Re: Bloating + rT3 concerns

[Guest guest]

Thanks Nick. _If_ I am getting more Hypo - That doesn't make things easier for me to understand or cope with. I just figured I needed to do _everything_ I could to save my health, so I went to Hertoghe, who supposedly was a great hormone specialist. And he is! Now I'm trying his plan.However, I didn't get super hypo while on T4 only in 2008 and into 2009. I had normal looking labs, and didn't bloat very much. The bloating started after adding HC to my regime. And lately, bloating has gotten worse. Much worse. Especially in the face. I don't see how ERFA Thyroid would make me worse than synthetic T4! ERFA Thyroid's got T3 in it, so I would be better off on Thyroid than syn-T4 anyway, I guess. (?)I've had skipped heartbeats since January 2008 (one of my main horrible symptoms). I was on a T3/T4-combo back then. No HC. I

could've had low cortisol and no rT3 problem. Even if labs proved I had a bad FT3-rT3 ratio earlier this year. However, after the ENDO I went to at the time removed my T3, I started feeling worse, and then she added 50 mcg EXTRA of T4 to my 100 mcg T4. THAT could've created some rT3 issues. Can this be true? Who knows. I am trying to figure out the whole rT3 thing in my case when I didn't get very hypo with T4-only. I was weak, felt bad, yes. But I didn't bloat! I did have brainfog. There is so much uncertainty about my condition.I have learned _way_ much stuff on here thanks to Val, Nick, and others. I will for sure go right back to T3-only if ERFA Thyroid won't do me no good after several months of testing ERFA Thyroid. Just hope I'll make it through and not fail (die) trying this treatment. Guess it takes a while longer before that happens. went thru a lot of heard years, and saved herself. She made it! Hope I can make it

too, if everything else fails.I don't have a lot of brainfog at the moment, my vision and thoughts are "ok". And today I walked like 2 kilometers. (15-20 minute walk) so my body can work. Somtimes. I was, however, very tired after that walk. VERY tired.I do feel sick, no doubt about it though. And my weight is still 106 kilos. (200+ lbs)At the moment, the main thing bothering me is the pressure and pain in my head. Could be high cortisol as pointed out for me. COULD also be rT3 doing something with me. So let's focus on rT3 for a moment here since we're in the rT3 group.Nick, or anyone else, wouldn't my temps get lower with rT3 blocking T3? My pulse is about 68 at the moment. Been like that for a few days. 20 lower than 1+ week ago. Could that be rT3 starting to block T3? I've been on ERFA Thyroid for 6 weeks, though on 1 grain for the past 10 days only. Tomorrow I'll

exchange 10 mcg T3 for 1/4 more grain of Thyroid.What are the things I need to look out for changing T3 to ERFA Thyroid, simply put?I remember Hertoghe telling me: "If ERFA Thyroid won't do you any good, we'll go back to T3-only." and I know he's got some people on T3-only, so I guess there is hope afterall. I do see the reasons why he wants me to try ERFA Thyroid. It IS the best Hypo-medicine out there. For those with no rT3-issues that is. He wants me to do all the hormones before I try T3-only again; ERFA Thyroid, HC, DHEA, Testosterone gel (gonna start that any day now), possibly Florinef IF aldosterone labs prove I need it...I have to be honest.. Except from my bloating, pain and pressure in my head, worrying about salt intake (do I need more or less...!?), rT3 is my main concern. If I indeed have it, or will get it, well.. I don't feel safe! That's the point. But we'll see how it goes! Hope

I'll be able to change to T3-only in time, if that's what I really, really, really need.Oh, by the way, another private specialist (Hypo specialist) I had an app with yesterday, for chit-chat only, told me that they are proving more and more, like in Denmark now, in studies, that many people need T3 in addition to T4 treatment. In this case, ERFA Thyroid would be the best. But, I await the day when rT3-treatment with T3-only will be approved, so that we don't have to feel like we're "alone" when being on it. The best thing would be for us to find out what causes rT3-issues. For me, it could be my tonsils (which will be fixed as soon as I can do that - awaiting Hertoghes instructions, since he's my main doc!) or something else..Bloating can be a sign of hypo, but also high cortisol. I am now going down on my HC dose. When I really might should be upping my T3 dose instead. Hmmm. This is hard! But I'll hang in there!

Gotta stick with one plan at a time! At least I know a lot about T3-only treatment now and could even do it alone the next time if I had to. That's how much I feel I know already! Thanks to you guys!Have a safe and relaxing Saturday, people!

>What do I do? I have _no_ idea.

Contact your Dr in Belgium, you are on his pprotocol and hence we

can't help. Val and fellow mods on the adrenal group have a regime

that's worked for a lot of people but they can't help if you take a

different route.

 

Theur wen site is here

http://faqhelp. webs.com/

It's the same with RT3, we have a protocol worked out by Val and a lot

of people that have followed it that works, there is more than one

way of doing things but adding Erfa back in before clearance occurrs

and then going hypo on the labs is outside our experience so we can't

help.

Remember that bloating can be a hypo symptom and that being hypo

stresses adrenals.

Nick

__

[Guest guest]

>Tomorrow I'll exchange 10 mcg T3 for 1/4 more grain of Thyroid.

This is where you are getting hypo, the change between the Erfa and T3

is going wrong.

If you drop 10 of T3 you need to add a whole grain of Erfa, about a

week later you can drop another 15 T3 once the T4 builds up and starts

converting.

If you add a quarter grain then drop 2.5 of T3, a week later drop

another 5.

Have a read of here

http://thyroid-rt3.com/swapping.htm

You've just said your pulse has dropped over the last week, 68 is a

hypo pulse rate.

Taking less thyroid " uses up " less HC, that's why you are getting the

" too much HC " symptoms, by cutting out too much thyroid you are

needing less HC.

Nick

--

for more information on RT3 and Thyroid Resistance go to

www.thyroid-rt3.com

[Guest guest]

Wow..... This means Hertoghe is way off, which is very bad!Thank you for enlightening me!!!! Makes sense!Got loud ringing in my ears now too:(Sendt fra min iPhoneDen 24. apr. 2010 kl. 23.49 skrev Nick Foot :

>Tomorrow I'll exchange 10 mcg T3 for 1/4 more grain of Thyroid.

This is where you are getting hypo, the change between the Erfa and T3

is going wrong.

If you drop 10 of T3 you need to add a whole grain of Erfa, about a

week later you can drop another 15 T3 once the T4 builds up and starts

converting.

If you add a quarter grain then drop 2.5 of T3, a week later drop

another 5.

Have a read of here

http://thyroid-rt3.com/swapping.htm

You've just said your pulse has dropped over the last week, 68 is a

hypo pulse rate.

Taking less thyroid "uses up" less HC, that's why you are getting the

"too much HC" symptoms, by cutting out too much thyroid you are

needing less HC.

Nick

--

for more information on RT3 and Thyroid Resistance go to

www.thyroid-rt3.com

[Guest guest]

Wow..... This means Hertoghe is way off, which is very bad!Thank you for enlightening me!!!! Makes sense!Got loud ringing in my ears now too:(Sendt fra min iPhoneDen 24. apr. 2010 kl. 23.49 skrev Nick Foot :

>Tomorrow I'll exchange 10 mcg T3 for 1/4 more grain of Thyroid.

This is where you are getting hypo, the change between the Erfa and T3

is going wrong.

If you drop 10 of T3 you need to add a whole grain of Erfa, about a

week later you can drop another 15 T3 once the T4 builds up and starts

converting.

If you add a quarter grain then drop 2.5 of T3, a week later drop

another 5.

Have a read of here

http://thyroid-rt3.com/swapping.htm

You've just said your pulse has dropped over the last week, 68 is a

hypo pulse rate.

Taking less thyroid "uses up" less HC, that's why you are getting the

"too much HC" symptoms, by cutting out too much thyroid you are

needing less HC.

Nick

--

for more information on RT3 and Thyroid Resistance go to

www.thyroid-rt3.com

[Guest guest]

>

>Wow..... This means Hertoghe is way off, which is very bad!

>Thank you for enlightening me!!!! Makes sense!

This is why your labs have been sliding off.

It sounds like he is better at adrenals than thyroid. If you look back

at my replies to you when the Erfa was being introduced I was asking

if the dose reduction was deliberate.

>Got loud ringing in my ears now too:(

Answer the phone????

Nick

[Guest guest]

>

>Wow..... This means Hertoghe is way off, which is very bad!

>Thank you for enlightening me!!!! Makes sense!

This is why your labs have been sliding off.

It sounds like he is better at adrenals than thyroid. If you look back

at my replies to you when the Erfa was being introduced I was asking

if the dose reduction was deliberate.

>Got loud ringing in my ears now too:(

Answer the phone????

Nick

[Guest guest]

>

>Wow..... This means Hertoghe is way off, which is very bad!

>Thank you for enlightening me!!!! Makes sense!

This is why your labs have been sliding off.

It sounds like he is better at adrenals than thyroid. If you look back

at my replies to you when the Erfa was being introduced I was asking

if the dose reduction was deliberate.

>Got loud ringing in my ears now too:(

Answer the phone????

Nick

[Guest guest]

>Thank you for enlightening me!!!! Makes sense!

The other thing that comes to mind, you've told us several times that

you have " type 2 Hypothyroidism "

The definition of that is that " normal levels of thyroid hormone are

not enough " , Swapping those words round means you " need to have out

of range labs to feel well " .

Boosting the circulating levels to " out of range " by adding T4 or a

T4/T3 combo leads to RT3 production, you start off feeling well but

the treatment wears off, boosting it further makes even more RT3.

The answer to getting the FT3 levels to an " out of range " level in a

stable way is to go T3 only, initially you may get surges as RT3

clears but then you can get it to a long term stable point at whatever

level your body needs to function

Have a read of this one, there is a nice definition of Type 2 here

http://www.type2hypothyroidism.com/Type1VsType2.html

and some photos of swollen faces from hypo!

The big change in your treatment since you started swapping to Erfa is

a drop in your FT3 and rise in TSH.

Nick

[Guest guest]

>Thank you for enlightening me!!!! Makes sense!

The other thing that comes to mind, you've told us several times that

you have " type 2 Hypothyroidism "

The definition of that is that " normal levels of thyroid hormone are

not enough " , Swapping those words round means you " need to have out

of range labs to feel well " .

Boosting the circulating levels to " out of range " by adding T4 or a

T4/T3 combo leads to RT3 production, you start off feeling well but

the treatment wears off, boosting it further makes even more RT3.

The answer to getting the FT3 levels to an " out of range " level in a

stable way is to go T3 only, initially you may get surges as RT3

clears but then you can get it to a long term stable point at whatever

level your body needs to function

Have a read of this one, there is a nice definition of Type 2 here

http://www.type2hypothyroidism.com/Type1VsType2.html

and some photos of swollen faces from hypo!

The big change in your treatment since you started swapping to Erfa is

a drop in your FT3 and rise in TSH.

Nick

[Guest guest]

>Thank you for enlightening me!!!! Makes sense!

The other thing that comes to mind, you've told us several times that

you have " type 2 Hypothyroidism "

The definition of that is that " normal levels of thyroid hormone are

not enough " , Swapping those words round means you " need to have out

of range labs to feel well " .

Boosting the circulating levels to " out of range " by adding T4 or a

T4/T3 combo leads to RT3 production, you start off feeling well but

the treatment wears off, boosting it further makes even more RT3.

The answer to getting the FT3 levels to an " out of range " level in a

stable way is to go T3 only, initially you may get surges as RT3

clears but then you can get it to a long term stable point at whatever

level your body needs to function

Have a read of this one, there is a nice definition of Type 2 here

http://www.type2hypothyroidism.com/Type1VsType2.html

and some photos of swollen faces from hypo!

The big change in your treatment since you started swapping to Erfa is

a drop in your FT3 and rise in TSH.

Nick

[Guest guest]

Thanks Nick. I read Mark Starr's book two years ago. It's a good read. There are many theories about my health, and the amalgame/mercury one seems to be quite valid. When I first was bloated and fat all over, more than now, back in 1991-1997, I started T4-only treatment (in 1997). It worked VERY well. The doc added T3 to my T4 in 2004. In 2008 everything went down and under... Something happened. If it was low cortisol, that could explain the T3 pooling. I think Hertoghe treats me for some kind of Hypothyroidism, but not Reverse T3-Dominance. He wants me to take other hormones first to see if it helps. His own words are: "The problem with the rT3-theory is that people should first correct other hormone deficiencies; Cortisol, Testosteone, DHEA, Growth Hormones." (before going on T3-only). He also told me "the body needs T0, T1, T2, T4, calcitonin also. the

body does better with all those added, not just T3."Mark Starr, the author of the book and website "Type 2 Hypothyroidism" likes to give people Dessicated Thyroid. He doesn't even mention rT3 (I think???).My latest lab on 65 mctg T3-only, medication fasting, showed this -26th of February 2010:FT4 4.9FT3 5.7TSH 0.42So, not a huge change since adding ERFA Thyroid, really. Pretty much the same, except FT4 is a bit higher now after 6 weeks with ERFA Thyroid.Labs after 6 weeks on T3 / ERFA:FT4 6.2FT3 5.6TSH 0.22The FT3 is identical before and after ERFA. So, I don't know. Maybe it's too early to tell. Or maybe I just took too little T3 while I was on T3-only? 65 mcg isn't all that much. I need at least 75+ mcg right?It will be interesting to see where this all goes.

To a dark place, or to someplace better. I hope the latter. But I am not 100% sure though.Nick - Why didn't I get bloated on 150 mcg T4 only in 2008 and into 2009? I thought rT3 should've kicked in by that time?

>Thank you for enlightening me!!!! Makes sense!

The other thing that comes to mind, you've told us several times that

you have "type 2 Hypothyroidism"

The definition of that is that "normal levels of thyroid hormone are

not enough", Swapping those words round means you "need to have out

of range labs to feel well".

Boosting the circulating levels to "out of range" by adding T4 or a

T4/T3 combo leads to RT3 production, you start off feeling well but

the treatment wears off, boosting it further makes even more RT3.

The answer to getting the FT3 levels to an "out of range" level in a

stable way is to go T3 only, initially you may get surges as RT3

clears but then you can get it to a long term stable point at whatever

level your body needs to function

Have a read of this one, there is a nice definition of Type 2 here

http://www.type2hyp othyroidism. com/Type1VsType2 .html

and some photos of swollen faces from hypo!

The big change in your treatment since you started swapping to Erfa is

a drop in your FT3 and rise in TSH.

Nick

[Guest guest]

Thanks Nick. I read Mark Starr's book two years ago. It's a good read. There are many theories about my health, and the amalgame/mercury one seems to be quite valid. When I first was bloated and fat all over, more than now, back in 1991-1997, I started T4-only treatment (in 1997). It worked VERY well. The doc added T3 to my T4 in 2004. In 2008 everything went down and under... Something happened. If it was low cortisol, that could explain the T3 pooling. I think Hertoghe treats me for some kind of Hypothyroidism, but not Reverse T3-Dominance. He wants me to take other hormones first to see if it helps. His own words are: "The problem with the rT3-theory is that people should first correct other hormone deficiencies; Cortisol, Testosteone, DHEA, Growth Hormones." (before going on T3-only). He also told me "the body needs T0, T1, T2, T4, calcitonin also. the

body does better with all those added, not just T3."Mark Starr, the author of the book and website "Type 2 Hypothyroidism" likes to give people Dessicated Thyroid. He doesn't even mention rT3 (I think???).My latest lab on 65 mctg T3-only, medication fasting, showed this -26th of February 2010:FT4 4.9FT3 5.7TSH 0.42So, not a huge change since adding ERFA Thyroid, really. Pretty much the same, except FT4 is a bit higher now after 6 weeks with ERFA Thyroid.Labs after 6 weeks on T3 / ERFA:FT4 6.2FT3 5.6TSH 0.22The FT3 is identical before and after ERFA. So, I don't know. Maybe it's too early to tell. Or maybe I just took too little T3 while I was on T3-only? 65 mcg isn't all that much. I need at least 75+ mcg right?It will be interesting to see where this all goes.

To a dark place, or to someplace better. I hope the latter. But I am not 100% sure though.Nick - Why didn't I get bloated on 150 mcg T4 only in 2008 and into 2009? I thought rT3 should've kicked in by that time?

>Thank you for enlightening me!!!! Makes sense!

The other thing that comes to mind, you've told us several times that

you have "type 2 Hypothyroidism"

The definition of that is that "normal levels of thyroid hormone are

not enough", Swapping those words round means you "need to have out

of range labs to feel well".

Boosting the circulating levels to "out of range" by adding T4 or a

T4/T3 combo leads to RT3 production, you start off feeling well but

the treatment wears off, boosting it further makes even more RT3.

The answer to getting the FT3 levels to an "out of range" level in a

stable way is to go T3 only, initially you may get surges as RT3

clears but then you can get it to a long term stable point at whatever

level your body needs to function

Have a read of this one, there is a nice definition of Type 2 here

http://www.type2hyp othyroidism. com/Type1VsType2 .html

and some photos of swollen faces from hypo!

The big change in your treatment since you started swapping to Erfa is

a drop in your FT3 and rise in TSH.

Nick

[Guest guest]

>

>It will be interesting to see where this all goes. To a dark place, or to

someplace better. I hope the latter. But I am not 100% sure though.

>Nick - Why didn't I get bloated on 150 mcg T4 only in 2008 and into 2009? I

thought rT3 should've kicked in by that time?

With a pulse of under 70 and being unfit you are almost certainly

hypo.

The previous success of T4 and T4/T3 treatment was before RT3 built

up, this is typical for type 2 hypo, things work to start with and

then stop working.

In my case I just carried on adding more natural every year or so

dosing by how I felt and not by labs, I got up to 12 grains a day and

felt human on that.

When Armour reformulated I felt terrible, I had a little of an old

batch left, took that and felt better. Something was going on and I

came back to the Internet thyroid resources after a gap of 8 years or

so to see if other people had trouble (they did, I was one of the

first posting about it though). While I was there I found out about

RT3. Going T3 only I feel better than I ever did on natural and

looking back I was hypo at school 40 years ago (constipated, foggy

thinking, and very late puberty)!

I can think better than I ever have in my life and have energy and

focus. If my dose is off people around me can tell before I can, it is

that subtle.

The nature of hypo is that your ability to think things through gets

badly affected.

My gut feeling is that you need a raise in the T3, if you have Type 2

(and I suspect the diagnosis is one of elimination and trial

treatment) then you are going to need to be on 125 or more of T3 or

the equivalent of that.

The " typical range " for T3 is 75 to 125, some fall outside that range

in both directions, I have been taking 150 and doing well on it.

It might be worth you adding another 10 of T3 every 3 days or so to

try and get your resting pulse up to 80, maybe even 85.

You are needing less HC at the moment as your dose has gone down, you

may well need a bit more again when you go up.

Finding the " sweet spot " is a matter of experimentation, labs can get

you close but lab ranges are " typical " and some people will feel

better out of range. Your range is higher than the typical US ranges

as it's in mols and not nanograms. Val feels best at 6 with a range

that stops at 4. Extrapolating from that you may feel best at an FT3

of 10 of so as your ranges goes up to 6.

If you actually have type 2 you will need FT3 out of range to feel

right.

Disclaimer time, this does not apply to everyone, we are all

different and " most people " won't need to go out of range to feel

right..

Nick

--

for more information on RT3 and Thyroid Resistance go to

www.thyroid-rt3.com

[Guest guest]

>

>It will be interesting to see where this all goes. To a dark place, or to

someplace better. I hope the latter. But I am not 100% sure though.

>Nick - Why didn't I get bloated on 150 mcg T4 only in 2008 and into 2009? I

thought rT3 should've kicked in by that time?

With a pulse of under 70 and being unfit you are almost certainly

hypo.

The previous success of T4 and T4/T3 treatment was before RT3 built

up, this is typical for type 2 hypo, things work to start with and

then stop working.

In my case I just carried on adding more natural every year or so

dosing by how I felt and not by labs, I got up to 12 grains a day and

felt human on that.

When Armour reformulated I felt terrible, I had a little of an old

batch left, took that and felt better. Something was going on and I

came back to the Internet thyroid resources after a gap of 8 years or

so to see if other people had trouble (they did, I was one of the

first posting about it though). While I was there I found out about

RT3. Going T3 only I feel better than I ever did on natural and

looking back I was hypo at school 40 years ago (constipated, foggy

thinking, and very late puberty)!

I can think better than I ever have in my life and have energy and

focus. If my dose is off people around me can tell before I can, it is

that subtle.

The nature of hypo is that your ability to think things through gets

badly affected.

My gut feeling is that you need a raise in the T3, if you have Type 2

(and I suspect the diagnosis is one of elimination and trial

treatment) then you are going to need to be on 125 or more of T3 or

the equivalent of that.

The " typical range " for T3 is 75 to 125, some fall outside that range

in both directions, I have been taking 150 and doing well on it.

It might be worth you adding another 10 of T3 every 3 days or so to

try and get your resting pulse up to 80, maybe even 85.

You are needing less HC at the moment as your dose has gone down, you

may well need a bit more again when you go up.

Finding the " sweet spot " is a matter of experimentation, labs can get

you close but lab ranges are " typical " and some people will feel

better out of range. Your range is higher than the typical US ranges

as it's in mols and not nanograms. Val feels best at 6 with a range

that stops at 4. Extrapolating from that you may feel best at an FT3

of 10 of so as your ranges goes up to 6.

If you actually have type 2 you will need FT3 out of range to feel

right.

Disclaimer time, this does not apply to everyone, we are all

different and " most people " won't need to go out of range to feel

right..

Nick

--

for more information on RT3 and Thyroid Resistance go to

www.thyroid-rt3.com

[Guest guest]

>

>It will be interesting to see where this all goes. To a dark place, or to

someplace better. I hope the latter. But I am not 100% sure though.

>Nick - Why didn't I get bloated on 150 mcg T4 only in 2008 and into 2009? I

thought rT3 should've kicked in by that time?

With a pulse of under 70 and being unfit you are almost certainly

hypo.

The previous success of T4 and T4/T3 treatment was before RT3 built

up, this is typical for type 2 hypo, things work to start with and

then stop working.

In my case I just carried on adding more natural every year or so

dosing by how I felt and not by labs, I got up to 12 grains a day and

felt human on that.

When Armour reformulated I felt terrible, I had a little of an old

batch left, took that and felt better. Something was going on and I

came back to the Internet thyroid resources after a gap of 8 years or

so to see if other people had trouble (they did, I was one of the

first posting about it though). While I was there I found out about

RT3. Going T3 only I feel better than I ever did on natural and

looking back I was hypo at school 40 years ago (constipated, foggy

thinking, and very late puberty)!

I can think better than I ever have in my life and have energy and

focus. If my dose is off people around me can tell before I can, it is

that subtle.

The nature of hypo is that your ability to think things through gets

badly affected.

My gut feeling is that you need a raise in the T3, if you have Type 2

(and I suspect the diagnosis is one of elimination and trial

treatment) then you are going to need to be on 125 or more of T3 or

the equivalent of that.

The " typical range " for T3 is 75 to 125, some fall outside that range

in both directions, I have been taking 150 and doing well on it.

It might be worth you adding another 10 of T3 every 3 days or so to

try and get your resting pulse up to 80, maybe even 85.

You are needing less HC at the moment as your dose has gone down, you

may well need a bit more again when you go up.

Finding the " sweet spot " is a matter of experimentation, labs can get

you close but lab ranges are " typical " and some people will feel

better out of range. Your range is higher than the typical US ranges

as it's in mols and not nanograms. Val feels best at 6 with a range

that stops at 4. Extrapolating from that you may feel best at an FT3

of 10 of so as your ranges goes up to 6.

If you actually have type 2 you will need FT3 out of range to feel

right.

Disclaimer time, this does not apply to everyone, we are all

different and " most people " won't need to go out of range to feel

right..

Nick

--

for more information on RT3 and Thyroid Resistance go to

www.thyroid-rt3.com