Re: OK, yet another coconut oil question

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/30/2002 9:12:08 AM Central Daylight Time,

mclcdcmcmc@... writes:

> So, since I do not have access to lard or tallow,

>

> Why not? Can't we just buy lard at the grocery store? Is that stuff

> bad? I thought lard was lard. I've been trying to use the grocery store

> lard but the smell disgusts me. Is there a lard out there that doesn't

> smell like a rendering plant?

>

> C.

>

In my mind the most important place to eat organic is fat. The lard in the

stores are from some of the most poorly kept animals that live on this earth.

You don't want to use that. The 5 gallon lard bucket that sits in our kitchen

from one butchering season to the next begins to smell bad after sitting

there for about 10 months. That might tell you something about what the store

is selling you.

Belinda

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/30/2002 10:55:23 AM Central Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> The stuff at the grocery store isn't really very good. Rick Bayliss

> (Mexican food writer) says the " real " Mexican lard is slightly roasty and

> good to cook with.

>

> So ... when I bought my last side of beef I asked the packer to give me all

>

> the fat too (which is free: they just throw it out otherwise). Boy did I

> get it! 4 boxes worth. I chopped it up and melted it slowly to render out

> the lard, which, I'm told, keeps forever even at room temp. It is roasty

> smelling, does not smell like a rendering plant! Though our whole house

> smelled like roasty fat for 2 days while I melted it!

>

> I probably should have kept some out as raw fat and frozen it too, but it

> was a BIG beef and I ran out of freezer space. For cooking, you can just

> put a chunk of fat in the pan, straight out of the freezer, and melt it,

> without even bothering with the " making lard " step.

>

>

>

> Heidi Schuppenhauer

>

Heidi,

What you have isn't lard, it is tallow. Tallow comes from beef fat and lard

comes from hog fat. I wouldn't believe the " forever " part of it keeping but

I'd say a year, after that if not frozen you'll start to get an off smell.

Belinda

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/30/2002 11:33:54 AM Central Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

>

> Hmmm. That's what Mom said too, I should have remembered it. Do tallow and

> lard cook up about the same? I prefer coconut oil for frying, but the

> Mexican recipes call for lard. My original idea was to use it for pemmican,

>

> though the pemmican I've had so far doesn't really excite my taste buds.

>

> -- Heidi

>

We don't have enough fat off the pastured beef to make much tallow so we use

the fat when we make burger from goat meat, no fat there! Sooo I don't know. <

G> We only use lard.

Belinda

[Guest guest]

So, since I do not have access to lard or tallow,

Why not? Can't we just buy lard at the grocery store? Is that stuff bad?

I thought lard was lard. I've been trying to use the grocery store lard but the

smell disgusts me. Is there a lard out there that doesn't smell like a

rendering plant?

C.

[Guest guest]

As far as I know, all commercially sold lard is hydrogenated--a big nutrition

no-no. The other issue is that you don't know what the pigs were fed--there was

a thread a few weeks back about pork and the dangers of eating ill-fed hogs. I

don't know the details, but I concluded that eating pork and lard was a bad idea

unless you know your food source VERY well. I think a few people on this list

make their own lard (Belinda?)--THAT I would eat. But until I move out of the

city, I'm staying away from pork and lard.

----- Original Message -----

From: Conway

Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 10:04 AM

Subject: Re: OK, yet another coconut oil question

So, since I do not have access to lard or tallow,

Why not? Can't we just buy lard at the grocery store? Is that stuff

bad? I thought lard was lard. I've been trying to use the grocery store lard

but the smell disgusts me. Is there a lard out there that doesn't smell like a

rendering plant?

C.

[Guest guest]

> I eat lots of butter too, but boy oh boy do I love olive oil.

> Not to mention all the Italian food that goes with it (haven't

> been able to give up the pasta yet...)

I'd look more suspiciously at the pasta than at the olive oil...

> Can someone educate my on why I should buy the expensive Tropical

> Traditions stuff? Why is it better than Spectrum (available at my coop)?

> I found some pretty cheap (8oz for $3) coco. oil at an Indian market--

> it has just the faintest smell of coconut and when the weather was really

> hot (90s) a week or so ago, it became completely clear and totally liquid

> --looked a bit like Wesson oil. I haven't really eaten the stuff as I am

> not sure about the quality.

There isn't really a firm answer as to why you should use TT or another

unheated, unrefined coconut oil. Some people have had what they consider to

be better luck with using it therapeutically in the diets of severely ill

people. On a somewhat common sense level, completely unrefined oils like TT

will have compounds in them that are missing from refined foods. Those

compounds often matter even if we don't know yet what they do. The spectrum

stuff is semi-refined if I remember correctly. I don't know for sure what

semi-refined means, but I know it's not unrefined. Even Omega Nutrition's

product, which is supposedly " unrefined " , actually gets deodorized first

because it's made from a lower grade of coconut called copra. TT is made

from a higher grade and hence doesn't need any processing other than

extraction and separation from the water and fibers.

> I guess I just need to justify the high price

> of good quality coco. oil. Also, does the TT stuff smell like coconut?

> If I fry corn tortillas in it will they taste like coconut?

I personally haven't used TT yet. I occasionally use the spectrum stuff for

frying things. If you're just going to use it for things like frying, I

can't imagine there'll be much difference. For low temperature uses though

there may be an advantage to TT. As to coconut taste and smell, it's my

understanding that TT does taste and smell like coconut, but I don't know if

that smell and flavor survives the heat when you cook with it. Maybe

somebody else who's used it? ... Bianca...

[Guest guest]

At 09:04 AM 4/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:

>Why not? Can't we just buy lard at the grocery store? Is that stuff

>bad? I thought lard was lard. I've been trying to use the grocery store

>lard but the smell disgusts me. Is there a lard out there that doesn't

>smell like a rendering plant?

>

> C.

The stuff at the grocery store isn't really very good. Rick Bayliss

(Mexican food writer) says the " real " Mexican lard is slightly roasty and

good to cook with.

So ... when I bought my last side of beef I asked the packer to give me all

the fat too (which is free: they just throw it out otherwise). Boy did I

get it! 4 boxes worth. I chopped it up and melted it slowly to render out

the lard, which, I'm told, keeps forever even at room temp. It is roasty

smelling, does not smell like a rendering plant! Though our whole house

smelled like roasty fat for 2 days while I melted it!

I probably should have kept some out as raw fat and frozen it too, but it

was a BIG beef and I ran out of freezer space. For cooking, you can just

put a chunk of fat in the pan, straight out of the freezer, and melt it,

without even bothering with the " making lard " step.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

At 10:28 AM 4/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:

> > I guess I just need to justify the high price

> > of good quality coco. oil. Also, does the TT stuff smell like coconut?

> > If I fry corn tortillas in it will they taste like coconut?

Yes, they do taste slightly of coconut. But it's kind of addicting: I'm

getting to like the coconut smell a lot. I use the TT stuff exclusively --

I bought some commercial coconut oil and I think it was hydrogenated. At

any rate, when it melted and solidified it got clumps of some REALLY solid

stuff in it. WHY do they hydogenate the stuff? I don't know.

The Spectrum stuff is ok, but the cost works out about the same buying one

gallon of TT vs 8oz of Specturm. Anyway, it REALLY gets your metabolism

going: after my eggs in coconut oil I'm HOT like I just ran a marathon. It

cooks great in cookies and anything else: it does smoke at a lower temp so

you need to be a little careful.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

Strictly speaking lard is rendered pork fat...not beef fat. Rendered beef

fat is tallow. I believe that tallow is more solid at room temp than lard

is, and I think it also has a higher smoke point than lard. That's because

lard isn't usually quite as saturated as tallow is.

[Guest guest]

At 12:12 PM 4/30/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>Heidi,

>

>What you have isn't lard, it is tallow. Tallow comes from beef fat and lard

>comes from hog fat. I wouldn't believe the " forever " part of it keeping but

>I'd say a year, after that if not frozen you'll start to get an off smell.

>

>

>Belinda

Hmmm. That's what Mom said too, I should have remembered it. Do tallow and

lard cook up about the same? I prefer coconut oil for frying, but the

Mexican recipes call for lard. My original idea was to use it for pemmican,

though the pemmican I've had so far doesn't really excite my taste buds.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

All the packages in the grocery stores that say lard are from beef fat....go

figure. When Mom made lard from pork fat it always went in the refrigerator or

freezer the next day after cooling on the counter overnight.

On the Spectrum coconut oil. It is not unrefined like their other oils. Not

quite hydrogenated but almost. I noticed that Sun & Earth cleaning products

use

coconut oil and orange oil as ingredients. Both are germ killing. Anyway I

clean private homes and am trying to get away from standard household

chemicals. Will likely use Spectrum to make my own.

Wanita

At 09:38 AM 4/30/02 -0700, you wrote:

>At 12:12 PM 4/30/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>>Heidi,

>>

>>What you have isn't lard, it is tallow. Tallow comes from beef fat and lard

>>comes from hog fat. I wouldn't believe the " forever " part of it keeping but

>>I'd say a year, after that if not frozen you'll start to get an off smell.

>>

>>

>>Belinda

>

>Hmmm. That's what Mom said too, I should have remembered it. Do tallow and

>lard cook up about the same? I prefer coconut oil for frying, but the

>Mexican recipes call for lard. My original idea was to use it for pemmican,

>though the pemmican I've had so far doesn't really excite my taste buds.

>

>-- Heidi

>

[Guest guest]

It will go rancid at room temp, Heidi. The main purpose of hydrogenation

was to

prolong the shelf life because fats do go rancid at room temp. All but coconut

oil but we know that story.

Wanita

At 08:55 AM 4/30/02 -0700, Heidi wrote:

I chopped it up and melted it slowly to render out

>the lard, which, I'm told, keeps forever even at room temp.

[Guest guest]

-

>Can someone educate my on why I should buy the expensive Tropical

>Traditions stuff?

It's delicious, the best-tasting coconut oil I've ever found. It has a

rich coconut aroma and a really excellent -- though not at all, to my

taste, overwhelming -- flavor.

But maybe more to the point, Spectrum and even Omega are RBD oils --

refined, bleached and deodorized. They're not hydrogenated (coconut oil is

one of the most saturated oils on earth, around 96% IIRC, but remarkably,

some companies still hydrogenate it) but they are made from copra instead

of from fresh coconuts like TT. Copra is dried coconut meat made from, I

believe, a lower grade of coconut, and the reason the oil extracted from

copra needs to be refined, bleached and deodorized is that the copra has

generally gotten moldy and rotten before processing. That's why there's

little or no coconut flavor left in RBD oils. Personally, I thought

Omega's just tasted nasty.

Because of the way it's processed and the fact it's from fresh coconuts,

TT's oil ought to be lots more nutritious. The only real competitor is

Coconut Oil Supreme (I forget the URL, but I'm sure others will have it

handy) which is made by centrifuging the oil to remove the moisture instead

of fermenting the coconut and then heating the skimmed oil somewhat. That

could, theoretically, yield a superior oil, but there are apparently some

concerns about their methods (like whether their coconuts are organic, how

much heat the oil is actually exposed to) and the sample I got didn't

actually taste quite as good.

-

[Guest guest]

Wanita:

That's kind of what I figured (so I did stick as much as I thought *I*

would use in the freezer, and the rest is pretty cold for now, hopefully

the freezer will be emptier pretty soon -- there's no way I can eat 40lbs

of tallow in a year so I think the dog and birds will get a lot). But all

this talk about pemmican keeping for years and years .... did they just eat

rancid off-tasting pemmican? (I guess if you are out wandering the desert

anything tastes good).

Also, I've heard of using tallow for candles but this is just too soft.

This melts almost at room temperature, like coconut oil. Maybe because it's

from Longhorn -- I've heard the fat chemistry is quite different. It was a

big old steer, most of the ones we've gotten were much younger and smaller

and leaner.

-- Heidi

At 02:25 PM 4/30/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>It will go rancid at room temp, Heidi. The main purpose of hydrogenation

>was to

>prolong the shelf life because fats do go rancid at room temp. All but coconut

>oil but we know that story.

>Wanita

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

At 09:04 AM 4/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:

> So, since I do not have access to lard or tallow,

>

> Why not? Can't we just buy lard at the grocery store? Is that

> stuff bad? I thought lard was lard. I've been trying to use the grocery

> store lard but the smell disgusts me. Is there a lard out there that

> doesn't smell like a rendering plant?

>

> C.

Your first clue that grocery store lard isn't any good for you is that it

comes as a pure white concoction in a box on the shelf that doesn't need to

be refrigerated and has no expiration date.

[Guest guest]

At 09:12 AM 4/30/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>I've been following the thread on fat and weight loss (I need to lose 5-10

>pounds), and I think olive oil might be my problem...I eat lots of butter

>too, but boy oh boy do I love olive oil. Not to mention all the Italian

>food that goes with it (haven't been able to give up the pasta yet...)

According to NT olive oil is a long chain fatty acid that is more likely to

cause weight gain than butter. But you also have to consider what you are

using it on. Pasta is grains. The so called diet experts tell us to avoid

fat and eat lots of grains. But if that makes sense then consider cattle

are grain fed to fatten them up quickly, much quicker than grazing them on

grass.

[Guest guest]

At 09:04 AM 4/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:

> So, since I do not have access to lard or tallow,

>

> Why not? Can't we just buy lard at the grocery store? Is that

> stuff bad? I thought lard was lard. I've been trying to use the grocery

> store lard but the smell disgusts me. Is there a lard out there that

> doesn't smell like a rendering plant?

>

> C.

Your first clue that grocery store lard isn't any good for you is that it

comes as a pure white concoction in a box on the shelf that doesn't need to

be refrigerated and has no expiration date.

[Guest guest]

I know the pasta is a problem...but I make the most amazing sauces to go with

it! I only eat organic whole wheat (I don't have a problem with wheat) and I

try to have only one pasta night a week. I'm still trying to switch over to NT

and pasta used to be a mainstay here. I guess it's one of those " vices " I'm

just not willing to totally cut out.

According to NT olive oil is a long chain fatty acid that is more likely to

cause weight gain than butter. But you also have to consider what you are

using it on. Pasta is grains. The so called diet experts tell us to avoid

fat and eat lots of grains. But if that makes sense then consider cattle

are grain fed to fatten them up quickly, much quicker than grazing them on

grass.

[Guest guest]

At 08:46 AM 5/1/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>I know the pasta is a problem...but I make the most amazing sauces to go

>with it! I only eat organic whole wheat (I don't have a problem with

>wheat) and I try to have only one pasta night a week. I'm still trying to

>switch over to NT and pasta used to be a mainstay here. I guess it's one

>of those " vices " I'm just not willing to totally cut out.

>

>

,

What may be more important is not how much pasta you eat but how many miles

a week you run (-: (-:

[Guest guest]

> I know the pasta is a problem...but I make the most amazing

> sauces to go with it! I only eat organic whole wheat (I don't

> have a problem with wheat) and I try to have only one pasta

> night a week. I'm still trying to switch over to NT and pasta

> used to be a mainstay here. I guess it's one of those " vices "

> I'm just not willing to totally cut out.

Have you tried spaghetti squash or Pappadini lentil pasta as alternatives

yet? I don't see any reason to abandon pasta entirely either, but you might

find it easier to reduce it by quite a bit using those two as

alternatives...not that once a week really seems like a lot. The spaghetti

squash is really good with just about any kind of sauce, but the lentil

pasta is best used with creamy, cheesy or unusually thick and hearty

sauces...in my opinion anyway. Regular tomato-based sauces aren't quite

substantial enough to stand up to the texture and flavor of the lentil

pasta.

Also, if you have a pasta maker, you can make your own pasta using

combinations of regular flour, fava bean flour, garbanzo flour, etc. You

can even properly soak them (just let the prepared dough sit for 12 hours or

so before making it into pasta) if you make it yourself.

[Guest guest]

At 01:55 PM 4/30/02 -0700, Heidi wrote:

>

>Wanita:

But all

>this talk about pemmican keeping for years and years .... did they just eat

>rancid off-tasting pemmican? (I guess if you are out wandering the desert

>anything tastes good).

..>

>-- Heidi

Hi Heidi,

I don't know for sure but it makes sense that in the northern latitudes

pemmican would be made for use throughout the winter. I do know that in this

area corn was stored underground. Birch bark used for basket making contains

insect repellants and a natural preservative. The closest fat to wild game fat

is grassfed fat but it isn't the same because acorns, bark whatever isn't in

the diet. Fat does have some preserving qualities of its own. Combined with

dried meat and berries it should last. Energy was needed in the winter to keep

warm. It makes sense again that pemmican would be eaten year round, carbing up

for winter would be important with berry/ nut harvests, fresh would be

preferred during warmer seasons and that it would be most important for

hunting parties and those out to trade with neighboring tribes.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

>>>>The closest fat to wild game fat

is grassfed fat but it isn't the same because acorns, bark whatever isn't in

the diet. Fat does have some preserving qualities of its own.

***any fat that contains unsaturated fatty acids (as wild game fat does) and

is from an animal on a natural diet, will contain vit e, which helps to

prevent it from going rancid. Nature has built in checks and balances

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

At 10:19 AM 5/3/02 -0400, Suze wrote:

>>>>>The closest fat to wild game fat

>is grassfed fat but it isn't the same because acorns, bark whatever isn't in

>the diet. Fat does have some preserving qualities of its own.

>

>

>***any fat that contains unsaturated fatty acids (as wild game fat does) and

>is from an animal on a natural diet, will contain vit e, which helps to

>prevent it from going rancid. Nature has built in checks and balances

So it seems Heidi's grassfed tallow is fine at room temp.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

>***any fat that contains unsaturated fatty acids (as wild game fat does)

and

>is from an animal on a natural diet, will contain vit e, which helps to

>prevent it from going rancid. Nature has built in checks and balances

>>>>So it seems Heidi's grassfed tallow is fine at room temp.

****Not if the oxygen and light it's exposed to depletes the vit e content,

which i think it would do over time. THere may be other antioxidants

proctecting it that I'm not aware of though. Cholesterol?

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

At 10:14 PM 5/3/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>****Not if the oxygen and light it's exposed to depletes the vit e content,

>which i think it would do over time. THere may be other antioxidants

>proctecting it that I'm not aware of though. Cholesterol?

Traditionally, you are supposed to store tallow in a crock with a cork seal

-- which would take care of the light and oxygen.

I don't know what you store coconut oil in traditionally -- a coconut, maybe?

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...