Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 I just wanted to clarify something in my last post on this subject. I wrote: " I feed my two 9 lb. dogs a diet that consists primarily of meat, organs and bones from ruminants. " While I do feed marrow/knuckle bones from ruminants as recreational bones, the *consumable* bones are chicken RMBs - necks, backs, chest cavities. I grind most of it, except for necks that my Chihuahua eats whole or in parts. I would love to stop feeding chicken bones, but haven't found a reasonable substitute from a small animal -something suitable for toy dogs, or something that my grinder can handle. I'm trying to locate an affordable source of rabbit, but they're so darn expensive! BTW, when I first began seeking grass-fed meat, it was for my dogs, not me. LOL I didn't even eat beef at that point. But WAP N/T changed that. I bought pastured (no chemicals used) venison recently for the dogs. I got the cheapest cuts - neck and shoulder. One of my dogs had an acute case of gastric hemorrhagic enteritis after a week of the deer and the emergency vet thought it might be an allergic reaction to the deer (although it could've been any number of things that caused it). So I stopped feeding them the deer and started eating it myself. It's great! I ordered it from www.fallowhollow.com They also have pastured beef, veal, lamb, poultry and goat. If anyone has trouble finding local sources, you might want to check them out. I'm not a meat connoisseur, but I really thought the venison was very good. I can only imagine how the more expensive cuts might taste. Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 > Keep in mind too that wolves/dogs are scavengers and opportunists - they > will eat just about anything edible. Many folks report that their dogs will > eat berries off the bush, fruit from trees and forage in their gardens for > favorite vegetables. I think this is an important consideration to keep in mind; they are definitely opportunistic feeders. Grass would seem to be very biologically inappropriate, but I have seen many many dogs munching on grass. I also think there are two other things that are important to remember. One, dogs had access to the stomach contents of their prey as well as to the carcass. This is partially digested vegetable matter in most cases--complete with digestive enzymes. Two, not all dogs are descended from wolves. The pariah breeds (at a minimum) have a questionable lineage, and some believe that they are actually more closely related to jackals than to wolves. The feeding patterns of the two are radically different; so any consideration of optimum nutrition would need to take that into account. I have a black and white basenji (pariah breed) crossed with black lab that apparently can't deal with the richness of certain commercial dog foods. We tried feeding a couple of different premium brands (with appropriately slow transitions) and settled on Nutro Hi Energy. That was OK but not great while she was still a growing and bouncing off walls, but as soon as she hit full adulthood she began experiencing severe diarrhea. We switched to a higher fiber, lower protein, lower fat food with better but not perfect results. Finally we added canned pumpkin to the diet by preparing pumpkin stuffed " kong " toys for both of our dogs every day. That yielded a large improvement too. I have read in basenji sources that they tend to do better on less dense foods; they also tend to have more sensitive stomachs because, like cats, they groom themselves meticulously with their tongues which can sometimes cause a large intestinal load of hair. I hope to eventually try a BARF-type diet with them, but I want to do a lot more research on how pariahs naturally eat before I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 > I've been reading some of these dog threads because one day when I'm > more settled I'll get a dog of my own. I'm surprised at all the talk > of feeding dogs vegetables and whatnot though - I would have thought > dogs were carnivores. Where would wild dogs/wolves have gotten > vegetables from? I had dogs that would occasionally go out and eat some grass in the yard. I didn't get it for them and put it in their dish. It was their idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 On the lighter side of this issue though, don't you think that a dog that eats another dog's or a cat's poop would be considered an omnivore? Sorry it was just to funny to pass up. DMM > >>>I've been reading some of these dog threads because one day when I'm > more settled I'll get a dog of my own. I'm surprised at all the talk > of feeding dogs vegetables and whatnot though - I would have thought > dogs were carnivores. Where would wild dogs/wolves have gotten > vegetables from? > > ***, > > You are right - dogs are carnivores, although the pet food industry would > like us to believe they are omnivores so they can justify the high grain > kibbles they foist an uneducated public. I'm not sure where you saw mention > of vegetables, but it IS true that many diet *gurus* in the natural diet > community recommend vegetables and/or grains. Vollhard recommends a small > amount of grains, but Billinghurst (famous for his BARF diet) is moving away > from recommending grains. But he does recommend veggies. Tom Lonsdale, > another Aussie vet, recommends feeding carcasses and table scraps - that's > it. Not very practical for most pet owners, though. > > I feed my two 9 lb. dogs a diet that consists primarily of meat, organs and > bones from ruminants. Dogs are domesticated grey wolves, taxonomically canis > *lupus* familiaris. However, they seem to be more tolerant of plants/grains > in their diets than cats, who are obligate carnivores. Doesn't mean that > plants/grains are good for them, just that, for whatever reason, they tend > to tolerate them better than cats. However, a number of dogs don't tolerate > *grains* well at all. Big surprise, huh? And some don't tolerate plants. I > have a Chihuahua who has colon spasms if I feed him vegetables. I give him > mostly powdered grasses at this point, which he seems to do well with. > Sometimes a dollop of squash. But that's about it. Other dogs seem to do > fine with pulped, juiced veggies, which is the way they are generally fed. > Dogs don't have cellulase to break down the cell wall, so of course whole > plants cannot be digested - unless pre-processed by human caregivers. > > Some reasons for feeding veggies are the phytonutrients, antioxidants > alkalizing effect and fiber. I know some folks who feed whole carcasses so > their dogs are getting a diet very similar to that which they evolved on. > But this is not practical for many others. So we have to recreate the prey > to an extent. Wolves and wild dogs have been observed eating the hair of > many prey species as they consume the carcass - not always - but often. Hair > is fairly indigestible as it comes out the way it goes in. Wolf scat is > often wrapped in fur. So that's fiber that dogs' ancestors consumed, and > since I'm not feeding whole prey, I do add some fiber to my dogs meals, but > not every meal. Also, I generally feed one fermented oatmeal meal per week > and put them on a liquid fast (bone broth and apple juice) one day per week. > My rationale is to give their digestive organs - particularly the liver a > rest from processing meat - especially the amonia by-products. I also want > to give them *some* alkalizing foods as they're diet is very acidic. One of > my dogs had a urine ph of 5.5 which is too acidic. My dogs don't get nearly > as much as exercise as wolves and so don't get the alkalizing effects of > breathing in the way that their ancestors might have. > > Also, I'm hoping my dogs will live longer than wolves in the wild, so I > adjust their diet and care to their different lifestyle. I do use the dog's > pre-domestication evolutionary diet as a *foundation* for my dogs' diet, but > I do not mimic it precisely, as my dogs' lifestyle is quite different from > their ancestors'. So I customize and adjust it to their current lifestyle > and individual needs. As an example - my dogs probably have a toxin burden > (everything from formaldehyde outgassing from furniture to food contaminants > to environmental pollutants they step in and lick off their paws and more). > One of my dogs has been on commercial pet foods most of his life, was > overvaccinated and on monthly heartworm drugs, so I know that he may not be > as robustly healthy as he could be now and I add extra antioxidants to his > diet to help him deal with oxidative stress. My other dog, whom I adopted a > year and a half ago at age 10 was in terrible shape when I got her - she had > a host of health problems from two tumors, to vaginal bleeding to filthy > teeth and greasy coat to rickets! She's like a new dog now, although by no > means in *perfect* health, but a healthy diet of primarily raw animal foods > goes a long way to bringing even old sick dogs back to a good state of > health. > > I don't know why some dogs do well on a good amount of vegetables, but some > do. Mine do best on mostly meat/organs/bones so that's what I feed them. I > do believe in variety over time, so I add some ground nuts and seeds here > and there. Other things that I add a bit of in small amounts here and there > are berries, banana (my min pin is CRAZY about bananas), apple, a little > fish oil, yogurt, rose hips, oatmeal, leftovers, etc. I'd estimate that all > this put together constitutes less than 10% of their total diet. > > Keep in mind too that wolves/dogs are scavengers and opportunists - they > will eat just about anything edible. Many folks report that their dogs will > eat berries off the bush, fruit from trees and forage in their gardens for > favorite vegetables. I think it's important to listen to a dog and let them > eat what they seek, as long as it's not something dangerous/unhealthy. The > God Mother of the Natural Rearing movement, tte de Bairacli Levy, > travelled the world to study the diets of dogs that were vibrantly healthy, > much like WAP. She is an herbalist of International acclaim and she wrote > that dogs are natural herbalists and self-medicators. They will selectively > chew herbs that address their internal needs. > > > > Suze Fisher > Web Design & Development > http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ > mailto:s.fisher22@v... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 > >>>> > On the lighter side of this issue though, don't you think that a dog > that eats another dog's or a cat's poop would be considered an > omnivore? Sorry it was just to funny to pass up. > > > ***Not if the dog or cat who pooped ate a carnivorous diet! LOL > > Dogs do LOVE herbivore poop, though. Can't pass up a few good bacteria I > guess. <g> I've heard they like to both eat and roll in herbivore poop because it disguised their carnivore (omnivore?) scent. I have no idea if that's true or not, but it makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 >>>> On the lighter side of this issue though, don't you think that a dog that eats another dog's or a cat's poop would be considered an omnivore? Sorry it was just to funny to pass up. ***Not if the dog or cat who pooped ate a carnivorous diet! LOL Dogs do LOVE herbivore poop, though. Can't pass up a few good bacteria I guess. <g> I also hear about a lot of dogs going for cat poop, but considering what's in most commercial pet foods that cats eat.... On only one occassion have both of my dogs eaten a dog poop. And by the looks of it, the dog was eating an herbivorous diet as it was the most fibrous dog poop I have seen. About a month later, both of my dogs tested positive for whip or hook worms. We don't get to farms too often, so I thought about asking some local farmers who have grass-fed ruminants to throw some of that nutritious manure into my meat/organ/bone order. I can just see the possibilities of a cottage industry that would serve all the bacteria-deprived dogs out there Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 >>>I've heard they like to both eat and roll in herbivore poop because it disguised their carnivore (omnivore?) scent. I have no idea if that's true or not, but it makes sense. ***Maybe...my Chi likes to roll in raw fish and worms, but I haven't seen him try to roll in herbivore poop yet. BTW, this reminds me that herbivore poop is another natural source of fiber for wolves and wild dogs. Also a source of bacteria, and I suspect that among the many other problems such as over vaccination, artificial food, chemicals, drugs etc that are contributing to the epidemic of degenerative diseases in pets, that lack of bacteria in the diet is also a contributing factor to their ill health. I hope we're not getting too OT for this list. I can't resist any conversation about canine nutrition - it's my passion! Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 - >Where would wild dogs/wolves have gotten >vegetables from? They'd have gotten a small amount of partially-digested vegetable matter from the intestines of their prey. I'd personally avoid feeding my dog grains like the plague, but I do wonder whether a little lacto-fermented vegetable juice might not be a good thing. (Juicing would break the cell walls, and lacto-fermentation might mimic the pre-digestion. Just speculation. Some dogs do OK on raw vegetables, though, which is certainly less trouble.) - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 >>>I also think there are two other things that are important to remember. One, dogs had access to the stomach contents of their prey as well as to the carcass. ***, while I've read many sources who said they observed this, according to Mech, who has researched wolves for nearly 30 years and is probably the most respected wolf biologist today, grey wolves do not eat the stomach contents of prey. They eat the stomach itself, but leave the contents. Probably because of the acidity. When consuming the intestines, they shake them, and much of the content flys out. I asked him this in a personal email communication, because I'd read so many times that wolves eat the stomach content and that was a justification for feeding dogs grains. I'm not saying *you* are using the info to justify feeding grains - only that I've read that quite often. >>>>Two, not all dogs are descended from wolves. The pariah breeds (at a minimum) have a questionable lineage, and some believe that they are actually more closely related to jackals than to wolves. ***That would be interesting to find dogs that are not actually descended from grey wolves. Are you familiar with Wayne's work? His team did the most extensive study on DNA of wolves and dogs and found that every breed they tested (26 breeds, I think) was closely related to the wolf. In fact the (average, I think) mtDNA difference was .02%! There was more difference than that *among some dogs of the same breed.* So, some dogs were more genetically similar to grey wolves than they were to dogs within their own breed. In contrast, grey wolves differ by 4.0% to coyotes. Anyway, I'd be interested to see any sources of information about breeds that are not descended from grey wolves. Please let me know if you know of online sources for this, or even a book that discusses it. Thanks >>>I hope to eventually try a BARF-type diet with them, but I want to do a lot more research on how pariahs naturally eat before I do. ***No matter what type of diet you try, it's always important to customize it to *your dog.* So if she has a sensitive stomach, or needs more fiber, or whatever, a typical BARF diet may not work for her, but a modified one might. If you need any help in developing one, or would like a list of resources on where to research homemade (BARF and other diets) let me know. There are also commercial *boutique* raw diets - and some of them are pretty good. But there's nothing better than a customized homemade diet prepared with love, IMHO Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 >From: " alecwood " <me@...> >I had dogs that would occasionally go out and eat some grass in the >yard. I didn't get it for them and put it in their dish. It was their >idea. Don't they do that to induce vomiting? Or is that just a myth? _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:27:23 -0500, you wrote: >- > >>Where would wild dogs/wolves have gotten >>vegetables from? > >They'd have gotten a small amount of partially-digested vegetable matter >from the intestines of their prey. I'd personally avoid feeding my dog >grains like the plague, but I do wonder whether a little lacto-fermented >vegetable juice might not be a good thing. (Juicing would break the cell >walls, and lacto-fermentation might mimic the pre-digestion. Just >speculation. Some dogs do OK on raw vegetables, though, which is certainly >less trouble.) > My four dachshunds love sauerkraut. Walking through apple orchards, two of them have eaten the fallen fruit, tending to go towards the overripe ones, same with pears.. The only grains they get are scraps of bread and corn or potato chip I might toss to them. I just don't find the grain argument compelling at all. I grind whatever vegetables they get from salad fixings to broccoli, squash, pumpkin anything I eat or is on sale at the market :-) Then I mix it with ground meat, usually chicken or turkey that I often grind myself. The ratio is roughly 60% meat 40% veggie slop. This is one meal of the day, the other is a whole turkey neck or chicken back . I go with the theory of feeding what they might be able to kill on their own, thus, rarely do they get beef or pork and similar sized animals. No science with that, just my own reasoning. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 Our female bull/ English mastiff cross almost feeds herself in the summer. She eats blueberries, blackberries and cranberries as I'm picking. Had to train her no with the strawberries as we planted, are fewer and she does get the bruised ones. Have seen her eat mice and snakes. Goes under the snow and grass with her nose rooting and pushing on their trail. Bad thing is she hasn't learned about porcupines yet and that gets expensive with vet bills. Eats grass whenever she can find it green. She also greets by jumping on your shoulders and trying to lick. Was told thats a wolf instinct. Wanita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 In Seattle you can get pasture fed longhorn beef from Mondo's, a wholesale meat distributor (they ship too), for about $2.00 - $2.25 a lb, cut and wrapped. I buy it by the side, though I think we are going to start getting a whole at the rate we are going. You can tell them how to cut it: I'm getting more 'meaty bones' this time (they clean the bones really well otherwise). We do lots of steak! And it is really, really yummy. The Omega-3 profile is supposed to be similar to salmon, it's grown on small farms mostly, is incredibly tender (more so than most beef). The folks I've given samples too have gotten rather addicted. The longhorns don't like grain, which causes the farmers problems because they can't fatten them up at the feedlots, so they get a low USDA grade. And they are naturally hardy so don't get much 'intervention' from the farmers. I used to get venison, but then I tried longhorn and no one here will eat anything else now. It's available in most parts of the country if you look. Mondo's doesn't handle the organs, but if you deal more directly with the farmer you can probably get most everything, which I'm sure the dogs (and some humans) would love. I sure miss sweetbreads. BTW I think dogs have been living with humans about 10,000 years, eating leftovers. Rats have adapted to humans so well that we get the same diseases (hence the use of rats for drug testing), and I'd bet dog digestion has adapted pretty much for human leftovers too. Of course, human leftovers 10,000 years ago didn't have much grain in them! -- Heidi >BTW, when I first began seeking grass-fed meat, it was for my dogs, not me. >LOL I didn't even eat beef at that point. But WAP N/T changed that. I bought >pastured (no chemicals used) venison recently for the dogs. I got the >cheapest cuts - neck and shoulder. One of my dogs had an acute case of >gastric hemorrhagic enteritis after a week of the deer and the emergency vet >thought it might be an allergic reaction to the deer (although it could've >been any number of things that caused it). So I stopped feeding them the >deer and started eating it myself. It's great! I ordered it from >www.fallowhollow.com They also have pastured beef, veal, lamb, poultry and >goat. If anyone has trouble finding local sources, you might want to check >them out. I'm not a meat connoisseur, but I really thought the venison was >very good. I can only imagine how the more expensive cuts might taste. > >Suze Fisher >Web Design & Development ><http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/>http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vz\ e3shjg/ >mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 >> I go with the theory of feeding what they might be able to kill on their own, thus, rarely do they get beef or pork and similar sized animals. No science with that, just my own reasoning. << What about mice/rats? Can't you buy frozen mice to feed to snakes? I don't have a dog but I want one, so I'm following this thread with interest! ~ Carma ~ To be perpetually talking sense runs out the mind, as perpetually ploughing and taking crops runs out the land. The mind must be manured, and nonsense is very good for the purpose. ~ Boswell Carma's Corner: http://www.users.qwest.net/~carmapaden/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 On Thu, 28 Mar 2002 16:44:36 -0700, you wrote: >>> I go with the theory of feeding what they might be able to kill on >their own, thus, rarely do they get beef or pork and similar sized >animals. No science with that, just my own reasoning. << > >What about mice/rats? Can't you buy frozen mice to feed to snakes? I >don't have a dog but I want one, so I'm following this thread with >interest! Being of ish decent, I won't pay the freight at the local pet shops. But I have been thinking about raising rabbits, rats or mice. I just don't know how I would fit taking care of them with my schedule. Chickens hadn't occurred t me until this list, but I have a natural chicken ranch, Petaluma Poultry, nearby that raises free range, antibiotic and hormone free chickens and the price is right. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 At 04:44 PM 3/28/2002 -0700, you wrote: >What about mice/rats? Can't you buy frozen mice to feed to snakes? Mice and rats are best fed live to snakes. Not sure a snake would be interested in a long-dead one. Your local pet shop will have the mice for sale. -=mark=- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 At 04:44 PM 3/28/02 -0700, you wrote: >What about mice/rats? Can't you buy frozen mice to feed to snakes? I >don't have a dog but I want one, so I'm following this thread with >interest! > >~ Carma ~ All snakes we've had have been fed live mice from the pet store. DH said the only way you can feed frozen mice is to thaw beforehand so the snake's jacobson organ will detect the scent and pheromones. Our dog has gotten some wood rats. Some she eats and others she just kills. At least she's not like the cat who likes to leave uneaten or half eaten gifts on the doorstep usually after she hasn't been fed for her umpteenth demand of the day. What a difference in attitude between cats and dogs. Cats say more my slave and dogs say thank you so much....wag wag :-) Wanita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 >>>>but I do wonder whether a little lacto-fermented vegetable juice might not be a good thing. (Juicing would break the cell walls, and lacto-fermentation might mimic the pre-digestion. ***Believe it or not, this is the very reason I purchased NT in the first place - for the fermented vegetable recipes for_my_dogs! Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 > >>>>but I do wonder whether a little lacto-fermented vegetable juice might > not be a good thing. (Juicing would break the cell walls, and > lacto-fermentation might mimic the pre-digestion. > > ***Believe it or not, this is the very reason I purchased NT in the first > place - for the fermented vegetable recipes for_my_dogs! > > > > > Suze Fisher > Web Design & Development > http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ > mailto:s.fisher22@v... >>>>>>>>Do they eat it? I purchased NT for lacto fermented vegetables and beverages for myself and family. I must say the lacto-fermented cabbage I made tastes great and gets better with age. My chickens,pigs and yearling bull Brown Swiss calf all consume yogurt and whey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 >>>> This is one meal of the day, the other is a whole turkey neck or chicken back . I go with the theory of feeding what they might be able to kill on their own, thus, rarely do they get beef or pork and similar sized animals. No science with that, just my own reasoning. ***Mike, Here's some food for thought... the species evolved primarily on large ungulates. Large ungulates provide the lipid and amino acid profile of the diet that sustained and nourished dogs (prior to domestication) over a period of millions of years. My feeling is that the further away from the natural diet that you get, the more problems you may encounter. I've seen it happen with a number of folks who rely mainly on poultry, which has an excessive amount of LA (omega 6) for example. I lost count of how many owners reported that their dogs were itchy on diets based on chicken. Then someone would recommend a) removing or reducing chicken (which is what *I* usually recommend) or adding fish oil to balance out the EFAs (which should help regulate inflammation and symptoms of atopy). And sure enough, they'd start feeding fish and flax oils to balance out the high omega 6 content or they'd stop feeding chicken, and more often than not, the dog would stop itching. Another example, a natural rearing breeder who's been feeding raw for over 15 years reports that she had terrible repro problems on a chicken based diet. When she switched her dogs/bitches over to a red meat/bone/organ based diet, the repro problems disappeared. These are anecdotal accounts, but even from a biological/biochemical perspective, modern domestic poultry is far removed from anything in the dog's evolutionary diet. In fact modern chicken doesn't resemble *any* wild creature, and certainly none that have been staples of wolves/dogs diets. I *think* chicken has only been in this country for about a hundred years or so, but am not sure of the exact date. I've done some research on this, and have found that the nutrient profile and particularly the lipid profile is far different than that of the grey wolf's primary prey, with way too much Linoleic acid (omega 6) in poultry fat (RMBS have a high fat content). Battery-raised chickens have the worst lipid profile, in addition to the other health drawbacks, such as antibiotics. Also, chicken is much lower in carnitine - a nutrient essential to heart health - than are lamb or beef and some other *red* meats. As I mentioned, dogs evolved on a diet that consisted of primarily large ungulates (deer, elk, moose, bison, etc) with a smaller portion of hare and beaver. Wild fowl, by all accounts, is only an occasional meal. Also worth noting, Billinghurst is dismayed that a number of folks are relying so heavily on chicken and poultry. He emphasizes *variety.* It was easy to interpret his first book to mean that we should feed lots of chicken, and many of us interpreted it that way. But he's since said he didn't mean to emphasize it and that variety is extremely important. Just something to cosider when developing a more *natural* diet for dogs I think the main attraction in feeding poultry is that it's easy to get and cheaper than other meats/bones. Which is why a lot of folks end up feeding lots of poultry. Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 > >>>> This is one meal of the day, the other is a whole turkey neck or > chicken back . I > go with the theory of feeding what they might be able to kill on their > own, thus, rarely do they get beef or pork and similar sized animals. > No science with that, just my own reasoning. > > > ***Mike, > >>>>>>>>>>>>snip<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > In fact modern chicken doesn't resemble *any* wild creature, and certainly > none that have been staples of wolves/dogs diets. > > Suze Fisher > Web Design & Development > http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ > mailto:s.fisher22@v... Have you seen the modern leghorns Tyson's sell? They can't even walk properly. A 20 inch high fence will detain them. I guess they DON'T resemble anything wild not phenotypically nor genotypically. The chickens we have can fly and I have to build fences 6 feet tall to keep them out of certain areas of the yard. Go tour Tyson's barn sometime. You'd be amazed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 >>>>BTW I think dogs have been living with humans about 10,000 years, eating leftovers. ***Actually, I think the archeological evidence is pointing closer to 100,000 years. It's really a range of time more so than a pinpoint on a timeline....since they started out as wolves and may have cohabited with humans while their remains appear to be 'wolf' and not 'dog.' I've heard that canid geneticist Wayne agrees with 100,000 figure. Yet and still, dogs and grey wolves are nearly identical genetically despite obvious morphological differences. >>>>Rats have adapted to humans so well that we get the same diseases (hence the use of rats for drug testing), and I'd bet dog digestion has adapted pretty much for human leftovers too. ***I don't think so. I've seen no evidence of it. In fact, I believe dogs' and wolves' digestive tracts are the same from teeth all the way to anus, aside from size and power of jaws. They have no salivary amylase, for example. We DO have salivary amylase, which is logical since we are omnivores, not carnivores. I'm no geneticist, but I think it takes a lot more than 10,000 or even 100,000 to change the digestive system both physiologically and biochemically to any notable degree. If the digestive system could adapt to a new diet in 10,000 years then there wouldn't be any Celiac disease today among humans and we wouldn't have to soak or ferment grains or take supplementary phytase because we would've developed enzymes to digest phytic acid. Not to say it's not happening as we speak since evolution is a dynamic process, but I think humans have certainly not adapted to high grain diets any more than dogs have adapted to human leftovers. Not that they can't *survive* on human garbage and/or leftovers, but I differentiate between mere *survival* and *optimal health.* My goal for my dogs is the latter Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 >>>>>>>>Do they eat it? I purchased NT for lacto fermented vegetables and beverages for myself and family. I must say the lacto-fermented cabbage I made tastes great and gets better with age. My chickens,pigs and yearling bull Brown Swiss calf all consume yogurt and whey. ***I haven't tried any of the veggie recipes yet! Ok, so I'm slow getting going. What happened is, I tried the fermented oatmeal recipe and that went over well with them - they both loved it. So I just kept doing that. But I do want to try the ginger carrots - both for the dogs and for me. I actually want to cut out the one grain meal per week once I figure out how to properly ferment something green, like grass. I may have to use a little grain or something starchy for a substrate, though. But I'm working on finding a green tripe source from pastured ruminants - that should take care of the bacteria, and maybe some of the grass that I think would be good for them. Even though wolves may not eat the stomach content, I've read countless dog owners claim that their dogs go wild for green tripe - contents and all. So I'll give that a go. Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 >>>>Have you seen the modern leghorns Tyson's sell? They can't even walk properly. A 20 inch high fence will detain them. I guess they DON'T resemble anything wild not phenotypically nor genotypically. ***Same with turkeys! I had a long conversation with a local turkey farmer last summer and he told me that turkeys have been bred to have massive breasts, but as a consequence they have a myriad of leg problems since their legs are not designed to carry such a load. He also told me that there's only ONE turkey breeder (in this country, I think) and that everyone gets their turkeys from this one source (actually, he said the same source owns two breeding facilities under two different names, I believe). So, two facilities, one parent company. We discussed some of the differences between domestic and wild turkeys as well, but I don't remember the details. I only remember that the differences were vast. Hey, wild turkeys can fly - I wonder if a typical domestic turkey could even hop. Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 >Also worth noting, Billinghurst is dismayed that a number of folks are >relying so heavily on chicken and poultry. He emphasizes *variety.* It was >easy to interpret his first book to mean that we should feed lots of >chicken, and many of us interpreted it that way. But he's since said he >didn't mean to emphasize it and that variety is extremely important. Turkey makes up most of their meat diet, chicken probably about 6-8 weeks a year because turkey necks are easier to portion out to my small dogs. They aren't strong enough to eat even turkey wings, a little used bone of there ever was one, large animal bone just risks tooth breakage with my determined chewers. I have no problem with believing a wolf size dog can deal with an elk, but the only way a dachshund ever would is when the pack gangs up on such a beast and the poor fellows dies from laughing at the idea that such small creatures could do him harm. There was somebody on a PBS Documentary that concluded that wild mice made up a large portion of the wolves diet, he even lived on them himself. Dachshund the size of mine were called 'rabbit dogs' since they were trained to go into burrows to get the rabbit, I am certain they ate a few of them, the larger size, up to 35 pound or so went underground to hunt badgers, but none ever went to big animals. Back to an earlier point about bones, animals that they could bring down would presumably have bones that could be broken (chewed) but the predator. So, while I may not offer as wide a variety as some, I have healthy, itch free, non breeding dogs, who may someday get a steady diet of rabbit or mice if dad can find a reasonably priced source. Thanks for your thoughts Mike PS, as you probably know, there is a growing movement away from a lot of Dr B's thoughts, not only including grains, which he has changed his mind about, but how much vegetables should be in the diet. There are now people with a couple of years worth of meat only diet and they claim their dogs are doing just fine. What can you say??? shrug! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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