Re: raw eggs for babies?

[Guest guest]

>

>I buy eggs from the health food store that are organic, cage-free (not

>free-range) and fed with flax, etc, for high-omega-3 eggs. But for

>feeding babies, I'm thinking they ought to be truly free-range and

>organic. Am I being overly cautious? So far I haven't been able to

>acquire eggs or milk from a farmer I know personally where I can see the

>chickens and cows. :-(

I know not everyone can do it, but in some cities now you can keep a

chicken or two (not a rooster though) in your yard: some people even keep

them on their apartment balconies. It's become quite the thing to do in

Seattle. I was really scared to get them when I got mine, it seemed so

daunting. Mind you, we'd had cats and dogs and they didn't scare me at all!

We do have the advantage that we have a big yard though. Now we have a

little flock and I'd HIGHLY encourage it, for the following reasons:

1. Your eggs will really be fresh. All the 'free range' eggs I can find in

the store are much, much older than my month-old eggs in the fridge. You

can tell by how easily the peel when hard-boiled and how much they float in

cold water. A fresh egg (even my 2-month-old eggs) does not float at all

and is next to impossible to peel when hard-boiled.

2. You know the chickens are healthy and fed well.

3. The chickens will help eat your 'garbage' -- they are great on leftover

salad, cornmeal, whatever. They will also 'debug' your garden, as long as

you don't have any poisonous plants for them (like rhubarb). We keep ours

in the overwintered garden to keep the weeds down.

4. You get great plant fertilizer.

A good hen lays about 200 eggs a year, costs about $2.00 as a chick, and is

easier to care for than your average cat. They do need to be outside (there

is a bit of dander and smell involved: you can keep them in a big cage over

grass and move the cage daily, which is pretty odor-free, or use shavings

and change the cage). Letting them run loose in a big area is ideal, but

it's not absolutely required just to get good eggs. I've had mine penned up

at various times and the eggs were still excellent: just give them greens

(weeds you pull up are great, they get bugs too) and oyster shell calcium

and some extra protein (leftovers, or worms from the worm bin, also a big

thing in Seattle!).

However, it seems even commercial eggs rarely get salmonella (it's like one

in 10,000 eggs, I think). Commercial eggs have much thinner shells, which

could be part of the problem, or the crowding, or the antibiotics or

generally poor diet. Healthy chickens should produce safe eggs. They may

get bacteria on the shells though, so be careful cracking them (a vinegar

dip or baking-soda scrub or something wouldn't be a bad idea, for a baby).

Plus it takes time at room temperature for the bacteria to multiply, so

fresher eggs are much safer.

You can also contact your local 4H or extension and find local

small-farmers. Most people who have chickens tend to have extra eggs.

Anyway, I always eat mine runny and never had a problem. I won't eat raw

egg products in a restaurant though (like Caesar salad), I know too many

people who got sick that way.

-- Heidi S.

[Guest guest]

At 05:04 PM 3/27/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>I buy eggs from the health food store that are organic, cage-free (not

>free-range) and fed with flax, etc, for high-omega-3 eggs. But for

>feeding babies, I'm thinking they ought to be truly free-range and

>organic. Am I being overly cautious?

A prudent course to take - caution is good. You might search for fertile

eggs - there is some component that interferes slightly with proper

digestion (or assimilation) of the egg if it is sterile. Also, you are

right that free-range and organic is much better. Chickens are omnivorous

and need to eat insects, small animals, grass, bugs that eat grass, seeds,

etc., to thrive and produce the best eggs possible. Eggs, as you described

them above, might be from chickens fed with grain and supplements alone -

not a very balanced diet for an omnivore. With an vegetarian diet the

chickens and eggs will not be as healthy as they might be. That is why the

flax is added - to help balance out the Omega-3 and Omega-6 ratio.

We need a balance of Omega-3 to Omega-6 fatty acids in our diet - similar

to that found in nature-fed animals. The prevailing " wisdom " indicates

approximately a 2:1 Omega-6 to Omega-3 ratio and no higher than about

4:1. A cursory check on the Internet showed me some flax-fed chicken eggs

with a ratio about 1.75:1 - not too bad and very close to the (probable)

ratio in the free-range eggs I use (about 2:1). Conventional, commercial

eggs have somewhere in the neighborhood of a 20:1 ratio.

An interesting side note - I get fertile, organic, free-range eggs and when

I open any and all of these wonderfully fresh eggs it smells to me very

similar to fish (other eggs I've tried do not have this smell). I wish I

knew why this is so. Perhaps it is the fatty acids ratio that is responsible?

Regards,

-=mark=-

[Guest guest]

Mark-

>A cursory check on the Internet showed me some flax-fed chicken eggs

>with a ratio about 1.75:1 - not too bad and very close to the (probable)

>ratio in the free-range eggs I use (about 2:1).

The problem with flax eggs is that their omega 3 fat presumably remains

largely that of flax oil -- IOW, a very inefficient source for people.

>I wish I

>knew why this is so. Perhaps it is the fatty acids ratio that is responsible?

AFAIK it's the fatty acids, and there's no way around it short of eating

crap eggs.

-

[Guest guest]

Carma, how old is your baby? I breastfed my third and forth exclusively for more

than a year, and they were quite well-fed looking. Of my four children, they are

the ones who do not have allergies. If your breastmilk is good quality and

enough

there's no reason you should supplement. I know that Sally suggests this in any

case, (thus setting herself far from lactation mainstream which supports

exclusive

bfing for as long as baby wants) but if you do not find the feeding material

that

satisfies you, what about building your supply to meet her needs? Sally has also

provided recipes for fermented grain drinks to support supply, and grain drinks

without the fermentation also work. For instance, quinoa or amaranth water.

I'll be back on Sunday.

theta sigma schrieb:

> At 05:04 PM 3/27/2002 -0700, you wrote:

> >I buy eggs from the health food store that are organic, cage-free (not

> >free-range) and fed with flax, etc, for high-omega-3 eggs. But for

> >feeding babies, I'm thinking they ought to be truly free-range and

> >organic. Am I being overly cautious?

>

> A prudent course to take - caution is good. You might search for fertile

> eggs - there is some component that interferes slightly with proper

> digestion (or assimilation) of the egg if it is sterile. Also, you are

> right that free-range and organic is much better. Chickens are omnivorous

> and need to eat insects, small animals, grass, bugs that eat grass, seeds,

> etc., to thrive and produce the best eggs possible. Eggs, as you described

> them above, might be from chickens fed with grain and supplements alone -

> not a very balanced diet for an omnivore. With an vegetarian diet the

> chickens and eggs will not be as healthy as they might be. That is why the

> flax is added - to help balance out the Omega-3 and Omega-6 ratio.

>

> We need a balance of Omega-3 to Omega-6 fatty acids in our diet - similar

> to that found in nature-fed animals. The prevailing " wisdom " indicates

> approximately a 2:1 Omega-6 to Omega-3 ratio and no higher than about

> 4:1. A cursory check on the Internet showed me some flax-fed chicken eggs

> with a ratio about 1.75:1 - not too bad and very close to the (probable)

> ratio in the free-range eggs I use (about 2:1). Conventional, commercial

> eggs have somewhere in the neighborhood of a 20:1 ratio.

>

> An interesting side note - I get fertile, organic, free-range eggs and when

> I open any and all of these wonderfully fresh eggs it smells to me very

> similar to fish (other eggs I've tried do not have this smell). I wish I

> knew why this is so. Perhaps it is the fatty acids ratio that is responsible?

>

> Regards,

>

> -=mark=-

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

As you are in a northern clime, do the chickens require a wooden shed or

somewhere they can nestle to warm themselves?

Heidi Schuppenhauer schrieb:

> >

> >I buy eggs from the health food store that are organic, cage-free (not

> >free-range) and fed with flax, etc, for high-omega-3 eggs. But for

> >feeding babies, I'm thinking they ought to be truly free-range and

> >organic. Am I being overly cautious? So far I haven't been able to

> >acquire eggs or milk from a farmer I know personally where I can see the

> >chickens and cows. :-(

[Guest guest]

> Chickens are omnivorous

>and need to eat insects, small animals, grass, bugs that eat grass, seeds,

>etc., to thrive and produce the best eggs possible. Eggs, as you described

>them above, might be from chickens fed with grain and supplements alone -

>not a very balanced diet for an omnivore. With an vegetarian diet the

>chickens and eggs will not be as healthy as they might be. That is why the

>flax is added - to help balance out the Omega-3 and Omega-6 ratio.

The wrappers of the chickens at the local health food emporia brag

that the chickens have been fed a vegetarian diet. Yeah, I'm

impressed...NOT.

[Guest guest]

Mark wrote:

> An interesting side note - I get fertile, organic, free-range

> eggs and when I open any and all of these wonderfully fresh

> eggs it smells to me very similar to fish (other eggs I've

> tried do not have this smell). I wish I knew why this is so.

> Perhaps it is the fatty acids ratio that is responsible?

I wonder if the farmer is augmenting the chickens' diet with fish meal?

Eggs and milk are both flavor and odor sponges; they change fairly easily

with the diet of the animal. Fish meal is a common supplement to use with

chickens because it supplies much needed protein, omega 3 fats, and

minerals. That is a fairly likely source of the fishy odor...

[Guest guest]

>>>The wrappers of the chickens at the local health food emporia brag

that the chickens have been fed a vegetarian diet. Yeah, I'm

impressed...NOT.

***I've seen that before, too. But I think they mean that there's no animal

by-products in the feed. Not necessarily that the chickens never peck at

bugs and things. With worries over BSE, it's more common now to see that

claim. I could be wrong - maybe they DID mean the birds consume absolutely

no animals or insects. But if the birds are truly free ranging, that would

be nearly impossible.

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

No Suze, we went to my Dad's a few months ago (which is always a

dietary NIGHTMARE) and he and his wife were trying so hard it was

really sweet but the nightmare just continued as they went out of

their way to buy us " vegetarian " eggs they were oh so proud of

themselves. These eggs according to the label were from chickens that

were fed " exclusively grains " I don't know how they can verify not a

single chicken ate a single bug but nonetheless this is what they

claim. It is a strange world we live in :-o

Sincerely,

Doc Mike

> >>>The wrappers of the chickens at the local health food emporia brag

> that the chickens have been fed a vegetarian diet. Yeah, I'm

> impressed...NOT.

>

> ***I've seen that before, too. But I think they mean that there's no

animal

> by-products in the feed. Not necessarily that the chickens never peck at

> bugs and things. With worries over BSE, it's more common now to see that

> claim. I could be wrong - maybe they DID mean the birds consume

absolutely

> no animals or insects. But if the birds are truly free ranging, that

would

> be nearly impossible.

>

> Suze Fisher

> Web Design & Development

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

> mailto:s.fisher22@v...

[Guest guest]

The first year I made them a nice chicken shed with a light because I felt

sorry for them. But the next year they perched on TOP of the shed in the

snow. (Snow covered chickens! What a sight!). So I don't feel sorry for

them any more. The older hens will stop laying in winter though, if you

don't give them a light in the shed.

They really should be able to keep themselves dry though, so I have the

chicken shed on stilts and they stay under it when it's really rainy. They

don't like to be in the shed during the day, for some reason. But the cold

doesn't seem to bother them much. They like to be up high: if I was more of

a carpenter I'd make a walk-in shed with perches about chest-high and

nesting boxes. Also you have to protect them from wandering dogs, so they

need a fenced-in area or to be caged at night. They can fend off the

average cat once they are full grown (our cat is afraid of them).

BTW my eggs don't smell like fish at all. I vote for the fish meal

hypothesis. Of course they get a lot of worms, I don't know what worms

smell like per se though. ;-)

-- Heidi

At 09:58 AM 3/28/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>Heidi,

>

>As you are in a northern clime, do the chickens require a wooden shed or

>somewhere they can nestle to warm themselves?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>BTW my eggs don't smell like fish at all. I vote for the fish meal

>hypothesis. Of course they get a lot of worms, I don't know what worms

>smell like per se though

Interesting! What do your chickens eat besides worms and grubs they dig up

themselves?

-

[Guest guest]

I really doubt most of the " Cage-free " eggs are free range. It's really

difficult to have a true free-range chicken commercially: they lay their

eggs all over the place if they are really free, and if they are in a

confined area they eat all the grass very quickly, plus they get full of

mud, which would probably not please the food inspectors. And they can and

do eat poisonous plants and get eaten by free-range dogs and hawks. Most

cage-free chickens I've seen are in concrete enclosures or greenhouses,

which is still a lot better than crammed 20 to a cage, and they probably

don't get many bugs.

There are some farmers who are keeping them in movable wire enclosures on

large pastures, but I don't know that it's done on a large scale at this

point. On the other hand, if you have a fenced yard or are in the country,

having a few chickens running around isn't really a problem, if you aren't

trying to make a profit off them. My mother lives in central Los Angeles,

and a hen-chick (probably the offspring of an illegal fighting cock

operation down the street) made it's home in her yard and is quite happily

nesting there. It's a lot less noticable to the neighbors than the average dog.

Or maybe bugs just don't count in the vegetarian scheme as " animals " . My

chickens eat some grain, and leftovers, but they prefer greens, esp.

freshly pulled weeds (they like to eat the roots and the bugs on the roots).

-- Heidi

At 05:52 PM 3/28/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>No Suze, we went to my Dad's a few months ago (which is always a

>dietary NIGHTMARE) and he and his wife were trying so hard it was

>really sweet but the nightmare just continued as they went out of

>their way to buy us " vegetarian " eggs they were oh so proud of

>themselves. These eggs according to the label were from chickens that

>were fed " exclusively grains " I don't know how they can verify not a

>single chicken ate a single bug but nonetheless this is what they

>claim. It is a strange world we live in :-o

>

>Sincerely,

>Doc Mike

>

[Guest guest]

:

Well, you have to understand that I originally got them for 'garbage

chickens', and the eggs just kind of got us hooked on fresh eggs after the

fact. This is because I don't have a garbage disposal and Dale hauls our

garbage to the dump every few months, and you can't compost grains in an

open bin or you get rats. Food was making the garbage rather ripe, and

someone told me chickens would eat a lot of the leftovers. So first and

foremost, they get the scraps that are grain or green based, and some meat

(the big meat leftovers go to the dog). Then they get chicken pellets

(vitamins and minerals, I figure, plus I don't always have leftovers) and

oyster shell and sometimes cracked corn. They dig for worms, plus I give

them some out of the worm bin when I feel like it, and sometimes alfalfa

(we have goats too). They get all the weeds when I garden (which is a lot

easier than composting them, though we have a compost bin too) and they eat

them all, esp. the roots. And I let them out into the yard daily when the

rhubarb isn't growing, but we need to fence in the rhubarb and haven't had

time yet (I lost two hens the day the rhubarb popped up!). When they are in

the yard, they prefer areas where there is bare dirt, to dig for bugs I

imagine, but they eat lots of grass too.

Obviously I can't use poisons on the yard, doing this. I have to admit

though that though people DO keep chickens in the city, we are not in the

city ourselves, we moved to the boonies so we could have employees working

from our home (zoning issues: we are about 40 miles north of Seattle). So I

don't have to worry too much whether the neighbors care about dandelions in

our yard or the occasional chicken poop on our driveway. The 'city

chickens' are kept, according to what I've heard, in movable pens or coops

or in a cage with something to scratch in, or let out into a fenced yard (a

dog kennel would do nicely for a couple of chickens, I think).

-- Heidi

At 02:37 PM 3/28/2002 -0500, you wrote:

>Heidi-

>

> >BTW my eggs don't smell like fish at all. I vote for the fish meal

> >hypothesis. Of course they get a lot of worms, I don't know what worms

> >smell like per se though

>

>Interesting! What do your chickens eat besides worms and grubs they dig up

>themselves?

>

>

>

>

>-

>

>

[Guest guest]

>> I know not everyone can do it, but in some cities now you can keep a

chicken or two (not a rooster though) in your yard: <<

How much space do a couple of chickens need? Do they scratch and catch

enough on their own or need supplemental feed? And how many eggs will

they lay?

>> Carma, how old is your baby? I breastfed my third and forth

>> exclusively for more than a year, and they were quite well-fed

>> looking. <<

He will be 6 months on April 2. Normally I wouldn't be supplementing at

all yet - my 1st and 2nd kids went about 8-9 months exclusively

breastfeeding, and self-weaned at age 5 and age almost-4. And I know

from " well-fed looking " - my daughter was 20lb at 4mo and 30lb at a

year, and the FATTEST thing you ever did see! At age 6, most people

think she is 8 and she is taller than every 7yo I've measured her

against. My elder son was 20lb at 6mo and 30lb at a year, but not quite

so fat; still one of those kids that everyone looks at and says, " future

linebacker! " Then I say, yeah, you shoulda seen his sister at that age!

But this little guy is really hungry! I gave him a tiny fingerful of

mashed ripe avocado and he just gobbled it up and begged for more!

Possibly because he's a less-avid nurser than his big sister and brother

were? He was my biggest baby but, despite being bigger than most babies

his age, is my slowest grower. (Gee, you mean you don't grow as fast

when you're NOT latched on 20 hours out of every 24?) So, I'm looking

for some appropriate food for him.

~ Carma ~

To be perpetually talking sense runs out the mind, as perpetually

ploughing and taking crops runs out the land. The mind must be manured,

and nonsense is very good for the purpose. ~ Boswell

Carma's Corner: http://www.users.qwest.net/~carmapaden/

[Guest guest]

> >> I know not everyone can do it, but in some cities now you can

keep a

> chicken or two (not a rooster though) in your yard: <<

>

> How much space do a couple of chickens need? Do they scratch and

catch

> enough on their own or need supplemental feed? And how many eggs

will

> they lay?

There was a very cute article in the new york times a few months ago.

The writer had an escaped chicken show up on his back windowledge one

day so he took her in. He fed her standard chicken feed but let her

eat table scraps since she loved meat. He was appalled to find her

happily pecking away at his chicken dinner once! After a few weeks

she started laying eggs. He said they were much more flavorful and

colorful than storebought eggs. Finally he had a taste test with his

family members and included premium organic eggs and his pet

chicken's eggs won hands down (which just goes to show you how token

the word 'organic' means!)

So I guess the answer is that you don't need much space. I don't

remember what he said about housebreaking the thing. I'd imagine a

chicken would be too dumb to housebreak?

[Guest guest]

> > >> I know not everyone can do it, but in some cities now you can

> keep a

> > chicken or two (not a rooster though) in your yard: <<

> >

> > How much space do a couple of chickens need? Do they scratch and

> catch

> > enough on their own or need supplemental feed? And how many eggs

> will

> > they lay?

>

> There was a very cute article in the new york times a few months

ago.

> The writer had an escaped chicken show up on his back windowledge

one

> day so he took her in.

> So I guess the answer is that you don't need much space. I don't

> remember what he said about housebreaking the thing. I'd imagine a

> chicken would be too dumb to housebreak?

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > >> I know not everyone can do it, but in some cities now you can

> keep a

> > chicken or two (not a rooster though) in your yard: <<

> >

> > How much space do a couple of chickens need? Do they scratch and

> catch

> > enough on their own or need supplemental feed? And how many eggs

> will

> > they lay?

>

> There was a very cute article in the new york times a few months

ago.

> The writer had an escaped chicken show up on his back windowledge

one

> day so he took her in.

>

> So I guess the answer is that you don't need much space. I don't

> remember what he said about housebreaking the thing. I'd imagine a

> chicken would be too dumb to housebreak?

>

>

>>>>>Sorry about the last no message post. By the time I snipped what

I wanted I thought it was time to send. OK here's the message. If I

remember correctly the chicken has no control of defecation so

training to many people standards is impossible. Please don't give me

an OT I didn't bring this up. The article is interesting .

Dennis Kemnitz

[Guest guest]

>

>There was a very cute article in the new york times a few months ago.

A first hand chicken story..

About 15 years ago I lived in the Mission District of San Francisco,

Spanish was the most common language in that part of the City, if you

get my drift of the population make up. We were a commercial building

butted up against some typical apartments for the neighborhood, tiny

back yards, falling down wooden fences. Our own spot was cyclone

fenced with a large gate to close off the ample parking lot.

One weekend we returned to the sound of cockadoodledoo, we weren't

sure if we had made a turn into the twilight zone or.....

The next morning, there were half a dozen or so chickens pecking about

our parking lot, now we really were taken back. My wife, having only

seen chicken at the State Fair took all that knowledge and tried to

herd the chickens into our shop, where we planned to safely keep them

until the rightful owners claimed them later in the day. Herding

Chickens,,,can you imagine how silly she looked, I nearly laughed my

self sick, but she doesn't want suggestions until she gives up. When

that time came, I produced a package of frozen corn and made a trail

into the shop, right into the mail cart we expected to keep them in

that day. Most of them marched right in, and were captured when we

turned it on it feet again, The others were easy to catch as they

pecked at corn left for them. This was quite an adventure!

Along about 4 pm there is a knock on the door... not the neighbor, but

an animal control officer, complete with night stick and uniform. " I

understand you are keeping chickens here " said she.

" I don't got to show you no stinking chickens " I replied (really I

did!)

Straight faced she proceed to cite the animal code and how much

trouble I was going to be in if she found any chicke.s (cockadoodle

doo in the background) Oops the jig was up :-)

I explained what had happened and who we thought belonged to the

chickens and she took it from there. Our neighbor had a 6 year old son

who wanted a pet. They had visited some friends in the country who

raised chickens and the little fellow convinced them to give him some

birds. All he had to keep them in was a box, and they were smart

enough to get out of that .

Happy ending. The animal control officer traded the boy a puppy for

his chicken, and they went home with her to live on her ranch in the

country, promising they would live a happy life

Mike

[Guest guest]

> So I guess the answer is that you don't need much space. I don't

> remember what he said about housebreaking the thing. I'd imagine a

> chicken would be too dumb to housebreak?

Ease of housebreaking can be inversely proportionate to intelligence. It

has more to do with habituation than it does with true learning. Rabbits,

for example, are supposedly easy to train to use a litterbox. I doubt

rabbits are particularly cerebral. Of course, I don't have any idea whether

it actually *is* possible or not with a chicken, but I wouldn't assume based

only on their intelligence... Also, I don't think the heirloom breeds are

nearly as empty-headed as the freak of non-nature hybrid chickens are.

[Guest guest]

At 04:58 PM 3/28/2002 -0700, you wrote:

> >> I know not everyone can do it, but in some cities now you can keep a

>chicken or two (not a rooster though) in your yard: <<

>

>How much space do a couple of chickens need? Do they scratch and catch

>enough on their own or need supplemental feed? And how many eggs will

>they lay?

There are SOOO many ways to keep chickens I just can't go into them all,

nor am I an expert! There are lots of books, some specifically geared to

city folks, or you can contact your local extension. In the past most

families had a few chickens, as is the case in, say Mexico where they are

running around all the time. If you don't lock them in at night you can

lose some to hawks and dogs: if you let them run around during the day you

will lose some, but traditionally they ran around anyway. The best methods

I've seen involve movable cages over grass, but most people actually keep

them in big covered cages (mine were in a dog kennel for a long time: when

I was a kid we kept them in a rabbit hutch). They should have a " chicken

house " to roost in at night, but they won't necessarily use it (they are

more likely to if you raise the chicks in the house). A tool-shed works,

ours is just like a big dog-house with a perch but I don't like it much.

The hawks around here aren't big enough for a full-grown chicken, we've

been lucky.

Commercially they are CRAMMED into a tiny space so they can barely move,

which I think is cruel. They don't need a huge amount of space though. I'm

not sure what is " ideal " . Like I said earlier, true 'free range' is not

easy nor does it lead to long-lived birds: an aviary-like arrangement is

probably ideal, esp. if you can have a couple of pens and alternate between

them so they don't kill the grass, but few people can or will put that much

resource into chickens: I say, if you want eggs, do what you have the

resources to do, and improve as you go along. Anything you do will be

better than what the commercial chickens get! I think most city chickens

are kept in pens of some sort or another, though my Mom's hen runs around

her fenced yard and does fine.

A good hen lays about 200 eggs a year, I think, but only for the first

year, then it tapers off. So it's about an egg every other day.

It's interesting that we've lost so much of our past so quickly. When I

asked my Mom how to keep a chicken she just laughed, like I'd asked her how

to tie my shoes.

-- Heidi