Re: Copying the vegetarians? (was: small farmers surviving ...)

[Guest guest]

>Fast growth amongst the college students

>that haven't learned to think critically (no offense to any college

>students on the list, just thinking about my own experience!), or

>well-referenced science devoid of misleading statements and half-

>truths?

Well, duh -- well-referenced science devoid of misleading statements and

half-truths. The calves statement on the site obviously needs to

change. But even based on her response and other people mentioning

similarly troubling incidents, I seriously doubt SF is trying to create a

cult at the expense of truth. If she's doing just about everything

herself, she's bound to be enormously overworked. It would help if we

could enlist the donations of a couple really rich people -- no strings

attached, of course <g> -- so that the WAPF could staff up a bit.

-

[Guest guest]

>

> >Fast growth amongst the college students

> >that haven't learned to think critically (no offense to any college

> >students on the list, just thinking about my own experience!), or

> >well-referenced science devoid of misleading statements and half-

> >truths?

>

> Well, duh -- well-referenced science devoid of misleading

statements and

> half-truths. The calves statement on the site obviously needs to

> change. But even based on her response and other people mentioning

> similarly troubling incidents, I seriously doubt SF is trying to

create a

> cult at the expense of truth. If she's doing just about everything

> herself, she's bound to be enormously overworked. It would help if

we

> could enlist the donations of a couple really rich people -- no

strings

> attached, of course <g> -- so that the WAPF could staff up a bit.

Her response was to ask us to look into that study - but Carmen

already did that and pretty thoroughly. Her response should have

been, " Thanks for bringing this to my attention and the statement

will be changed. "

[Guest guest]

> > Carmen

> > I said a month or so ago the calves fed pastuerized milk die

before

> maturity

> > because they were ONLY fed pastureized milk, no grass no grain.

> > yes most farms feed pastuerized milk to calves but most only for

> the period of

> > 12 days and then they are fed grain and hay.

> > So their in lies the " spin " yes they will die if fed only

> pastuerized milk for

> > a long time!

>

> In which case the statement should either be:

>

> 1. Calves that aren't fed grass or grains die before maturity

>

> or

>

> 2. Calves fed raw milk survive to maturity even without eating grass

> or grains.

>

>

> Is this a vegetarian community? I can imagine that 20 or 30 years

ago

> they had these same debates and collectively decided that being a

> little fast and loose with the facts and writing off contradictory

> data as 'meat and dairy propaganda' was the best way to bring as

many

> people into the fold as possible. It worked... but at a price. Most

> people educated about nutrition know many vegetarian myths.

>

> Which way do we want to go? Fast growth amongst the college students

> that haven't learned to think critically (no offense to any college

> students on the list, just thinking about my own experience!), or

> well-referenced science devoid of misleading statements and half-

> truths?

>

>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>A few messages back Belinda mentioned clostrum (sp?)

being fed newborn calves. Clostrum is a significant factor in the

calves survival. Good thought Belinda, something to the effect that

w/o colostrum none of the calves reach maturity. Keep in mind this is

discussion. TIA. Regards, Dennis

[Guest guest]

<< " 3. To minimize any possible exposure to disease through its

mother's

milk, we quickly separate the newborn calf from its mother, and milk

the mother into a stainless steel bucket, then pasteurize the milk

prior

to feeding the calf. This milk is known as colostrum (rich in fat,

protein

and antibodies). Calves are fed this pasteurized milk for 60 days. "

Full Article Here:

http://www.fiscalinifarms.com/food_safety.htm

>>

[Guest guest]

> << " 3. To minimize any possible exposure to disease through its

> mother's

> milk, we quickly separate the newborn calf from its mother, and milk

> the mother into a stainless steel bucket, then pasteurize the milk

> prior

> to feeding the calf. This milk is known as colostrum (rich in fat,

> protein

> and antibodies). Calves are fed this pasteurized milk for 60 days. "

>

> Full Article Here:

>

> http://www.fiscalinifarms.com/food_safety.htm

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Colostrum is not pasteurized. The newborn calf nurses

almost as soon as the cow cleans him/her. The cow produces colostrum

for several days and our calf drank (nursed) from it's mother the

first few days to get this colostrum milk. After that I fed him (bull

w/o spin) with a bottle and several days later a bottle and a nipple.

Several days later I taught him to drink from a bucket. And now

nearly a year later he still wants to nurse. Actually I thought

someone uesd the method you mentioned (7032 #3) to feed kids (newborn

goats). Anyhow I'll look at that posting (7032). Dennis

[Guest guest]

> Carmen

> I said a month or so ago the calves fed pastuerized milk die before

maturity

> because they were ONLY fed pastureized milk, no grass no grain.

> yes most farms feed pastuerized milk to calves but most only for

the period of

> 12 days and then they are fed grain and hay.

> So their in lies the " spin " yes they will die if fed only

pastuerized milk for

> a long time!

Oh. Actually that point was discussed in a number of posts. I think it's a

moot point. I don't imagine a farmer is going to attempt to raise a calf to

maturity on any liquid diet whether it be milk replacer, pasteurized milk OR

even raw milk. All calves are introduced to solid food at 10-12 days.

Carmen

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Colostrum is not pasteurized. The newborn calf nurses

almost as soon as the cow cleans him/her. The cow produces colostrum

for several days and our calf drank (nursed) from it's mother the

first few days to get this colostrum milk >>>>

You didn't pasteurize YOUR colostrum, but indeed colostrum is frequently

pasteurized. There are even colostrom replacers which are dried and

reconstituted much the same as milk replacers. I'm not commenting on whether

or not one is better than the other, just that even colostrom is sometimes

pasteurized. Again, folks that raise goats in particular don't even allow

kids to get raw colostrom because CAE can be passed to the kid through the

raw colostrom.

Carmen