Re: life span (was Swank diet)

[Guest guest]

>> The lifespan issue is dealt with in my vegetarian paper. I think it

is myth

number 7. The belief that hunter/gatherers had short lives is simply a

lie. <<

, or anyone, if you know the answer let me know! I guess I may

just be an idiot, but it seems to me that everyone keeps comparing our

MAXIMUM life span today with the AVERAGE age at death of many years ago.

This is so pervasive, it's just assumed to be true and it shows up

everywhere! I heard Stossel at the end of some news report or other

make the offhand comment, " Of course, if I had lived back then I'd be

dead by now. "

Death in childbirth for babies and mothers, infectious disease at any

age (but especially in childhood), and of course traumatic accident at

any age were what drove down the average age at death, right? An

otherwise healthy adult didn't just drop dead at 45 because he had

reached his max, right?

Today we are able to keep alive mothers and babies that otherwise would

have died, and greatly reduced deaths from infection and accident, so

the average age at death is higher ... but the maximum lifespan has not

been extended by more than a few years, or am I just nuts? I can't

figure out where to look for the stats to back me up on this, but I know

I've seen them somewhere.

~ Carma ~

To be perpetually talking sense runs out the mind, as perpetually

ploughing and taking crops runs out the land. The mind must be manured,

and nonsense is very good for the purpose. ~ Boswell

Carma's Corner: http://www.users.qwest.net/~carmapaden/

-----Original Message-----

From: Dr. Byrnes [mailto:daxx404@...]

Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 8:25 AM

Subject: Re: Re: Swank diet and MS and the fat wars

The lifespan issue is dealt with in my vegetarian paper. I think it is

myth

number 7. The belief that hunter/gatherers had short lives is simply a

lie.

The physical activity is a lie as well. Its true that the Masai got more

exercise from running with their cattle, but what about other heavy

fat-eating native peoples who did not do such things? The idea that

hunter/gatherers lived these physically demanding lifestyles is another

lie

that has no foundation in fact--it is the agricultural peoples who bust

their asses for food. Hunter/gatherers typically work only 2-3 hours a

day--hardly a huge amount of physical activity. You can see Marvin

'

book CANNIBALS AND KINGS for more on this comparison.

All the best,

Byrnes, PhD, RNCP

http://www.PowerHealth.net

>From: " Meighen " <russellm@...>

>Reply-

>< >

>Subject: Re: Swank diet and MS and the fat wars

>Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 12:42:42 -0500

>

>Hi Doctor, and everyone on the list

>

>The WAP approach, its history, etc. make sense to me, too. However,

>when I

>talk about this with other people, they counter with comments about how

>these people (i.e. Masai) are very physically active, or, that our

>hunter-gatherer ancestors had short life spans. I haven't seen much

(that

>I remember) proving that these traditional peoples lived long lives.

I'd

>really like to have more back-up for this aspect of the issue.

>

>Thank you.

>

>Meighen

>

> >>> mmarasco@... 03/05/02 05:28PM >>>

>Welcome Carolyn,

>

>ly I am not familiar with Dr/Mr?? Swank. However I am familiar

>with the huge amount of contradictive information out there. I can

>show you study after study by reasonably reputable people who clearly

>demonstrate that the next time you eat a pat of butter you will

>instantly die on the spot and if your not careful your arteries will

>explode so violently that if your spouse is too close he will be

>injured or worse. I can show you the same number of studies that

>clearly demonstrate exactly the opposite and your quandy is the same

>one every honest person who does their homework faces at one time or

>another. Realize I speak to you as a former vegetarian low fat dude.

>Do you have any idea how hard it is to convert the patients you've

>educated so well into veggie low fat to NT/WAP. Let's just say its

>been fun. Just because I'm a professional doesn't exclude me from all

>this conflicting information. And any professional who says they are

>above it is either lying or just plain foolish. My decision once and

>for all in sorting all this out came following reading " Nutrition and

>Physical Degeneration " because as an insider of health care I know

>exactly how easy it is to make reasearch prove any point you'd like to

>prove, which on the face of it makes its credibility questionable 100%

>of the time. WAP simply observed what traditional peoples ate. So

>quite honestly regardless of what modern day contrived studies say

>whether they agree with fat eating or not they are irrelevant except in

>the case of possibly deepening our understanding. However the FACT

>that traditional peoples have conducted the most valid experiment of

>all for thousands of years should be proof enough to clearly say that

>anyone who is saying fats are bad may just make their next statement

>regarding the flatness of the earth. Although all the people studied

>by WAP would work to highlight, for those who would question the

>healthfulness of healthy properly made animal fats I only have two

>words... MASAI,ESKIMO. Researchers can take you out of your element and

>bamboozle you with tricky words and concepts. However you can avoid

>these tactics by not allowing them to surgically remove your common

>sense. When someone says healthy fats are bad ... ask yourself " in the

>greatest living human nutrition study of all time, how many masai diet

>of clogged arteries? " Answer? None.

>

>Carolyn, you're doing great. Keep asking questions and keep learning,

>you're on the right track, just don't let them remove your common sense

>from the discussion and you'll be fine.

>

>Sincerely,

>Dr. Marasco, BS,DC

>Cincinnati, Oh

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > Hi,

> >

> > I listened to a radio interview of Roy Swank yesterday (on KBOO in

>Portland) and just wanted to get some feedback from you well-informed

>folks. I am new to all this, and not a student of nutrition. The

>interview left me feeling as I usually do when I hear information about

>diet, especially fats: confused, distrustful, exasperated, and worried

>about what I am doing to my body. I am frankly blown away at the " war "

>out there concerning dietary fats. I have lately been picking up book

>after book and just skimming the section on fats... quite amazing,

>after reading NT. It is truly incredible the differences in opinions,

>even when evaluating the same studies.

> >

> > I think I may represent a large group of folks who have read NT:

>we are very taken with what we read in NT (and in my case my dr

>recommended the book to me, so I feel a sense of trust in it) and we

>may adopt many of the recommendations. BUT in the back of our minds

>some of us are still wondering " is this just yet another opinion that

>will be challenged and debunked, or is it close to " the truth? " . Just

>my honest feelings here. I generally am very, very excited about the

>NT approach and am quite " sold " on it. And I have been working hard to

>change my ways. But I guess that being a " layperson " in the field of

>nutrition it is hard to defend the NT position as well as many of you

>who are more well-informed. Thus, my question about Swank and your

>opinions on him.

> >

> > I haven't even looked at his book, but for those who don't know who

>he is here is what I do know: he did a long term study on the affects

>of diet on some MS patients. Low levels of fat from animals (other

>than fish and vegetables, i.e. olive oil -- notice how I am avoiding

>the fat acronyms, they confuse me!) allowed many of the MS sufferers

>they followed to live normal and long lives, according to

>the study. Okay, so what is up with that? Bad study? It is based

>on info he gathered in Norway that showed that those living off their

>farms had lots more MS than those living off of the fish at in the

>coastal towns.

> >

> > I am also curious if anyone has written a critique of Sally's book/

>Weston Price. I am asking in the spirit of research... I am just

>curious to hear what those who disagree with NT have said specifically

>about the book. I guess I like to hear the other side, it helps me

>learn.

> >

> > Also, the same radio show host who interviewed Swank will be

>interviewing the guy who wrote " The 8 week Cholesterol Cure " (not sure

>of authors name) and so once again I am sure I will feel

>massively confused! :-) Oh, well, at least I am climbing that

>steep learning curve at a steady pace. :-)

> >

> > P.S. I intend to write a short intro of myself soon and discuss my

>own health problems (briefly!). I don't have MS, but I do

>(supposedly) have fibromyalgia and have been achy, tired, and in pain

>every (* & *%^%# day for six years now. I hope it won't be too off-

>topic but I am interested to hear what your opinions are on the NT diet

>and fibromyaliga (as well as hypothyroidism).

> >

> > P.S.S. I am making chicken and rice soup today with lovely stock

>which simmered all day yesterday. In fact, I was skimming the stock as

>I listened to the Swank interview yesterday!

> >

> > Thanks

> > Carolyn

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

No you are not nuts but right on target.

Bianca

On Fri, 8 Mar 2002 16:43:13 -0700 " Carma Paden " <carmapaden@...>

writes:

Today we are able to keep alive mothers and babies that otherwise would

have died, and greatly reduced deaths from infection and accident, so

the average age at death is higher ... but the maximum lifespan has not

been extended by more than a few years, or am I just nuts? I can't

figure out where to look for the stats to back me up on this, but I know

I've seen them somewhere.

~ Carma ~

To be perpetually talking sense runs out the mind, as perpetually

ploughing and taking crops runs out the land. The mind must be manured,

and nonsense is very good for the purpose. ~ Boswell

Carma's Corner: http://www.users.qwest.net/~carmapaden/

[Guest guest]

What says a lot to me is a picture I saw of nearly two dozen Lakota men,

survivors of Wounded Knee the last Native American battle. Will have to

look up

year and try to find photo. The youngest was 89 with half over 100. Current

shortest male lifespan average in this country is 54 years and is that county

in South Dakota. The lifespan has been cut in half in two generations.

Wanita

At 04:43 PM 3/8/02 -0700, you wrote:

>, or anyone, if you know the answer let me know! I guess I may

>just be an idiot, but it seems to me that everyone keeps comparing our

>MAXIMUM life span today with the AVERAGE age at death of many years ago.

>

>~ Carma ~

[Guest guest]

> it seems to me that everyone keeps comparing our

> MAXIMUM life span today with the AVERAGE age at death of many years

ago.

> This is so pervasive, it's just assumed to be true and it shows up

> everywhere! I heard Stossel at the end of some news report or

other

> make the offhand comment, " Of course, if I had lived back then I'd

be

> dead by now. "

>

> Death in childbirth for babies and mothers, infectious disease at

any

> age (but especially in childhood), and of course traumatic accident

at

> any age were what drove down the average age at death, right?

I too am very interested in finding the answer to this. One of my

other passions (besides nutrition) is unassisted childbirth. I

believe that the numbers of mothers & babies who died in childbirth

in traditional cultures has been greatly exagerated in order to

justify modern intrusive childbirth methods. If anyone has any good

research on death rates & cause of death in traditional cultures I

would love to see it.