RE: Testimonials from the low-fat refugees

[Guest guest]

-

>I'm certain that I recall hearing anecdotes of asthma worsening on a lowfat

>diet. Anybody?

Me. There are other factors too, but even now if I run out of fat and

don't eat enough for a couple days it gets a lot worse.

>How about instances of anxiety and or heart irregularities due to: lowfat,

>omega imbalances, and/or magnesium/mineral imbalances?

This is harder to nail down, but a pancreatin (enzyme) supplement

eliminated my anxiety problem. Switching to an NT-style diet wasn't enough

by itself. Again, other factors are involved too, though, like eliminating

grains -- they give me problems even with the supplement. Whether that

would help her or a significant portion of other people with anxiety,

though, is anyone's guess.

-

[Guest guest]

Thanks ! How long were you low fat?

[Guest guest]

It sounds heartless and maybe it is, but I'd let her sink or swim for

a little longer. It doesn't sound like she's ready to change her diet

yet, so even if you overwhelm her with facts she's going to always

think that in the long run she's eating unhealthfully. Its like the

Atkins diet, a lot of people lose weight on it but then they go back

to low-fat eating because they're still afraid of fat. Just make it

clear that there are other schools of thought but that you think

everyone has to do what works for them, and let the subject drop.

Maybe a year from now she'll ask you for some advice.

[Guest guest]

-

>Thanks ! How long were you low fat?

I never really bought into the low fat craze, but I nonetheless ate that

way a few times during my life. When I was a kid, my mom went on a tofu

kick, during which our meals were low fat, and then later on an ultra-low

fat, almost macrobiotic craze. Both times my asthma, which I got at an

extremely early age apparently due to her smoking (she later quit, years

before either low-fat period) worsened. Then when I was on my own I went

through a time or two during which I could hardly afford to put food on my

table, and so my diet of necessity became low in fat.

I should mention, though, that's it's not merely the presence of sufficient

fat in my diet which helps my asthma, but the nature of the fat I

consume. PUFA vegetable oils (and of course trans fats) are both

killers. If I eat something made with commercial mayonnaise, bang, asthma

attack, but if I make homemade olive oil or coconut oil mayo, I'm

fine. (I've pretty much given up on mayo because olive oil may tastes too

strongly of olives for me and coconut oil mayo is an enormous pain in the

neck because it solidifies.) And of course sugar's a killer too, and

excess starch. Interestingly, though, fish, with its highly unsaturated

oils, doesn't cause a problem, unlike even un-hydrogenated vegetable oils

like corn oil.

Unfortunately my asthma still tends to be very bad, or at least very

reactive to the least little problem in the air (like a dusty room, a cat's

litter box, the smoke and pollution from the World Trade Center disaster,

sometimes I don't know what) so I can only hope that after a few years of

eating only the best fats from grass-fed animals and fish and whatnot my

system will manage to repair itself on a more fundamental level, but at

least when I'm eating right and avoiding air problems it's vastly better

than it used to be.

-

[Guest guest]

> fine. (I've pretty much given up on mayo because olive oil may tastes too

> strongly of olives for me and coconut oil mayo is an enormous pain in the

> neck because it solidifies.) And of course sugar's a killer too, and

Just a suggestion to try... I haven't tried it myself yet, but I would

expect avocado oil or maybe almond oil (depending on the use) might work

well. They should both be relatively mild compared to olive oil and they

both have fairly favorable FA profiles (especially avocado). These

possibilities seem somewhat less likely to be tasty, but if you really want

mayo you might want to try peanut or untoasted sesame oil too. Peanut and

sesame might benefit more from the addition of lime juice. Avocado and

almond would probably do well with lemon. All of them would probably be

good with white wine vinegar.

However, all of the above has only been experimented on in my mind's

kitchen. Real kitchens are much more tricky! ;-)

[Guest guest]

At 02:14 PM 4/23/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>I should mention, though, that's it's not merely the presence of sufficient

>fat in my diet which helps my asthma, but the nature of the fat I

>consume. PUFA vegetable oils (and of course trans fats) are both

>killers. If I eat something made with commercial mayonnaise, bang, asthma

>attack, but if I make homemade olive oil or coconut oil mayo, I'm

>fine.

You know it's interesting: I don't really have asthma (I think), but every

time I get some Canola my chest closes up like asthma and it's hard to

breathe. Took me forever to figure it out -- but they put Canola in so many

things now, and since I'm not cooking with it any more I'm more sensitized

to it. None of the other PUFA's do that -- I think it's a Canola thing.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>Took me forever to figure it out -- but they put Canola in so many

>things now, and since I'm not cooking with it any more I'm more sensitized

>to it. None of the other PUFA's do that -- I think it's a Canola thing.

Canola is definitely a terrible, terrible oil for a wide variety of

reasons, but I do have one theory about your experience -- trans

fats. Manmade trans fats are really bad for asthmatics, and I've read in

multiple locations that Canola oil contains trans fats despite not being

hydrogenated due to some element of the processing required to manufacture

it. (I say manmade because IIRC, CLA -- the much-vaunted fatty acid to be

found in grass-fed meat and dairy -- is actually a naturally-occurring

trans fat, but natural CLA is obviously very good for us.)

-

[Guest guest]

At 11:15 PM 4/23/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>Heidi-

>

> >Took me forever to figure it out -- but they put Canola in so many

> >things now, and since I'm not cooking with it any more I'm more sensitized

> >to it. None of the other PUFA's do that -- I think it's a Canola thing.

>

>Canola is definitely a terrible, terrible oil for a wide variety of

>reasons, but I do have one theory about your experience -- trans

>fats. Manmade trans fats are really bad for asthmatics, and I've read in

>multiple locations that Canola oil contains trans fats despite not being

>hydrogenated due to some element of the processing required to manufacture

>it. (I say manmade because IIRC, CLA -- the much-vaunted fatty acid to be

>found in grass-fed meat and dairy -- is actually a naturally-occurring

>trans fat, but natural CLA is obviously very good for us.)

>

>-

Hmmm. I wonder if it's been studied. Why I wonder is that my boy, ,

has been tube fed since birth and mostly fed bottled products. After my

Canola experience I took another look at the label -- and it was all Canola

and Karo and soy. It seemed like he was having problems with it too ... so

being the rebel that I am I mixed up my own mix (coconut oil and egg based:

it's not ideal still and still has the Karo, but it's slowly improving --

there are multiple problems with getting food through a little tube!). Some

of his issues actually seem to be clearing up -- he's had chronic sinus

problems but they are clearing.

So why are they feeding sick little kids Canola, Karo and soy? And why

isn't anyone even looking at alternatives? These kids have a LOT of

problems with asthma, but it's kind of accepted that when a kid has

" problems " early in life that they may get asthma.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

,

I also have an anxiety problem and I'm curious about the pancreatin

supplement. I don't think diet is the main problem for me since I

have plenty of stress to account for the anxiety, but food has

triggered some of my panic attacks (I decided it was because I was

afraid there was something wrong with the food, but who knows). I'm

doing an experiment with going off grains to see what happens, but

it's too early to tell. Where did you get the idea to try that

particular supplement? I'd really appreciate any more details about

the supplement or other dietary changes that helped.

Thanks,

>

> Me. There are other factors too, but even now if I run out of fat

and

> don't eat enough for a couple days it gets a lot worse.

>

> >How about instances of anxiety and or heart irregularities due to:

lowfat,

> >omega imbalances, and/or magnesium/mineral imbalances?

>

> This is harder to nail down, but a pancreatin (enzyme) supplement

> eliminated my anxiety problem. Switching to an NT-style diet wasn't

enough

> by itself. Again, other factors are involved too, though, like

eliminating

> grains -- they give me problems even with the supplement. Whether

that

> would help her or a significant portion of other people with

anxiety,

> though, is anyone's guess.

>

>

>

>

> -

[Guest guest]

-

>I don't think diet is the main problem for me since I

>have plenty of stress to account for the anxiety,

That could be so, but frankly I think it's highly likely that diet is at

the root of it. The human system can withstand an awful lot of stress

without becoming stressed out if it's properly nourished and doesn't have

to deal with harmful, indigestible foods. People going on the SCD diet,

for example (the Specific Carbohydrate Diet, designed to remedy bowel

disease and described in _Breaking The Vicious Cycle_) are very frequently

surprised at the seemingly-unrelated conditions which clear up after

positive dietary change. The same can be said, actually, for most good

diets, including NT, but that's probably because all genuinely good diets

(which effect long-term rather than merely short-term change) are pretty

closely related.

>I'm

>doing an experiment with going off grains to see what happens,

That's a very good idea, but make sure to go off sugars too or your

experiment may fail. You might want to avoid very starchy foods like

potatoes too, but that may depend more on other details of your physiology.

>Where did you get the idea to try that

>particular supplement? I'd really appreciate any more details about

>the supplement or other dietary changes that helped.

Actually, I tried a pancreatic enzyme supplement for a completely different

reason -- I suffer from allergies, and I read that in some fraction of

cases, perhaps 20%, taking an amylase supplement helps or eliminates

allergies because the allergies turn out to be due to undigested starches,

so I bought a bottle of Lipanase (the particular pancreatin extract I

happened to try) and took it faithfully with every meal for, I don't know,

about a month, until I finished the bottle. During that time I noticed no

change in my allergies, which isn't that surprising since I don't eat much

in the way of starch, so once I finished the bottle I decided that

particular experiment was over. The surprise was that I immediately

started suffering from anxiety and attacks of what I've called the dreads

-- problems I hadn't noticed I wasn't having during the month I took the

pancreatin. So I bought another bottle, and almost overnight the anxiety

cleared up. Then I stopped taking it again to see what happened -- and

presto, the anxiety returned. I also experimented with a mixed enzyme

supplement with various plant enzymes and a very small amount of

pancreatin, but that didn't do anything for me that I could see, so I went

back to the Lipanase and I haven't stopped taking it since.

I'm not particularly happy with this state of affairs for the long term,

since I wonder whether I'm causing my system to become dependent on an

external supply of enzymes rather than merely taking care of a problem, but

I'm trying to deal with that by eating a more raw diet.

I should add that I have some pretty stunning stress in my life too, and

while I wouldn't call the pancreatin a magic bullet and I wouldn't describe

it that way to anyone, it does help enormously. Instead of being weighed

down, sometimes even crippled, by anxiety, I just deal with things as they

come. But the degree to which it's helpful even for people whose anxiety

is rooted in digestion will probably depend to a great deal on what those

people are eating. Taking all the enzymes in the world probably won't

solve the problem for someone who continues to eat refined sugars,

devitalized foods, trans fats, grains -- particularly grains not prepared

the NT way -- etc.

-

[Guest guest]

My wife and I did the low-fat thing for the first seven years we were

together. I had recently joined the Navy and, since submarine food

is pretty high-fat, didn't notice too much of an effect until I went

on shore duty 3 years later. We only bought no-fat or low-fat, no

red meat, no whole milk, no real eggs. I doubt we even got 30 grams

of fat per day. After 3-4 years of that diet, I felt pretty

terrible. I had lost weight while trying to gain, and I didn't seem

able to build muscle at all. My wife met with a plague of conditions

including asthma, psoriasis, IBS, reflux, etc. etc. I started

researching nutrition and fitness to combat our failing health.

Luckily, I happened across some info on the paleo diet, and adopted

some very different eating habits. We ate fish and raw veggies

nearly every day (red meat was still evil in our minds) and, although

we both felt better, we were far from our youthful health and fitness

levels. Having read extensively about the paleo diet, I ran across a

paper that provided evidence that humankind had evolved to

incorporate some amount of traditionally prepared foods into the

diet. Shortly afterwards, I found the WAP site, and we adopted the

NT diet (she's still not eating red meat, though). I noticed a

pronounced change for the positive in both our physical and mental

states over the course of the next two months. I still follow some

paleo diet guidlines, such as macronutrient ratios (50F 28P 22C) and

a reluctance to consume a lot of dairy, but we're NT for the most

part. I've just gotten into making kraut and stocks, and expect a

lot from the additions. One negative, though. Looking back over our

checking account registers from years ago, our monthly grocery bill

was only $175.00 seven years ago on the low-fat diet, but it tops

$600 on NT. Maybe what we eat really doesn't matter all that much as

the body reduces everything to amino acids and glucose anyhow, and NT

is just a grocery store mafia conspiracy to make more money Take

care, and have fun.

Dan

[Guest guest]

>>>>>One negative, though. Looking back over our

checking account registers from years ago, our monthly grocery bill

was only $175.00 seven years ago on the low-fat diet, but it tops

$600 on NT. Maybe what we eat really doesn't matter all that much as

the body reduces everything to amino acids and glucose anyhow, and NT

is just a grocery store mafia conspiracy to make more money Take

care, and have fun.

***Hi Dan,

Ouch that's a painful grocery bill! But, have you adjusted for inflation?

I'm pretty sure my grocery bill would've been quite a bit lower 7 years ago

had i lived in the same location i do now and eaten the same foods.

Also, are you getting your meat directly from the farm? If not, you can save

a lot by buying direct and especially buying in bulk, such as a quarter or

half an animal. Or in the case of sheep or goat, for instance, buying the

whole animal. As far as produce, I ONLY buy at local farmers' markets in

season and find the produce not only to be much fresher than the stuff

shipped in from CA, but also cheaper.

By buying directly from local farms, you can not only save money and get

fresher and often more nutritious food, but also provide vital support to

small farms, which are probably our only hope for authentic, nutrient-dense

foods.

IMO, one of the MOST important messages from the WAPF is supporting local

small farmers - good for them, good for us, and good for the seventh

generation...

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

>>>> so I went

back to the Lipanase and I haven't stopped taking it since.

I'm not particularly happy with this state of affairs for the long term,

since I wonder whether I'm causing my system to become dependent on an

external supply of enzymes rather than merely taking care of a problem, but

I'm trying to deal with that by eating a more raw diet.

***, I've thought about this too. I've got both of my senior dogs on

digestive enzymes (including pancreatin) and I think they've become

dependent on them. I haven't read any literature that supports this, but I

know some other folks feel this is a probability as well. This is one reason

I don't take them myself, i think i'm too young to become dependent on them,

and i don't want to spend the rest of my life on them. But when i did have a

digestive problem a few months back, i took some for a short period.

do you think that your body would again produce the necessary quantity of

enzymes if you weaned yourself off them slowly? i don't mean *you* in

particular, but as a general rule? i can't imagine that the body would

totally lose it's ability to produce pancreatic enzymes through

supplementation...

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

> (I say manmade because IIRC, CLA -- the much-vaunted fatty acid to be

> found in grass-fed meat and dairy -- is actually a naturally-occurring

> trans fat, but natural CLA is obviously very good for us.)

I believe CLA is, in fact, a cis fatty acid rather than a trans fatty acid;

however, trans vaccenic acid (sp?) which the human gut is readily capable of

converting to CLA *is* a healthy naturally occurring trans fat (in butter).

Funny thing: I actually read an article (on iVillage.com a while back, I

think) by either a registered dietician or certified nutritionist that

discouraged eating butter not only because of saturated fat, but also

because of *trans fatty acid* content! Yep, they saw that there were trans

fats and assumed they were bad rather than doing the work to find out

whether such naturally occurring trans fats had a valid role!

[Guest guest]

> > (I say manmade because IIRC, CLA -- the much-vaunted fatty acid

to be

> > found in grass-fed meat and dairy -- is actually a naturally-

occurring

> > trans fat, but natural CLA is obviously very good for us.)

>

> I believe CLA is, in fact, a cis fatty acid rather than a trans

fatty acid;

> however, trans vaccenic acid (sp?) which the human gut is readily

capable of

> converting to CLA *is* a healthy naturally occurring trans fat (in

butter).

The 'conjugated' part of Conjugated Linoleic Acid refers to the fact

that it has one cis and one trans. There are actually three kinds of

naturally occuring CLA: 9 cis, 11 trans; 10 trans 12 cis; and 11 cis

13 trans. The most common is the 9cis 11trans.

CLA also works for the same reason that trans fats are nasty: the odd

shape at the trans bond blocks the actions of certain enzymes. Its

just that for CLA it blocks bad reactions. For example, 10trans 12cis

blocks lipoprotein lipase, which results in lean animals.

The CLA studies have not been corroborated in humans, but that may be

for one of two reasons: one is that most humans have a high 'bad'

trans load which will counter the effects of the 'good' trans, and

the other is because CLA supplements are not dairy derived, but are

produced by hydrogenated high linoleic sunflower oil, resulting in a

high content of bad trans!

>

>

> Funny thing: I actually read an article (on iVillage.com a while

back, I

> think) by either a registered dietician or certified nutritionist

that

> discouraged eating butter not only because of saturated fat, but

also

> because of *trans fatty acid* content! Yep, they saw that there

were trans

> fats and assumed they were bad rather than doing the work to find

out

> whether such naturally occurring trans fats had a valid role!

It would be hard to expect someone to do that with all the demonizing

(in nutritional circles) or trans fats. CLA is still pretty cutting

edge. We only know about it because its found in grassfed ruminants,

and therefore justifies our dietary choices.

[Guest guest]

> it's not ideal still and still has the Karo, but it's slowly improving --

> there are multiple problems with getting food through a little tube!).

Some

> of his issues actually seem to be clearing up -- he's had chronic sinus

> problems but they are clearing.

Heidi,

Why does it still have the Karo? Is there something particular about it

that couldn't be provided by some other sugar syrup like Lundberg Farms GF

Rice Syrup, honey, maple syrup, or even a Sucanat or Rapadura syrup? I

would even expect a frozen concentrate apple juice to be a better

alternative...? I'm really just curious; I don't claim to know anything

about the specifics of the mix and its requirements.

[Guest guest]

At 11:10 AM 4/24/2002 -0500, you wrote:

>Heidi,

>

>Why does it still have the Karo? Is there something particular about it

>that couldn't be provided by some other sugar syrup like Lundberg Farms GF

>Rice Syrup, honey, maple syrup, or even a Sucanat or Rapadura syrup? I

>would even expect a frozen concentrate apple juice to be a better

>alternative...? I'm really just curious; I don't claim to know anything

>about the specifics of the mix and its requirements.

We tried molasses first, but it gets too thick: I think honey would have

the same problem. The mix has to be kept cold, because he's fed at 15

minute intervals and it's just not feasible to heat up small amounts every

15 minutes. For some reason it thickens the whole mix and it won't go

through the tube. I'm trying to keep the protein/fat/carb ratios about the

same as the formula (on the theory that they did more research on kids than

I have and it basically works), but carbs tend to be thick and clog the

tubes. We don't experiment TOO quickly because he reacts -- we change one

thing at a time, gradually. Juices caused diarrhea in our older kid, and

the pediatrician said that was typical, so I guess I've avoided them for

that reason.

I need to do more research on sugars. Glucose, maltose, fructose -- they

all get digested differently!!!! The corn syrup seems to be the standard

for kid's formulas, I'm guessing because it gets sucked into the

bloodstream quickly and doesn't go into the gut to screw up the

bacteria/digestion there, and it doesn't cause blood sugar spikes. Which is

not generally a good thing, for kids, but I'm not sure if it's good for him

or not. Sugar metabolism issues are almost as complicated as fat metabolism

issues.

What I REALLY need is to talk the docs into a wider tube, so we can grind

up more normal foods. Like steak maybe! And to get him to EAT (he's

beginning to, but it's a slow process: he basically can eat ok, but he has

an abnormal gag reflex).

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

> We tried molasses first, but it gets too thick: I think honey would have

> the same problem. The mix has to be kept cold, because he's fed at 15

> minute intervals and it's just not feasible to heat up small amounts every

> 15 minutes. For some reason it thickens the whole mix and it won't go

> through the tube. I'm trying to keep the protein/fat/carb ratios about the

> same as the formula (on the theory that they did more research on kids

than

> I have and it basically works), but carbs tend to be thick and clog the

> tubes. We don't experiment TOO quickly because he reacts -- we change one

> thing at a time, gradually. Juices caused diarrhea in our older kid, and

> the pediatrician said that was typical, so I guess I've avoided them for

> that reason.

Couldn't you dilute the molasses, honey, or rice syrup to achieve the right

consistency? Granted it would increase the total volume slightly, but I

wouldn't think it would require a large increase... I suspect the higher

mineral content in the alternative syrups would make the extra water

desirable anyway...

[Guest guest]

> > We tried molasses first, but it gets too thick: I think honey

would have

> > the same problem. The mix has to be kept cold, because he's fed

at 15

> > minute intervals and it's just not feasible to heat up small

amounts every

>

> > 15 minutes. For some reason it thickens the whole mix and it

won't go

> > through the tube. I'm trying to keep the protein/fat/carb ratios

about the

>

> > same as the formula (on the theory that they did more research on

kids

> than

> > I have and it basically works), but carbs tend to be thick and

clog the

> > tubes. We don't experiment TOO quickly because he reacts -- we

change one

> > thing at a time, gradually. Juices caused diarrhea in our older

kid, and

> > the pediatrician said that was typical, so I guess I've avoided

them for

> > that reason.

>

> Couldn't you dilute the molasses, honey, or rice syrup to achieve

the right

> consistency? Granted it would increase the total volume slightly,

but I

> wouldn't think it would require a large increase... I suspect the

higher

> mineral content in the alternative syrups would make the extra water

> desirable anyway...

Why the emphasis on sugars? Why not a nice starch like tomatos made

into a puree or soup? That should flow pretty nicely.

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>I'm trying to keep the protein/fat/carb ratios about the

>same as the formula (on the theory that they did more research on kids than

>I have and it basically works),

Given the monstrous crap that masquerades as baby food, I wouldn't consider

that a sound assumption. I think you'd do much better to base the mixture

more on the milk replacer recipe in NT and avoid corn syrup like the

plague. At the very least, replace it with a whole sweetener like maple

syrup -- still bad, but better.

-

[Guest guest]

-

Right, it's coming back to me now, but the papers and articles I read a

year or two ago indicated that nobody knew how the different forms

functioned in the body. Is there new information on this?

>The 'conjugated' part of Conjugated Linoleic Acid refers to the fact

>that it has one cis and one trans. There are actually three kinds of

>naturally occuring CLA: 9 cis, 11 trans; 10 trans 12 cis; and 11 cis

>13 trans. The most common is the 9cis 11trans.

>

>CLA also works for the same reason that trans fats are nasty: the odd

>shape at the trans bond blocks the actions of certain enzymes. Its

>just that for CLA it blocks bad reactions. For example, 10trans 12cis

>blocks lipoprotein lipase, which results in lean animals.

-

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>So why are they feeding sick little kids Canola, Karo and soy?

Because these ingredients are cheap for them to acquire and produce and

thus provide a high profit margin compared to healthy whole foods.

-

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>do you think that your body would again produce the necessary quantity of

>enzymes if you weaned yourself off them slowly? i don't mean *you* in

>particular, but as a general rule? i can't imagine that the body would

>totally lose it's ability to produce pancreatic enzymes through

>supplementation...

That's my theory. My plan is to improve my health as much as possible,

and, when I'm healthier and eating a more raw diet (i.e. more RAF)

gradually decrease my pancreatin dose and see what happens. Obviously I

was suffering from enzyme insufficiency to start with, but hopefully I can

get things going to the point where I someday won't need a supplement anymore.

-

[Guest guest]

At 05:50 PM 4/24/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>Why the emphasis on sugars? Why not a nice starch like tomatos made

>into a puree or soup? That should flow pretty nicely.

>

>

Or better -- I think I have the name of a doc who will just replace the

silly tube with something bigger. Then we can just go for hamburger! And

vegies and whatever. (I just came back from a GREAT doctor appointment with

an allergist for ).

The reason for the sugars is for n calories of carbohydrates in a small

volume. Tomato juice has next to no calories. But I don't like the idea of

everything being so pureed either: the gut actually does better when things

are a bit chunky and dissolve slower. The allergist also did a CT scan, and

it looks like most of his nasal problems can be fixed easily (turns out he

has a VERY deviated septum), which should make it easier for him to digest

stuff. Then we can vary his diet more.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

At 12:47 PM 4/24/2002 -0500, you wrote:

>Couldn't you dilute the molasses, honey, or rice syrup to achieve the right

>consistency? Granted it would increase the total volume slightly, but I

>wouldn't think it would require a large increase... I suspect the higher

>mineral content in the alternative syrups would make the extra water

>desirable anyway...

>

>

That's the problem: volume! He was tube fed as a baby, and his stomach

doesn't hold much. So he has to be fed minute amounts at close intervals or

he throws up. Used to be he'd throw up 10 times a day. Which needless to

say was not good for nutrition or his esophagus. We've managed to get that

better by very careful manipulation of a lot of factors. Now we can feed

him a whole 2 oz at a time. He's much, much better than he was, and if we

get a bigger tube (mentioned in previous post today) then maybe we can just

feed him solid food, which should stay down better, then we can work on

expanding his stomach. I don't much like the idea of feeding a kid on sugar

anyway, but there's a Maslow's triangle involved: first you keep the kid

alive, then you get him to gain weight, then you start working on making

things more ideal. 2 years ago he was below the 0'th percentile weight

wise: when we got it up to 50% the docs were amazed ( " That NEVER happens! " ).

What we really want is to just grind up a " normal " meal and get him used to

regular food. So now I need to work on tube issues.

Which is still my original point: why are the doctors so content to keep

feeding a kid out of a can? If I was the doc, I'd be pestering the parents

to start making some nice real, ground up food and give them some

suggestions for nutrition and digestability. But as it is, even the

" nutritionist " is pretty much content to use " meal replacers " .

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...