Guest guest Posted April 5, 2002 Report Share Posted April 5, 2002 In a message dated 4/5/02 3:32:19 PM Central Standard Time, clearvu@... writes: > Dear Belinda > > Welcome to the club!! > Have you ever considered selling your cows to the people who want your milk > or > set up your farm as a Co/op with a sunset cause which would allow people > for a > year to own your farm and reap the beneifits of its production? > Need more help look us up at milkdirect .com > Tim > Thanks Tim, I will look you up. I think the thing that is more upsetting than the milk is the fact that I can no longer teach people how to make cheese or butter or yogurt... that just astounds me! Belinda LaBelle Acres www.labelleacres.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2002 Report Share Posted April 5, 2002 In a message dated 4/5/02 3:50:42 PM Central Standard Time, Idol@... writes: > I didn't think things had gotten quite this bad. I can't believe you can > make your own butter but you're not allowed to tell anyone! Believe it! Go to our web site and see where we had to take out the words cheese and butter. We've not said that we are selling anything we were simply listing all the things we do on the farm. I guess it > > makes sense, in its own twisted way. Big agriculture must have been afraid > > that if people started teaching other people who to make their own butter > and cheese they'd stop buying Kraft and whatnot. That's what it is, WalMart and the rest of the big bucks rule the world. > > Good luck with this mess. > > THanks, I'm going to need more than luck. <G> Belinda LaBelle Acres www.labelleacres.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2002 Report Share Posted April 5, 2002 In a message dated 4/5/02 4:20:14 PM Central Standard Time, panamabob@... writes: > Did you ever hear not to assume malice when stupidity will do? > > You give your legislators TOO much credit. A few may have their best > interest at heart, but over all I like to think they are > trying...(misguided sometimes by lobbyist). > > If what you say is true then the battle is over. After all, big business > that can bring the readers digest and Disney to sell you out will be able > to squash what ever tactic you want to use. Whats the use? Consider > yourself lucky the ATF havent burned you out! > > If however, its not that for gone a conclusion, then count on me to sigh > your petition (I still have TN drivers lic) > > Of course you could always just chuck it and move over seas with me and > mine where its not an issue :-) To be perfectly honest we talked about moving last night but we like it here. And there is something about moving 100 goats.... www.legislature.state.tn.us will give you all the legislature in TN. If you could write a letter and send it to them all it would be great. Even folks out of state, write them, bug them, help me make noise. Thanks so much for your help. Belinda LaBelle Acres www.labelleacres.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2002 Report Share Posted April 5, 2002 In a message dated 4/5/02 4:36:43 PM Central Standard Time, Idol@... writes: > You know what, you ought to consult with a lawyer. This sounds like a > MAJOR first amendment violation, and I bet you could get that statute > stricken from the books. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me there's > simply no way it's constitutional to prevent you from telling people what > you do for yourself on your own farm. > > > > > - > > > , At this point we don't have the money to walk into a lawyer's office. I think this might be a case of gov't going a little nuts. Either that or somebody needs some reading comprehension classes. <G> Seriously tho, I have contacted the ACLU. Belinda LaBelle Acres www.labelleacres.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2002 Report Share Posted April 5, 2002 In a message dated 4/5/02 5:10:26 PM Central Standard Time, panamabob@... writes: > Roll out is at Summers end so you have some time to get affairs in order if > your interested. > > whacha wanna do? > > bob > I'll stay and see what I can do. Belinda LaBelle Acres www.labelleacres.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2002 Report Share Posted April 5, 2002 I understand your anger. Pretty much the same deal in Florida. You have to understand that the Government does things in an attempt to help improve things. Somewhere in the past someone got hurt from unpasturized milk, etc. A law was then passed, The Law may not even have started in Tenn or Florida, but legislaters hearing of what seemed like a good law would adopt it so they would appear " like hicks " . What needs to be done is a new study on the dangers of milk; pasturized, un pasturized, grain fed, grass fed etc. Im sure you can imagine the hassels that will be for the status quo. You may even shake the foundations of germ theory and health...which would be really hard sell since " everyone knows " that germs exist. Many will think you are stupid for going against such a basic " rule " . A hard fight at best, impossible at worst. Start with petitions and perhaps UT could do some studies to help. Good luck. bob SLF ----- Original Message ----- From: bilherbs@... Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 3:02 PM Subject: Tennessee milk blues On April 2nd, 2002 we were visited by Hugh and Nell s from the Tennessee Department of Agriculture because of our web site. On our site, in the description of what we do on our farm, we mentioned that we make our own cheese and butter. We found out that, in the State of Tennessee, this is illegal. Seems strange doesn't it? Now, you might think that the making of the cheese and butter is illegal but in actuality we are allowed to make and consume our own homemade goods. What we are not allowed to do is tell you that we do it or teach you how to make our own. This has nothing to do with selling products off the farm. It seems one is not allowed to have people watching while you make cheese. Think this is ridiculous? Read on! The State of Tennessee considers milk, to be a hazardous material and does not allow you to give away milk from your farm? Did you know that you cannot legally give your neighbors' milk for their orphaned animals? Think this is insane? We do. There is a part of me that will just always want to brave arrest to save an orphaned baby of any sort. How am I to look another farmer in the eye and tell them to let their animal die? Have our state legislators lost their minds? Do they even know what laws have been passed? Are these laws really on the books or do we just have some very eager officials out there making the small farmer suffer in any way they can? If the woman from across the street comes by to get a cup of milk I have to tell her no because I milked it rather than bought it at Stop and Shop. Will tomatoes out of the garden be next? You scared? I'm scared. You mad? I'm mad. Want to help, drop me an email. Better yet, write to TN legislators < www.legislature.state.tn.us> Let them know what you think about this. For more information, check out our web site. Belinda LaBelle Acres www.labelleacres.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2002 Report Share Posted April 5, 2002 Dear Belinda Welcome to the club!! Have you ever considered selling your cows to the people who want your milk or set up your farm as a Co/op with a sunset cause which would allow people for a year to own your farm and reap the beneifits of its production? Need more help look us up at milkdirect .com Tim bilherbs@... wrote: > On April 2nd, 2002 we were visited by Hugh and Nell s from the > Tennessee Department of Agriculture because of our web site. On our site, in > the description of what we do on our farm, we mentioned that we make our own > cheese and butter. We found out that, in the State of Tennessee, this is > illegal. Seems strange doesn't it? Now, you might think that the making of > the cheese and butter is illegal but in actuality we are allowed to make and > consume our own homemade goods. What we are not allowed to do is tell you > that we do it or teach you how to make our own. This has nothing to do with > selling products off the farm. It seems one is not allowed to have people > watching while you make cheese. Think this is ridiculous? Read on! > > The State of Tennessee considers milk, to be a hazardous material and does > not allow you to give away milk from your farm? Did you know that you cannot > legally give your neighbors' milk for their orphaned animals? Think this is > insane? We do. There is a part of me that will just always want to brave > arrest to save an orphaned baby of any sort. How am I to look another farmer > in the eye and tell them to let their animal die? Have our state legislators > lost their minds? Do they even know what laws have been passed? Are these > laws really on the books or do we just have some very eager officials out > there making the small farmer suffer in any way they can? If the woman from > across the street comes by to get a cup of milk I have to tell her no because > I milked it rather than bought it at Stop and Shop. Will tomatoes out of the > garden be next? > > You scared? I'm scared. > > You mad? I'm mad. > > Want to help, drop me an email. Better yet, write to TN legislators < > www.legislature.state.tn.us> Let them know what you think about this. For > more information, check out our web site. > > Belinda > LaBelle Acres > www.labelleacres.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2002 Report Share Posted April 5, 2002 Nice theory Bob But!!! Ever see the bumper sticker " thou shalt not steal, government doesn't like the competition " Well " don't sell your food products direct, Big business doesn't like the competition " Its nice to think that the government and those in powere have our best interest at heart even though it may be misguided. trust me that is the last thing on their mind, and if readers digest and Disney was employed in the late forties early fifties to run an smear campaign against farm fresh milk just how nieve do you think our legislators are? Tim panamabob wrote: > I understand your anger. Pretty much the same deal in Florida. > > You have to understand that the Government does things in an attempt to help improve things. Somewhere in the past someone got hurt from unpasturized milk, etc. A law was then passed, The Law may not even have started in Tenn or Florida, but legislaters hearing of what seemed like a good law would adopt it so they would appear " like hicks " . > > What needs to be done is a new study on the dangers of milk; pasturized, un pasturized, grain fed, grass fed etc. > Im sure you can imagine the hassels that will be for the status quo. You may even shake the foundations of germ theory and health...which would be really hard sell since " everyone knows " that germs exist. Many will think you are stupid for going against such a basic " rule " . A hard fight at best, impossible at worst. > > Start with petitions and perhaps UT could do some studies to help. > > Good luck. > > bob > SLF > ----- Original Message ----- > From: bilherbs@... > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 3:02 PM > Subject: Tennessee milk blues > > On April 2nd, 2002 we were visited by Hugh and Nell s from the > Tennessee Department of Agriculture because of our web site. On our site, in > the description of what we do on our farm, we mentioned that we make our own > cheese and butter. We found out that, in the State of Tennessee, this is > illegal. Seems strange doesn't it? Now, you might think that the making of > the cheese and butter is illegal but in actuality we are allowed to make and > consume our own homemade goods. What we are not allowed to do is tell you > that we do it or teach you how to make our own. This has nothing to do with > selling products off the farm. It seems one is not allowed to have people > watching while you make cheese. Think this is ridiculous? Read on! > > The State of Tennessee considers milk, to be a hazardous material and does > not allow you to give away milk from your farm? Did you know that you cannot > legally give your neighbors' milk for their orphaned animals? Think this is > insane? We do. There is a part of me that will just always want to brave > arrest to save an orphaned baby of any sort. How am I to look another farmer > in the eye and tell them to let their animal die? Have our state legislators > lost their minds? Do they even know what laws have been passed? Are these > laws really on the books or do we just have some very eager officials out > there making the small farmer suffer in any way they can? If the woman from > across the street comes by to get a cup of milk I have to tell her no because > I milked it rather than bought it at Stop and Shop. Will tomatoes out of the > garden be next? > > You scared? I'm scared. > > You mad? I'm mad. > > Want to help, drop me an email. Better yet, write to TN legislators < > www.legislature.state.tn.us> Let them know what you think about this. For > more information, check out our web site. > > Belinda > LaBelle Acres > www.labelleacres.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2002 Report Share Posted April 5, 2002 Belinda- >What we are not allowed to do is tell you >that we do it or teach you how to make our own. This has nothing to do with >selling products off the farm. It seems one is not allowed to have people >watching while you make cheese. Think this is ridiculous? Read on! I didn't think things had gotten quite this bad. I can't believe you can make your own butter but you're not allowed to tell anyone! I guess it makes sense, in its own twisted way. Big agriculture must have been afraid that if people started teaching other people who to make their own butter and cheese they'd stop buying Kraft and whatnot. Good luck with this mess. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2002 Report Share Posted April 5, 2002 Did you ever hear not to assume malice when stupidity will do? You give your legislators TOO much credit. A few may have their best interest at heart, but over all I like to think they are trying...(misguided sometimes by lobbyist). If what you say is true then the battle is over. After all, big business that can bring the readers digest and Disney to sell you out will be able to squash what ever tactic you want to use. Whats the use? Consider yourself lucky the ATF havent burned you out! If however, its not that for gone a conclusion, then count on me to sigh your petition (I still have TN drivers lic) Of course you could always just chuck it and move over seas with me and mine where its not an issue :-) www.SouthernLatitudes.org bob Souther Latitudes Foundation ----- Original Message ----- From: Clearview Acres Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 4:33 PM Subject: Re: Tennessee milk blues Nice theory Bob But!!! Ever see the bumper sticker " thou shalt not steal, government doesn't like the competition " Well " don't sell your food products direct, Big business doesn't like the competition " Its nice to think that the government and those in powere have our best interest at heart even though it may be misguided. trust me that is the last thing on their mind, and if readers digest and Disney was employed in the late forties early fifties to run an smear campaign against farm fresh milk just how nieve do you think our legislators are? Tim panamabob wrote: > I understand your anger. Pretty much the same deal in Florida. > > You have to understand that the Government does things in an attempt to help improve things. Somewhere in the past someone got hurt from unpasturized milk, etc. A law was then passed, The Law may not even have started in Tenn or Florida, but legislaters hearing of what seemed like a good law would adopt it so they would appear " like hicks " . > > What needs to be done is a new study on the dangers of milk; pasturized, un pasturized, grain fed, grass fed etc. > Im sure you can imagine the hassels that will be for the status quo. You may even shake the foundations of germ theory and health...which would be really hard sell since " everyone knows " that germs exist. Many will think you are stupid for going against such a basic " rule " . A hard fight at best, impossible at worst. > > Start with petitions and perhaps UT could do some studies to help. > > Good luck. > > bob > SLF > ----- Original Message ----- > From: bilherbs@... > > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 3:02 PM > Subject: Tennessee milk blues > > On April 2nd, 2002 we were visited by Hugh and Nell s from the > Tennessee Department of Agriculture because of our web site. On our site, in > the description of what we do on our farm, we mentioned that we make our own > cheese and butter. We found out that, in the State of Tennessee, this is > illegal. Seems strange doesn't it? Now, you might think that the making of > the cheese and butter is illegal but in actuality we are allowed to make and > consume our own homemade goods. What we are not allowed to do is tell you > that we do it or teach you how to make our own. This has nothing to do with > selling products off the farm. It seems one is not allowed to have people > watching while you make cheese. Think this is ridiculous? Read on! > > The State of Tennessee considers milk, to be a hazardous material and does > not allow you to give away milk from your farm? Did you know that you cannot > legally give your neighbors' milk for their orphaned animals? Think this is > insane? We do. There is a part of me that will just always want to brave > arrest to save an orphaned baby of any sort. How am I to look another farmer > in the eye and tell them to let their animal die? Have our state legislators > lost their minds? Do they even know what laws have been passed? Are these > laws really on the books or do we just have some very eager officials out > there making the small farmer suffer in any way they can? If the woman from > across the street comes by to get a cup of milk I have to tell her no because > I milked it rather than bought it at Stop and Shop. Will tomatoes out of the > garden be next? > > You scared? I'm scared. > > You mad? I'm mad. > > Want to help, drop me an email. Better yet, write to TN legislators < > www.legislature.state.tn.us> Let them know what you think about this. For > more information, check out our web site. > > Belinda > LaBelle Acres > www.labelleacres.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2002 Report Share Posted April 5, 2002 Belinda- >Believe it! Go to our web site and see where we had to take out the words >cheese and butter. We've not said that we are selling anything we were simply >listing all the things we do on the farm. You know what, you ought to consult with a lawyer. This sounds like a MAJOR first amendment violation, and I bet you could get that statute stricken from the books. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me there's simply no way it's constitutional to prevent you from telling people what you do for yourself on your own farm. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2002 Report Share Posted April 5, 2002 Yes, its called BBQ :-) with the BBQ money you pay for your move and $1,000 documents fee for immigration. SLF will then set you up in new organic, natural style milk business, get you a 2000 sq ft custom home, school for your kids, oops, I mean CHILDREN :-) , provide medical / wellness (allopathic / homeopathic), free utilities, groceries, entertainment /recreation, etc. You do best effort to provide quality artisan food products ( in your case likely to be dairy products) to community of approx 5,000 families who are generally like minded in enjoying life without too many hassles. Ill be happy to send legislator emails if you think that it will help... but if you are right, lobbyist will block your move. Roll out is at Summers end so you have some time to get affairs in order if your interested. whacha wanna do? bob SLF ----- Original Message ----- From: bilherbs@... Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 5:32 PM Subject: Re: Tennessee milk blues In a message dated 4/5/02 4:20:14 PM Central Standard Time, panamabob@... writes: > Did you ever hear not to assume malice when stupidity will do? > > You give your legislators TOO much credit. A few may have their best > interest at heart, but over all I like to think they are > trying...(misguided sometimes by lobbyist). > > If what you say is true then the battle is over. After all, big business > that can bring the readers digest and Disney to sell you out will be able > to squash what ever tactic you want to use. Whats the use? Consider > yourself lucky the ATF havent burned you out! > > If however, its not that for gone a conclusion, then count on me to sigh > your petition (I still have TN drivers lic) > > Of course you could always just chuck it and move over seas with me and > mine where its not an issue :-) To be perfectly honest we talked about moving last night but we like it here. And there is something about moving 100 goats.... www.legislature.state.tn.us will give you all the legislature in TN. If you could write a letter and send it to them all it would be great. Even folks out of state, write them, bug them, help me make noise. Thanks so much for your help. Belinda LaBelle Acres www.labelleacres.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2002 Report Share Posted April 5, 2002 > > Some of message snipped>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Of course you could always just chuck it and move over seas with me and mine where its not an issue :-) > > www.SouthernLatitudes.org > > bob > Souther Latitudes Foundation > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Clearview Acres > @y... > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 4:33 PM > Subject: Re: Tennessee milk blues > > > Nice theory Bob > But!!! > Ever see the bumper sticker " thou shalt not steal, government doesn't like the competition " > ,,,,,Snipped>>>>>>>>>>. bob,Move where overseas? Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2002 Report Share Posted April 5, 2002 Belinda- >At this point we don't have the money to walk into a lawyer's office. I think >this might be a case of gov't going a little nuts. Either that or somebody >needs some reading comprehension classes. <G> Seriously tho, I have contacted >the ACLU. Good luck with the ACLU! Even if they can't or won't help you, though, there may well be other lawyers who will take the case for free or for very little money just because they believe in free speech. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2002 Report Share Posted April 5, 2002 good luck! a good fight is always rewarding for the soul. My fights are behind me, its time to start enjoying life and my kids. I'll send a letters in your behalf. Let me know how you do. Have faith in the general goodness of people :-) bob SLF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2002 Report Share Posted April 6, 2002 > good luck! > > a good fight is always rewarding for the soul. My fights are behind me, its time to start enjoying life and my kids. > > I'll send a letters in your behalf. Let me know how you do. > Have faith in the general goodness of people :-) > > > bob > > SLF > > >>>>>>>>>>>not to be facetious (looked a long time to find that one) or dumb but we need a singer/songwriter to pick up on this cause. And bring NT to the forefront of Americas homes. (I'm not the writer.) So long. Regards, Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 In a message dated 4/7/02 2:49:32 PM Central Daylight Time, mnoel2@... writes: > Belinda, > > What exactly is the law they're claiming makes it illegal for you to > teach people how to make butter and cheese? I was trying to find it > on Lexis-Nexis (legal research database) yesterday but didn't have any > luck. That makes no sense -- after all, it's perfectly legal to sell > books on cheese- or butter-making, AND these are legal activities, > even in Tennessee. > > Also, most lawyers will talk to you over the phone for a few minutes > to see whether or not you have a case. Maybe a law professor > specializing in constitutional law or free speech issues could give > you some advice? > > > > > The two people from the Dept of Ag came here and said that our web site had cheese and butter advertised for sale. They said we had to take the words cheese and butter out. You can check out what I did, the only changes I made is the explaination in the beginning and the words cheese and butter. I asked about doing workshops at home and they said we had to use pasteurized milk. We said we would buy milk from the store. They said " Cheese and butter must be made in an inspeced licensed facility and the milk must be pasteurized in that facility. " All I have is a kitchen, no good. I asked about doing demonstrations. The answer was the same. We have pictures of our demo from last year or the year before on the web site. There is a part of me that doesn't think the law is there for real. I think we may have a bad problem with reading comprehension and seeing as I used to teach just that I'm gonna give 'um a lesson. <EG> Belinda LaBelle Acres www.labelleacres.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2002 Report Share Posted April 7, 2002 Belinda, What exactly is the law they're claiming makes it illegal for you to teach people how to make butter and cheese? I was trying to find it on Lexis-Nexis (legal research database) yesterday but didn't have any luck. That makes no sense -- after all, it's perfectly legal to sell books on cheese- or butter-making, AND these are legal activities, even in Tennessee. Also, most lawyers will talk to you over the phone for a few minutes to see whether or not you have a case. Maybe a law professor specializing in constitutional law or free speech issues could give you some advice? > In a message dated 4/5/02 4:36:43 PM Central Standard Time, > Idol@c... writes: > > > > You know what, you ought to consult with a lawyer. This sounds like a > > MAJOR first amendment violation, and I bet you could get that statute > > stricken from the books. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me there's > > simply no way it's constitutional to prevent you from telling people what > > you do for yourself on your own farm. > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > , > > At this point we don't have the money to walk into a lawyer's office. I think > this might be a case of gov't going a little nuts. Either that or somebody > needs some reading comprehension classes. <G> Seriously tho, I have contacted > the ACLU. > > Belinda > LaBelle Acres > www.labelleacres.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2002 Report Share Posted April 8, 2002 Here are links to laws which I think they are referring to. I can't find anything that forbids you to show people how to make dairy products, or even to give them away -- all these regulations seem to apply only to selling them. (And I didn't see anything on your website that looks like an advertisement for butter or cheese.) If you haven't already, you really should demand that they tell you exactly what they're basing that on -- as in page #, section #, etc., of a particular law, so you can call them on it if they're reading stuff into the law that isn't really there. It's not their job to interpret the law, that's for a judge to do. " Regulation Governing Raw Milk for Manufacturing Purposes and Manufactured Milk Product Plants " http://www.state.tn.us/sos/rules/0080/0080-03/0080-03-03.pdf See page 33 -- raw milk cheese is legal (although it would probably be hard for a small farmer to meet all the requirements). " Regulation Governing Fluid Milk and Fluid Milk Products " http://www.state.tn.us/sos/rules/0080/0080-03/0080-03-02.pdf On page 23 it says only pasteurized milk can be sold -- nothing about giving it away. > The two people from the Dept of Ag came here and said that our web site had > cheese and butter advertised for sale. They said we had to take the words > cheese and butter out. You can check out what I did, the only changes I made > is the explaination in the beginning and the words cheese and butter. > > I asked about doing workshops at home and they said we had to use pasteurized > milk. We said we would buy milk from the store. They said " Cheese and butter > must be made in an inspeced licensed facility and the milk must be > pasteurized in that facility. " All I have is a kitchen, no good. > > I asked about doing demonstrations. The answer was the same. We have pictures > of our demo from last year or the year before on the web site. There is a > part of me that doesn't think the law is there for real. I think we may have > a bad problem with reading comprehension and seeing as I used to teach just > that I'm gonna give 'um a lesson. <EG> > > Belinda > LaBelle Acres > www.labelleacres.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2002 Report Share Posted April 11, 2002 On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:50:24 -0500 " panamabob " <panamabob@...> writes: I understand your anger. Pretty much the same deal in Florida. You have to understand that the Government does things in an attempt to help improve things. ++++++++Hmmmm......don't think I can go here with you. Somewhere in the past someone got hurt from unpasteurized milk, etc. A law was then passed, The Law may not even have started in Tenn or Florida, but legislaters hearing of what seemed like a good law would adopt it so they would appear " like hicks " . ++++++++Numerous people have been hurt by pasteurized milk, in fact many more than raw milk over the last 40 years and no one is clamoring to pass a law to ban pasteurized milk. There are many reasons political bodies pass laws, rarely is it to " help " people, although the language of compassion makes it much easier to get one's agenda implemented. What needs to be done is a new study on the dangers of milk; pasteurized, un pasturized, grain fed, grass fed etc. Im sure you can imagine the hassels that will be for the status quo. You may even shake the foundations of germ theory and health...which would be really hard sell since " everyone knows " that germs exist. Many will think you are stupid for going against such a basic " rule " . A hard fight at best, impossible at worst. *****several groups are already on the battle lines, www.realmilk.com readily comes to mind as does Aajonus Vonderplanitz' group out in California. The current popular germ theory is already being questioned and has been for some time. You might check the archives for the discussion that occurred here. If the government got out of the way then people like myself and others who enjoy and thrive on raw milk could go our merry " stupid " way even if others disagreed. But when you enlist the power of the bullet (i.e " gubbermint " ) to enforce your market position (i.e. the pasteurizers) then it makes it quite difficult for those of us who take a dissenting position. I don't have a problem with the pasteurized milk folks marketing their product. More power to them and lets battle it out in the marketplace of ideas. My problem is when they enlist the power of coercion (i.e. the " gubbermint " ) to create a market monopoly for themselves so that life is very difficult or non existent for those who want to produce and sell raw milk. just my two cents... Bianca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2002 Report Share Posted April 11, 2002 On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 17:17:20 -0500 " panamabob " <panamabob@...> writes: Did you ever hear not to assume malice when stupidity will do? You give your legislators TOO much credit. A few may have their best interest at heart, but over all I like to think they are trying...(misguided sometimes by lobbyist). *******Because they have the power to greatly harm, simply because they are the only institution with a legalized monopoly of force, it doesn't really matter whether they are malicious or stupid, the result is the same. But for my money I will have to side with Clearview Acres on this one, rarely does the government have our best interests at heart. They have their own agenda so that they can maintain power, and it often can be maliciously implemented. If what you say is true then the battle is over. After all, big business that can bring the readers digest and Disney to sell you out will be able to squash what ever tactic you want to use. Whats the use? Consider yourself lucky the ATF havent burned you out! *******Its not big business that is the problem, but big government, as your ATF reference makes abundantly clear. Bianca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2002 Report Share Posted April 11, 2002 I hope for the sake of everyones well being that your impression of a malevolent and purposefully mean government is more for dramatic effect than truth. It can seem some times that there is a masterplan or conspiracy at work... but remember we are all humans playing in Gods sandbox :-) No ones plans ever come off that well with all the possible help you can give. That fine fellow seems to muck up the best made plans. What great benefit would Tennessee have by being inflexible to the over all health benefits of the people? You sometimes gotta follow out the logic to its end to see its fallacy. I daresay this poor legislative cog does not get to go nitely into the protective " bunker " of the high mucky mucks that decided to poison every person through bad food, water and air. I would bet she has the same general concerns that most have regarding the dreaded " C " word, and would not knowingly subject her family or her self to these poisons if she indeed recognized them and was convinced they were there and a real threat greater than anything else in daily life. We all know that you can die in car accidents, yet we daily use this killer form of transportation because the alternatives seems worse. Are we brainwashed by on high to ignore the death potential of driving? By the same token this poor lady probably hasnt given a seconds thought to the milk product in the store and wether its better or worse than the milk produced back in the day of Davy Crockett. She assumes that it doesnt kill you immidiately, so its probably just as safe as million other products out there. There are many that would argue for the sake of your very life that only human milk should be consumed by humans. What was designed to grow calfs should not be ingested by people; cows milks has all kinds of hormones that humans were not designed to ingest. This doesnt mean raw milk, or pasturized, or clabbered, etc. It means ALL milk, period... and you must admit it makes pretty good sense...after all what logic has it that babies need to latch on to other species for breast sustenance ? :-) Many years ago birthing fever was considered the cause of death for large segments of women. At the time male doctors (who had somewhat successfully had pushed out mid wives) considered it un important to wash hands before helping with child birth. It was rude to suggest such a thing as washing. Homeopathy was in its infancy and actually had a better rep than todays allopathic ideologies...and homeopathy didnt really believe in germ theory being the end all. Pasturization came from germ theory. It was considered the God send for health of the 20th century (rightly or wrongly :-). Germ theory has been taught in schools along side 2+2=4. This government person probably remembers it herself. Along the way vaccination became another Godsend...but thats another segment.:-) Now someone is telling this poor well meaning civil servant that pasturization is bad and not necessary for milk. Hmm. And your credentials are ? Can you blame her? I know for a fact that presently there is another movement to ban milk all together. Proof irrifuteable that it brings nothing but harm to humans. They make very good points too. Check out some of the websites in that camp. Very convincing arguements. If it was big business trying to get you to drink only pasturized big business milk then this new camp would be counter productive , wouldnt it? lets look at what we want to do , and assume that those around us for the most part are doing what they think is Right. They may be wrong but arent trying to be malicious... If what you say is true, then God help us. I prefer the more humanistic version...wouldnt you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2002 Report Share Posted April 11, 2002 >What great benefit would Tennessee have by being inflexible to the over >all health benefits of the people? Campaign contributions and other related forms of influence dictate policies like the ban on raw milk. It's not that there's a giant central conspiracy, but many huge moneyed interests deforming the system for their own ends via propaganda and outright corruption. The solution, though, is not less government as a principle (though in some cases of course there's too much) but wresting control of government -- OUR government -- back from our foes. Government is the only force which can hope to oppose those foes on any kind of regular basis. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2002 Report Share Posted April 11, 2002 We recently had a very personal experience with the " powers that be " with their version of " allopathic vs. homeopathic or naturopathic remedies " . Let's just say that, based on very personal experience with death itself, the " powers that be " have demanded by virtue of the " Medical Gestapo " , that unless you choose " their way " of treatment, no other way will suffice. " Their allopathic way " ended in death, BUT in no way caused them any less reason to investigate our " naturopathic way " which would have most likely also ended in death. However, when the ruling powers of the state get involved and rear their ugly head, no one is safe if you have not chosen their allopathic route to commence......Still grieving and still being persecuted..... ----- Original Message ----- From: panamabob Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 11:11 PM Subject: Re: Tennessee milk blues I hope for the sake of everyones well being that your impression of a malevolent and purposefully mean government is more for dramatic effect than truth. It can seem some times that there is a masterplan or conspiracy at work... but remember we are all humans playing in Gods sandbox :-) No ones plans ever come off that well with all the possible help you can give. That fine fellow seems to muck up the best made plans. Many years ago birthing fever was considered the cause of death for large segments of women. At the time male doctors (who had somewhat successfully had pushed out mid wives) considered it un important to wash hands before helping with child birth. It was rude to suggest such a thing as washing. Homeopathy was in its infancy and actually had a better rep than todays allopathic ideologies...and homeopathy didnt really believe in germ theory being the end all. Pasturization came from germ theory. It was considered the God send for health of the 20th century (rightly or wrongly :-). Germ theory has been taught in schools along side 2+2=4. This government person probably remembers it herself. Along the way vaccination became another Godsend...but thats another segment.:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2002 Report Share Posted April 11, 2002 Don't think I can either based on the recent death experience we have had....and the investigative powers who stepped in to, in their eyes, " improve things " .....God forbid if this is improvement... ----- Original Message ----- From: bianca3@... Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 8:34 PM Subject: Re: Tennessee milk blues On Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:50:24 -0500 " panamabob " <panamabob@...> writes: I understand your anger. Pretty much the same deal in Florida. You have to understand that the Government does things in an attempt to help improve things. ++++++++Hmmmm......don't think I can go here with you. Somewhere in the past someone got hurt from unpasteurized milk, etc. A law was then passed, The Law may not even have started in Tenn or Florida, but legislaters hearing of what seemed like a good law would adopt it so they would appear " like hicks " . ++++++++Numerous people have been hurt by pasteurized milk, in fact many more than raw milk over the last 40 years and no one is clamoring to pass a law to ban pasteurized milk. There are many reasons political bodies pass laws, rarely is it to " help " people, although the language of compassion makes it much easier to get one's agenda implemented. What needs to be done is a new study on the dangers of milk; pasteurized, un pasturized, grain fed, grass fed etc. Im sure you can imagine the hassels that will be for the status quo. You may even shake the foundations of germ theory and health...which would be really hard sell since " everyone knows " that germs exist. Many will think you are stupid for going against such a basic " rule " . A hard fight at best, impossible at worst. *****several groups are already on the battle lines, www.realmilk.com readily comes to mind as does Aajonus Vonderplanitz' group out in California. The current popular germ theory is already being questioned and has been for some time. You might check the archives for the discussion that occurred here. If the government got out of the way then people like myself and others who enjoy and thrive on raw milk could go our merry " stupid " way even if others disagreed. But when you enlist the power of the bullet (i.e " gubbermint " ) to enforce your market position (i.e. the pasteurizers) then it makes it quite difficult for those of us who take a dissenting position. I don't have a problem with the pasteurized milk folks marketing their product. More power to them and lets battle it out in the marketplace of ideas. My problem is when they enlist the power of coercion (i.e. the " gubbermint " ) to create a market monopoly for themselves so that life is very difficult or non existent for those who want to produce and sell raw milk. just my two cents... Bianca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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