Re: cow's milk vs. human milk

[Guest guest]

--snip--

> So, do you think that too much reliance on cow's milk (as opposed to

> mother's milk) in growing infants might hinder brain development?

Thoughts

> on any of this?

>

> Suze Fisher

Hi Suze,

Yes, unless supplementation with fish oils (for DHA and EPA) is

applied. Pond, in your citation, doesn't mention why this is not

sufficient. Feeding cows weird rations to increase long chain PUFA's

seems like we are going further in the wrong direction. We might end

up developing a more intelligent cow (by providing protected long

PUFA's which are needed for a more sophisticated nervous system) and

they might not like to be domesticated anymore, or they might come to

depend on us even more to maintain their bigger brains.

Check out the book, " The Driving Force: Food, evolution, and the

future " by Crawford and Marsh. It does an excellent job

of explaining substrate (nutrition) driven evolution, citing Darwin,

Malthus, Sattray, Price, Cleave, Budowski and a host of others,

including some about homo aquaticus. The emergence of essential fatty

acids and their effect on the develpment of the kingdoms and phyla are

explained. Fascinating stuff! Unfortunately, it was published in '89

so is milguided in its urging to adopt a high PUFA los SFA diet (next

to last chapter I think). Well worth the read.

Portland, OR

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>It would certainly be

>important to know the diet of the person whose milk is profiled.

In fact, without knowing what the mothers he based his notion that human

milk is lowfat were eating, I have to at least provisionally assume he's

wrong. I've heard descriptions of human milk that range from " extremely

rich and fatty " to " very thin and sweet, like sweetened skim milk " . I

don't believe that those variations are due to genetic variation within the

species, but to diet.

Now, it's possible that the milk of healthy human women is richer in DHA

and EPA than cow's milk (which would be a good reason that SF recommends

using some CLO when adequate breast milk isn't available) but any

conclusion founded on the idea that human milk is supposed to be lean are

suspect. Similarly, I'm suspicious of his explanation of the mechanism

responsible for very fat babies. It's definitely all interesting, but I'd

say I'm close to 100% certain that he's wrong about the (ideal, proper) fat

content of human milk.

-

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Me:

>>>>It would certainly be

>important to know the diet of the person whose milk is profiled.

P:

In fact, without knowing what the mothers he based his notion that human

milk is lowfat were eating, I have to at least provisionally assume he's

wrong. I've heard descriptions of human milk that range from " extremely

rich and fatty " to " very thin and sweet, like sweetened skim milk " . I

don't believe that those variations are due to genetic variation within the

species, but to diet.

***Since we don't have the microbial capacity to desaturate longer chain

fatty acids in the way that ruminants do then I'd have to think you're

right - that the variation is a reflection of diet.

>>>>Now, it's possible that the milk of healthy human women is richer in DHA

and EPA than cow's milk (which would be a good reason that SF recommends

using some CLO when adequate breast milk isn't available) but any

conclusion founded on the idea that human milk is supposed to be lean are

suspect.

***I'm not sure that Pond was asserting that human milk is *supposed to be*

lowfat, but it would seem that the samples she's referencing were. In

regards to PUFA content, certainly it would seem that our larger brains

would have different DHA needs than a developing calf. Also the lifestyle

differences mentioned between human infants and calves/fawns makes sense to

me in that it would effect their lipid needs of the different neonates.

>>>>Similarly, I'm suspicious of his explanation of the mechanism

responsible for very fat babies. It's definitely all interesting, but I'd

say I'm close to 100% certain that he's wrong about the (ideal, proper) fat

content of human milk.

***I don't think she was making any assertions about what's *ideal,* as I

mentioned, just using the data at hand, as far as I can tell. But of course

without knowing the diet of the women whose milk she was referencing, then

it's hard to draw any conclusions.

Personally, I haven't paid much attention to human milk issues since I'm a

caretaker of canines, not humans, but I certainly agree with the logic that

human milk is optimal nutrition for human babies. While Pond's info may be

incomplete, or even erroneous in some areas, I would nonetheless imagine

that ruminant milk is specifically designed for the needs of ruminant

neonates and so may not provide the specific lipid/protein/enzyme

combination appropriate for human babies.

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

At 03:35 AM 4/8/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>In fact, without knowing what the mothers he based his notion that human

>milk is lowfat were eating, I have to at least provisionally assume he's

>wrong. I've heard descriptions of human milk that range from " extremely

>rich and fatty " to " very thin and sweet, like sweetened skim milk " . I

>don't believe that those variations are due to genetic variation within the

>species, but to diet.

All the " breast fed " babies I've seen are really big and quite fat! And

healthy. I don't think they would get that way on low-fat milk! Human milk

may be lower fat than some milks, but it's got plenty, I think. I think

babies are supposed to be pretty fat: if you don't have central heating,

keeping a baby warm is a priority. Then there is the " homo aquaticus " theory.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

While I have no doubt that mothers with different nutritional inputs have

different milk, I can't help but wonder if these researchers knew the difference

between foremilk and hindmilk. Foremilk is pretty watery, to satisfy the babies

thirst, and hindmilk is thick and full of fat, to satisy the babies hunger. If

they didn't get the same amount of both of these each time they tested, one

would be thinner than another. Just something that has me curious.

rochester@...

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[Guest guest]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:15:23 -0700 " Carma Paden " <carmapaden@...>

writes:

>> Don't know about numbers, but I know women who can make butter from

>> their expressed milk!

>> *** Does this mean we can enjoy the benefits of human milk throughout

>> our adult life? :-)

Hmmm, how much would you be willing to pay for specialty butter? I

figure, I've been lactating nonstop for over 6 years now; might as well

make some money off it, eh? ;-)

****Seriously, women who make butter from their expressed milk, how do

they use it? put it on toast for their children?

Bianca

[Guest guest]

****Seriously, women who make butter from their expressed milk, how do

they use it? put it on toast for their children?

<g> No, I haven't heard of anyone *deliberately* making butter. But I've

heard a couple of women say that they fill a bottle with EBM and then,

when they get to where they're going, they bring it out and find that

butter curds have formed from the agitation. (Usually if they're

walking; car rides don't provide the necessary jiggling of the bottle.)

~ Carma ~

To be perpetually talking sense runs out the mind, as perpetually

ploughing and taking crops runs out the land. The mind must be manured,

and nonsense is very good for the purpose. ~ Boswell

Carma's Corner: http://www.users.qwest.net/~carmapaden/

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " Carma Paden " <carmapaden@...>

< >

Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 5:54 PM

Subject: RE: cow's milk vs. human milk

> ****Seriously, women who make butter from their expressed milk, how do

> they use it? put it on toast for their children?

>

> <g> No, I haven't heard of anyone *deliberately* making butter. But I've

> heard a couple of women say that they fill a bottle with EBM and then,

> when they get to where they're going, they bring it out and find that

> butter curds have formed from the agitation. (Usually if they're

> walking; car rides don't provide the necessary jiggling of the bottle.)

Will jumping up and down cause butter to form in vivo?