Guest guest Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Hi Cooky, Cooky wrote: >>>I don't mean to sound " know it all " here or deny any of your statements about Lyme (I have not studied Lyme) I am just keeping the ball rolling :0 <<< No worries….I just hope I'm able to keep up with your knowledge and experience. To ensure I don't miss responding to anything, I've cut and pasted your comments in capitals and have done my best to reply after each. I've also put your comments in arrows like this: >>> <<< >>>THIS DEPENDS ON HOW NEW BORN HE IS. He may still have his mothers blood properties which would show he had Lymes. <<< Unless a child tests positive at birth and continues to test positive thereafter (this child was a small toddler when filmed), then it's plausible that this child had congenital Lyme, given that a previous stillborn of this same mother tested positive for Lyme and she suffered other early miscarriages. This mother was previously treated for her Lyme and yet both stillborn and healthy infant tested positive. >>>YES THERE IS CONGENITAL SYPHALIS. HER MOTHER WOULD HAVE HAD IT AND BEEN TREATED FOR IT BECAUSE SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN TESTED AT BIRTH<<< I think the trouble with standard testing is that people are showing sero-negative on their tests for Lyme, a different, yet quite similar spirochetal infection, but they are clearly still positive for Lyme, which is just in a dormant state. See the following: Columbia Lyme article and another study demonstrating persistence in neuroborreliosis due to latent cystic form of Lyme: http://www.columbia-lyme.org/research/keyarticles.html http://www.jneuroinflammation.com/content/5/1/40 In relation to syphilis, studies have shown latent, persistent late stage infection in spite of penicillin treatment - can be found here: http://www.lymenet.de/literatur/cystsl.htm 1. Sparling, P.F. Includes a review of recent [as of 1971] evidence indicating that penicillin treatment is not always curative in patients with late syphilis. " Penicillin therapy of neurosyphilis has not been as effective [as in early syphilis]. Several studies have reported relapses... Clinical progression of symptomatic neurosyphilis is relatively common despite antibiotics. " (p.650) [Diagnostic issues:] Some infected patients also British Journal of Venereal Diseases, 1968;44:1-34. (P) Further study of ultrathin sections of Treponema pallidum under the electron microscrope. 2. Yobs, A.R. Results of a 4-year study of rabbits treated with penicillin for late latent syphilis. Confirmed persistence of syphilis in numerous subjects after antibiotic treatment. Cortisone treatment can reactivate clinical disease. Offers various theories to explain the persistence of T. pallidum, including morphologic changes in the organism. However, the author believes that the existence of a complex life cycle with differing Vestn Akad Med Nauk SSSR. 1965;20(8):46-50. [L-forms of Treponema pallidum]. 3. Ustimenko LM in Russian. No abstract available. PMID: 5328461 UI: 66154896 British Journal of Venereal Diseases , 1964 Significance of spiral organisms found after treatment in late human and experimental syphilis. 4. Collart, P., Borel, et al Persistence of T. Pallidum after treatment. Organisms are still present but have lost their virulence. Cortisone reactivates clinical disease. Study 4 is very similar to the Columbia Lyme study above, demonstrating that dormant forms of syphilis exist after treatment and, though inactive in latent state, any form of immune suppression (e.g. pregnancy, cortisone, biologics, methrotrexate, etc) may reactivate both these diseases. >>> AND TREATED OR HAD DEFORMATIES DUE TO CONGENITAL SYPHALIS BUT SYPHALIS IS A SIMPLE BACTERIA THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ELIMINATED BEFORE ANGELA WAS BORN OR EVEN CONCEIVED IF SHE WAS BORN IN THE US. I think I'm going to have to beg to differ that syphilis is a " simple " bacteria. An unfortunate consequence of the belief that borrelia is a " self-limiting, easy to treat " infection (as argued by the Infectious Diseases Society of America) is swiftly being shown to be completely unfounded as more convincing research emerges. Spirochetal infections, when under antibiotic attack (any adverse conditions) will revert to cystic form. Unfortunately, the penicillins, as you have said, are bacteriocidal and kill bacteria outright by damaging the organism's cell wall. However, as both Brown and Poehlmann (author of " The Infection Connection " ) noted in their respective books, the penicillins will cause pleomorphic organisms to shape-shift into intracellular L-forms and, in the case spirochetes, resistant, dormant cystic forms. This appears to be the case for strep, too. In effect, people aren't cured of the infection, though overt, acute symptoms may be cleared by penicillin. It has just gone underground, deeper into the tissues and into a dormant state that can be reactivated via immune-suppression. This was why Brown felt it important to treat rheumatic patients with penicillin even in the absence of a positive strep titer, if there was a history of strep. Here are a couple of studies that demonstrate the pleomorphic and intracellular nature of syphilis and how they quickly change up forms within the body under adverse conditions (i.e. penicillin therapy): 1. Ovcinnikov, N.M., et al [Granules:] " Another mode of reproduction resorted to in adverse circumstances consists in the formation of spores which subsequently develop into new treponemes. The breakdown into granules is especially pronounced under the action of penicillin and immune sera. " [Cysts:] " Under stressful conditions, the treponeme 'packs' itself into a compact roll (Fig. 8) and becomes covered with a transparent mucoid capsule, which resists the pentration of drugs and antibodies. " " Encystment as a mechanism of survival and mode of reproduction is widespread in nature, especially among protozoa. " [intracellular:] T. pallidum were found inside a cell taken from the site of a chancre; and L-forms were found New England Journal of Medicine, 1971; 284: 642-653. Diagnosis and treatment of syphilis. 2. Umemoto, T., et al, " External observation of a spherical body by scanning electron microscopy clearly revealed the main bodies [spirochetes] running beneath the inner surface of the spherical body membrane [cyst]. " Includes a freeze fracture photograph of a cross-section of a multispirochetal cyst, Acta Pathol Microbiol Scand [A], 1977;pertenue (sic KMD) Electron microscopy of lymph nodes of hamsters experimentally infected with Treponema Blom J. Treponemes were found intracellularly in macrophages. These treponemes did not show their typically helical shape, but were present as spherical forms or cysts. J. Am. Vener. Dis. Assoc. , 1976;3(2):109-127. Biopharmacology of syphilotherapy. >>>IF TREATED AND HER MOTHER AT SOME POINT IN HER LIFE WOULD HAVE HAD PENICILLIN THERE IS NO WAY SHE WOULD HAVE PASSED THIS TO ANGELA. BESIDES THAT HER GRANDFATHER DOES NOT PASS BLOOD TO THE FETUS (HER MOTHER) JUST HIS SPERM.<<< Absolutely agree, the grandfather doesn't pass blood, but it's arguable that cystic forms of the infection could have been passed to the grandmother via seminal fluids and through the generations that way. I think the big question on all our minds is whether or not pleomorphic organisms can be passed in-utero… whether they are mycoplasma, spirochete, mycobacteria, etc. Evidence seems to be mounting that they can be passed in this way and may be a plausible explanation for how " autoimmune " diseases run in families, in addition to genetic predisposition, and certain genes potentially being switched on by these stealth infections. >>>IN THOSE DAYS THERE WAS NO PENICILLIN.<<< Yes, my example of the British royal family in days gone by was merely to exemplify congenital syphilis. >>> BECAUSE LYME IS A DIFFERENT ORGANISM EVEN THO IT IS SIMILAR.<<< From the research I've come across (as above), the jury seems to out on whether these two organisms are as dissimilar as many might claim. Dr Alan Mc who has done decades of research on borreliosis feels that these two organisms have much in common in the way they can mimic almost any disease, their persistent nature, their ability to cross the placenta and the similarities in the pleomorphic forms and how they behave when treated with antibiotics. >>>SYPHALIS TREATMENT IS 1 SYRINGE OF PENICILLIN OR 2 WEEK OF TETRACYCLINE AND THE BLOOD IS NEGATIVE. WHEN THE CHILDREN FROM THE INFECTED PEOPLE GET MARRIED OR HAVE SURGERY THEIR BLOOD IS NEGATIVE FOR SYPHALIS. SO HOW CAN THE MICE STUDY BE TRUE UNLESS THEY WERE GIVEN CIPRO (OR ANOTHER NON PENICILLIN TETRACYCLINE MED) WHICH HAS NO EFFECT ON SYPHALIS.<<< This is clearly the point of the studies above…that these organisms persist in spite of treatment, because in adverse conditions, they shape-shift into resistant cystic forms, leaving the blood stream, changing up their cloaking system (outer surface proteins with molecular mimickry capability) and burrowing deep into the tissues. In this scenario, the immune system doesn't pick up an invader, so there are no antibodies/antigens to test and the blood appears seronegative. 1 syringe of penicillin may indeed cause the organism to leave the blood and leave no trace behind, but if you examine the Columbia study and the Ovcinnikov, N.M., et al syphilis study (both above), these clearly demonstrate the persistence of these organisms in spite of short course antibiotic therapy. >>>WE ARE TALKING APPLES AND ORANGES HERE. Lyme need a long course of antibiotics.syphilis does not. Blood tests prove this. <<< Unfortunately, blood tests prove the blood is clear of the infection, but not that the body is clear of pleomorphic forms. Brown knew this about strep, as he described in the book with his rheumatic fever patients. He described how the body " walled off " infections often making them very hard to test. This has been the problem all along with the likes of mycoplasma - finding a way to consistently test for and prove the existence of these shape-shifting organisms in every rheumatic case. What is particularly odd is that even in patients who test seronegative for any form of mycoplasma, they still seem to do well on AP. It's also one of the reasons that when patients go for mycoplasma testing, a month washout period is commonly required for more accurate testing. Even then, however, this is not a guarantee that the blood sera will be positive. Some Lyme patients don't test positive on Western Blot for years, but are clearly infected. >>>I don't mean to sound " know it all " here or deny any of your statements about Lyme (I have not studied Lyme) I am just keeping the ball rolling <<< I understand, Cooky. I am just a layman, but I do love research and this has led me to believe we're not so much talking apples and oranges here and perhaps it's more a question of Macintosh and Granny apples? There is still so much for science to learn about these organisms and how they function and are able to persist. I was listening to an Amy Proal streaming video some time ago (can probably still be found on www.bacteriality.com) where a microbiologist states that it's estimated that we have only named 1 or 2 % of pathogens in existence. And, we probably don't yet know everything there is to know about the organisms we do know about. It's only recently become known that bio-films (much like the slime on the surface of a stagnant pond) are yet another feature of co-existing organisms, which protect colonies of pathogens and that different pathogens seem to communicate and work synergistically together to protect one another. Sheesh - talk about " intelligence. " This science daily study was pretty interesting in the context of strep, which states that no resistant forms of strep are known to exist, but that children who don't respond to the penicillins alone seem to have other organisms in their throat cultures that are actually protecting the strep and antibiotic combinations are often needed. They don't call it a bio-film colony in this article, but the inference is that this is what is happening in this context. http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2006/1007-sick_of_strep_throat.htm Needless to say, we just don't know that this might or might not be the case for and my intention isn't to raise the concern about congenital syphilis, but just to raise awareness that there is no simple answer to these organisms. Research today is emerging that these organisms are " intelligent, " they persist in spite of antibiotic treatments that target them and that they have the ability to hide successfully for very long periods of time and can cross the placental barrier. So, I'm not quite convinced we're dealing with a simple infection with syphilis. It's very common for late syphilis to require open-ended antibiotic treatment to control waxing and waning symptoms, much like Lyme, in spite of seropositivity or seronegativity. Thanks for the enjoyable chat, Cooky - again, this is just a layman's opinion. I'm not an expert, but I think there is much we don't know about these pathogens and much more still to learn. Peace, Maz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Just replying to one of the items below…latent syphilis is treated with crystalline IV penicillin… not…. Procaine Penicillin IM which is what first stage syphilis is treated with. In 15 years with the STD clinic I have seen 1 patient that needed treated with cristaline pcn even tho she was previously treated. Our clinic head felt since she was a prostitute she might have been reinfected. There was also a man that was treated and had a chancre and without doing tests…we retreated him. He also showed negative on testing. Again out clinic head felt it may have been too soon to be showing up in the blood if he was reinfected. Our head was all about treating anyone with a titre(positive test) and thinking about it later. Just a FYI here. There are STD clinics all over the US and in mostl doctors offices men are treated for prostate problems with Tetracycline 2 weeks( they also treat with cipro which does nothing for syphilis). This is enough to cure incubating syphilis. In clinics women are given tetracycline if they are a contact to an STD(except gonorrhea) with Tetracycline or erythromycin which can also treat incubating syphilis. In the US they stopped doing premarital VDRL’s and I think it was a bad move. My pet peeve with doctors and Lymes is that they don’t believe their own tests and any small difference in symptoms and that negates a Lyme diagnosis. Don’t have time to comment on anything else….will get back to you later. cooky From: rheumatic [mailto:rheumatic ] On Behalf Of momazmat@... Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:27 PM rheumatic Subject: rheumatic To Cooky - Re: FYI herx Hi Cooky, Cooky wrote: >>>I don't mean to sound " know it all " here or deny any of your statements about Lyme (I have not studied Lyme) I am just keeping the ball rolling :0 <<< No worries….I just hope I'm able to keep up with your knowledge and experience. To ensure I don't miss responding to anything, I've cut and pasted your comments in capitals and have done my best to reply after each. I've also put your comments in arrows like this: >>> <<< >>>THIS DEPENDS ON HOW NEW BORN HE IS. He may still have his mothers blood properties which would show he had Lymes. <<< Unless a child tests positive at birth and continues to test positive thereafter (this child was a small toddler when filmed), then it's plausible that this child had congenital Lyme, given that a previous stillborn of this same mother tested positive for Lyme and she suffered other early miscarriages. This mother was previously treated for her Lyme and yet both stillborn and healthy infant tested positive. >>>YES THERE IS CONGENITAL SYPHALIS. HER MOTHER WOULD HAVE HAD IT AND BEEN TREATED FOR IT BECAUSE SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN TESTED AT BIRTH<<< I think the trouble with standard testing is that people are showing sero-negative on their tests for Lyme, a different, yet quite similar spirochetal infection, but they are clearly still positive for Lyme, which is just in a dormant state. See the following: Columbia Lyme article and another study demonstrating persistence in neuroborreliosis due to latent cystic form of Lyme: http://www.columbia-lyme.org/research/keyarticles.html http://www.jneuroinflammation.com/content/5/1/40 In relation to syphilis, studies have shown latent, persistent late stage infection in spite of penicillin treatment - can be found here: http://www.lymenet.de/literatur/cystsl.htm 1. Sparling, P.F. Includes a review of recent [as of 1971] evidence indicating that penicillin treatment is not always curative in patients with late syphilis. " Penicillin therapy of neurosyphilis has not been as effective [as in early syphilis]. Several studies have reported relapses... Clinical progression of symptomatic neurosyphilis is relatively common despite antibiotics. " (p.650) [Diagnostic issues:] Some infected patients also British Journal of Venereal Diseases, 1968;44:1-34. (P) Further study of ultrathin sections of Treponema pallidum under the electron microscrope. 2. Yobs, A.R. Results of a 4-year study of rabbits treated with penicillin for late latent syphilis. Confirmed persistence of syphilis in numerous subjects after antibiotic treatment. Cortisone treatment can reactivate clinical disease. Offers various theories to explain the persistence of T. pallidum, including morphologic changes in the organism. However, the author believes that the existence of a complex life cycle with differing Vestn Akad Med Nauk SSSR. 1965;20(8):46-50. [L-forms of Treponema pallidum]. 3. Ustimenko LM in Russian. No abstract available. PMID: 5328461 UI: 66154896 British Journal of Venereal Diseases , 1964 Significance of spiral organisms found after treatment in late human and experimental syphilis. 4. Collart, P., Borel, et al Persistence of T. Pallidum after treatment. Organisms are still present but have lost their virulence. Cortisone reactivates clinical disease. Study 4 is very similar to the Columbia Lyme study above, demonstrating that dormant forms of syphilis exist after treatment and, though inactive in latent state, any form of immune suppression (e.g. pregnancy, cortisone, biologics, methrotrexate, etc) may reactivate both these diseases. >>> AND TREATED OR HAD DEFORMATIES DUE TO CONGENITAL SYPHALIS BUT SYPHALIS IS A SIMPLE BACTERIA THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ELIMINATED BEFORE ANGELA WAS BORN OR EVEN CONCEIVED IF SHE WAS BORN IN THE US. I think I'm going to have to beg to differ that syphilis is a " simple " bacteria. An unfortunate consequence of the belief that borrelia is a " self-limiting, easy to treat " infection (as argued by the Infectious Diseases Society of America) is swiftly being shown to be completely unfounded as more convincing research emerges. Spirochetal infections, when under antibiotic attack (any adverse conditions) will revert to cystic form. Unfortunately, the penicillins, as you have said, are bacteriocidal and kill bacteria outright by damaging the organism's cell wall. However, as both Brown and Poehlmann (author of " The Infection Connection " ) noted in their respective books, the penicillins will cause pleomorphic organisms to shape-shift into intracellular L-forms and, in the case spirochetes, resistant, dormant cystic forms. This appears to be the case for strep, too. In effect, people aren't cured of the infection, though overt, acute symptoms may be cleared by penicillin. It has just gone underground, deeper into the tissues and into a dormant state that can be reactivated via immune-suppression. This was why Brown felt it important to treat rheumatic patients with penicillin even in the absence of a positive strep titer, if there was a history of strep. Here are a couple of studies that demonstrate the pleomorphic and intracellular nature of syphilis and how they quickly change up forms within the body under adverse conditions (i.e. penicillin therapy): 1. Ovcinnikov, N.M., et al [Granules:] " Another mode of reproduction resorted to in adverse circumstances consists in the formation of spores which subsequently develop into new treponemes. The breakdown into granules is especially pronounced under the action of penicillin and immune sera. " [Cysts:] " Under stressful conditions, the treponeme 'packs' itself into a compact roll (Fig. 8) and becomes covered with a transparent mucoid capsule, which resists the pentration of drugs and antibodies. " " Encystment as a mechanism of survival and mode of reproduction is widespread in nature, especially among protozoa. " [intracellular:] T. pallidum were found inside a cell taken from the site of a chancre; and L-forms were found New England Journal of Medicine, 1971; 284: 642-653. Diagnosis and treatment of syphilis. 2. Umemoto, T., et al, " External observation of a spherical body by scanning electron microscopy clearly revealed the main bodies [spirochetes] running beneath the inner surface of the spherical body membrane [cyst]. " Includes a freeze fracture photograph of a cross-section of a multispirochetal cyst, Acta Pathol Microbiol Scand [A], 1977;pertenue (sic KMD) Electron microscopy of lymph nodes of hamsters experimentally infected with Treponema Blom J. Treponemes were found intracellularly in macrophages. These treponemes did not show their typically helical shape, but were present as spherical forms or cysts. J. Am. Vener. Dis. Assoc. , 1976;3(2):109-127. Biopharmacology of syphilotherapy. >>>IF TREATED AND HER MOTHER AT SOME POINT IN HER LIFE WOULD HAVE HAD PENICILLIN THERE IS NO WAY SHE WOULD HAVE PASSED THIS TO ANGELA. BESIDES THAT HER GRANDFATHER DOES NOT PASS BLOOD TO THE FETUS (HER MOTHER) JUST HIS SPERM.<<< Absolutely agree, the grandfather doesn't pass blood, but it's arguable that cystic forms of the infection could have been passed to the grandmother via seminal fluids and through the generations that way. I think the big question on all our minds is whether or not pleomorphic organisms can be passed in-utero… whether they are mycoplasma, spirochete, mycobacteria, etc. Evidence seems to be mounting that they can be passed in this way and may be a plausible explanation for how " autoimmune " diseases run in families, in addition to genetic predisposition, and certain genes potentially being switched on by these stealth infections. >>>IN THOSE DAYS THERE WAS NO PENICILLIN.<<< Yes, my example of the British royal family in days gone by was merely to exemplify congenital syphilis. >>> BECAUSE LYME IS A DIFFERENT ORGANISM EVEN THO IT IS SIMILAR.<<< From the research I've come across (as above), the jury seems to out on whether these two organisms are as dissimilar as many might claim. Dr Alan Mc who has done decades of research on borreliosis feels that these two organisms have much in common in the way they can mimic almost any disease, their persistent nature, their ability to cross the placenta and the similarities in the pleomorphic forms and how they behave when treated with antibiotics. >>>SYPHALIS TREATMENT IS 1 SYRINGE OF PENICILLIN OR 2 WEEK OF TETRACYCLINE AND THE BLOOD IS NEGATIVE. WHEN THE CHILDREN FROM THE INFECTED PEOPLE GET MARRIED OR HAVE SURGERY THEIR BLOOD IS NEGATIVE FOR SYPHALIS. SO HOW CAN THE MICE STUDY BE TRUE UNLESS THEY WERE GIVEN CIPRO (OR ANOTHER NON PENICILLIN TETRACYCLINE MED) WHICH HAS NO EFFECT ON SYPHALIS.<<< This is clearly the point of the studies above…that these organisms persist in spite of treatment, because in adverse conditions, they shape-shift into resistant cystic forms, leaving the blood stream, changing up their cloaking system (outer surface proteins with molecular mimickry capability) and burrowing deep into the tissues. In this scenario, the immune system doesn't pick up an invader, so there are no antibodies/antigens to test and the blood appears seronegative. 1 syringe of penicillin may indeed cause the organism to leave the blood and leave no trace behind, but if you examine the Columbia study and the Ovcinnikov, N.M., et al syphilis study (both above), these clearly demonstrate the persistence of these organisms in spite of short course antibiotic therapy. >>>WE ARE TALKING APPLES AND ORANGES HERE. Lyme need a long course of antibiotics.syphilis does not. Blood tests prove this. <<< Unfortunately, blood tests prove the blood is clear of the infection, but not that the body is clear of pleomorphic forms. Brown knew this about strep, as he described in the book with his rheumatic fever patients. He described how the body " walled off " infections often making them very hard to test. This has been the problem all along with the likes of mycoplasma - finding a way to consistently test for and prove the existence of these shape-shifting organisms in every rheumatic case. What is particularly odd is that even in patients who test seronegative for any form of mycoplasma, they still seem to do well on AP. It's also one of the reasons that when patients go for mycoplasma testing, a month washout period is commonly required for more accurate testing. Even then, however, this is not a guarantee that the blood sera will be positive. Some Lyme patients don't test positive on Western Blot for years, but are clearly infected. >>>I don't mean to sound " know it all " here or deny any of your statements about Lyme (I have not studied Lyme) I am just keeping the ball rolling <<< I understand, Cooky. I am just a layman, but I do love research and this has led me to believe we're not so much talking apples and oranges here and perhaps it's more a question of Macintosh and Granny apples? There is still so much for science to learn about these organisms and how they function and are able to persist. I was listening to an Amy Proal streaming video some time ago (can probably still be found on www.bacteriality.com) where a microbiologist states that it's estimated that we have only named 1 or 2 % of pathogens in existence. And, we probably don't yet know everything there is to know about the organisms we do know about. It's only recently become known that bio-films (much like the slime on the surface of a stagnant pond) are yet another feature of co-existing organisms, which protect colonies of pathogens and that different pathogens seem to communicate and work synergistically together to protect one another. Sheesh - talk about " intelligence. " This science daily study was pretty interesting in the context of strep, which states that no resistant forms of strep are known to exist, but that children who don't respond to the penicillins alone seem to have other organisms in their throat cultures that are actually protecting the strep and antibiotic combinations are often needed. They don't call it a bio-film colony in this article, but the inference is that this is what is happening in this context. http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2006/1007-sick_of_strep_throat.htm Needless to say, we just don't know that this might or might not be the case for and my intention isn't to raise the concern about congenital syphilis, but just to raise awareness that there is no simple answer to these organisms. Research today is emerging that these organisms are " intelligent, " they persist in spite of antibiotic treatments that target them and that they have the ability to hide successfully for very long periods of time and can cross the placental barrier. So, I'm not quite convinced we're dealing with a simple infection with syphilis. It's very common for late syphilis to require open-ended antibiotic treatment to control waxing and waning symptoms, much like Lyme, in spite of seropositivity or seronegativity. Thanks for the enjoyable chat, Cooky - again, this is just a layman's opinion. I'm not an expert, but I think there is much we don't know about these pathogens and much more still to learn. Peace, Maz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Yes I too enjoyed our discussion. As a matter of fact I have lots of theories that a pooed by my fellow nurses who went thru rheumatoid with me. One thing I noticed was that the article you quoted first was from 1970 and a lot of advancements have been made since then. I do not even know what type of PCN was given for syphilis then. Maybe it wasn’t enough for destruction of the spirochete. I need to tell you…… (can’t remember the exact time here) I started to have migrating pain and my lab did a test for Lyme on me. It came back positive. I saw a doc at the renoun University of Pittsburgh where I had a physical etc done by a resident and then a Lyme renoun doctor came in. During my physical I told the resident I had a tic on me in northern Wisconsin questionable years back and in addition to my migrating pains I had a itchy rash on the back of my ankle but have never noticed a typical round target. She proceeded to tell this specialist in Lymes that she did not think since I never noticed a circle that I had Lymes. He said OK and left the room. Like I said before I don’t remember how long before I had constant pain and a high rheumatoid titre. I could have Lyme in addition to rheumatoid. Maybe that’s why when Minocin seemed to stop working after 4 years I started Tetracycline and felt great. Commenting of sperm from the father…you could be right about Spirochettes being there… after all that where he got it (grin). The only thing I want to point out is that if the child were born….it would have definitely had deformaties that were so bad as to cause death after a while or instutionalized for life. As for the Lyme children testing positive…sometimes as with syphilis a treated person has a marker (stain) in the blood that says the person has had syphilis in the past… this happens when the person was not treated in the 1st stage of syphilis. This may have been what happened to the children of the Lyme mother if she was not treated in her early infection. I wonder if there were any tests done on other children of Lyme mothers? As for cortisone reactivating these diseases…there sure would be a lot of people running around with syphilis. Just about everyone I know has taken it at some point. I just can’t believe it. I cannot open the other articles you sent. I’ll try again. Do you have any more articles on the spirochetes not being killed by penicillin that is newer? Gotta get to bed. G-nite Cooky Hi Cooky, Cooky wrote: >>>I don't mean to sound " know it all " here or deny any of your statements about Lyme (I have not studied Lyme) I am just keeping the ball rolling :0 <<< No worries….I just hope I'm able to keep up with your knowledge and experience. To ensure I don't miss responding to anything, I've cut and pasted your comments in capitals and have done my best to reply after each. I've also put your comments in arrows like this: >>> <<< >>>THIS DEPENDS ON HOW NEW BORN HE IS. He may still have his mothers blood properties which would show he had Lymes. <<< Unless a child tests positive at birth and continues to test positive thereafter (this child was a small toddler when filmed), then it's plausible that this child had congenital Lyme, given that a previous stillborn of this same mother tested positive for Lyme and she suffered other early miscarriages. This mother was previously treated for her Lyme and yet both stillborn and healthy infant tested positive. >>>YES THERE IS CONGENITAL SYPHALIS. HER MOTHER WOULD HAVE HAD IT AND BEEN TREATED FOR IT BECAUSE SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN TESTED AT BIRTH<<< I think the trouble with standard testing is that people are showing sero-negative on their tests for Lyme, a different, yet quite similar spirochetal infection, but they are clearly still positive for Lyme, which is just in a dormant state. See the following: Columbia Lyme article and another study demonstrating persistence in neuroborreliosis due to latent cystic form of Lyme: http://www.columbia-lyme.org/research/keyarticles.html http://www.jneuroinflammation.com/content/5/1/40 In relation to syphilis, studies have shown latent, persistent late stage infection in spite of penicillin treatment - can be found here: http://www.lymenet.de/literatur/cystsl.htm 1. Sparling, P.F. Includes a review of recent [as of 1971] evidence indicating that penicillin treatment is not always curative in patients with late syphilis. " Penicillin therapy of neurosyphilis has not been as effective [as in early syphilis]. Several studies have reported relapses... Clinical progression of symptomatic neurosyphilis is relatively common despite antibiotics. " (p.650) [Diagnostic issues:] Some infected patients also British Journal of Venereal Diseases, 1968;44:1-34. (P) Further study of ultrathin sections of Treponema pallidum under the electron microscrope. 2. Yobs, A.R. Results of a 4-year study of rabbits treated with penicillin for late latent syphilis. Confirmed persistence of syphilis in numerous subjects after antibiotic treatment. Cortisone treatment can reactivate clinical disease. Offers various theories to explain the persistence of T. pallidum, including morphologic changes in the organism. However, the author believes that the existence of a complex life cycle with differing Vestn Akad Med Nauk SSSR. 1965;20(8):46-50. [L-forms of Treponema pallidum]. 3. Ustimenko LM in Russian. No abstract available. PMID: 5328461 UI: 66154896 British Journal of Venereal Diseases , 1964 Significance of spiral organisms found after treatment in late human and experimental syphilis. 4. Collart, P., Borel, et al Persistence of T. Pallidum after treatment. Organisms are still present but have lost their virulence. Cortisone reactivates clinical disease. Study 4 is very similar to the Columbia Lyme study above, demonstrating that dormant forms of syphilis exist after treatment and, though inactive in latent state, any form of immune suppression (e.g. pregnancy, cortisone, biologics, methrotrexate, etc) may reactivate both these diseases. >>> AND TREATED OR HAD DEFORMATIES DUE TO CONGENITAL SYPHALIS BUT SYPHALIS IS A SIMPLE BACTERIA THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ELIMINATED BEFORE ANGELA WAS BORN OR EVEN CONCEIVED IF SHE WAS BORN IN THE US. I think I'm going to have to beg to differ that syphilis is a " simple " bacteria. An unfortunate consequence of the belief that borrelia is a " self-limiting, easy to treat " infection (as argued by the Infectious Diseases Society of America) is swiftly being shown to be completely unfounded as more convincing research emerges. Spirochetal infections, when under antibiotic attack (any adverse conditions) will revert to cystic form. Unfortunately, the penicillins, as you have said, are bacteriocidal and kill bacteria outright by damaging the organism's cell wall. However, as both Brown and Poehlmann (author of " The Infection Connection " ) noted in their respective books, the penicillins will cause pleomorphic organisms to shape-shift into intracellular L-forms and, in the case spirochetes, resistant, dormant cystic forms. This appears to be the case for strep, too. In effect, people aren't cured of the infection, though overt, acute symptoms may be cleared by penicillin. It has just gone underground, deeper into the tissues and into a dormant state that can be reactivated via immune-suppression. This was why Brown felt it important to treat rheumatic patients with penicillin even in the absence of a positive strep titer, if there was a history of strep. Here are a couple of studies that demonstrate the pleomorphic and intracellular nature of syphilis and how they quickly change up forms within the body under adverse conditions (i.e. penicillin therapy): 1. Ovcinnikov, N.M., et al [Granules:] " Another mode of reproduction resorted to in adverse circumstances consists in the formation of spores which subsequently develop into new treponemes. The breakdown into granules is especially pronounced under the action of penicillin and immune sera. " [Cysts:] " Under stressful conditions, the treponeme 'packs' itself into a compact roll (Fig. 8) and becomes covered with a transparent mucoid capsule, which resists the pentration of drugs and antibodies. " " Encystment as a mechanism of survival and mode of reproduction is widespread in nature, especially among protozoa. " [intracellular:] T. pallidum were found inside a cell taken from the site of a chancre; and L-forms were found New England Journal of Medicine, 1971; 284: 642-653. Diagnosis and treatment of syphilis. 2. Umemoto, T., et al, " External observation of a spherical body by scanning electron microscopy clearly revealed the main bodies [spirochetes] running beneath the inner surface of the spherical body membrane [cyst]. " Includes a freeze fracture photograph of a cross-section of a multispirochetal cyst, Acta Pathol Microbiol Scand [A], 1977;pertenue (sic KMD) Electron microscopy of lymph nodes of hamsters experimentally infected with Treponema Blom J. Treponemes were found intracellularly in macrophages. These treponemes did not show their typically helical shape, but were present as spherical forms or cysts. J. Am. Vener. Dis. Assoc. , 1976;3(2):109-127. Biopharmacology of syphilotherapy. >>>IF TREATED AND HER MOTHER AT SOME POINT IN HER LIFE WOULD HAVE HAD PENICILLIN THERE IS NO WAY SHE WOULD HAVE PASSED THIS TO ANGELA. BESIDES THAT HER GRANDFATHER DOES NOT PASS BLOOD TO THE FETUS (HER MOTHER) JUST HIS SPERM.<<< Absolutely agree, the grandfather doesn't pass blood, but it's arguable that cystic forms of the infection could have been passed to the grandmother via seminal fluids and through the generations that way. I think the big question on all our minds is whether or not pleomorphic organisms can be passed in-utero… whether they are mycoplasma, spirochete, mycobacteria, etc. Evidence seems to be mounting that they can be passed in this way and may be a plausible explanation for how " autoimmune " diseases run in families, in addition to genetic predisposition, and certain genes potentially being switched on by these stealth infections. >>>IN THOSE DAYS THERE WAS NO PENICILLIN.<<< Yes, my example of the British royal family in days gone by was merely to exemplify congenital syphilis. >>> BECAUSE LYME IS A DIFFERENT ORGANISM EVEN THO IT IS SIMILAR.<<< From the research I've come across (as above), the jury seems to out on whether these two organisms are as dissimilar as many might claim. Dr Alan Mc who has done decades of research on borreliosis feels that these two organisms have much in common in the way they can mimic almost any disease, their persistent nature, their ability to cross the placenta and the similarities in the pleomorphic forms and how they behave when treated with antibiotics. >>>SYPHALIS TREATMENT IS 1 SYRINGE OF PENICILLIN OR 2 WEEK OF TETRACYCLINE AND THE BLOOD IS NEGATIVE. WHEN THE CHILDREN FROM THE INFECTED PEOPLE GET MARRIED OR HAVE SURGERY THEIR BLOOD IS NEGATIVE FOR SYPHALIS. SO HOW CAN THE MICE STUDY BE TRUE UNLESS THEY WERE GIVEN CIPRO (OR ANOTHER NON PENICILLIN TETRACYCLINE MED) WHICH HAS NO EFFECT ON SYPHALIS.<<< This is clearly the point of the studies above…that these organisms persist in spite of treatment, because in adverse conditions, they shape-shift into resistant cystic forms, leaving the blood stream, changing up their cloaking system (outer surface proteins with molecular mimickry capability) and burrowing deep into the tissues. In this scenario, the immune system doesn't pick up an invader, so there are no antibodies/antigens to test and the blood appears seronegative. 1 syringe of penicillin may indeed cause the organism to leave the blood and leave no trace behind, but if you examine the Columbia study and the Ovcinnikov, N.M., et al syphilis study (both above), these clearly demonstrate the persistence of these organisms in spite of short course antibiotic therapy. >>>WE ARE TALKING APPLES AND ORANGES HERE. Lyme need a long course of antibiotics.syphilis does not. Blood tests prove this. <<< Unfortunately, blood tests prove the blood is clear of the infection, but not that the body is clear of pleomorphic forms. Brown knew this about strep, as he described in the book with his rheumatic fever patients. He described how the body " walled off " infections often making them very hard to test. This has been the problem all along with the likes of mycoplasma - finding a way to consistently test for and prove the existence of these shape-shifting organisms in every rheumatic case. What is particularly odd is that even in patients who test seronegative for any form of mycoplasma, they still seem to do well on AP. It's also one of the reasons that when patients go for mycoplasma testing, a month washout period is commonly required for more accurate testing. Even then, however, this is not a guarantee that the blood sera will be positive. Some Lyme patients don't test positive on Western Blot for years, but are clearly infected. >>>I don't mean to sound " know it all " here or deny any of your statements about Lyme (I have not studied Lyme) I am just keeping the ball rolling <<< I understand, Cooky. I am just a layman, but I do love research and this has led me to believe we're not so much talking apples and oranges here and perhaps it's more a question of Macintosh and Granny apples? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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