Herxing

June 21, 2008

I'm reading the input from everyone and if I don't exactly know what terms are

being used I look them up on www.wikipedia.org However, I don't know what

Herxing is.

Thank you all for sharing your experiences. I'm getting the mind set that I may

have to insist with the Doc, but also have to appear informed to show why I want

to give AP a try. If they are willing to prescribe the harsh dangerous

immunosupressive drugs why wouldn't they want to prescribe something much less

dangerous? Don't even the adds for these drugs on tv say side effects may be

some types of leukemia? Since I had such a negative reaction to the methotrexate

they may be more open to the Minocin.

I feel for each of you who are still suffering and hope and pray that you'll get

well again. , you've been through a lot, but you're still able to see

beauty: I hope all that's offered here by this wonderful group can help.

Deb

June 21, 2008

Hi Terri,

Thank you for the help! I now know what " herxing " means and have already found

Scammel's book on Amazon. I look forward to reading it and absorbing every

aspect.

I'm glad to hear you have seen improvement in your health and hope, I should say

plan, to be able to offer help to others like you have.

Thank you again. I'd like to enjoy the rest of my life and I'm going to try all

I can to do just that.

Deb

From: Brett & Terri <tdowney2@...>

Subject: RE: rheumatic Herxing

rheumatic

Date: Saturday, June 21, 2008, 8:47 AM

Hi, Deb!

I'm fairly new to AP, also, but I've been on the antibiotics since about

March. I experienced a fairly nasty Herxheimer reaction most likely because

I started in with a strong dose of 200mg minocin each day and 250mg of

azithromycin. The first week, I felt fabulous. By the end of that week, I

saw significant improvements for my RA, Fibro, and Psoriatic arthritis.

However, after that, I slid downhill for about a month where I was worse

than before. (the Herxheimer reaction) Then, I started slowly improving a

little bit each day. It was such a nice change of pace to wake up and find

a new joint that worked instead of finding another that no longer worked!!

I could be wrong, but as I understand it, the reaction is actually a sign

the medication is working because it is finding the micoplasms to work

against. If you start at a lower dose, I don't think it occurs as often.

I'm sure someone else can explain it better. I tried to see it sort of as

labor pain (a good pain) that was getting me closer to a result I wanted. I

didn't fear it (though it wasn't much fun) because I was excited to see that

the AP was making something happen!

I highly recommend reading the New Arthritis Breakthrough by Scammel. It

really makes everything understandable.

Blessings!

Terri

_____

From: rheumatic@grou ps.com [mailto:rheumatic@grou ps.com] On Behalf

Of deb gilford

Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 8:34 AM

rheumatic

Subject: rheumatic Herxing

I'm reading the input from everyone and if I don't exactly know what terms

are being used I look them up on www.wikipedia. org However, I don't know

what Herxing is.

Thank you all for sharing your experiences. I'm getting the mind set that I

may have to insist with the Doc, but also have to appear informed to show

why I want to give AP a try. If they are willing to prescribe the harsh

dangerous immunosupressive drugs why wouldn't they want to prescribe

something much less dangerous? Don't even the adds for these drugs on tv

say side effects may be some types of leukemia? Since I had such a negative

reaction to the methotrexate they may be more open to the Minocin.

I feel for each of you who are still suffering and hope and pray that you'll

get well again. , you've been through a lot, but you're still able to

see beauty: I hope all that's offered here by this wonderful group can help.

Deb

October 16, 2009

Yes, herx reactions can last even minutes or they can go on and on.

Also, some people only herx at night. Like a " night sweat " or a

freezing sensation in your bones and you can't get warm. Everyone is

different with them. Did your doctor advise you to give him extra

Magnesium? For some reason almost all Lymies are Mag deficient and

that would cause leg cramps if he is. It happened to me and both my

parents. It actually caused my bone density to go bad and I reversed

the test with Magnesium alone since my Calcium was normal. You could

have it tested if you want to be specific but ask the doctor about

it. Your son's reaction you should look at in a positive way: The

herx means that the meds are working (the bugs are being excreted) and

his feeling better the next day is a gift! Because the treatment is

working!

Suzanne

On Oct 16, 2009, at 8:01 AM, jchabot wrote:

> Okay guys,

> I realize your all getting tired of me, but i have to ask another

> question. The doctor told me that my son would get worse before he

> got better. I'm going to describe what has been going on to see if

> you think this is herxing or not. I have no idea how long a herx

> reaction would last.(a day or months?)

>

> My son started on the full dose of Zithromax on Saturday night, and

> I got him up to the full dose of the Rifampin by Tuesday. Anyway he

> has been up at night, starting on Monday crying of leg pains. This

> went on for three nights, up complaining his leg hurt and knee hurt,

> foot,etc.He has been tired and whiny all during the days too.. He

> also has had a worsening of his " tics " ,doing them constantly..

>

> Now,he got up this morning and was like a different kid, saying he

> felt great , smiling,laughing. I have not seen him like this

> literally in years. Is this a coincidence, or could it be working

> this soon? Can a herx reaction last only a few days?

> Any ideas?

> thanks

> Judy

>

October 16, 2009

A question from another newbie- How do you distinguish between a herx reaction,

and a symtpom of lyme disease that may be progressing?

Dara

>

> > Okay guys,

> > I realize your all getting tired of me, but i have to ask another

> > question. The doctor told me that my son would get worse before he

> > got better. I'm going to describe what has been going on to see if

> > you think this is herxing or not. I have no idea how long a herx

> > reaction would last.(a day or months?)

> >

> > My son started on the full dose of Zithromax on Saturday night, and

> > I got him up to the full dose of the Rifampin by Tuesday. Anyway he

> > has been up at night, starting on Monday crying of leg pains. This

> > went on for three nights, up complaining his leg hurt and knee hurt,

> > foot,etc.He has been tired and whiny all during the days too.. He

> > also has had a worsening of his " tics " ,doing them constantly..

> >

> > Now,he got up this morning and was like a different kid, saying he

> > felt great , smiling,laughing. I have not seen him like this

> > literally in years. Is this a coincidence, or could it be working

> > this soon? Can a herx reaction last only a few days?

> > Any ideas?

> > thanks

> > Judy

> >

October 17, 2009

Judy,

I'm not sure how long your son has been sick but you said he hasn't felt this

good in years? If so then he must have had lyme a long time and I don't think

its likely he has killed all the bugs in his system so quickly. I think its more

likely that some of the bugs were killed, hence the herx, but that most of the

others were driven into dormant forms such as cysts. This gives him more

temorary relief but his battle is probably far from over. Those cysts will

likely hatch open later when the coast is clear of abx and make him really sick

again. I would recommend reading Rosner's book " When Antibiotics Fail,

Lyme Disease and Rife Machines " to get a better understanding of why treating

with antibiotics often results in relapses and prolonged treatment times. His

book can be found at www.lymebook.com

Thane

>

> Okay guys,

> I realize your all getting tired of me, but i have to ask another question.

The doctor told me that my son would get worse before he got better. I'm going

to describe what has been going on to see if you think this is herxing or not. I

have no idea how long a herx reaction would last.(a day or months?)

>

> My son started on the full dose of Zithromax on Saturday night, and I got him

up to the full dose of the Rifampin by Tuesday. Anyway he has been up at night,

starting on Monday crying of leg pains. This went on for three nights, up

complaining his leg hurt and knee hurt, foot,etc.He has been tired and whiny all

during the days too.. He also has had a worsening of his " tics " ,doing them

constantly..

>

> Now,he got up this morning and was like a different kid, saying he felt great

, smiling,laughing. I have not seen him like this literally in years. Is this a

coincidence, or could it be working this soon? Can a herx reaction last only a

few days?

> Any ideas?

> thanks

> Judy

>

October 17, 2009

here is the info re Herxing and many wont like this

you cannot tell, your Dr cannot tell and the patient cannot tell what truly is a

Herx vs side effect from the treatment vs just feeling worse ( which is

cyclical) vs a flare ( a worsening of the infection itself).

there is NO test, there is no crystal ball and even " instinct " or " we just

know " wont help.No ART or muscle testing will be able to tell either.

they ALL can feel the same, look the same, smell the same and have similar or

exact same symptoms. Its a guessing game. Hopefully an " educated guess " but a

guess all the same.I have seen and heard a few claiming theyre herxing only to

find out " oops " they havent even been taking their meds in over 2 months--they

were on a meds vacation--and when tested there were no signs of die-off ( no

urine antigen shedding for example). a " herx " is defined as an intolerance

reaction ( and/or sudden increase of symptoms) due to the dying of bacteria,

hence exacerbated symptoms.

the only and best thing to do is to keep track of patterns and trends--that

means using a small notebook ( harder to lose than paper sheets) and note date

and even time of any oddd or increased or new symptoms. Along with the meds

taken and even timing of meals. Many of us feel worse right after meals and

assume its the meds or " die off " when later we find out that we have developed

dysautonomia and so symptoms may occur just after meals having NOTHING to do

with any die off or even the infection at all..

If those symptoms include for example feeling weak and yucky and faint, we

assume its a herx or side effect of the meds we just ate with the meal.we

totally ignore the fact that we may simply be over-reacting to the meal ( in a

physical/physiological sense, not emotional)--meaning our bodies are pumping too

much insulin or dropping our BP too fast. and so we miss define the event.

then when you and your Drs look back at the patterns, all of you can sorta kinda

and maybe gauge the next treatment step. In the meanwhile it shouldnt matter the

cause of the yucky--unless its a severe allergic or intolerance reaction to the

med requiring its d/c ( discontinuance). And at that point the symptoms usually

require medical intervention anyway and what theyll do is stop meds/herbs and

watch or treat for allergic reaction and watch.Then as the suspect item is added

back and if the same reaction occurs, and then again d/c and symptoms lessen its

pretty sure it was the drug/food or treatment itself.

If the treatment can be continued and the symptoms start to lessen there still

is NO way to tell if its due to a " herx " lessening, or your body getting used to

the treatment. Gaining " tolerance " .

Often this guessing game means having patience and simply supportive care--warm

baths for aches for example.and wait. to see if and when it gets better. Its

annoying, frustrating etc but when others announce " Im herxing " or even " I

know its NOT a Herx " I have to wonder why they dont know that they cant possibly

tell..

FWIW a Herx cant begin immediately--a true Herx is the increase of symptoms due

to a die-off of bacteria. There has been NO proof that Lyme, Bart or even Babs

sends out toxins ( after 20 yrs there isnt even any proof they HAVE toxins

within them- neuro or otherwise). And so it may simply be your body trying to

clear out dead bacteria cells. Lyme folks started to call it a " herx " named

after the Syphilis reaction described by a Dr Herxheimer and Dr Jarisch. Since

Syph is caused by a spirochete and so is Lyme--they adopted the terminology.

Lets presume there may be toxins, and theyre released when Lyme spiro's are

killed---and again this hasnt been able to be proven in over 20 years--but for

now we will assume it--well, the killing takes time, the toxins take time to

build and then cause a reaction,and so its VERY unlikely ( darn near impossible)

for this true Herx to happen within a few hrs of swallowing a herb/meds. Plus it

first takes time to digest and absorb that drug, for it to peak to a high enough

level in the body--and for some drugs we have to chemically change/metabolize

them first, too.

then when others claim they have a 2-3 week long " herx " I also shake my head. IF

they had that much toxin and it took that long to clear theyd have been long

dead from previous assaults--an earlier strep infection even would have killed

them.whats probably going on is some limited die-off plus a flare; or the meds

becoming less effective , even a cycle of worse symptoms for no explainable

reason, etc.

what would a true Herx reaction look like?? a worsening of symptoms timed with

the die off of " enough " bacteria cells so that the body is overwhelmed with

removing debris. and then the waning of that period back to baseline or better

than baseline. The timing??? again it can vary depending upon YOUR body. Youd

have to know how long until your body peaked levels of drug ( anywhere from 3-6

hours), then you have to know how long before enough bacteria die ( another

several hours to days), and then youd have to know how well your body can clear

debris--for many this goes on continuously as bacteria death occurs and no real

buildup happens.

How long do they last?? again depends upon your body--theyre expected to wane

(improve) within a few hours to days ( not weeks). And they tend to cycle since

the Lyme bacteria has a long reproductive period...and theyre mostly killed when

reproducing and vulnerable. commonly its thought every 3-5 weeks, if under

continuous treatment, the worse symptoms MAY be due to die off. Some women

parallell with their hormone cycles but that may be a coincidental timing

correllation--since we already feel aches and pains and have higher inflammation

monthly we may be simply feeling more sensitive to all aches etc and so it SEEMS

as if our Lyme cycles are aligned with our monthly cycles.

BUT this has timing of what a herx can/cant be a glitch--since many of us with

long term Lyme also have other forms of Lyme--cysts that are dormant and no one

knows when or how or even why theyll revert to active symptom causing forms

again. And L-forms ( no cell wall) that may or may not cause symptoms, but may

spark immune reactions with their own symptoms. and we can never know how many

or even the percentage of each at any given time and so we may feel what we

think is a " herx " and all it really IS, is a bunch of cysts and L forms having a

" party " and turning back to symptom causing spirochetes. and that would be more

of a " flare " or infection increase. we cant ever tell when a herx is simply some

more annoying cysts deciding to party.

we have a mass hypnosis and hysteria going on with too many thinking and

telling others that Herxes are happening within minutes to an hour of swallowing

a drug/herb--and that cant be.and that theyre herxing for weeks--again--no way.

But that doesnt stop anyone from believing that and passing along this false

gospel.

so how can you tell?? you cant. what to do?? supportive measures, keep track

and be patient.feel relief as these cycles lessen no matter their cause, hope

for longer periods between these cycles and stop passing along untrue

explanations and definitions.

be wellFinette

October 17, 2009

Hi Judy,

Noone is tired of you! Sounds like herxing to me. My son never had awful,

awful herxes. They typically only lasted a few days and for him equaled

muscle/joint pain, achiness and extreme lethargy (more than just usual Lyme

lethargy). I never saw him bounce back on orals too quickly .. Though I have

to say that when my other two boys and I got Lyme Disease we responded very

quickly to the antibiotics. That is, however, because it was diagnosed so

early. We all felt better within weeks, though we continued to take the

antibiotics for three months.

Perhaps he did have a healthy die off and your doc has given him the right

combo to treat the symptoms he saw. If he is showing improvement, it doesn't

mean that the spirochetes are all gone . they can indeed be in many forms .

but your doc will know what's going on because of the symptoms your son is

exhibiting. He will also prescribe different combos of meds based on what

form he thinks the spirochetes are taking/have taken. I say, take a breath

and be excited that he is showing some improvement! Enjoy the moment. And

stay on the meds that your doc is prescribing.

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of jchabot

Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:01 AM

Subject: [ ] herxing

Okay guys,

I realize your all getting tired of me, but i have to ask another question.

The doctor told me that my son would get worse before he got better. I'm

going to describe what has been going on to see if you think this is herxing

or not. I have no idea how long a herx reaction would last.(a day or

months?)

My son started on the full dose of Zithromax on Saturday night, and I got

him up to the full dose of the Rifampin by Tuesday. Anyway he has been up at

night, starting on Monday crying of leg pains. This went on for three

nights, up complaining his leg hurt and knee hurt, foot,etc.He has been

tired and whiny all during the days too.. He also has had a worsening of

his " tics " ,doing them constantly..

Now,he got up this morning and was like a different kid, saying he felt

great , smiling,laughing. I have not seen him like this literally in years.

Is this a coincidence, or could it be working this soon? Can a herx reaction

last only a few days?

Any ideas?

thanks

Judy

October 18, 2009

Thanks Finette- that was allot to digest - but it makes sense.

As for my 14 and 10 year old - after starting treatment for the first time they

did what I thought have 4-6 weeks of herxing.....I felt at that time it was

because we just started treatment for the first time. Since that time the girls

I feel get a herx every few weeks or so when their body just breaks down for one

or two days. But when they bring every virus home from school I know it takes

the girls about three times as long to get over it then " healthy " kids or should

I say kids without lyme and friends.

I was scared the first time my girls were so sick for so long - and it helped me

so much when other parents told me that kids will be ill due to the herx when

first starting treatment - and they all handle it different - for my girls it

was hard to see them so sick for all those weeks but I sure know they had to go

through it - and because of it it seemed that they became stronger physically.

AGAIN, I THANK YOU for all your insight into all of this - it's so hard to know

- I even have lyme myself and I have no idea - the main thing is that I learn

from you all the time and I am very grateful for that - I never even knew

about tons of other conditions and things to watch for in the kids -

Diane

________________________________

From: " FinRussak@... " <FinRussak@...>

; jchabot@...; suzlwilliams@...;

dara.alewine@...

Sent: Sat, October 17, 2009 12:48:50 PM

Subject: [ ] Re:herxing