Guest guest Posted April 22, 2002 Report Share Posted April 22, 2002 > I eat commercial ground beef hamburgers and tend to like them rare. I'm aware of the danger of the practice but as of yet, I'm still alive. I am trying to switch over to all grassfed but I'm wondering about the E. Coli thing there too. Couldn't it still be contaminated if it is butchered in a large slaughter house? I got that impression from reading " Fast Food Nation " . Does everyone here eating raw meat know where it is butchered? > --snip-- I have eaten the so-called " natural beef " here in Oregon raw with no apparent illness from e. coli. I currently eat grass fed bison from North Star also with no illness from e. coli. Remember that the most virulent e. coli is the strain that is acid resistant since it evolved in the unnaturally acid intestines of the grain fed stear. Otherwise, your own stomach acid has the chance to stop ordinary e. coli coming from grass fed meat, even if contaminated during slaughter. Portland, OR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2002 Report Share Posted April 22, 2002 >>>I have eaten the so-called " natural beef " here in Oregon raw with no apparent illness from e. coli. I currently eat grass fed bison from North Star also with no illness from e. coli. Remember that the most virulent e. coli is the strain that is acid resistant since it evolved in the unnaturally acid intestines of the grain fed stear. Otherwise, your own stomach acid has the chance to stop ordinary e. coli coming from grass fed meat, even if contaminated during slaughter. ***Right, that strain is particularly dangerous because it resists our HCL, which I believe is in the range of approx pH 1-3 (in healthy individuals). But the other issue is *amount* of e.coli present. And yes, grass fed has far fewer e.coli organisms. (See below.) Even if it get's cross contaminated at the slaughterhouse, I doubt grassfed would still harbor the *amounts* present in grain fed. Healthy people should be able to deal with a moderate amount of e.coli organisms, but I'm thinking that larger amounts of 0157:h7, for example, would be problematic even for healthy folks. In practicle terms, I don't consider my gut to be very healthy after years of a less than optimal diet and lifestyle, so I'm trying to make sensible choices in this regard. ----------------------------------- http://www.eatwild.com/human_nutrition1.htm The deadliest form of E. Coli is more common than originally thought. Fortunately, grassfed animals are much less likely to transmit the disease. A study in the March 28th, 2000 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences reports that as many as one out of every three cattle may play host to the deadliest strain of E. coli bacteria ( 0157:H) This is ten times higher than earlier estimates. As explained in more detail in Why Grassfed Is Best!, feeding cattle their natural diet of grass instead of grain greatly reduces the risk of disease transmission. Why? First, it keeps the overall bacteria count low. Second, it prevents the bacteria from becoming acid resistant. Acid-resistant bacteria are far more likely to survive the acidity of our normal digestive juices and cause disease. The first graph below illustrates the absolute numbers of E.Coli bacteria found in grassfed versus grainfed animals. The second graph shows how many of the bacteria are likely to withstand our gastric juices. (Note: Grassfed animals have so few acid-resistant bacteria that the number fails to register on the scale of the graph.) You should still take the normal precautions when handling and cooking grassfed meat, however. As few as ten E.Coli bacteria can cause disease in people with weakened immune systems. (Diez-, F., et al. (1998). " Grain-feeding and the dissemination of acid-resistant Escherichia coli from Cattle. " Science 281, 1666-8.) ***Suze's note: scroll down to the middle of the page to see the graphs that accompany this abstract - words can't adequately paint a picture of the stark difference in e.coli numbers between pastured and grain fed cattle. e-coli count: grain-fed: 6,300,000 grass-fed: 2000 number of e-coli that would likely survive in our digestive tract: grain-fed: 250,000 grass-fed: too few to register on graph There are no typos here - these are the numbers. ----------------------------------- A few related articles http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Sept98/acid.relief.hrs.html Acid relief for O157:H7 Simple change in cattle diets could cut E. coli infection, USDA and Cornell scientists report ----------------------------------- The study referenced above: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:sHx25S39AKEC:www.fsci.umn.edu/Francisco _Diez/science.pdf+Grain-feeding+and+the+dissemination+of+acid-resistant+Esch erichia+coli+from+Cattle & hl=en Grain Feeding and the Dissemination of Acid-Resistant Escherichia coli from Cattle Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2002 Report Share Posted April 22, 2002 Hey Northstar Bison eaters. I can personelly vouch for northstar bison slaughter house, it is my slaughter house as well and i grew up in one and can tell you they are very good, and a very clean operation.. Tim from Clearview Suze Fisher wrote: > >>>I have eaten the so-called " natural beef " here in Oregon raw with no > apparent illness from e. coli. I currently eat grass fed bison from > North Star also with no illness from e. coli. Remember that the most > virulent e. coli is the strain that is acid resistant since it evolved > in the unnaturally acid intestines of the grain fed stear. Otherwise, > your own stomach acid has the chance to stop ordinary e. coli coming > from grass fed meat, even if contaminated during slaughter. > > ***Right, that strain is particularly dangerous because it resists our HCL, > which I believe is in the range of approx pH 1-3 (in healthy individuals). > But the other issue is *amount* of e.coli present. And yes, grass fed has > far fewer e.coli organisms. (See below.) Even if it get's cross contaminated > at the slaughterhouse, I doubt grassfed would still harbor the *amounts* > present in grain fed. Healthy people should be able to deal with a moderate > amount of e.coli organisms, but I'm thinking that larger amounts of 0157:h7, > for example, would be problematic even for healthy folks. In practicle > terms, I don't consider my gut to be very healthy after years of a less than > optimal diet and lifestyle, so I'm trying to make sensible choices in this > regard. > > ----------------------------------- > > http://www.eatwild.com/human_nutrition1.htm > The deadliest form of E. Coli is more common than originally thought. > Fortunately, grassfed animals are much less likely to transmit the disease. > > A study in the March 28th, 2000 issue of the Proceedings of the National > Academy of Sciences reports that as many as one out of every three cattle > may play host to the deadliest strain of E. coli bacteria ( 0157:H) This > is ten times higher than earlier estimates. > > As explained in more detail in Why Grassfed Is Best!, feeding cattle their > natural diet of grass instead of grain greatly reduces the risk of disease > transmission. Why? First, it keeps the overall bacteria count low. > Second, it prevents the bacteria from becoming acid resistant. > Acid-resistant bacteria are far more likely to survive the acidity of our > normal digestive juices and cause disease. The first graph below > illustrates the absolute numbers of E.Coli bacteria found in grassfed versus > grainfed animals. The second graph shows how many of the bacteria are > likely to withstand our gastric juices. (Note: Grassfed animals have so few > acid-resistant bacteria that the number fails to register on the scale of > the graph.) > > You should still take the normal precautions when handling and cooking > grassfed meat, however. As few as ten E.Coli bacteria can cause disease in > people with weakened immune systems. > > (Diez-, F., et al. (1998). " Grain-feeding and the dissemination of > acid-resistant Escherichia coli from Cattle. " Science 281, 1666-8.) > > ***Suze's note: scroll down to the middle of the page to see the graphs that > accompany this abstract - words can't adequately paint a picture of the > stark difference in e.coli numbers between pastured and grain fed cattle. > > e-coli count: > > grain-fed: 6,300,000 > grass-fed: 2000 > > number of e-coli that would likely survive in our digestive tract: > > grain-fed: 250,000 > grass-fed: too few to register on graph > > There are no typos here - these are the numbers. > > ----------------------------------- > > A few related articles > > http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Sept98/acid.relief.hrs.html > Acid relief for O157:H7 > Simple change in cattle diets could cut E. coli infection, USDA and Cornell > scientists report > > ----------------------------------- > > The study referenced above: > http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:sHx25S39AKEC:www.fsci.umn.edu/Francisco > _Diez/science.pdf+Grain-feeding+and+the+dissemination+of+acid-resistant+Esch > erichia+coli+from+Cattle & hl=en > Grain Feeding and the Dissemination of Acid-Resistant Escherichia coli from > Cattle > > Suze Fisher > Web Design & Development > http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ > mailto:s.fisher22@... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2002 Report Share Posted April 22, 2002 At 07:17 AM 4/22/02 -0500, you wrote: >Hey Northstar Bison eaters. , it is my slaughter >house as well and i grew up in one >Tim from Clearview I did too, Tim. Beside the one man slaughterhouse my Dad worked. My oldest brother and I would go there every afternoon before I went to school while the youngest sister and brother napped. The owner couldn't afford to tile it in the early 60's so that was the end of it. Wanita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2002 Report Share Posted April 22, 2002 At 07:03 AM 4/22/2002 -0400, you wrote: >***Right, that strain is particularly dangerous because it resists our HCL, >which I believe is in the range of approx pH 1-3 (in healthy individuals). >But the other issue is *amount* of e.coli present. And yes, grass fed has >far fewer e.coli organisms. (See below.) Even if it get's cross contaminated >at the slaughterhouse, I doubt grassfed would still harbor the *amounts* >present in grain fed. Healthy people should be able to deal with a moderate >amount of e.coli organisms, but I'm thinking that larger amounts of 0157:h7, >for example, would be problematic even for healthy folks. In practicle >terms, I don't consider my gut to be very healthy after years of a less than >optimal diet and lifestyle, so I'm trying to make sensible choices in this >regard. Also it's good to remember that NONE of the folks who got sick from e-coli were eating RAW meat. Hard as it may be to believe, eating RAW hamburger is likely safer than partially cooked hamburger. Some scientist once said you could probably eat a whole raw salmonella-contaminated raw chicken and not get sick -- the problem comes about when the raw chicken touches the dressing, which then sits at 90 degrees for a few hours (because of poor cooking) and the bacteria populations explode. Or touches the potato salad, which is nice and wet and also at room temp. If the hamburger was ground at 50 degrees (meat packing plants are usually COLD), and then frozen, it might be contaminated, but the bacteria count won't explode unless you warm it up and let it set for a bit. So cooking a hamburger on the outside and leaving the middle rare (like you would a steak) just sets up a nice growing environment for the e-coli or salmonella or whatever. It's a good idea to keep the raw hamburger away from everything that is staying at room temp. Heidi Schuppenhauer Trillium Custom Software Inc. heidis@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 At 10:26 PM 4/21/2002 -0500, you wrote: >I eat commercial ground beef hamburgers and tend to like them rare. I'm >aware of the danger of the practice but as of yet, I'm still alive. I am >trying to switch over to all grassfed but I'm wondering about the E. Coli >thing there too. Couldn't it still be contaminated if it is butchered in >a large slaughter house? I got that impression from reading " Fast Food >Nation " . Does everyone here eating raw meat know where it is butchered? Could marinate raw meat overnight in a vinegar based marinade and kill bacteria? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 >From: Alec <me@...> >Could marinate raw meat overnight in a vinegar based marinade and kill >bacteria? It might wipe out the garden-variety E. coli, but I don't see how it could do much to the acid-resistant ones. If anything, I suspect that it would increase the number of acid-resistant bacteria by eliminating the competition. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 >>>It might wipe out the garden-variety E. coli, but I don't see how it could do much to the acid-resistant ones. If anything, I suspect that it would increase the number of acid-resistant bacteria by eliminating the competition. ***Wow! That never ocurred to me, but it makes sense. Except, I imagine that lactobacilli, bifidus and some other friendly bacteria have got to be able to survive stomach acid degradation, otherwise they'd never make it to the small intestine, which they do, or at least some of them do (or we wouldn't have them). Suze Fisher Web Design & Development http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/ mailto:s.fisher22@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2002 Report Share Posted May 4, 2002 On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 11:38:22 -0700 Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...> writes: At 07:03 AM 4/22/2002 -0400, you wrote: <snip> Also it's good to remember that NONE of the folks who got sick from e-coli were eating RAW meat. Hard as it may be to believe, eating RAW hamburger is likely safer than partially cooked hamburger. Some scientist once said you could probably eat a whole raw salmonella-contaminated raw chicken and not get sick -- the problem comes about when the raw chicken touches the dressing, which then sits at 90 degrees for a few hours (because of poor cooking) and the bacteria populations explode. Or touches the potato salad, which is nice and wet and also at room temp. *****According to Aajonus Vonderplanitz and others, tests have been done that show 99% of foreign matter passes out of the system when meat is eaten raw, but when it is cooked it allows for a much faster rate of bacterial growth and the foreign matter is " lodged " in the meat. So the scientist' comments seem to ring true to some. Don't ask me how to document this, I do not know. Bianca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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