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Re: My lowest avg temp ever

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I did that already...just skipped a 6.25 dose and will not add the 2.5 again.

One other thing I bet is involved. I just remembered this. I had always taken

a betaine capsule with every HC dose. I didn't the last 2 days because my doc

wants to do a stool test and can't take digestive enzymes for 5 days. I wonder

if just that change could have lowered my cortisol that much? I don't really

feel like I am having low cortisol symptoms though, just feel cold and foggy.

Any thoughts? Thanks Val. It is so helpful knowing that you have seen so many

others go through this.

>

> Lower the Cytomel bakc down until you get your ferritin results.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HypoPets/

>

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Val,

I added back the Betaine today and while I am still flushing, temps are going

up. Amazing to me how one Betaine capsule with each HC dose can make that much

of a difference. Anyway, it will be a week before I know my true ferritin, and

I do expect it to be up, but maybe not enough. I am beginning to think after

yestedays episode that I have very little adrenal reserve and while I hate the

thought of raising my HC from 32.5 (I am doing 10 at 8am, 7.5 at 10:30am, 5 at

1:30pm, 5 at 4:30pm and 5 at 10:30pm) I am expecting to have to go up. How

would you recommend an increase? I am guessing that I may shut down my own

production, but maybe I am not absorbing it all anyway.

Steve

>

> Maybe yo uare not absorbing the T3 proper;ly either.

>

> --

> Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

>

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

>

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HypoPets/

>

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Steve,

I have started taking a Betaine a 2 weeks ago and that's my 3th one and I see a

big difference too. My question is when you take the Betaine with the HC do you

take it without food? I was doing that also before I read on the website warning

not to take it without food. I can't have food any time when I take my HC dose

and the last days I have not taken the HC with the Betaine and I feel that also

affects my absorption of the HC.I just want to know if you are OK taking Betaine

without food and not to worry.

I hope you will get better and resolve your issues.I'm in the same shoes as you

are,so I feel for you.

Thanks

Milena

> >

> > Maybe yo uare not absorbing the T3 proper;ly either.

> >

> > --

> > Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

> >

> > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HypoPets/

> >

>

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Yes Milena I have been following you posts and fear I may be in the same boat.

I seem to be able to take HC with Betaine with and without food and it doesn't

hurt my stomach, but try to have food when possible. You are on higher T3 than

even I can tolerate at this point. What is your intolerance like? I seem to

get high temps and really hot and flushing, but never have been able to get my

heart rate too high. Waiting for my ferritin in about a week but if it is up I

don't know what else to do but raise HC and that didn't seem to help you? After

yesterday I am wondering if I am absorbing as much as I thought I was.

Steve

> > >

> > > Maybe yo uare not absorbing the T3 proper;ly either.

> > >

> > > --

> > > Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

> > >

> > > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> > >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HypoPets/

> > >

> >

>

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Steve,

My problems with higher T3 dose are a few things. First,I get to wired up,I get

anxiety and also I can't sleep long enough. I also had a period eating a

lot,which I'm not convinced is from high T3 but from high cortisol,which is so

confusing. When I think I figure some problems what causes it and do the changes

and it's not what I thought it is! I know that the eating part it did change

extremely when I lowered the HC dose and I stayed on the same T3 amount but I

did not have the crazy hunger anymore. With this symptom I thought I will be

good on lower HC,from 35mg to 30mg I'm 2 weeks now.From a few days I started

getting frozen and yesterday and today is extreme, so I bumped my C today to 32

again.I don't know what is going on and how to resolve it because I try all and

nothing works. The one I'm 100% is I'm vey hypo,my legs are heavy,my whole boidy

is heavy and I'm very tired.I also am very puffy in my face, my legs are

retaining water,my fingers are also fat. I have been living with this for 22

years and I have no doubt I'm very hypo. Just no clue how to get the T3 amount

my body needs it. So,it's very discuriging and very frasturating,that I know.

There is one mistery for me though ,which I can't expalin either.When I got my

iron IVs and was on T3 only in my second month I felt myself.I did not have any

of the hypo problems,no dadrenal problems I thought I got it right.I was like

that for 2 or 3 weeks and it really happened. Then I felt under a tremendes

stress and everything went downhill and since then,which is December I can't get

anything better.

When I felt extreamly well,I was on 35mg HC and 40mcg T3.I tried that again ,and

is not posible for me to go through more then a 2 days with this low T3.Why is

that nobody can teel me or give me any explanation. So,that is my whole jerny

for the last 5 months,even saying it can't belive I'm in this viscios circle and

nothing is getting better but what I still have is hope. So,yoo hold to the hope

and some day will be better for all of us.

Thanks a lot for your support

Milena

> > > >

> > > > Maybe yo uare not absorbing the T3 proper;ly either.

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

> > > >

> > > > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> > > >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> > > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HypoPets/

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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Milena. I feel your pain and I share your frustration. I wish that I could

offer suggestions. I am hoping that someone here can. It seems that with all

the swelling that there may be an electrolyte issue but I guess that could also

be the HC, although if it is truly a physiologic dose then you would wonder why

it would cause that much swelling.

One minute I am cold and thinking I need more T3 today, and then the next I am

sweating and hot. I have the same problem of not knowing what to do when I get

hot and flushed and I don't know if I should take another dose of something or

decrease something. I don't have proof yet if my ferritin is up, but if it is I

will have to just stay where I am and hope it gets better or push the HC higher.

I mainly know I am hypo by my basal temps and fogginess.

I do know how to pray and I will for you and everyone on this group.

> > > > >

> > > > > Maybe yo uare not absorbing the T3 proper;ly either.

> > > > >

> > > > > --

> > > > > Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

> > > > >

> > > > > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> > > > >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> > > > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

> > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HypoPets/

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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Steve,

Thanks a lot.From my expeirence I may tell you,without raising the

ferritin,there is no way to raise T3,be sure to find out what are yor levels.

It's so crazy because before I found the forum,7 months ago for a 2 years,I went

to many docotrs and all were saying a ferritin 13 is not any problem.That is

just not true,they have learned everything from their books and nothing is

included from the patients jerny. Thanks for your help and prayers.

Good luck

Milena

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Maybe yo uare not absorbing the T3 proper;ly either.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

> > > > > >

> > > > > > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> > > > > >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> > > > > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

> > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HypoPets/

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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Steve,

Thanks a lot.From my expeirence I may tell you,without raising the

ferritin,there is no way to raise T3,be sure to find out what are yor levels.

It's so crazy because before I found the forum,7 months ago for a 2 years,I went

to many docotrs and all were saying a ferritin 13 is not any problem.That is

just not true,they have learned everything from their books and nothing is

included from the patients jerny. Thanks for your help and prayers.

Good luck

Milena

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Maybe yo uare not absorbing the T3 proper;ly either.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

> > > > > >

> > > > > > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> > > > > >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> > > > > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

> > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HypoPets/

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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Steve - I don't know if this would help you or not. I remember a few weeks ago

we exchanged posts, as we were having similar things happen (iron IVs, hot

flushes, etc.) My ferritin is okay for now after the IVs. I was told maybe the

hot flushes were adrenaline surges which I had never had so noticably before.

I've been on HC since November and never had them before. The hot flushes only

started since I started T3 raises in February. I decided to try raising my HC

and if it stopped them great, if it didn't I would go back down (Plus I was

having other low cortisol symptoms I think partly from not stress dosing

properly for a really bad cold in January). I went from 30 to 32.5 and then 35

and they stopped. I maybe didn't have to go past the 32.5 - I realize now I

didn't wait long enough to see if that was enough. But within a day of going to

35, they stopped altogether and I haven't had any since. I am in the middle of

going back down to 32.5 and see if my temps stay stable, if not I'll have to go

back to 35. I've been able to raise T3 from 12.5 to 50 since February. I'm just

waiting to make sure of stable temps before I try another raise.

Once you find out for sure about your ferritin level, I read in one of your

posts that raising HC is something you're considering. If that's not it, you

can always lower back down.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Maybe yo uare not absorbing the T3 proper;ly either.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

> > > > > >

> > > > > > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> > > > > >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> > > > > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

> > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HypoPets/

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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Steve - I don't know if this would help you or not. I remember a few weeks ago

we exchanged posts, as we were having similar things happen (iron IVs, hot

flushes, etc.) My ferritin is okay for now after the IVs. I was told maybe the

hot flushes were adrenaline surges which I had never had so noticably before.

I've been on HC since November and never had them before. The hot flushes only

started since I started T3 raises in February. I decided to try raising my HC

and if it stopped them great, if it didn't I would go back down (Plus I was

having other low cortisol symptoms I think partly from not stress dosing

properly for a really bad cold in January). I went from 30 to 32.5 and then 35

and they stopped. I maybe didn't have to go past the 32.5 - I realize now I

didn't wait long enough to see if that was enough. But within a day of going to

35, they stopped altogether and I haven't had any since. I am in the middle of

going back down to 32.5 and see if my temps stay stable, if not I'll have to go

back to 35. I've been able to raise T3 from 12.5 to 50 since February. I'm just

waiting to make sure of stable temps before I try another raise.

Once you find out for sure about your ferritin level, I read in one of your

posts that raising HC is something you're considering. If that's not it, you

can always lower back down.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Maybe yo uare not absorbing the T3 proper;ly either.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

> > > > > >

> > > > > > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> > > > > >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> > > > > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

> > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HypoPets/

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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Share on other sites

Guest guest

Steve - I don't know if this would help you or not. I remember a few weeks ago

we exchanged posts, as we were having similar things happen (iron IVs, hot

flushes, etc.) My ferritin is okay for now after the IVs. I was told maybe the

hot flushes were adrenaline surges which I had never had so noticably before.

I've been on HC since November and never had them before. The hot flushes only

started since I started T3 raises in February. I decided to try raising my HC

and if it stopped them great, if it didn't I would go back down (Plus I was

having other low cortisol symptoms I think partly from not stress dosing

properly for a really bad cold in January). I went from 30 to 32.5 and then 35

and they stopped. I maybe didn't have to go past the 32.5 - I realize now I

didn't wait long enough to see if that was enough. But within a day of going to

35, they stopped altogether and I haven't had any since. I am in the middle of

going back down to 32.5 and see if my temps stay stable, if not I'll have to go

back to 35. I've been able to raise T3 from 12.5 to 50 since February. I'm just

waiting to make sure of stable temps before I try another raise.

Once you find out for sure about your ferritin level, I read in one of your

posts that raising HC is something you're considering. If that's not it, you

can always lower back down.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Maybe yo uare not absorbing the T3 proper;ly either.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > Artistic Grooming- Hurricane WV

> > > > > >

> > > > > > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> > > > > >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> > > > > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

> > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HypoPets/

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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Guest guest

Wow, thank you so much for the input. I do suspect I will have to increase in

order to do any more t3 increases. Just waiting on Val to hopefully get some

guidance as to how much to increase and where. I don't know if you are like me

but I'm always wondering with everything I do if it is stressing my adrenals.

Ever since I read here that a hot shower is bad. I really wonder if my adrenals

were ok on 20 HC before the switch to t3 because I could exercise without a

crash. I've now stopped that and I miss it. I will try to wait until I know my

ferritin before increasing HC but if my temps don't climb again tomorrow I may

go ahead. I should have a good ferritin after 4 IVs but my doc usually does 8 so

I'm wondering if I am getting less per dose than most.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Maybe yo uare not absorbing the T3 proper;ly either.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > Artistic Grooming- Hurricane

WV

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> > > > > > >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> > > > > > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

> > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HypoPets/

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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Guest guest

Wow, thank you so much for the input. I do suspect I will have to increase in

order to do any more t3 increases. Just waiting on Val to hopefully get some

guidance as to how much to increase and where. I don't know if you are like me

but I'm always wondering with everything I do if it is stressing my adrenals.

Ever since I read here that a hot shower is bad. I really wonder if my adrenals

were ok on 20 HC before the switch to t3 because I could exercise without a

crash. I've now stopped that and I miss it. I will try to wait until I know my

ferritin before increasing HC but if my temps don't climb again tomorrow I may

go ahead. I should have a good ferritin after 4 IVs but my doc usually does 8 so

I'm wondering if I am getting less per dose than most.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Maybe yo uare not absorbing the T3 proper;ly either.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > Artistic Grooming- Hurricane

WV

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> > > > > > >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> > > > > > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

> > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HypoPets/

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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Guest guest

Yes I've read about other people getting six IVs but I've noticed it is usually

people with a lower starting point than me (Mine was 32 and maybe higher as I

was heavily supplementing for two weeks after my last ferritin test before the

IVs.) I don't know if there is a difference too because mine was venofer and I

think I read in one of your posts that your doctor uses a different kind. Maybe

there is less per bag for that kind? Hopefully your level is high enough to keep

raising. I'm going for another ferritin test this week to see if I am holding

it okay just so I don't have to worry about it.

Too bad there isn't some sort of home use test system that we could use to check

our own cortisol levels. Swab our cheek for some saliva and stick it in a meter

or something! Wouldn't that be great? There are so many cross-overs with

symptoms that can be caused by one thing or another. And temps are so important

but don't tell you if you're on too much HC. But just think how much we have

learned from when we were just starting! Unbelievable.

Anyway, hope your ferritin is good so you can eliminate that as a worry. :o)

>

> Wow, thank you so much for the input. I do suspect I will have to increase in

order to do any more t3 increases. Just waiting on Val to hopefully get some

guidance as to how much to increase and where. I don't know if you are like me

but I'm always wondering with everything I do if it is stressing my adrenals.

Ever since I read here that a hot shower is bad. I really wonder if my adrenals

were ok on 20 HC before the switch to t3 because I could exercise without a

crash. I've now stopped that and I miss it. I will try to wait until I know my

ferritin before increasing HC but if my temps don't climb again tomorrow I may

go ahead. I should have a good ferritin after 4 IVs but my doc usually does 8 so

I'm wondering if I am getting less per dose than most.

>

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Guest guest

Yes I've read about other people getting six IVs but I've noticed it is usually

people with a lower starting point than me (Mine was 32 and maybe higher as I

was heavily supplementing for two weeks after my last ferritin test before the

IVs.) I don't know if there is a difference too because mine was venofer and I

think I read in one of your posts that your doctor uses a different kind. Maybe

there is less per bag for that kind? Hopefully your level is high enough to keep

raising. I'm going for another ferritin test this week to see if I am holding

it okay just so I don't have to worry about it.

Too bad there isn't some sort of home use test system that we could use to check

our own cortisol levels. Swab our cheek for some saliva and stick it in a meter

or something! Wouldn't that be great? There are so many cross-overs with

symptoms that can be caused by one thing or another. And temps are so important

but don't tell you if you're on too much HC. But just think how much we have

learned from when we were just starting! Unbelievable.

Anyway, hope your ferritin is good so you can eliminate that as a worry. :o)

>

> Wow, thank you so much for the input. I do suspect I will have to increase in

order to do any more t3 increases. Just waiting on Val to hopefully get some

guidance as to how much to increase and where. I don't know if you are like me

but I'm always wondering with everything I do if it is stressing my adrenals.

Ever since I read here that a hot shower is bad. I really wonder if my adrenals

were ok on 20 HC before the switch to t3 because I could exercise without a

crash. I've now stopped that and I miss it. I will try to wait until I know my

ferritin before increasing HC but if my temps don't climb again tomorrow I may

go ahead. I should have a good ferritin after 4 IVs but my doc usually does 8 so

I'm wondering if I am getting less per dose than most.

>

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Guest guest

I always tried to correlate the flushing with adrenaline as well, but I never

get anything else that would suspect like high pulse or the sound intolerance

and being on edge that I get other times and I call low cortisol/adrenaline

surges. When I get the flushing I am almost always feeling hot, even if my temp

isn't. Its all so confusing.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Maybe yo uare not absorbing the T3 proper;ly either.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > Artistic Grooming-

Hurricane WV

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> > > > > > > >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> > > > > > > >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

> > > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HypoPets/

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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Guest guest

I always tried to correlate the flushing with adrenaline as well, but I never

get anything else that would suspect like high pulse or the sound intolerance

and being on edge that I get other times and I call low cortisol/adrenaline

surges. When I get the flushing I am almost always feeling hot, even if my temp

isn't. Its all so confusing.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Maybe yo uare not absorbing the T3 proper;ly either.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > Artistic Grooming-

Hurricane WV

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> > > > > > > >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalThyroidHormonesADRENALS/

> > > > > > > >

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/RT3_T3/

> > > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HypoPets/

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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Guest guest

That was the same as me. The only thing that stood out about it was the feeling

of heat and my cheeks were red. I don't remember anything else right at the

time that was happening (no high heart rate - maybe higher blood pressure). At

first, I thought maybe they were sex hormone hot flashes (which I've never had)

but unless an HC increase will get rid of those too, it doesn't appear they

were. During the few weeks I had what I think were the adrenaline surges I was

having other low cortisol symptoms too but they were not noticeable when I was

having the heat flush. At least I don't remember anything anyway. So far for

me, anytime my pulse goes high, seasalt always brings it down. I can't remember

about my temps when I had these episodes. I agree, this is all very confusing

and complicated!

>

> I always tried to correlate the flushing with adrenaline as well, but I never

get anything else that would suspect like high pulse or the sound intolerance

and being on edge that I get other times and I call low cortisol/adrenaline

surges. When I get the flushing I am almost always feeling hot, even if my temp

isn't. Its all so confusing.

>

>

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Guest guest

That was the same as me. The only thing that stood out about it was the feeling

of heat and my cheeks were red. I don't remember anything else right at the

time that was happening (no high heart rate - maybe higher blood pressure). At

first, I thought maybe they were sex hormone hot flashes (which I've never had)

but unless an HC increase will get rid of those too, it doesn't appear they

were. During the few weeks I had what I think were the adrenaline surges I was

having other low cortisol symptoms too but they were not noticeable when I was

having the heat flush. At least I don't remember anything anyway. So far for

me, anytime my pulse goes high, seasalt always brings it down. I can't remember

about my temps when I had these episodes. I agree, this is all very confusing

and complicated!

>

> I always tried to correlate the flushing with adrenaline as well, but I never

get anything else that would suspect like high pulse or the sound intolerance

and being on edge that I get other times and I call low cortisol/adrenaline

surges. When I get the flushing I am almost always feeling hot, even if my temp

isn't. Its all so confusing.

>

>

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Guest guest

That was the same as me. The only thing that stood out about it was the feeling

of heat and my cheeks were red. I don't remember anything else right at the

time that was happening (no high heart rate - maybe higher blood pressure). At

first, I thought maybe they were sex hormone hot flashes (which I've never had)

but unless an HC increase will get rid of those too, it doesn't appear they

were. During the few weeks I had what I think were the adrenaline surges I was

having other low cortisol symptoms too but they were not noticeable when I was

having the heat flush. At least I don't remember anything anyway. So far for

me, anytime my pulse goes high, seasalt always brings it down. I can't remember

about my temps when I had these episodes. I agree, this is all very confusing

and complicated!

>

> I always tried to correlate the flushing with adrenaline as well, but I never

get anything else that would suspect like high pulse or the sound intolerance

and being on edge that I get other times and I call low cortisol/adrenaline

surges. When I get the flushing I am almost always feeling hot, even if my temp

isn't. Its all so confusing.

>

>

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Guest guest

Thank you. This is helpful.

> >

> > I always tried to correlate the flushing with adrenaline as well, but I

never get anything else that would suspect like high pulse or the sound

intolerance and being on edge that I get other times and I call low

cortisol/adrenaline surges. When I get the flushing I am almost always feeling

hot, even if my temp isn't. Its all so confusing.

> >

> >

>

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