Re: Vitamin b-12 discussion

[Guest guest]

Liz -- B12 is found in some plant foods, either through contamination or because

microorganisms produce it, as in algae (spirulina) and yeast.

Nutritional yeast is enhanced with more vit. B12 made from yeast.

It is wrong to say B12 is not found in plant sources. It is right to say that we

need more than is available in these sources, unless a lot of nutritional yeast

is taken every day (which is what the vegans I know do).

No reason to simplify to the incorrect statement of: B12 is not found in plant

sources.

HJ

Ecmillerreid@... schrieb:

> I am presently a graduate student in nutrition and one of my texts _ Present

> Knowledge in Nutrition 8th edition (2001) ed. by Bowman and say that

> " Only microorganisms retain the ability to synthesize cobalamins and

> microbial synthesis pathways have been recently elucidated in a series of

> elegant studies. Because plants do not use cobalamins, the source of

> cobalamins in all higher animals is the product of microbial synthesis ...

> All animals require vitamin B12 and obtain it ultimately from the products of

> microbial synthesis. Ruminant animals carry bacteria that synthesize

> cobalamins in their rumen. Other vegetarian animals appear to obtain vitamin

> B12 from eating feces or feces-contaminated vegetable food. Omnivorous

> animals including humans obtain vitamin B12 from the products of animal

> origin, including meats, dairy products and eggs. It is possible that human

> also obtain vitamin B12 from sewage-contaminated foods. In the last 30 years,

> synthetic vitamin B12 has been added to many cereals and other foods in the

> Western world, so fortification is a major source of the vitamin.

>

> In Krause's Food, Nutrition and Diet Therapy, 10th edition (2000) they state

> that " Food of plant origin contain the vitamin only through contamination or

> bacterial synthesis. Many people believe that fermented foods contain

> sufficient vitamin B12 to meet their needs; however, this theory is not

> supported by analysis. ... In contrast, some cooked sea vegetables contained

> vitamin B12 in the same range as beef liver (through sewage contamination??)

> Individuals consuming strictly vegetarian diets, particularly after 5 to 6

> years, typically show lower circulating levels of vitamin B12 unless they

> supplement with the vitamin ... and elsewhere in the book... " Vegans of long

> standing may develop megaloblastic anemia because of vitamin B12 deficiency,

> inasmuch as the vitamin occurs only in foods of animal origin. Curiously,

> this is less of a problem in areas where sanitation is poor because

> contaminating bacteria can serve as a source of the vitamin. The hazard of

> vegan diets is that the presence of high levels of folate may mask the

> neurologic damage of B12 deficiency. " They recommend that vegan take

> supplements.

>

> That such a necessary vitamin is rarely found on plants and then seemingly

> only because of contamination, it stands to reason that Mother Nature must

> have expected us to get this most precious vitamin from more plentiful and

> more reliable foods -- namely animal foods. Even if cooked sea vegatables

> might have some vitamin B12 - there is no guarantee -- and just how prevalent

> would contaminated sea vegetables have been during our evolution? There's

> always feces I suppose. But would feces be considered animal food by a strict

> vegan.

>

> Namaste, Liz

[Guest guest]

See the B12 section in my veggie paper at

http://www.powerhealth.net/selected_articles.htm. There is no true B12 in

plant foods, only B12 analogues which the body cannot utilize.

SCB

>From: Ecmillerreid@...

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Vitamin b-12 discussion

>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 04:12:59 EST

>

>I am presently a graduate student in nutrition and one of my texts _

>Present

>Knowledge in Nutrition 8th edition (2001) ed. by Bowman and say

>that

> " Only microorganisms retain the ability to synthesize cobalamins and

>microbial synthesis pathways have been recently elucidated in a series of

>elegant studies. Because plants do not use cobalamins, the source of

>cobalamins in all higher animals is the product of microbial synthesis ...

>All animals require vitamin B12 and obtain it ultimately from the products

>of

>microbial synthesis. Ruminant animals carry bacteria that synthesize

>cobalamins in their rumen. Other vegetarian animals appear to obtain

>vitamin

>B12 from eating feces or feces-contaminated vegetable food. Omnivorous

>animals including humans obtain vitamin B12 from the products of animal

>origin, including meats, dairy products and eggs. It is possible that

>human

>also obtain vitamin B12 from sewage-contaminated foods. In the last 30

>years,

>synthetic vitamin B12 has been added to many cereals and other foods in the

>Western world, so fortification is a major source of the vitamin.

>

>In Krause's Food, Nutrition and Diet Therapy, 10th edition (2000) they

>state

>that " Food of plant origin contain the vitamin only through contamination

>or

>bacterial synthesis. Many people believe that fermented foods contain

>sufficient vitamin B12 to meet their needs; however, this theory is not

>supported by analysis. ... In contrast, some cooked sea vegetables

>contained

>vitamin B12 in the same range as beef liver (through sewage

>contamination??)

>Individuals consuming strictly vegetarian diets, particularly after 5 to 6

>years, typically show lower circulating levels of vitamin B12 unless they

>supplement with the vitamin ... and elsewhere in the book... " Vegans of

>long

>standing may develop megaloblastic anemia because of vitamin B12

>deficiency,

>inasmuch as the vitamin occurs only in foods of animal origin. Curiously,

>this is less of a problem in areas where sanitation is poor because

>contaminating bacteria can serve as a source of the vitamin. The hazard of

>vegan diets is that the presence of high levels of folate may mask the

>neurologic damage of B12 deficiency. " They recommend that vegan take

>supplements.

>

>That such a necessary vitamin is rarely found on plants and then seemingly

>only because of contamination, it stands to reason that Mother Nature must

>have expected us to get this most precious vitamin from more plentiful and

>more reliable foods -- namely animal foods. Even if cooked sea vegatables

>might have some vitamin B12 - there is no guarantee -- and just how

>prevalent

>would contaminated sea vegetables have been during our evolution? There's

>always feces I suppose. But would feces be considered animal food by a

>strict

>vegan.

>

>Namaste, Liz

All the best,

Byrnes, PhD, RNCP

http://www.PowerHealth.net

_________________________________________________________________

Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

[Guest guest]

--- In @y..., " Dr. Byrnes " <daxx404@h...>

wrote:

> See the B12 section in my veggie paper at

> http://www.powerhealth.net/selected_articles.htm. There is no true

B12 in

> plant foods, only B12 analogues which the body cannot utilize.

>

Also, even more telling IMO, is that the vegan websites also

acknowledge the fact that seaweeds only have B12 analogs. I did a

google search on " vegan B12 and spirulina " and the first 3 sites (I

skipped over the beyondveg sites - I know their take!) all

specifically mentioned that seaweeds contain an inactive form of B12.

I stopped reading after the first three, but I assume that if you

read enough you'll start to hit the fringy ones that maintain

otherwise.

[Guest guest]

I have read this article before, but I did not manage to understand the basis of

the statement. Perhaps I'm just not getting it. Are you suggesting that enriched

nutritional yeast--the staple and foundation of the vegan diet--does not provide

B12?

" Dr. Byrnes " schrieb:

> See the B12 section in my veggie paper at

> http://www.powerhealth.net/selected_articles.htm. There is no true B12 in

> plant foods, only B12 analogues which the body cannot utilize.

>

> SCB

>

> >From: Ecmillerreid@...

> >Reply-

> >

> >Subject: Vitamin b-12 discussion

> >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 04:12:59 EST

> >

> >I am presently a graduate student in nutrition and one of my texts _

> >Present

> >Knowledge in Nutrition 8th edition (2001) ed. by Bowman and say

> >that

> > " Only microorganisms retain the ability to synthesize cobalamins and

> >microbial synthesis pathways have been recently elucidated in a series of

> >elegant studies. Because plants do not use cobalamins, the source of

> >cobalamins in all higher animals is the product of microbial synthesis ...

> >All animals require vitamin B12 and obtain it ultimately from the products

> >of

> >microbial synthesis. Ruminant animals carry bacteria that synthesize

> >cobalamins in their rumen. Other vegetarian animals appear to obtain

> >vitamin

> >B12 from eating feces or feces-contaminated vegetable food. Omnivorous

> >animals including humans obtain vitamin B12 from the products of animal

> >origin, including meats, dairy products and eggs. It is possible that

> >human

> >also obtain vitamin B12 from sewage-contaminated foods. In the last 30

> >years,

> >synthetic vitamin B12 has been added to many cereals and other foods in the

> >Western world, so fortification is a major source of the vitamin.

> >

> >In Krause's Food, Nutrition and Diet Therapy, 10th edition (2000) they

> >state

> >that " Food of plant origin contain the vitamin only through contamination

> >or

> >bacterial synthesis. Many people believe that fermented foods contain

> >sufficient vitamin B12 to meet their needs; however, this theory is not

> >supported by analysis. ... In contrast, some cooked sea vegetables

> >contained

> >vitamin B12 in the same range as beef liver (through sewage

> >contamination??)

> >Individuals consuming strictly vegetarian diets, particularly after 5 to 6

> >years, typically show lower circulating levels of vitamin B12 unless they

> >supplement with the vitamin ... and elsewhere in the book... " Vegans of

> >long

> >standing may develop megaloblastic anemia because of vitamin B12

> >deficiency,

> >inasmuch as the vitamin occurs only in foods of animal origin. Curiously,

> >this is less of a problem in areas where sanitation is poor because

> >contaminating bacteria can serve as a source of the vitamin. The hazard of

> >vegan diets is that the presence of high levels of folate may mask the

> >neurologic damage of B12 deficiency. " They recommend that vegan take

> >supplements.

> >

> >That such a necessary vitamin is rarely found on plants and then seemingly

> >only because of contamination, it stands to reason that Mother Nature must

> >have expected us to get this most precious vitamin from more plentiful and

> >more reliable foods -- namely animal foods. Even if cooked sea vegatables

> >might have some vitamin B12 - there is no guarantee -- and just how

> >prevalent

> >would contaminated sea vegetables have been during our evolution? There's

> >always feces I suppose. But would feces be considered animal food by a

> >strict

> >vegan.

> >

> >Namaste, Liz

>

> All the best,

>

> Byrnes, PhD, RNCP

> http://www.PowerHealth.net

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 06:06 PM 3/25/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>Are you suggesting that enriched

>nutritional yeast--the staple and foundation of the vegan diet--does not

>provide

>B12?

Enriched yeast has B-12 and/or minerals added. Nutritional yeast does not

contain B-12, hence the commercially-made enriched version has wide appeal.

Here is a quote from a web site regarding your question.

" Nutritional yeast contains high levels of many important nutrients,

including all of the B vitamins (except for B12), 16 out of 20 amino acids,

and 14 different

minerals. "

http://www.healthandage.com/html/res/com/ConsSupplements/BrewersYeastcs.html

It would be very interesting to learn the source of the B-12 enrichment in

various brands of enriched yeast. Possible sources include cobalamin,

animal sources, etc. Anyone?

Regards,

-=mark=-

[Guest guest]

Here's some B12 info I found.

Great B12 article: http://www.pcrm.org/health/PDFs/faq_b12.pdf

" Few reliable vegan food sources for vitamin B12 are known. Tempeh, miso,

and seaweed often are labeled as having large amounts of vitamin B12.

However, these products are not reliable sources of the vitamin because the

amount of vitamin B12 present depends on the type of processing the food

undergoes (2,6). Also, Victor Herbert, a leading authority on vitamin B12

states that the amount on the label cannot be trusted because the current

method for measuring vitamin B12 in foods measures both active and inactive

forms of vitamin B12. The inactive form (also called analogues) actually

interferes with normal vitamin B12 absorption and metabolism (2,7). These

foods may contain more inactive than active vitamin B12.

At least one brand of nutritional yeast, Red Star T-6635+ (now called Red

Star Vegetarian Support Formula), has been tested and shown to contain

active vitamin B12. This brand of yeast is a reliable source of vitamin B12.

Nutritional yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, is a food yeast, grown on a

molasses solution, which comes as yellow flakes or powder. It has a cheesy

taste. Nutritional yeast is different from brewer's yeast or torula yeast.

It can often be used by those sensitive to other yeasts. "

http://www.natural-connection.com/resource/tnc_reference_library/b12_informa

tion.html

" B12 is not present IN foods so much as ON them within the dirt or bacteria.

Because animals eat plantforms complete with the dirt, they are able to

store B12 in their tissues. Meat eaters are then able to obtain this

nutrient in their food, whereas vegans must obtain it in a supplemental

form -- unless, of course, they adhere to the old saying " everyone must eat

a peck of dirt in their lifetime. " Still, it is advisable to take

supplements in this case. When plant foods are cleaned, the bacteria and the

B12 are removed. Modern farming techniques also deplete the soil of this

nutrient unless " organic " methods are used. Brewer's yeast fortified with

B12 is a good source of this nutrient. However, be aware that prolonged and

excessive use of brewer's yeast can impair kidney function. "

http://www.innvista.com/health/healvb12.htm

ine

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: <Ecmillerreid@...>

< >

Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 4:12 AM

Subject: Vitamin b-12 discussion

> I am presently a graduate student in nutrition and one of my texts _

Present

> Knowledge in Nutrition 8th edition (2001) ed. by Bowman and say

that

> " Only microorganisms retain the ability to synthesize cobalamins and

> microbial synthesis pathways have been recently elucidated in a series of

> elegant studies. Because plants do not use cobalamins, the source of

> cobalamins in all higher animals is the product of microbial synthesis ...

> All animals require vitamin B12 and obtain it ultimately from the products

of

> microbial synthesis. Ruminant animals carry bacteria that synthesize

> cobalamins in their rumen. Other vegetarian animals appear to obtain

vitamin

> B12 from eating feces or feces-contaminated vegetable food. Omnivorous

If microorganisms can synthesize cobalamins, why would the systhesis have

to be associated with feces. There are lots of microorganizms in heathly

soil - couldn't they also be synthesizing B12. Since most Western people

don't eat dirty foods that wouldn't be a good source of B12.

> animals including humans obtain vitamin B12 from the products of animal

> origin, including meats, dairy products and eggs. It is possible that

human

> also obtain vitamin B12 from sewage-contaminated foods. In the last 30

years,

Why sewage-contaminated? Some good healthy soil full of microorganizms might

serve just as well, and be an important source where people do not have such

a fetish for cleanliness.

> synthetic vitamin B12 has been added to many cereals and other foods in

the

> Western world, so fortification is a major source of the vitamin.

>

> In Krause's Food, Nutrition and Diet Therapy, 10th edition (2000) they

state

> that " Food of plant origin contain the vitamin only through contamination

or

> bacterial synthesis. Many people believe that fermented foods contain

> sufficient vitamin B12 to meet their needs; however, this theory is not

> supported by analysis. ... In contrast, some cooked sea vegetables

contained

> vitamin B12 in the same range as beef liver (through sewage

contamination??)

I would think that the ocean has plenty of microorganizms that congregate on

healthy sea vegetables, and may even be protective. Are you familiar with

the use of microorganizm-laden " compost teas " to innoculate plants with

healthy bacteria that fend off disease? I doubt that sewage contamination

would be necessary to have lots of B12 producing microorganizms around.

> Individuals consuming strictly vegetarian diets, particularly after 5 to 6

> years, typically show lower circulating levels of vitamin B12 unless they

> supplement with the vitamin ... and elsewhere in the book... " Vegans of

long

> standing may develop megaloblastic anemia because of vitamin B12

deficiency,

> inasmuch as the vitamin occurs only in foods of animal origin. Curiously,

> this is less of a problem in areas where sanitation is poor because

> contaminating bacteria can serve as a source of the vitamin. The hazard of

> vegan diets is that the presence of high levels of folate may mask the

> neurologic damage of B12 deficiency. " They recommend that vegan take

> supplements.

>

> That such a necessary vitamin is rarely found on plants and then seemingly

> only because of contamination, it stands to reason that Mother Nature must

> have expected us to get this most precious vitamin from more plentiful and

> more reliable foods -- namely animal foods. Even if cooked sea vegatables

> might have some vitamin B12 - there is no guarantee -- and just how

prevalent

> would contaminated sea vegetables have been during our evolution?

There's

> always feces I suppose. But would feces be considered animal food by a

strict

> vegan.

Better to go out in the garden and pick good organically grown carrots,

shake off the grit, and eat them without washing them.

Peace,

Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio (down to 970 unread messages!)