salmonella poisoning on Frontline

[Guest guest]

> Did anyone see the meat industry story on Frontline last night?

Hi Suze:

I watched it. It was, more or less, out of curiousity to see what the

sheep are being fed.

As expected, it was only concerned with food " safety " . We don't need

to worry as meat can be made " safe " to eat with irradiation.

Whether it's this issue or the GMO issue, all that matters is that

the food is safe to eat or not. Whether or not the food has any

nutritional value is not a concern about food in America.

Neither side in this debate realizes it's not what is in our food

that harms us, but what isn't in our food.

A healthy person can eat " contaminated " food and not get sick. As

Albrecht said, " It's not the overpowering invader we must

fear, but the weakened condition of the victim. "

Chi

[Guest guest]

>>>>Hi Suze:

I watched it. It was, more or less, out of curiousity to see what the

sheep are being fed.

***What ARE the sheep being fed? I must've slept through that part.

>>>>As expected, it was only concerned with food " safety " . We don't need

to worry as meat can be made " safe " to eat with irradiation.

***Phew! Thank god. I feel safe now

>>>>A healthy person can eat " contaminated " food and not get sick. As

Albrecht said, " It's not the overpowering invader we must

fear, but the weakened condition of the victim. "

****I agree with this about 75-95%. I fully realize that it's the

terrain(health of the body) that counts most (as opposed to the germ). But,

i think that a very healthy person might still get sick from ingesting

enough e.coli 0157:H7, and perhaps some other frankensteinian bugs we've

created with the madness of modern factory farms. I'm not a proponent of the

germ theory of disease, but I do think that the scales could tip even with a

healthy person who is exposed to an excessive amount of 'superbugs.'

Although, I could be swayed to believe otherwise. Hey, I don't suppose

anyone's going to conduct a study on this! Or maybe some of the outbreaks

*have been* clandestine studies..?

But yes, of course, the focus is not where it should be - on the *quality*

of the food we raise and consume. I was just at an NT potluck here in

southern maine, and the farmers were complaining that the USDA keeps

changing the rules for slaughtering livestock and with each new change, it's

getting harder and harder to maintain a small farm. The newest thing, I

believe, is that the farms are only allowed to process 1,000 chickens per

year, no matter if it's for their own consumption, or for sale. After 1,000

they have to take them to be butchered at a USDA facility, of which there

are only a few in this area. I know of at least one chicken farm that's

stopped chicken farming because this new rule makes it too difficult for

them to process the amount of birds they need to in order to make a go of

it.

The way things are going, I wonder how many small farms will be left in

another decade...

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>The way things are going, I wonder how many small farms will be left in

>another decade...

I agree, but the more of us who patronize small farms, the more political

clout we'll be able to wield.

-

[Guest guest]

At 10:04 PM 4/19/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>I'm not a proponent of the

>germ theory of disease, but I do think that the scales could tip even with a

>healthy person who is exposed to an excessive amount of 'superbugs.'

>Although, I could be swayed to believe otherwise. Hey, I don't suppose

>anyone's going to conduct a study on this! Or maybe some of the outbreaks

>*have been* clandestine studies..?

I think EVERY outbreak is a kind of study (at least in retrospect -- who

knows, maybe some are intentional too!). In the case of e-coli, millions of

people were infected, but only a few got sick, and yes, they were the ones

with weakened immune systems, primarily little kids (many of whom caught

the bug from their parents or siblings, who may have been a little sick,

but not dying). Also most people I've known that caught milder food

poisoning had recently been on antibiotics. Also they have studied

probiotics and " traveller's diarrhea " , and probiotics are very effective at

protecting folks from the germs they aren't used to in other countries.

So it's accepted even in the medical community that a good immune system

can handle a LOT. But as a mother of little kids, would I risk them? I DO

try to expose them as much as possible to germs that won't kill them, but

no, I won't feed them commercial rare beef.

Also, there is a case of what your system is immune to. The Indians were

generally healthy, but they did succumb to smallpox and various other

diseases from the other side of the ocean. With all the plane travel and

incursions into jungles that are being done, a lot of brand new bugs are

being introduced, and a bit of sanitation is not a bad thing.

Another point that is not often made about hunter-gatherer's and other

low-tech lifestyles is that yes, they had less sanitation and were still

healthy -- but they also generally carried levels of parasites that we

probably would not be comfortable with. One researcher has gone so far as

to suggest that some of the intestinal worms have actually adapted to work

with the human body symbiotically to protect against other conditions, but

others can (and do) make people pretty sick. Sure the 'raw meat' recipes

weren't frozen for 14 days, but they were often soaked in lime juice or

salt water or some acidic solution or dried in the sun, which would have

the effect of killing lots of germs and also most or all of the parasites.

Some of those parasites really do make people sick, even hunter-gatherers.

Modern meat doesn't have worms much, because the animals get worm pills,

but most animals do in fact have them.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>Also they have studied probiotics and " traveller's diarrhea " , and

probiotics are very effective at protecting folks from the germs they aren't

used to in other countries.

***Boy, I wish I knew *that* when I was busy picking up new bugs left and

right in nepal!

>>>>So it's accepted even in the medical community that a good immune system

can handle a LOT. But as a mother of little kids, would I risk them? I DO

try to expose them as much as possible to germs that won't kill them, but

no, I won't feed them commercial rare beef.

***How about *you* Heidi - do you feel comfortable eating rare or even raw

commercial beef? Either steaks or ground?

>>>Another point that is not often made about hunter-gatherer's and other

low-tech lifestyles is that yes, they had less sanitation and were still

healthy -- but they also generally carried levels of parasites that we

probably would not be comfortable with. One researcher has gone so far as

to suggest that some of the intestinal worms have actually adapted to work

with the human body symbiotically to protect against other conditions, but

others can (and do) make people pretty sick.

***Right, this goes back to the parasite thread a few months ago. It's

actually a *group* of researchers that hypothesize (or at this point -

theorize) that some intestinal worms keep our guts healthy. I posted some

information on the *worm hypothesis* during that thread, which basically

asserts that humans need a certain amount and type of intestinal worms to

keep the immune system 'toned' and healthy. (Most immune cells are in the

gut) And the researchers who treated IBD with worms, were *not* talking

about symbiotes, but rather organisms that are generally considered

parasites. The paradox of parasites!

>>>Sure the 'raw meat' recipes

weren't frozen for 14 days, but they were often soaked in lime juice or

salt water or some acidic solution or dried in the sun, which would have

the effect of killing lots of germs and also most or all of the parasites.

***They also probably wouldn't have had the new acid-resistant strain of

e.coli which is a product of the modern factory farms. My feeling is that we

are dealing with some superstrains here in america as a result of modern

unhealthy farming practices, yet we eat so poorly as a nation, that our guts

are probably much less healthy than primitives who've historically consumed

raw meat from wild animals. So we have two strikes against us unhealthy guts

to begin with, and 'superbugs' that result from factory farming. But,

personally, I do think that as I improve my health, and particularly that of

my gut, and if I consume forage- or grass-fed meats raw, my risk will not be

so great for e.coli, salmonella or other micro organism overload. But I

think it's wise for everyone to assess their current health status before

deciding how much raw meat to eat and from what source.

I haven't had any problems with raw milk, and am now eating about 1 raw egg

per day, so feel happy even about these small steps, which seem to be OK for

my current health status. I am *not* inclined to eat any raw meat from

factory farms, though, which, come to think of it, I don't buy anyway!

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

At 07:02 AM 4/22/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>***How about *you* Heidi - do you feel comfortable eating rare or even raw

>commercial beef? Either steaks or ground?

Ooooh, throw down the guantlet! I've tasted it, beef, sushi, eggs, and

basically I don't like it at all: there is no flavor and I don't like the

texture! But my steaks are quite rare in the middle and getting rarer. I DO

like raw marinated fish though. I'd love to know how to make salami

(fermented meat, basically), or low-heat jerky. Philisophically I like

things marinated or salted, whether or not they are " cooked " with heat.

That makes the " sitting at room temperature " and contamination problem much

less likely, and the stuff tastes a whole lot better.

There's also the " Tradition " part of Nurturing Traditions. How many of my

ancestors ate raw ground meat? Or any other culture I know of? Some of the

tribes ate raw organs from a fresh kill, or rare steak, or " raw " meat dried

in the sun, or pickled herring, but none of them had meat grinders or

slaughterhouses. The Asians I know that eat raw fish (and sometimes beef)

have long traditions and training about how to select the right fish and

what to look for. I don't have any of that training! So I'll eat raw tuna

at a good sushi house, but I'm not going to try it myself without a good

mentor.

I'm iffy about ground beef. I'm more concerned about the possibility of

contaminating my kitchen: I DID give food poisoning to myself once from a

salad (the bowl had likely been around some raw meat before I made the

salad in it). I used to grow microbes under a microscope a lot (and now in

a jar!) and I'm probably more inclined to think about them. Plus my son

always eats raw food (via tube) and I'm very concerned about HIS stuff

getting contaminated.

I'm also trying for a lifestyle that can include company -- I have clients

here for lunch and employees, and I want them to come away from lunch

thinking " Wow, that was great " , not to challenge their philosophies too

much. A meal should be something savored and enjoyed and a way to bring

people together, and somehow I think serving raw hamburger would not do

that here!

-- Heidi

> >>>Another point that is not often made about hunter-gatherer's and other

>low-tech lifestyles is that yes, they had less sanitation and were still

>healthy -- but they also generally carried levels of parasites that we

>probably would not be comfortable with. One researcher has gone so far as

>to suggest that some of the intestinal worms have actually adapted to work

>with the human body symbiotically to protect against other conditions, but

>others can (and do) make people pretty sick.

>

>***Right, this goes back to the parasite thread a few months ago. It's

>actually a *group* of researchers that hypothesize (or at this point -

>theorize) that some intestinal worms keep our guts healthy. I posted some

>information on the *worm hypothesis* during that thread, which basically

>asserts that humans need a certain amount and type of intestinal worms to

>keep the immune system 'toned' and healthy. (Most immune cells are in the

>gut) And the researchers who treated IBD with worms, were *not* talking

>about symbiotes, but rather organisms that are generally considered

>parasites. The paradox of parasites!

>

> >>>Sure the 'raw meat' recipes

>weren't frozen for 14 days, but they were often soaked in lime juice or

>salt water or some acidic solution or dried in the sun, which would have

>the effect of killing lots of germs and also most or all of the parasites.

>

>***They also probably wouldn't have had the new acid-resistant strain of

>e.coli which is a product of the modern factory farms. My feeling is that we

>are dealing with some superstrains here in america as a result of modern

>unhealthy farming practices, yet we eat so poorly as a nation, that our guts

>are probably much less healthy than primitives who've historically consumed

>raw meat from wild animals. So we have two strikes against us unhealthy guts

>to begin with, and 'superbugs' that result from factory farming. But,

>personally, I do think that as I improve my health, and particularly that of

>my gut, and if I consume forage- or grass-fed meats raw, my risk will not be

>so great for e.coli, salmonella or other micro organism overload. But I

>think it's wise for everyone to assess their current health status before

>deciding how much raw meat to eat and from what source.

>

>I haven't had any problems with raw milk, and am now eating about 1 raw egg

>per day, so feel happy even about these small steps, which seem to be OK for

>my current health status. I am *not* inclined to eat any raw meat from

>factory farms, though, which, come to think of it, I don't buy anyway!

>

>

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 22 Apr 2002 11:59:04 -0700 Heidi Schuppenhauer

<heidis@...> writes:

At 07:02 AM 4/22/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>***How about *you* Heidi - do you feel comfortable eating rare or even

raw

>commercial beef? Either steaks or ground?

Ooooh, throw down the guantlet! I've tasted it, beef, sushi, eggs, and

basically I don't like it at all: there is no flavor and I don't like the

texture!

******Hmmmmm....I find nothing more flavorful than hand ground (i.e with

a knife) or flattened (with a mallet) beef or sashimi. I also love beef

cubes. It has been my experience when eating raw beef that the less

tender cuts (when cooked) are much more flavorful raw than the typical

steak cuts (and cheaper too). When I eat steak tartare out at a

restaurant I prefer top sirloin over the filet mignon, better flavor and

not nearly as spendy.

<snip>

There's also the " Tradition " part of Nurturing Traditions. How many of my

ancestors ate raw ground meat? Or any other culture I know of? Some of

the

tribes ate raw organs from a fresh kill, or rare steak, or " raw " meat

dried

in the sun, or pickled herring, but none of them had meat grinders or

slaughterhouses.

*****You don't need a meat grinder to make " ground " beef. In fact the

best steak tartar is not made that way.

<snip>

I'm iffy about ground beef. I'm more concerned about the possibility of

contaminating my kitchen: I DID give food poisoning to myself once from a

salad (the bowl had likely been around some raw meat before I made the

salad in it).

*****I know lots of vegetarians who have had food poisoning problems and

there wasn't any animal flesh in site.

I used to grow microbes under a microscope a lot (and now in

a jar!) and I'm probably more inclined to think about them. Plus my son

always eats raw food (via tube) and I'm very concerned about HIS stuff

getting contaminated.

I'm also trying for a lifestyle that can include company -- I have

clients

here for lunch and employees, and I want them to come away from lunch

thinking " Wow, that was great " , not to challenge their philosophies too

much. A meal should be something savored and enjoyed and a way to bring

people together, and somehow I think serving raw hamburger would not do

that here!

-- Heidi

******perhaps, but raw food creatively prepared can easily be savored

even by novices. You might not want to make it the main dish but it can

work as an appetizer.

Bianca

[Guest guest]

At 01:22 PM 5/3/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>******Hmmmmm....I find nothing more flavorful than hand ground (i.e with

>a knife) or flattened (with a mallet) beef or sashimi. I also love beef

>cubes. It has been my experience when eating raw beef that the less

>tender cuts (when cooked) are much more flavorful raw than the typical

>steak cuts (and cheaper too). When I eat steak tartare out at a

>restaurant I prefer top sirloin over the filet mignon, better flavor and

>not nearly as spendy.

You probably have a more finely developed palate. I like pickled herring

and lox, or anything with lots of vinegar, lactic acid taste, garlic,

cayenne, or ginger. I suppose one could spice up some raw hamburger, but

there's all that cold fat (which I don't like at all: I don't even like

cold butter). As I understand it, salami and other meats of that ilk are

really fermented, not cooked, and they are delicious, cold, as is

cold-smoked bacon (they sold it in Switzerland specially for eating raw).

I also have a problem with " food aversions " which don't make a lot of

sense: I gag on soggy bread, for instance. My brother used to make me

nauseated by eating his cereal all soggy and taunting me with saying " soggy

soggy soggy! " , I can't stand to see my kids eating it either. And I can't

eat baked custard and a slew of other things. So I don't take my likes and

dislikes as a judgement on a particular food, more like an artifact of my

particular brain patterns. Although, since wheat bread DOES make me

slightly ill (something I only noticed fairly recently), it could be my

subconscious talking.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

At 01:22 PM 5/3/2002 -0700, you wrote:

Bianca:

>*****You don't need a meat grinder to make " ground " beef. In fact the

>best steak tartar is not made that way.

This is true, but it is a lot of work, and seems to be a " special " kind of

dish, and any ground or chopped meat spoils very quickly and was probably

eaten pretty quickly. Most of the references I've seen to REALLY raw meat

refer to meat that is eaten shortly after the animal is killed, or meat

that is " hung " for awhile (which gets either " cured " or lactic fermented or

smoked). The modern kind of ground beef (ground on a grinder with meat from

hundreds of other cattle, and stored in plastic for days before you buy it)

is unprecedented. I did get some raw meat from a Lebanese cook who bought

the lamb, (after inspecting it, he said, you don't want an unhealthy

lamb!), cut and ground the meat, and served it fairly quickly. Talking to

him I realized I don't know the first thing about most meat. All the people

I've talked to from cultures that eat really raw meat know a LOT (and care

a lot!) about the proper preparation of it.

This is a process I am learning about, but in small steps! We just recently

went from half our groceries being packaged to making most meals from

scratch, learning to ferment, and eliminating about half our diet. Some

issues I just don't have the time or energy to tackle all at once. Though

listening to you'all's experiences is certainly part of the process!

>I'm iffy about ground beef. I'm more concerned about the possibility of

>contaminating my kitchen: I DID give food poisoning to myself once from a

>

>salad (the bowl had likely been around some raw meat before I made the

>salad in it).

>

>

>*****I know lots of vegetarians who have had food poisoning problems and

>there wasn't any animal flesh in site.

Vegetarians may get it more, just from overconfidence (or lack of exposure

to good bacteria). But the normal camphlobacter and salmonella don't kill

little kids so much as this new e-coli one (though you could get it just as

easy from organic produce that was grown in manure). That's one reason I

like foods to have some good vinegar or lemon juice or salt, not be too

bland. Just about all the spices -- garlic, ginger, cayenne -- have been

shown to have a synergistic effect that keeps bacteria and molds from

growing, though the more harmless ones like lactobacillus don't mind them.

E-coli superbugs might survive in some live vinegar, but I doubt they would

multiply.

I don't serve potato salad without vinegar for the same reason I would not

serve raw ground hamburger -- it's probably ok, but if it's not and it sits

at room temperature for any length of time it could be very bad. Waldorf

salad made with mayo is just like a Petri dish waiting for a good bug.

Waldorf salad made with yogurt is pretty well protected by the acidity and

live bugs in the yogurt. Those of you that eat raw ground hamburger daily

probably have developed immunity to just about everything -- which is

great, but I can't assume that my " audience " is the same. In fact my

officemate seems very, very prone to food poisoning.

>******perhaps, but raw food creatively prepared can easily be savored

>even by novices. You might not want to make it the main dish but it can

>work as an appetizer.

Possibly, but in my case the " prepared " is the key word. I made some lox

and those are great, pickled fish (fish soaked in lemon juice or lime for

an hour or two), dried jerky. Those things have flavor, still have their

vitamins/enzymes I would think. Raw liver has some good stuff in it, but

most of the folks here won't eat it even cooked. I do cook it lightly with

onions when my husband is gone though.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

>>>>Bianca:

>*****You don't need a meat grinder to make " ground " beef. In fact the

>best steak tartar is not made that way.

This is true, but it is a lot of work, and seems to be a " special " kind of

dish, and any ground or chopped meat spoils very quickly and was probably

eaten pretty quickly. Most of the references I've seen to REALLY raw meat

refer to meat that is eaten shortly after the animal is killed, or meat

that is " hung " for awhile (which gets either " cured " or lactic fermented or

smoked).

*****I would like to read more about lacto-fermenting meat, Heidi, do you

have any URLs, book recommendations, etc? I asked Mark how he ages meat

yesterday and he said he just leaves it in the fridge for long periods. I'm

not sure i'd like the taste of that and i'm under the impression that meat

should at least be *hung* when ageing, not lying flat in a dish (which is

typically how I keep meat in my fridge). I had thought about hanging a steak

from a banana stand (designed to hang bananas on) but am not sure about that

either. I'd definitely like to promote beneficial bacteria colonies on it,

if possible, so lacto-fermenting sounds interesting.

>*****I know lots of vegetarians who have had food poisoning problems and

>there wasn't any animal flesh in site.

>>>>>Vegetarians may get it more, just from overconfidence (or lack of

exposure

to good bacteria). But the normal camphlobacter and salmonella don't kill

little kids so much as this new e-coli one (though you could get it just as

easy from organic produce that was grown in manure).

*****I'm under the impression that the majority of salmonella poisoning

outbreaks in the US are from vegetables and processed, packaged foods - non

meat items. As far as e.coli 0157:h7 (i think that's the acid-resistant

strain), as far as i know that's really a *product* of corn-feeding cattle,

so feedlot steer would be the only (?) source.

>>>>>That's one reason I

like foods to have some good vinegar or lemon juice or salt, not be too

bland. Just about all the spices -- garlic, ginger, cayenne -- have been

shown to have a synergistic effect that keeps bacteria and molds from

growing,

****Are you saying that garlic, ginger and cayenne used *together* have a

synergistic effect in preventing harmful bacteria and molds from forming? Or

any *one* of the above has that effect?

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 03 May 2002 22:34:40 -0700 Heidi Schuppenhauer

<heidis@...> writes:

You probably have a more finely developed palate. I like pickled herring

and lox, or anything with lots of vinegar, lactic acid taste, garlic,

cayenne, or ginger. I suppose one could spice up some raw hamburger, but

there's all that cold fat (which I don't like at all: I don't even like

cold butter).

*****More refined palate? Thank you but I wish it were true! I just keep

trying things until my tastebuds eventually adjust.

Steak tartar is usually spiced up with garlic and peppers, depending on

the recipe. I'm not much on raw hamburger, better to grind your own meat

at home, even better to hand grind with knives rather than a machine.

I rarely eat raw meat cold (even though it does not bother me). It is

usually room temp or warmer, as long as it does not exceed 100 degrees or

so it is still considered raw.

Bianca

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 03 May 2002 23:42:55 -0700 Heidi Schuppenhauer

<heidis@...> writes:

At 01:22 PM 5/3/2002 -0700, you wrote:

Bianca:

>*****You don't need a meat grinder to make " ground " beef. In fact the

>best steak tartar is not made that way.

This is true, but it is a lot of work, and seems to be a " special " kind

of

dish, and any ground or chopped meat spoils very quickly and was probably

eaten pretty quickly.

******Once you get the hang of it it goes pretty quickly, like Carpaccio.

Most of the references I've seen to REALLY raw meat

refer to meat that is eaten shortly after the animal is killed, or meat

that is " hung " for awhile (which gets either " cured " or lactic fermented

or

smoked).

******Of course there is also high meat :-)

The modern kind of ground beef (ground on a grinder with meat from

hundreds of other cattle, and stored in plastic for days before you buy

it)

is unprecedented.

****With this I would agree, which is why most folks who eat raw meat do

not but hamburger from the store.

<snip>

Those of you that eat raw ground hamburger daily

probably have developed immunity to just about everything -- which is

great, but I can't assume that my " audience " is the same. In fact my

officemate seems very, very prone to food poisoning.

****is there anyone on this list who eats raw ground hamburger daily? Did

I miss something?

Bianca

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 4 May 2002 08:25:57 -0400 " Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22@...>

writes:

*****I would like to read more about lacto-fermenting meat, Heidi, do you

have any URLs, book recommendations, etc? I asked Mark how he ages meat

yesterday and he said he just leaves it in the fridge for long periods.

I'm

not sure i'd like the taste of that and i'm under the impression that

meat

should at least be *hung* when ageing, not lying flat in a dish (which is

typically how I keep meat in my fridge). I had thought about hanging a

steak

from a banana stand (designed to hang bananas on) but am not sure about

that

either. I'd definitely like to promote beneficial bacteria colonies on

it,

if possible, so lacto-fermenting sounds interesting.

********The Eskimos make high meat by burying rather than hanging it.

<snip>

*****I'm under the impression that the majority of salmonella poisoning

outbreaks in the US are from vegetables and processed, packaged foods -

non

meat items. As far as e.coli 0157:h7 (i think that's the acid-resistant

strain), as far as i know that's really a *product* of corn-feeding

cattle,

so feedlot steer would be the only (?) source.

********This is quite true.

Bianca

[Guest guest]

>>>>>The Eskimos make high meat by burying rather than hanging it.

*****So do wolves

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

At 03:35 PM 5/6/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>The modern kind of ground beef (ground on a grinder with meat from

>hundreds of other cattle, and stored in plastic for days before you buy

>it)

>is unprecedented.

>

>****With this I would agree, which is why most folks who eat raw meat do

>not buy hamburger from the store.

Oh good. Chopped fresh from a steak is one thing. Ground meat doesn't stay

good very long: I used to use it to raise maggots (one of my childhood

experiments) and I was always surprised at how fast it goes bad. A strip of

meat in the sun will dry out: hamburger just stinks after a few hours! (Is

that " high " meat?)

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...