

you've had so many people try to take armour with low ferritin and

have it totally fail till they up their ferritin, I believe you...but

it's hard for me to make the deciison just based on your one statement

with no backup whatsoever. I really hope you don't take that the

wrong way...but people really should be looking to references whenever

possible...and I know in this field there is simply not enough good

science out there to provide the back up we need, so sometimes we do

just have to trust other people and their experiences!

Do you have any thoughts on how much i should up the HC?

thansk so much for your time...I can't believe how many emails you

answer on this board!

Liz

>

> You can certainly try to start Amrou but my exoerienc is thta people

> with very low ferritin can;t tolerate thyroid.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

>

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Posted
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Oh I don;t take it the wrong way, btu there is LITTLE written evidence

of most of what you wil gfind on this forum. It comes form MANY books

and hundreds of hours on this and STop the Thyroid Madness adrenal

forums and patient experince.I have seen some peolle do OK starting

really low on Armoru when their Ferritin was in the mid to high 30' but

I have seen MAY that could nto take Armoru at all and blamed it on the

Armour not agreeing with them, or too much T3 in Armoru and that is

bunk. I actually dont; knwo what is in Peatfield's book about iron as I

haven;t had low iron in many years and my books are all packed as I was

supposed to mive this fall till the house fell through but I haven;t

unpacked my books a I will be moving in Spring so can;t look it up for oyu.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

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Posted
Posted

Ok, thanks Val. I plan on ordering Peatfield's book soon, and of

course I don't expect you to look it up for me! I'll dig around a

bit, and will probably plan on working up to 200 mg iron, do that for

at least a month, and then maybe try a little armour and see how it

goes.

For the HC, do you recommend upping by 5 mg or should I do 2.5 or

7.5?

Liz

>

> Oh I don;t take it the wrong way, btu there is LITTLE written

evidence

> of most of what you wil gfind on this forum. It comes form MANY

books

> and hundreds of hours on this and STop the Thyroid Madness adrenal

> forums and patient experince.I have seen some peolle do OK

starting

> really low on Armoru when their Ferritin was in the mid to high 30'

but

> I have seen MAY that could nto take Armoru at all and blamed it on

the

> Armour not agreeing with them, or too much T3 in Armoru and that is

> bunk. I actually dont; knwo what is in Peatfield's book about iron

as I

> haven;t had low iron in many years and my books are all packed as I

was

> supposed to mive this fall till the house fell through but I

haven;t

> unpacked my books a I will be moving in Spring so can;t look it up

for oyu.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

>

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Posted
Posted

Hi,

What would happen if you are allready on Cortef and Armour 2 1/4 grains with a

ferritin

level of 24 and started to take Iron??, not really feeling much better.

Would you get thyroid dump?

Thanks

>

> You can certainly try to start Amrou but my exoerienc is thta people

> with very low ferritin can;t tolerate thyroid.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

>

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Posted
Posted

>>What would happen if you are allready on Cortef and Armour 2 1/4 grains with a

ferritin

level of 24 and started to take Iron??, not really feeling much better.

Would you get thyroid dump?<<

I dont; know. I woudl notthink so as your body has probably made a ton of RT3 to

protet yu from the toxic thyroid it could not use properly. I would have RT3

tested as taking ay med with T4 in ti if you are high in RT3 is

counterproductive.

--

Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

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Posted
Posted

That schedule only goes up to 20mg...i'm taking 20mg now and you had

advised perhaps increasing it, but didn't say by how much or on what

schedule...which is why I keep aksing the question. It sounds like

alot of people take 10mg in a.m. so I was thinking to do 10, 5,5,5.

>

> >>For the HC, do you recommend upping by 5 mg or should I do 2.5 or

> 7.5? <<

>

> We have a ramp up schedule in the fles section under how to treat

adrena;s.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

>

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Posted
Posted

Ok, thanks. generally i take it at 9am, 1pm, 6pm and 10pm...does

this need to be adjusted at all?

>

> 10, 5,5,5

>

> You could try this but some folks need more rythm than that so if

you do nbot sleep well or have low cortiosl symptoms you could also

try

> 10/7.5/5/2.5

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

>

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