Re: Should I try T3?

[Guest guest]

So wouldn't someone taking oral hormone have

> totally skewed Free T3 results...that could flucuate wildly

depending on when

> they took their armour...and what was going on as far as the body

converting

> for use? Does this make any sense? I guess I'm wondering if

there really is

> any good way to know your optimal dose other than to get a little

hyper and

> then drop down the dose.

> Sometimes I get so confused.

> Cindi

____________

Lots of things interfere with free T3 results. Low cortisol will

cause T3 to go up very high. The majority of thyroid hormone is

carried in the blood bound to proteins and red blood cells. If you

lack sufficient protein and specific amino acids, then there is not

sufficient protein to bind to thryoid. It is pretty easy for a

hypothyroid person to be low in protien as the condition messes up

their ability to take up protein. Also, if you are anemic, then you

will have trouble with thryoid and free thyroid levels can be

higher. Anemia also prevents cells from getting enough oxygen, which

will slow the energy process in the body and slow the use of

thyroid. Taking your pill an hour or two before the test is going to

make it higher than if you had the test done 7 hours after your

pill. There are auto-immune conditions in which the cell is

resistant to letting thyroid in and it has been written by some that

they need higher blood levels of thyroid. Also, people can have

things wrong with the energy processes inside the cell that make it

hard for it to use T3 or convert T4. T3 is not as tightly bound to

protein in the blood as T4 is and things like PH and various

medications can affect how well it stays attached. Antihistamines

and Aspirine can lower blood levels of Thyroid hormones by driving

it into tissues.

Anyway, I think that is why doctors back before around 1975 were

often skepticle of the value of tests. For some reason, today, we

think tests are rock solid pictures of what is really happening.

But, it is not true. It is very complicated.

I have been doing reading on thryoid treatment before the TSH test

and found in old papers that the common way to adjust the dose was

to in fact go too high and then back down. Back then when Armour was

the main medicine, they were not concerned about people being a

little high and found that many people needed to be a little on the

high end to feel good. It has been written in older texts about well

adjusted patients being just a little hyper just after their pill

and then it stabilizes as the hours pass. One doctor wrote that many

patients liked the little hyper rush after their medicine after they

had been on thryoid replacement for some time.

Tish

[Guest guest]

> T4 only stores up if you are taking more than you are using up by

> converting it to T3 for energy. If your dose is below what you

need

> or exactly what you need then you cannot store up T4 because you

> will be using it up to make T3 as fast as you are taking it.

>>>>>> I don't think I am explaining this too well..

>

> Tish

This is a great explanation, and makes perfect sense to me. Thanks

much for your help! It even explains why I notice my heart beating a

couple hours after my dose for a very few minutes (probably the

extra T3)

in MA

[Guest guest]

>

> Lots of things interfere with free T3 results. Low cortisol will

> cause T3 to go up very high. It has been written in older texts

about well

> adjusted patients being just a little hyper just after their pill

> and then it stabilizes as the hours pass. One doctor wrote that

many

> patients liked the little hyper rush after their medicine after

they

> had been on thryoid replacement for some time.

>

> Tish

This is so funny! I bet a lot of hypos like a little rush after

being so slow for years. I know I do! I just had blood drawn

today. I will be very curious to find out if my T3 went down over

the past couple of weeks since I think my cortisol is better. How

does the low cortisol make the T3 go up?

in MA

[Guest guest]

..

>

> I have been doing reading on thryoid treatment before the TSH test

> and found in old papers that the common way to adjust the dose was

> to in fact go too high and then back down. It has been written in

older texts about well

> adjusted patients being just a little hyper just after their pill

> and then it stabilizes as the hours pass. > Tish

Just curious, where can you read about the older ways of adjusting

thyroid hormone?

in MA

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/16/2004 7:45:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

saltillo@... writes:

>

>

> An excellent place to look is at http://www.thyroidhistory.net

wow...i went to this site..and ended up spending an hour there. wow.

cindi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/16/2004 7:45:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

saltillo@... writes:

>

>

> An excellent place to look is at http://www.thyroidhistory.net

wow...i went to this site..and ended up spending an hour there. wow.

cindi

[Guest guest]

Just curious, where can you read about the older ways of adjusting

> thyroid hormone?

>

> in MA

__________________

An excellent place to look is at http://www.thyroidhistory.net. A

good keyword search (suggested to me by the owner) that will get you

lots of material is " TSH " It brings up a lot of old papers written

around the time this test was gaining interest and people were

discussing thyroid treatment vs. test results. Also, you can find

titles of older books by searching the National Library of Medicine

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/libserv.html, writing down the information

and then going to your local library and seeing if you can get it on

interlibrary loan.

If you live near a university research medical school, life is much

easier.

Tish

[Guest guest]

And what did they do, lets say, 75 years ago before $inthroid. All

they had to prescribe was Armour. They couldn't add some cytomel or

T4. hmmm interesting to think what they did.

Louise

> >I guess I'm wondering if there really is any good way to know your

> >optimal dose other than to get a little hyper and then drop down

the

> dose.

>

> Excellent question. I always refer back to before the thyroid labs

> were developed. Docs treated patients solely on symptoms.

So....when

> the amount I am on has taken away all crashes, all aches, and when

I

> have great stamina and energy, it's an optimal dose for me. I also

> used to measure it by stools, but since I am on daily iron, can't

do

> that--the iron makes them harder. Additionally, I used to measure

it

> by my hair, but being meno has increased some of my hair loss. Alas.

>

> Also.....even at what I think is my optimal dose, I have raised it

by

> 1/4 grain.....and so far, no extra palps and I still feel great. To

> my eyes, as long as you raise in small doses, you can do it fairly

> safely....I am always paying attention to my palps since I know my

> Ferritin is where it should be!

>

> Janie

[Guest guest]

,

I am interested in how you did this. Did you keep increasing your dose until

your basal temp came up? I am now on 3 1/2 grains plus 30mg hydrocortisone and

I still can't get my basal above 97.4

When I first wake up in the morning I am actually sweating, in fact soaking wet

some mornings. When I take my temp I am sure that it is going to be high but

it is not, so I am wondering whether this sweating is my body's attempt to boost

my temp.

Lynda (in the UK)

Re: Re: Should I try T3?

Another great way to adjust your dosage is by basal temps. THAT is how I

have gotten feeling as good as I am now feeling after so many years of being

hypo and very sick.

Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

[Guest guest]

Waking up sweating is common with 2 things, adjusting meds and menopause! I

think the female hormones are probably more responsible for this. I do find

I have to sleep in a VERY cool room, but then I have had no real estrogen

for 5 years and then Premarin was what I took for 17 years before that. 97.4

isn;t a real bad basal temp... mine used to be 95, and sometimes would dip

to 94.5.. near dead I was! LOL How long since your last increase? Any hyper

signs once dosage is stabilized? I have also found while adjusting my

dosages, I did have some hyper signs, like pounding heart when I first laid

down to go to sleep for about 4-7 days after a new dosage. Once on it for

over a week they went away. When adjusting with Armour, make sure you give

the T4 a chance to operate. Do not go up too quickly or you may have

problems with uncontrollable irate behavior! That is my signal to back

down... Edginess and easily irritable usually signify too much thyroid for

me. My basal temp is STILL not what I think it should be, it is around 97.8,

but was at 97.3 till I started taking my last Armour at bedtime. That is

something more you could try.

Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

[Guest guest]

mine used to be 95 too before I started taking hydrocortisone, so I agree that

97.4 isn't too bad but it's not where it should be.

Yes, menopause is certainly mixed up with all the other symptoms, some of which

overlap so it's not easy to differentiate sometimes. I changed to a different

brand of progesterone cream last week and can definitely tell the difference.

It is a coincidence that you should mention taking a little extra armour at

night, I did that just last night. I have tried taking half a grain at night

before but that was part of my normal dose (taking half a grain less in the

afternoon and adding it at night)

This time I took half a grain at bedtime in addition to the 3 1/2 grains during

the day. I know I am not going to see a difference immediately so I will keep

it there for a month and see what happens.

I have a problem coping with any small differences in the outside temperature.

If the temp moves up a couple of degrees I am hot all the time, if it moves down

a couple of degrees I am freezing. I think Dr Rind lists this as an adrenal

problem. I know it could also be meno but I have hot flashes on top of this so

who knows!

The only sign I get when I adjust my armour dose is that I have a couple of days

when I feel very weepy and then it passes. Sometimes I feel a very strong

heartbeat but pulse is only around 78

Lynda (in the UK)

Re: Re: Should I try T3?

Waking up sweating is common with 2 things, adjusting meds and menopause! I

think the female hormones are probably more responsible for this. I do find

I have to sleep in a VERY cool room, but then I have had no real estrogen

for 5 years and then Premarin was what I took for 17 years before that. 97.4

isn;t a real bad basal temp... mine used to be 95, and sometimes would dip

to 94.5.. near dead I was! LOL How long since your last increase? Any hyper

signs once dosage is stabilized?

[Guest guest]

Perhaps one of my weirdest symptoms has been heat intolerance ever since I

went hypo. When in my teens I am sure I was hyper mostly with some hypo

swings, but then I had no problems with heat at all. When I turned 19 was

the first serious hypo symptoms I had and my heat intolerance began then and

has become worse over the years. I have never felt cold! I also lose hair

but with every change in dosage, then it levels out. My hair is growing

better right now than it has in 25 years. In fact it is longer now than I

have been able to get it in 30 years! Usually it gets to my shoulders then

gets so brittle & dry it refuses to grow any more and looks so terrible I

have had it cut. Now it is past my shoulders and still looks healthy. I am

about at a point where I am scaring myself with adding MORE thyroid! LOL I

think I better have some blood work done to find out where I stand as I

haven;t had any in the last year and I have done some major changes in that

time. My body tells me I am better than I have been in years so I am not too

afraid what the blood will tell me, but my system is so weird from the

chemical poisoning I am just curious to say the least.

Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

[Guest guest]

I was hyper in my late 40's, then things settled down for a couple of years.

My first hypo symptoms were insomnia, nausea, weight gain and general aches &

pains. Then I went through about 6 months of absolute hell with heat

intolerance. In the middle of winter I would strip and sit right in front of a

fan for about half an hour just to cool down to a tolerable degree but even then

I would just weat a T shirt while dh was wearing a long sleeved shirt and a

sweater. Thankfully, it's not as bad as that now but I find that if the

weather is changeable I have (some of) my clothes off and on all day!

There is not so much of my hair in the shower drain now and it is looking a lot

shinier. Also my arms became completely hairless but now if I hold my arm up

to the light I can see tiny, whispy hairs growing back again. I am sure I'm on

the right track with the armour, just need to get to my optimal dose.

Lynda (in the UK)

Re: Re: Should I try T3?

Perhaps one of my weirdest symptoms has been heat intolerance ever since I

went hypo. When in my teens I am sure I was hyper mostly with some hypo

swings, but then I had no problems with heat at all. When I turned 19 was

the first serious hypo symptoms I had and my heat intolerance began then and

has become worse over the years. I have never felt cold!

[Guest guest]

Well, since they don't measure the T1, T2, and so on, all we've got is the

T3 and T4. Since it is the T4 that converts to T3, then this is where the

buck stops, though unbeknowst to us, T3 is going to convert to the lower

atoms of iodine usage in different or certain parts of the body. This is

where molecular science comes into play, and we all know that we are better

molecular scientists than most of our doctors, right? Hehe! You're right,

for sure! The Frees only show what is available, but of course, there is

the RT3, which shows what is running around out there that didn't get used

either, as well as the other tests which show their best guess as to what's

bound up and either will be used or won't ever be used. So don't ask me why

there is this zoo of doctors who absolutely will NOT back down as to the TSH

being the main guideline for all this. It doesn't make sense does it? The

tests do always tell me SOMETHING though. Whether that higher Free T3 I've

got means that the antibodies said " Fooled You Again, Silly! " , or whether it

means that I'm " backing up " a lot of T3 that the receptors aren't accepting

into the cells, or what, at least it does give me a good stopping point. If

I was feeling really well with a gigantic T3 that was ridiculously above the

" normal " , whatever that is, then I would have to wonder what it was that was

making my body so resistant to absorbing at least some of that. It's a

Catch 22 situtation. I don't go totally by the tests, but I also won't go

without them. I think that I would like to know whether I even MIGHT be

going to have a heart attack a little ahead of time, so that I might avoid

it altogether, rather than looking at it AFTER the fact, or pushing up

daisies somewhere in my local cemetery. That's just me, though.

Re: Re: Should I try T3?

> In a message dated 8/16/2004 2:53:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> saltillo@... writes:

>

> > don't think I am explaining this too well..

> >

>

> Actually, I think you did it pretty well. And here's a question for you.

> The whole Free T3 labs confuse me anyway. My Free T3 is way over the

top...over

> 650...but keeping in mind that some labs say 619 is the upper end. But

> here's my question. That lab supposedly measures what is AVAILABLE in the

blood to

> be used...but what about what is BEING used. Some of it would have had to

be

> drawn into the tissues for you. So wouldn't someone taking oral hormone

have

> totally skewed Free T3 results...that could flucuate wildly depending on

when

> they took their armour...and what was going on as far as the body

converting

> for use? Does this make any sense? I guess I'm wondering if there really

is

> any good way to know your optimal dose other than to get a little hyper

and

> then drop down the dose.

> Sometimes I get so confused.

> Cindi

[Guest guest]

3 1/2 grains plus 30mg hydrocortisone and I still can't get my basal

above 97.4

> When I first wake up in the morning I am actually sweating,

________________

This still sounds like adrenal. The demand for adrenal hormones in

the morning is the highest. The lowest levels of cortisol occur at

about 2:00 in the morning. So, the adrenals have to pump out a lot

in a short period in the morning to get you up to speed. In adrenal

fatigue, they often cannot manage the task.

Dr. Peatfield has written that it can take up to a year after

beginning thyroid treatment for body temps to come up. The body has

adapted to low thyroid by slowing the metabolism and it takes time

for it to change. Also, if adrenal hormones are low, temps will drop

like a rock. Mine would go down to 96.4 when I was adrenally

stressed. All I had to do was walk a few blocks and it plummeted in

the old days when I first started thyroid. You can't use thyroid for

heat when adrenal is too low, so you really cool off. Activities

cause a sharp rise in adrenal output in normal people. Fatigued

adrenals cannot suddenly put out more for heigher demands. Normal

adrenals actually store large amounts of hormone for these short

bursts of demand. In adrenal fatigue, stores are lost and the

adrenals are basically bankrupt. They only can put out hormone as

soon as they are able to make a small amount.

I have this problem of not being able to get adrenal hormones up

high enough in the mornings and I will get the shakes and usually

feel not as well early in the day. My way of dealing with it is to

take my biggest dose of IsoCort in the morning. Right now I will

take 7-1/2 mg in the morning and my next dose is only 5 mg, and my

last dose is just 2-1/2 mg. I had read in a medical text on the

adrenals that if you take the majority of your adrenal hormones in

the morning it is least suppressive to your own adrenals and much

easier to get off them later and makes them less dependent on pills

overall. It probably has to do with the heightened demand for

cortisol in the morning.

Tish

[Guest guest]

I have heard all about basal temperatures since I was dxed. Nothing brought my

temperature up till my ferritin was treated and my estrogen

Re: Re: Should I try T3?

Another great way to adjust your dosage is by basal temps. THAT is how I

have gotten feeling as good as I am now feeling after so many years of being

hypo and very sick.

Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

[Guest guest]

I agree with you about the ferritin but estrogen makes me much, much worse. I

am very estrogen dominant and have to use lots of progesterone cream to

counteract it. I'm definitely better on this new pc, I think the last one I

was using was stale as it seemed gritty. It was cheap but I chose it because I

have to spend a fortune each month on supplements and was trying to get the best

value. Now I know that I need to buy a good brand otherwise it's false

economy.

Lynda (in the UK)

Re: Re: Should I try T3?

I have heard all about basal temperatures since I was dxed. Nothing brought my

temperature up till my ferritin was treated and my estrogen

[Guest guest]

I know that the heart must have T4, though how much, I don't know. Is it

the liver or pancreas, which one up at the top of the body, that requires

some T4? LOL, placed it by which region of the body, but can't remember

which organ! Also, has this question come up here or anywhere else

before?----Does the hypothalamus get the signal from the body that enough T4

is being put in, as well as T3, or does it just get the signal that the body

cells are " happy " or " sad " , translated, not getting enough hormone, period?

I'm asking this because it carries the signals back to the pituitary to make

more hormone. Since the main hormone made by the thyroid is T4 to T3, 4:1

ratio, is it receiving the signal to make more T4, or is receiving the

signal that what? The body's chemistry isn't right? Exactly what is this

signal that the hypothalamus IS sending to the pituitary, exactly? We know

that the heart must have T4, along with a couple of other systems, but why

is it that some authorities continually say that ALL T4 is converted to T3,

when we know that these other systems do require some T4? How complex ARE

those signals sent through the hypothalamus, and exactly what is the

pituitary asking for? Both hormones, or just one? If it is the T4, how low

can we really afford to go on continually keeping our T4 that low, even with

a higher T3?

Re: Should I try T3?

>

> As I doubt I do any T4 to T3 conversion, is

> > there any reason I should continue taking T4 at all? Maybe go to

> straight T3

> > therapy? > >

> It seems to me that although the T3 is most usable on the cellular

> level, there must be some reason that the body makes T4, SOME OF

> WHICH converts to T3....I don't know all of the particulars, but the

> T4 is also needed somewhere along the line.

[Guest guest]

Tish,

would this be the reason why I am so exhausted and hot at the least bit physical

exertion?

In terms of housework I can do only the bare minimum. On a daily basis this

means making my bed and cleaning the bathroom. The other rooms I have to do in

rotation, one room per week. After dusting and taking the vaccuum cleaner over

the carpet I am absolutely exhausted and am too hot for about an hour

afterwards. When I do cool down I then get too cold and shaky.

I have been taking h/c since November at 20mg a day, I increased to 30mg a day

about a month ago.

Lynda (in the UK)

Re: Should I try T3?

This still sounds like adrenal. The demand for adrenal hormones in

the morning is the highest. The lowest levels of cortisol occur at

about 2:00 in the morning. So, the adrenals have to pump out a lot

in a short period in the morning to get you up to speed. In adrenal

fatigue, they often cannot manage the task.

[Guest guest]

Everything you're describing here Lynda, is exactly the way it is with me,

as far as the sweats, temp changes, etc., etc. It's very frustrating, to

say the least, to feel like a dead person one minute and then like " hot

mama " the next. Makes me very irritable. Which progesterone cream did you

change to, that works better, and where did you get it?

Re: Re: Should I try T3?

> mine used to be 95 too before I started taking hydrocortisone, so I agree

that 97.4 isn't too bad but it's not where it should be.

> Yes, menopause is certainly mixed up with all the other symptoms, some of

which overlap so it's not easy to differentiate sometimes. I changed to a

different brand of progesterone cream last week and can definitely tell the

difference.

> It is a coincidence that you should mention taking a little extra armour

at night, I did that just last night. I have tried taking half a grain at

night before but that was part of my normal dose (taking half a grain less

in the afternoon and adding it at night)

> This time I took half a grain at bedtime in addition to the 3 1/2 grains

during the day. I know I am not going to see a difference immediately so I

will keep it there for a month and see what happens.

> I have a problem coping with any small differences in the outside

temperature. If the temp moves up a couple of degrees I am hot all the

time, if it moves down a couple of degrees I am freezing. I think Dr Rind

lists this as an adrenal problem. I know it could also be meno but I have

hot flashes on top of this so who knows!

> The only sign I get when I adjust my armour dose is that I have a couple

of days when I feel very weepy and then it passes. Sometimes I feel a very

strong heartbeat but pulse is only around 78

> Lynda (in the UK)

[Guest guest]

http://www.youngagain.com/progesterone.html

I forgot to mention that since I have been using this one I have been peeing all

day. Lost 4 1/2 pounds since Friday!!

Lynda (in the UK)

Re: Re: Should I try T3?

Everything you're describing here Lynda, is exactly the way it is with me,

as far as the sweats, temp changes, etc., etc. It's very frustrating, to

say the least, to feel like a dead person one minute and then like " hot

mama " the next. Makes me very irritable. Which progesterone cream did you

change to, that works better, and where did you get it?

[Guest guest]

> Tish,

> would this be the reason why I am so exhausted and hot at the

least bit physical exertion?

> In terms of housework I can do only the bare minimum.

_______________

I think so because this is what happened to me when I first started

thryoid and was taking 10 mg hydrocortisone. Just walking around the

outside of the house exhausted me. I would overheat and feel awful

if I did too much. Too much was just about everything except the

dishes. Then I would be shaky soon after. Sometimes the shakes would

still be around the next morning. I would also be weak - no muscle

strength. Low cortisol causes muscles to waste protein and causes

mineral balance to be altered (mostly calcium). This changes nerve

and muscle response, making things kind of jerky and uncoordinated.

Tish

[Guest guest]

Re: Should I try T3?

> Tish,

> would this be the reason why I am so exhausted and hot at the

least bit physical exertion?

> In terms of housework I can do only the bare minimum.

_______________

I think so because this is what happened to me when I first started

thryoid and was taking 10 mg hydrocortisone. Just walking around the

outside of the house exhausted me. I would overheat and feel awful

if I did too much. Too much was just about everything except the

dishes.

[Guest guest]

my legs start jumping up and down quite uncontrollably. > Lynda

(in the UK)

___________________

I don't think your doctor is right here since I get this only when I

have overdone my adrenals or when I got my thyroid too high a while

ago (5 grains for me). Calcium/sodium balance plays a big role in

controlling nerve function. Calcium must cross cell boundaries in

order for muscle to contract properly. When adrenal is low and

thyroid builds up in the blood, sodium and potassium are lost

disturbing mineral balance and there develops problems in energy

production in the muscle. Muscle and nerve function becomes

inefficient, weak, and rough. Anyway, this goes away for me when I

have recovered from my adrenal over taxation. For me, it took two

weeks to get over the shakyness when I had gone up to 5 grains and

wiped myself out.

I have read that in these situations, you need extra protein and

some have said that increasing sodium and potassium intake should

help, also. Rest is what most helps me.

Tish

[Guest guest]

my legs start jumping up and down quite uncontrollably. > Lynda

(in the UK)

___________________

I don't think your doctor is right here since I get this only when I

have overdone my adrenals or when I got my thyroid too high a while

ago (5 grains for me). Calcium/sodium balance plays a big role in

controlling nerve function. Calcium must cross cell boundaries in

order for muscle to contract properly. When adrenal is low and

thyroid builds up in the blood, sodium and potassium are lost

disturbing mineral balance and there develops problems in energy

production in the muscle. Muscle and nerve function becomes

inefficient, weak, and rough. Anyway, this goes away for me when I

have recovered from my adrenal over taxation. For me, it took two

weeks to get over the shakyness when I had gone up to 5 grains and

wiped myself out.

I have read that in these situations, you need extra protein and

some have said that increasing sodium and potassium intake should

help, also. Rest is what most helps me.

Tish