RE: Re: Lacto Fermentation

[Guest guest]

Thanks, e and Carmen. This DOES challenge the way you think. I'm kind

of used to the concept in wine -- I consider a good wine to be a lot safer

on the shelf than, say, soda or cider, because it's got all those yeast

protecting it. The only thing that grows in wine is vinegar bacteria

(lactobacillus, I think?).

My friend in high school was VERY relaxed about making her monthly kimchi,

and didn't use organic anything. I always wondered about that: it was

basically in a bucket out on the porch. I did a web search on kimchi, and

interestingly enough, couldn't find any warnings about anything (unlike

canning, for instance!), even though it is always eaten cold. The Korean

method soaks the cabbage in large chunks, in salt water, for some time

before leaving it to ferment, and the hot peppers may offer some more

protection, I don't know. Possibly if you grow up with it you learn methods

you don't even think about, or you get used to a bit of non-lacto bacteria

now and then and it doesn't make you sick. But kimchi and miso are about

the ONLY vegetable products I could find at our local market that are

fermented and still have live bacteria in them. I wonder if the Koreans

will eventually give up and accept pastuerized kraut too?

Anyway, I'm not interested in making my family sick either, so I'll

experiment on me too! Apparently what you got wasn't botulism, at least,

you are still here ...

> i have since gotten rid of the cook --as well as that sauerkraut--

> and have enjoyed my own l-f sauerkraut, carrots (i just sealed my 2nd

> batch), and beet kvass. i always use organic and am scrupulous about

> cleaning.

I have a question about 'sealing' them. In canning that generally means a

hot water bath. Or do you mean just packing the carrots in the jar and

screwing the top on? How 'sealed' does the seal need to be? (on some

writups, some people leave the lid on loosely so the gas will escape: it

seems the jars don't care though).

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

Heidi wrote:

> The only thing that grows in wine is vinegar bacteria

> (lactobacillus, I think?).

Actually, it's acetobacter. There are many types just as there are many

types of lactobacilli. The main one responsible for vinegar formation,

however, is acetobacter aceti. I could be wrong, but I believe the name of

the bacteria is because of the name of the acid produced...or perhaps the

other way around.

lactobacilli=lactic acid

acetobacter=acetic acid

[Guest guest]

> Possibly if you grow up with it you learn methods

> you don't even think about, or you get used to a bit of non-lacto bacteria

> now and then and it doesn't make you sick.

I wonder too, if people who regularly make such ferments don't have the

benefit of a greater environmental population of the desired bacteria. I'm

thinking of how sourdough makers will sometimes specifically use the same

porous implements every time for handling the cultures and the dough. This

allows the ambient yeasts and bacteria involved to continuously " re-infect "

the ingredients. There is also supposedly the phenomenon of people who make

sourdough very often having very high levels of the correct wild yeasts and

bacteria present in the air of their kitchens.

I'd be curious whether your kimchee friend used the same bucket every

time...and whether she did anything approaching disinfection between

batches. That could play a large role in her success too...

[Guest guest]

>

>

>once bitten and all that, i was afraid that these signs meant that i

>had failed at lacto-fermenting, but i do remember that the lid on the

>unsuccessful batch could still be pushed in.

e:

All I can say is that from the websites I've seen, the amount of sealing

doesn't seem to be an issue for making it go bad, some people leave the

lids on 'loosely' (so air can push out, I presume), and the crocks for sale

just let the gas bubble out (but have a weight to keep the kraut down). But

the Korean kimchi doesn't even worry about being underwater, really. I'm

beginning to think the kimchi in the store is basically packed in the jar

to ferment, and it is dry on top, no liquid.

I was thinking of putting an ad in the paper: " Wanted: teacher with Korean

heritage to teach humble silly American how to make proper kimchi " . Ummm,

squid or shrimp sure sounds good too.

-- Heidi S.

[Guest guest]

>

>

>Actually, it's acetobacter. There are many types just as there are many

>types of lactobacilli. The main one responsible for vinegar formation,

>however, is acetobacter aceti. I could be wrong, but I believe the name of

>the bacteria is because of the name of the acid produced...or perhaps the

>other way around.

>

>lactobacilli=lactic acid

>acetobacter=acetic acid

That sounds more correct!

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>

>

>I'd be curious whether your kimchee friend used the same bucket every

>time...and whether she did anything approaching disinfection between

>batches. That could play a large role in her success too...

>

>

I'd bet she used the same bucket, and no, there was nothing approaching

disinfection. So there probably was a mess of that kind of bacteria around.

Their family was in general very neat and tidy, but not scrupulous (as I

learned later to be in making wine). I do not think they had even heard of

Chlorox. Though I don't think traditional wine makers were all that clean

either: it's probably as you say: the wooden buckets were loaded with the

right yeast, and grapes in the wild are full of good yeast too. The

finished product for wine wasn't all that consistent until recently though,

with special yeast innoculations and good chemistry tests.

In Europe though, I've heard the reason cheeses were named after the town

is that all the cheeses in each town ended up tasting like " that town's "

bacteria! The concept of 'starters' was pretty recent, and not all

cheesemakers use them yet.

-- Heidi S.

[Guest guest]

> In Europe though, I've heard the reason cheeses were named after the town

> is that all the cheeses in each town ended up tasting like " that town's "

> bacteria! The concept of 'starters' was pretty recent, and not all

> cheesemakers use them yet.

That's definitely a factor as the belgian beers can attest. Most of the

monastery-brewed belgian beers were allowed to self-innoculate with wild

yeasts from the air within the monastery. There are other highly local

factors too though.

Single-malt scotches obtain their individual character from many factors not

only in how they're processed but also in the water, soil, temperature, etc.

Many of the distilleries use local creek water that has visible levels of

dissolved peat from nearby peat fields. The peat in each area is composed

of slightly different types of ancient vegetation. The age of the peat can

factor into how " developed " the peat is in the spectrum between humus and

coal. The mineral variations between highland produced scotches and island

produced scotches fosters a greater briny tang in the island produced

varieties.

Many french cheeses are not only specific to locale but also to season and

even breed. There are cheeses that are only made from the milk of

particular breeds such as Saler cattle while a particular plant dominates

the forage or while a particular plant is flowering.