RE: Back to sourdough drawing board

[Guest guest]

> I thought I had the sourdough figured out. I made my own starter and

> my loaves were wonderful - except that they were made of white flour.

> Small detail, I thought, until I tried to switch. I'm using fresh

> ground spelt and my loaves are awful! They're like bricks. Is this

> normal? Are any of you making tall loaves without white flour? I

> must say, mine looks very much like the picture in nt - flat. Are my

> kids destined to eat rectangular, fall apart, sandwiches from now on?

> And the bagels - yuck!! Help, I feel like we have nothing to eat

> anymore.

Why did you make the leap from white flour all the way to spelt? That's

like going from sleeping with a down comforter to sleeping with a cement

slab. I'd try a more gradual approach. Sub appx 1/3 wheat flour for white

flour. Then move up to 2/3. Eventually you can go all whole wheat. Then

possibly gradually consider switching to spelt if spelt is important to you.

I'm not personally convinced of the value of it compared to wheat yet, and

I've yet to see a spelt loaf that comes anywhere near the lightness of

wheat. Also, if you were grinding it yourself, your flour may have been

coarser than commercial flour. That will kill a loaf in a hurry too...

Finally, if your white flour was bread flour, it probably contained both

malted barley flour (as yeast food) and vitamin c as a dough conditioner (I

think it helps develop the gluten).

Good luck!!

[Guest guest]

> > I thought I had the sourdough figured out. I made my own starter

and

> > my loaves were wonderful - except that they were made of white

flour.

> > Small detail, I thought, until I tried to switch. I'm using fresh

> > ground spelt and my loaves are awful! They're like bricks. Is

this

> > normal? Are any of you making tall loaves without white flour? I

> > must say, mine looks very much like the picture in nt - flat. Are

my

> > kids destined to eat rectangular, fall apart, sandwiches from now

on?

> > And the bagels - yuck!! Help, I feel like we have nothing to

eat

> > anymore.

>

> Why did you make the leap from white flour all the way to spelt?

That's

> like going from sleeping with a down comforter to sleeping with a

cement

> slab. I'd try a more gradual approach. Sub appx 1/3 wheat flour

for white

> flour. Then move up to 2/3. Eventually you can go all whole wheat.

Then

> possibly gradually consider switching to spelt if spelt is important

to you.

> I'm not personally convinced of the value of it compared to wheat

yet, and

> I've yet to see a spelt loaf that comes anywhere near the lightness

of

> wheat. Also, if you were grinding it yourself, your flour may have

been

> coarser than commercial flour. That will kill a loaf in a hurry

too...

> Finally, if your white flour was bread flour, it probably contained

both

> malted barley flour (as yeast food) and vitamin c as a dough

conditioner (I

> think it helps develop the gluten).

>

> Good luck!!

>

>

Do you know the gluten content of spelt? Does spelt have enough to

bake without other added gluten(from another flour)? Dennis

[Guest guest]

I use spelt for everything except unleavened bread so your 30# bag won't go

to waste. My kids love it cooked like rice. I soak it overnight in whey and

water before cooking it.

[Guest guest]

Why did you make the leap from white flour all the way to spelt? That's

like going from sleeping with a down comforter to sleeping with a cement

slab. I'd try a more gradual approach. Sub appx 1/3 wheat flour for white

flour. Then move up to 2/3. Eventually you can go all whole wheat. Then

possibly gradually consider switching to spelt if spelt is important to you.

I'm not personally convinced of the value of it compared to wheat yet, and

I've yet to see a spelt loaf that comes anywhere near the lightness of

wheat. Also, if you were grinding it yourself, your flour may have been

coarser than commercial flour. That will kill a loaf in a hurry too...

Finally, if your white flour was bread flour, it probably contained both

malted barley flour (as yeast food) and vitamin c as a dough conditioner (I

think it helps develop the gluten).

Good luck!!

The only reason I am using spelt is because someone somewhere told me to!

Jeezoman...you mean regular wheat will rise better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH ! Anybody want the 30# of spelt berries that I just bought

for my freezer!!!!!

Okay, now that I'm over my fit....please tell me exactly what wheat to buy. I

thought spelt was a kind of wheat. I know there are different types, hard,

soft, red, etc. But I can't find a good table that tells me which to use when.

I just want a nice, normal looking loaf of whole wheat bread. We have no known

allergies - what should we use?

Thanks ...

C.

[Guest guest]

I got a rye soughdough starter off some people who live locally. they

use store bought ground rye flour and some white flour to make really

nice bread. It's certainly a heavy bread but tastes really good and

cut fine and toasted is still pretty good for making sandwiches.

Anyway, I got some of the starter and tried making bread using freshly

ground rye for starter and then freshly ground spelt for the bread. A

number of serious failures - ie. failure to rise, too heavy, too moist

etc.

Anyway after some experimentation with the amount of water that you

add, the time you leave it to rise etc I now produce a fine loaf of

bread. I think the main problem I had in the early stages was adding

too much water or not enough. It's a bit tricky because recipes for

bread call for you to knead it but with the starter I use you don't

need to do that - you just stir it with a spoon. If the bread isn't

rising with the spelt then maybe you are either: adding too much

water, not adding enough, not leaving it long enough, leaving it too

long? With regard to the fineness of the flour, when I grind rye, I

grind it really coursely for the starter. When I grind spelt for the

bread, I grind it much finer but only because it is much softer and

easier to do than rye.

Mind you, I'm no expert. I seem to have stumbled on a good starter.

My starter only takes <1 day to get renewed and then less than 12

hours (usually about 6) for the bread to rise enough for baking (but

this also varies with how dense the mixture is). So

this makes me have some concerns about the amount of lactic acid in my

bread. And whether I'm getting all the biodynamic health benefits that

I was seeking when I started making bread. I'm not sure if the yeasts

in there are producing all good things since they are relatively fast

acting. But the starter I have has

been used for 10 years by my friends and then for at least 2

generations of Germans before that. And it tastes really nice!

OK good luck.

> I thought I had the sourdough figured out. I made my own starter

and

> my loaves were wonderful - except that they were made of white

flour.

> Small detail, I thought, until I tried to switch. I'm using fresh

> ground spelt and my loaves are awful! They're like bricks. Is

this

> normal? Are any of you making tall loaves without white flour? I

> must say, mine looks very much like the picture in nt - flat. Are

my

> kids destined to eat rectangular, fall apart, sandwiches from now

on?

> And the bagels - yuck!! Help, I feel like we have nothing to

eat

> anymore.

>

> Sad and hungry in Iowa,

>

> C.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Why did you make the leap from white flour all the way to spelt?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>

>

>

> The only reason I am using spelt is because someone somewhere told

me to! Jeezoman...you mean regular wheat will rise

better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH ! Anybody want

the 30# of spelt berries that I just bought for my freezer!!!!!

>

> Okay, now that I'm over my fit....please tell me exactly what

wheat to buy. I thought spelt was a kind of wheat. I know there are

different types, hard, soft, red, etc. But I can't find a good table

that tells me which to use when. I just want a nice, normal looking

loaf of whole wheat bread. We have no known allergies - what should

we use?

>

> Thanks ...

>

> C.

>

> C.:

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " regular wheat " contains gluten, will rise

best and not fall back down. I'd use hard red winter wheat; Karl 92

is good. It might not fit the NT bill. I have no idea. Somebody will

fill us in. Grind it whole along with a little spelt; (10%?) might

work! It'll sure be tasty with fresh NT butter. Did you ever try

kamut? try it if you like expirimentation! Dennis

>

[Guest guest]

> The only reason I am using spelt is because someone somewhere told me to!

> Jeezoman...you mean regular wheat will rise

> better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH ! Anybody want

> the 30# of spelt berries that I just bought for my freezer!!!!!

>

> Okay, now that I'm over my fit....please tell me exactly what wheat to

buy.

> I thought spelt was a kind of wheat. I know there are different types,

> hard, soft, red, etc. But I can't find a good table that tells me which

to

> use when. I just want a nice, normal looking loaf of whole wheat bread.

> We have no known allergies - what should we use?

Let me preface everything I say with this; while I used to bake very well, I

haven't baked at all (other than a couple batches in a bread machine) in

several years.

Spelt *is* a wheat. It's just prehistoric wheat. It has gluten, but not in

optimal amounts for baking. I have no experience baking with it, but every

commercial spelt loaf I've seen has been denser and coarser than wheat

loaves generally are.

For baking bread, you want lot's of gluten. Hard wheats (that includes red

I think) are high gluten wheats. The degree of fineness to the flour will

also strongly affect the lightness of the finished product. Coarse flour =

heavy bread. Like I said before, I'd keep using your current white

sourdough bread recipe and start adding successively larger amounts of whole

wheat flour (from high gluten, hard varieties). It'll be less of a shock to

your tastes, and you'll be able to " tweak " the rising time, amount of

liquid, baking time, etc.

[Guest guest]

> Are any of you making tall loaves without

> white flour?

Yes, I'm making all-spelt sourdough loaves, using the

recipe posted a while back (sorry, I don't

know the post # or date). I haven't used the NT

sourdough recipe. My bread has been coming out tall,

i.e. makes square slices. It's heavier than

commercial breads, but nothing like the bricks I made

in my first sourdough attempts. It works okay for

sandwiches, but does fall apart more easily than

commercial bread. I'm using the San Francisco starter

from Sourdough Intl., and using spelt for all of it

now, including the starter itself. I seem to have the

best results when I feed it often for a couple days, 4

hours or so between daytime feedings, when I keep it

warm in the oven - near 100 degrees - and at night

feed it right before bed then first thing in the

morning, leaving it on the cooler counter overnight -

around 65 degrees. Warmer temps lead to faster

fermentation and less sourness. I don't know why, but

this schedule seems to result in better loaf rising

for me, too. I make sure to use the starter when it's

at the very active stage, 2 or 3 hours after feeding.

I let the loaf proof for at least 4 hours in the warm

oven, preferably 5 or 6.

> I've yet to see a spelt loaf that comes anywhere

> near the lightness of

> wheat.

My spelt loaves work better than my wheat loaves, but

that may be because I have more experience in general

with making sourdough bread than when I was using

straight wheat. I should do a comparison now, make a

spelt batch and a wheat batch side by side.

> Also, if you were grinding it yourself, your

> flour may have been

> coarser than commercial flour. That will kill a

> loaf in a hurry too...

That's one of the reasons I like spelt better, it

seems softer than red wheat to me and seems to make a

finer flour on the same mill setting.

Aubin

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> Do you know the gluten content of spelt? Does spelt have enough to

> bake without other added gluten(from another flour)? Dennis

No I don't. I know that it has some, because it's not safe for people with

celiac disease. It has enought to bake with, but I suspect it's probably

not enough to produce loaves that most people would be happy with.

[Guest guest]

Has anyone experimented with different starters keeping all else the same? Does

it really affect the flavor of the bread if you change the starter? My problem

is not really with the flavor, but rather with texture. I think my starter is

active enough - its quite bubbly. I grind my spelt down as fine as the spelt in

the store so I don't think that is the problem. I don't really want to add

white flour because I'm trying to get away from white flour. I was able to make

a very nice loaf when I did add it. I think the gluten may be the problem.

I'll try to use a regular wheat instead of spelt. Does anyone make a great

loaf without adding any white flour? I want to know if my goal is reasonable or

not.

C.

----- Original Message -----

From: able20us

Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 11:56 PM

Subject: Re: Back to sourdough drawing board

I got a rye soughdough starter off some people who live locally. they

use store bought ground rye flour and some white flour to make really

nice bread. It's certainly a heavy bread but tastes really good and

cut fine and toasted is still pretty good for making sandwiches.

Anyway, I got some of the starter and tried making bread using freshly

ground rye for starter and then freshly ground spelt for the bread. A

number of serious failures - ie. failure to rise, too heavy, too moist

etc.

Anyway after some experimentation with the amount of water that you

add, the time you leave it to rise etc I now produce a fine loaf of

bread. I think the main problem I had in the early stages was adding

too much water or not enough. It's a bit tricky because recipes for

bread call for you to knead it but with the starter I use you don't

need to do that - you just stir it with a spoon. If the bread isn't

rising with the spelt then maybe you are either: adding too much

water, not adding enough, not leaving it long enough, leaving it too

long? With regard to the fineness of the flour, when I grind rye, I

grind it really coursely for the starter. When I grind spelt for the

bread, I grind it much finer but only because it is much softer and

easier to do than rye.

Mind you, I'm no expert. I seem to have stumbled on a good starter.

My starter only takes <1 day to get renewed and then less than 12

hours (usually about 6) for the bread to rise enough for baking (but

this also varies with how dense the mixture is). So

this makes me have some concerns about the amount of lactic acid in my

bread. And whether I'm getting all the biodynamic health benefits that

I was seeking when I started making bread. I'm not sure if the yeasts

in there are producing all good things since they are relatively fast

acting. But the starter I have has

been used for 10 years by my friends and then for at least 2

generations of Germans before that. And it tastes really nice!

OK good luck.

> I thought I had the sourdough figured out. I made my own starter

and

> my loaves were wonderful - except that they were made of white

flour.

> Small detail, I thought, until I tried to switch. I'm using fresh

> ground spelt and my loaves are awful! They're like bricks. Is

this

> normal? Are any of you making tall loaves without white flour? I

> must say, mine looks very much like the picture in nt - flat. Are

my

> kids destined to eat rectangular, fall apart, sandwiches from now

on?

> And the bagels - yuck!! Help, I feel like we have nothing to

eat

> anymore.

>

> Sad and hungry in Iowa,

>

> C.

[Guest guest]

>Yes, I'm making all-spelt sourdough loaves, using the

>recipe posted a while back (sorry, I don't

>know the post # or date

I was wondering if you could repost this recipee!

Grace,

a Augustine

I wish you enough sun to keep your attitude bright.

I wish you enough rain to appreciate the sun more.

I wish you enough happiness to keep your spirit alive.

I wish you enough pain so that the smallest joys in life appear much bigger.

I wish you enough gain to satisfy your wanting.

I wish you enough loss to appreciate all that you possess.

I wish you enough ''Hello's " to get you through the final goodbye.

--anonymous

----- Original Message -----

From: Aubin Parrish

Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 11:18 AM

Subject: RE: Back to sourdough drawing board

> Are any of you making tall loaves without

> white flour?

Yes, I'm making all-spelt sourdough loaves, using the

recipe posted a while back (sorry, I don't

know the post # or date). I haven't used the NT

sourdough recipe. My bread has been coming out tall,

i.e. makes square slices. It's heavier than

commercial breads, but nothing like the bricks I made

in my first sourdough attempts. It works okay for

sandwiches, but does fall apart more easily than

commercial bread. I'm using the San Francisco starter

from Sourdough Intl., and using spelt for all of it

now, including the starter itself. I seem to have the

best results when I feed it often for a couple days, 4

hours or so between daytime feedings, when I keep it

warm in the oven - near 100 degrees - and at night

feed it right before bed then first thing in the

morning, leaving it on the cooler counter overnight -

around 65 degrees. Warmer temps lead to faster

fermentation and less sourness. I don't know why, but

this schedule seems to result in better loaf rising

for me, too. I make sure to use the starter when it's

at the very active stage, 2 or 3 hours after feeding.

I let the loaf proof for at least 4 hours in the warm

oven, preferably 5 or 6.

> I've yet to see a spelt loaf that comes anywhere

> near the lightness of

> wheat.

My spelt loaves work better than my wheat loaves, but

that may be because I have more experience in general

with making sourdough bread than when I was using

straight wheat. I should do a comparison now, make a

spelt batch and a wheat batch side by side.

> Also, if you were grinding it yourself, your

> flour may have been

> coarser than commercial flour. That will kill a

> loaf in a hurry too...

That's one of the reasons I like spelt better, it

seems softer than red wheat to me and seems to make a

finer flour on the same mill setting.

Aubin

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> I'm using the San Francisco starter

> from Sourdough Intl., and using spelt for all of it

> now, including the starter itself.

I wonder if that isn't perhaps a factor too. You're starter may be

" conditioned " to spelt by now. If you'd been using a whit bread flour for

both starter and the recipe, the starter may be used to having the

particular carbohydrate and nutrient mix that is unique to it (not to

mention any barley malt that may have been added to aid yeast growth).

Suddenly switching it to a new medium might cause it to underperfom in it's

leavening capacity. Over time, I would guess the ecological balance of

yeasts and bacteria in the starter would adapt to the new medium.

[Guest guest]

At 01:18 PM 4/17/2002 -0500, you wrote:

>I don't really want to add white flour because I'm trying to get away from

>white flour. I was able to make a very nice loaf when I did add it. I

>think the gluten may be the problem. I'll try to use a regular wheat

>instead of spelt. Does anyone make a great loaf without adding any white

>flour? I want to know if my goal is reasonable or not.

There are recipes for people with celiac to produce chewy bread without

using gluten -- the techniques would also work for low-gluten flour. Mostly

they involve using potato flour, guar gum, xanthan gum, or tapioca. But no

matter what, you still don't get a very nutritious product, and they don't

get along with the guts of THIS family anyway, so I gave up mostly. But

xanthan gum DID work for me (whether it's healthy or not is another

question) and guar gum works for others (but my gut doesn't like it, I

think) -- in either case you just add a teaspoon to the flour in question

and continue with the recipe -- and the loaves DO come out nice.

You can also cheat and whip up some egg whites, then add the flour mixture.

This makes a bread that is really crispy when reheated, and not yeasty.

To my mind, if you are using non-nutritious hi-carb flours, it's best to

make something really yummy while you are at it, like cream puff shells,

brioche, waffles, or chebe bread -- all of which rely on eggs, not yeast.

But I've never liked bread much anyway, to me it was just filler food or an

edible napkin, so I'm not the person to ask!

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

's was post number #965. I keep a copy handy and use it everyday, but

my loaves are still flat. boo hoo

C.

----- Original Message -----

From: a Augustine

Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 7:35 AM

Subject: Re: Back to sourdough drawing board

>Yes, I'm making all-spelt sourdough loaves, using the

>recipe posted a while back (sorry, I don't

>know the post # or date

I was wondering if you could repost this recipee!

Grace,

a Augustine

I wish you enough sun to keep your attitude bright.

I wish you enough rain to appreciate the sun more.

I wish you enough happiness to keep your spirit alive.

I wish you enough pain so that the smallest joys in life appear much bigger.

I wish you enough gain to satisfy your wanting.

I wish you enough loss to appreciate all that you possess.

I wish you enough ''Hello's " to get you through the final goodbye.

--anonymous

----- Original Message -----

From: Aubin Parrish

Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 11:18 AM

Subject: RE: Back to sourdough drawing board

> Are any of you making tall loaves without

> white flour?

Yes, I'm making all-spelt sourdough loaves, using the

recipe posted a while back (sorry, I don't

know the post # or date). I haven't used the NT

sourdough recipe. My bread has been coming out tall,

i.e. makes square slices. It's heavier than

commercial breads, but nothing like the bricks I made

in my first sourdough attempts. It works okay for

sandwiches, but does fall apart more easily than

commercial bread. I'm using the San Francisco starter

from Sourdough Intl., and using spelt for all of it

now, including the starter itself. I seem to have the

best results when I feed it often for a couple days, 4

hours or so between daytime feedings, when I keep it

warm in the oven - near 100 degrees - and at night

feed it right before bed then first thing in the

morning, leaving it on the cooler counter overnight -

around 65 degrees. Warmer temps lead to faster

fermentation and less sourness. I don't know why, but

this schedule seems to result in better loaf rising

for me, too. I make sure to use the starter when it's

at the very active stage, 2 or 3 hours after feeding.

I let the loaf proof for at least 4 hours in the warm

oven, preferably 5 or 6.

> I've yet to see a spelt loaf that comes anywhere

> near the lightness of

> wheat.

My spelt loaves work better than my wheat loaves, but

that may be because I have more experience in general

with making sourdough bread than when I was using

straight wheat. I should do a comparison now, make a

spelt batch and a wheat batch side by side.

> Also, if you were grinding it yourself, your

> flour may have been

> coarser than commercial flour. That will kill a

> loaf in a hurry too...

That's one of the reasons I like spelt better, it

seems softer than red wheat to me and seems to make a

finer flour on the same mill setting.

Aubin

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Conway wrote:

>

> 's was post number #965. I keep a copy handy and use it everyday, but

my loaves are still flat. boo hoo

Mine too. I know sourdough is supposed to be kind of heavy, but the

stuff I make, well, you could tile the floor with it. Tastes good,

though.

AP

--

Aviation is more than a hobby. It is more than a job. It is more than

a career. Aviation is a way of life.

A second language for the world: www.esperanto.com

Processor cycles are a terrible thing to waste: www.distributed.net