Project Goals, and More Questions for the Collective Wisdom

[Guest guest]

Thank you for all of your wonderful ideas of what I could be sent out in the

world to do for a sociology research project/ dissertation that could help this

group. I'm doing some background searching into each of the ideas you suggested

just to get an idea of what is out there and what is feasible.

Because so many of your ideas included wanting to use the research *for* some

kind of change or goal (which I love), I thought in the meantime I'd call on you

to ask for what kind of goals or changes we'd like to see. That might help

narrow down the list of questions. What do we want to use the research as a tool

to change? If we could impact one thing, what is the most important? (And then

what research project can best tackle that?)

Since there are more than 3000 of us, I know I have some ideas - but my

perspective is only one, and I don't want this project to be determined by just

my thinking. Thoughts?

Thank you again for all of your input!

Sandy

[Guest guest]

well the most important change i would like to see is for the children of

abusive parents be given a voice, and advocate, someone they can talk to, like

we talk to each other here and get so much support.. can you imagine how our

lives would have been different if we had just had even one person who could

talk to us and listen to us and let us know that we are not the ones to blame

for all the craziness. Â that it was coming from our parent(s) and that we could

trust ourselves and be ourselves with..Â

now how this might be brot about is beyond me.. Â that is for someone else to

think about and come up with ideas.. and ideas for how the research project

might help bring about this change. Â

this may be totally off the wall and unfeasible but it is what i thot about the

question here, a really good one i think.blessings to all, ann

Subject: Project Goals, and More Questions for the

Collective Wisdom

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Monday, February 7, 2011, 1:16 PM

Â

Thank you for all of your wonderful ideas of what I could be sent out in

the world to do for a sociology research project/ dissertation that could help

this group. I'm doing some background searching into each of the ideas you

suggested just to get an idea of what is out there and what is feasible.

Because so many of your ideas included wanting to use the research *for* some

kind of change or goal (which I love), I thought in the meantime I'd call on you

to ask for what kind of goals or changes we'd like to see. That might help

narrow down the list of questions. What do we want to use the research as a tool

to change? If we could impact one thing, what is the most important? (And then

what research project can best tackle that?)

Since there are more than 3000 of us, I know I have some ideas - but my

perspective is only one, and I don't want this project to be determined by just

my thinking. Thoughts?

Thank you again for all of your input!

Sandy

[Guest guest]

In a much earlier post, member mentioned a recently-passed

Massachusetts law regarding assessing new mothers' mental health. The idea is

to screen new mothers for post-partum depression and post-partum psychosis.

Here's a link to an article discussing that law:

http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2010/08/a-law-for-new-moms-mental-health/

I would like to see similar laws passed nationally.

There is an even more extensive and long-established program set up in Great

Britain, where highly-trained visiting nurses call on families periodically over

the span of three years (I believe) and assess whether the child is (children

are) thriving and whether there seems to be anything out of the normal range

going on. The nurses can then recommend follow-up assessments, treatments, or

other actions.

Although this kind of assessment wouldn't reveal the high-functioning,

perfectionistic Queen/Witch types of nada (like mine) who are masters of covert

abuse, it can reveal those who are undergoing post-partum depression or

psychosis, or are low-functioning Waif or Hermit types of bpd exhibiting overt

abnormal behaviors (such as if the home is dangerously filthy, the children

appear neglected, etc.)

So-- I think it would be awesome if your research study resulted in the

Massachusetts law being passed nationally for the benefit of all infants and

children in the USA. It would also be awesome if that could lead to a universal

health care visiting nurses program that can at least bring attention to the

more egregious instances of physically and emotionally maltreated children.

Here is the link to a PDF file about the Home Health Care visiting nurses

program in Great Britain (and Denmark, too, I believe.)

https://www.futureofchildren.org/futureofchildren/.../docs/03_03_02.pdf

-Annie

>

> Thank you for all of your wonderful ideas of what I could be sent out in the

world to do for a sociology research project/ dissertation that could help this

group. I'm doing some background searching into each of the ideas you suggested

just to get an idea of what is out there and what is feasible.

>

> Because so many of your ideas included wanting to use the research *for* some

kind of change or goal (which I love), I thought in the meantime I'd call on you

to ask for what kind of goals or changes we'd like to see. That might help

narrow down the list of questions. What do we want to use the research as a tool

to change? If we could impact one thing, what is the most important? (And then

what research project can best tackle that?)

>

> Since there are more than 3000 of us, I know I have some ideas - but my

perspective is only one, and I don't want this project to be determined by just

my thinking. Thoughts?

>

> Thank you again for all of your input!

>

> Sandy

>

[Guest guest]

I *really like* the idea of child advocates. I think that could be implemented

by having child psychologist-advocate-counselors available at every public and

private school, and make it a requirement to have regular meetings with those

who are home-schooled as well.

This is just my fantasy at this point, but I would like it if these

advocate/counselor/psychologists also had the legal power to represent the

child's interests as though the child were an adult. So, for example, if the

child asks for an appointment with the advocate and claims that he or she (or a

sibling) is being sexually abused at home, or deprived of medical attention, or

starved, or beaten, or left unattended for extended periods of time, etc., then

the advocate has the legal authority to call for an investigation and a hearing,

and becomes the child's legal representative in the matter.

In the case of emotional abuse, the advocate/counselor would have the legal

authority to call for a psychological evaluation of the parents and the child,

and observe or mediate on the child's behalf during the psychological and/or

family therapy process.

I am totally behind the idea of giving children the same legal and civil rights

as adults regarding the ability to bring suit when they believe their basic

human rights are being violated.

I also really like the idea of starting in preschool, to educate children about

what mentally healthy behaviors look like and sound like compared to what

mentally ill, dysfunctional behaviors look like and sound like. Kids need to

understand that if they're being hit with objects, refused medical treatment,

neglected, sexually exploited, treated as the family scapegoat, punished by

public shaming and humiliation, bullied and beaten (etc.,) that those are

abnormal, mentally ill, and possibly criminally abusive behaviors whether

they're coming from another child, an adult, or from their own parents, and the

child has the right to bring that to the attention of a mandated reporter. (And

frankly, I think all adults need to be mandated reporters!)

AND I love the idea of educating older kids (before they hit puberty) about what

proper child care, child development, and good parenting consists of, including

that exercise where they have to take good-enough care of a surrogate baby (in

the form of a sack of flour or something) for several weeks in order to get a

passing grade.

Again, even such measures would do little to help a child who is being abused by

a highly intelligent, high-functioning narcissistic pd, borderline pd or

psychopathic pd parent. These are the covertly abusive monsters who can fool

anyone. They can appear to be perfectly normal, intelligent and even

charismatically persuasive when they wish to be.

The child of this type of parent is basically screwed unless someone close to

the child, such as the non-pd parent, non-pd aunt or uncle, etc., is brave

enough to step forward and be the child's witness or advocate.

-Annie

>

> well the most important change i would like to see is for the children of

abusive parents be given a voice, and advocate, someone they can talk to, like

we talk to each other here and get so much support.. can you imagine how our

lives would have been different if we had just had even one person who could

talk to us and listen to us and let us know that we are not the ones to blame

for all the craziness. Â that it was coming from our parent(s) and that we could

trust ourselves and be ourselves with..Â

> now how this might be brot about is beyond me.. Â that is for someone else to

think about and come up with ideas.. and ideas for how the research project

might help bring about this change. Â

> this may be totally off the wall and unfeasible but it is what i thot about

the question here, a really good one i think.blessings to all, ann

>

[Guest guest]

I think these are all good ideas - some thoughts I've had are:

Do we want to be more visible? (It sounds like yes). But to whom? I mean, who

would it help us the most to have them see us? Doctors? Lawyers? ...? The

general public? Because that really affects the project, and realistically we

probably can't address all of them at once. Who has the power to change our

situation? Or do we just want to talk to be heard, for our own sakes, and it

matters less who pays attention?

And also, what is the most healing? (I'm sort of assuming that is a general goal

for a lot of people here). As a group we've survived some pretty horrifying

things, and we're still here, and we have voices. So what do we want to do with

them? It doesn't have to just be a research project. We are all invested enough

in each other and our own experiences to come here - research is just a tool.

In a way, it's our birthright to speak out. My question for all of you is: what

do we want people to hear?

Sandy

[Guest guest]

Hi,Sandy.I can only speak for myself but since all of the questions you've asked

relate to such a big and multifaceted issue/problem,*is* there a single research

project that could at least raise awareness of the fact that American society

doesn't deal adequately or at all with the needs and realities of children who

have BPD parents?

I don't know if this would be feasible for a sociology dissertation but

IMHO a study of termination of parental rights cases nationwide when the parent

(usually the mother) has BPD might be revealing.I did a bit of reading about

this a few months back and there were many cases online--something interesting I

learned was that in 38 states,the parent having BPD is grounds for a termination

of their parental rights once the case ends up in court,typically because the

children have had to be placed into foster care.

The cases I read were fascinating because the BPD parent,mainly

mothers,were given opportunities by the courts to rehabilitate themselves

through psychological counseling and other supportive services such as

job/life/parenting skills counseling and they were given a chance to regain

custody of their children--but most of these BPD mothers were unable to make the

necessary changes to their own lives that would have enabled them to keep their

children.Which made me wonder,too,if the counseling they were receiving was

adequate to the needs of a BPD.Or if even with the best counseling,the time it

would take for them to make real improvement was longer than any reasonable

deadline the courts could make before a custodial decision had to be made in the

best interests of the children.

I also read a few cases (and I certainly didn't read all of the ones that

were there online!) where the judge simply did not get it and although a child

had been rescued from a BPD mother and placed into protective care,they were

sent back to the BPD mother by the judge.In one case in Oregon the child

advocate team that had been assigned to a little girl totally got all the

dysfunctional nuances of the BPD mother's behavior,down to understanding

emotionally abusive subtleties such as the mother getting a puppy as a way to

hook her child in while she was out of her reach in foster care (with supervised

visitation) then giving the puppy a name other than what the child had asked her

to name it--the child advocates understood that this didn't bode well in terms

of the mother's real rehabilitation since she was undergoing counseling at the

time and they made a note of the puppy incident for the judge to illustrate how

the BPD mother continued to manipulate her daughter and to disregard her stated

preferences/opinions.

That was one incident of a few that the child advocate team brought to

the termination of parental rights hearing for this BPD mother.They *understood*

what was going on,but the judge in that case did not and he wasn't buying

it.Although that little girl was thriving in foster care and her foster parents

were ready to adopt her,he ruled in favor of returning her to the BPD mother.

In his ruling,he cited an earlier case where a small child had been

returned to the custody of a BPD mother who had " proven " her fitness by being a

" good babysitter " to *other people's children*--again,totally not getting it.Our

BPD mothers can be great with other people's kids!

I'm paraphrasing him; I read that case many months ago,but in his

ruling not to terminate the BPD's parental rights,he said something like, " Many

children in the state of Oregon grow up with imperfect parents who don't fully

attend to all of their emotional needs and still they manage to grow up just

fine. "

...It seems to me that perhaps a study of various cases like

this,contrasting and comparing judges who do understand what is truly at stake

psychologically for the children of BPDs with the ones who don't could help to

explain what the issues are.It could also perhaps help to highlight the fact

that even when a BPD wants to get help,the right help isn't always

available.Or,as was the case out in Oregon,the court appointed psychologist who

is treating the BPD (and is being lied to/manipulated etc and knows it) can

recommend termination and still have it over ruled by an ignorant judge.

There were other judges who totally got it.The problem I noticed as

I was reading these cases was that there is no national standard--every state

has its own parental termination laws.Which is very unfair,to be a helpless

child subject literally to the luck of the draw,like if you are born just on the

border of say Arizona and New Mexico but your county is officially located in

New Mexico your chances of being released for adoption to a loving family are

practically nil whereas if you had been officially in Arizona,your BPD mother's

parental rights to you would have been terminated.That is just a Kafkaesque

equation and it's nonsensical.

Another issue I noticed was child advocacy teams being better educated

about BPD and aware of what the dangers are to children being raised by one but

who could only make recommendations while the judges had the actual authority to

make a life altering decision--judges who didn't have a similar awareness and

who were basing their decisions on case precendents set by other judges who also

weren't fully informed and aware.Absurd!

So that's my idea to get a social discussion going about the needs and

rights of KOs: How are the courts failing the children of BPDs and how are they

getting it right? Bearing in mind that these cases that make it to court are the

" worst of the worst " most of the time--and if many of these abusive parents are

regaining custody,what does that say about our priorities as a society? Are

we,as a society,saying that it's ok for children to be raised by BPDs when many

professionals won't treat them because they're such a mind f*ck? In the Oregon

case,the judge didn't rule that the mother and child receive follow up or

ongoing counseling: the BPD mother was simply given back her child to " raise "

because in that particular judge's opinion an " optimal emotional environment " is

neither " necessary nor possible " .

What he didn't apprehend is that CPS sent that kid to heaven (a loving

foster home) and he sent her right back to hell (to her nada--and that is

exactly what she was)

>

> I think these are all good ideas - some thoughts I've had are:

>

> Do we want to be more visible? (It sounds like yes). But to whom? I mean, who

would it help us the most to have them see us? Doctors? Lawyers? ...? The

general public? Because that really affects the project, and realistically we

probably can't address all of them at once. Who has the power to change our

situation? Or do we just want to talk to be heard, for our own sakes, and it

matters less who pays attention?

>

> And also, what is the most healing? (I'm sort of assuming that is a general

goal for a lot of people here). As a group we've survived some pretty horrifying

things, and we're still here, and we have voices. So what do we want to do with

them? It doesn't have to just be a research project. We are all invested enough

in each other and our own experiences to come here - research is just a tool.

>

> In a way, it's our birthright to speak out. My question for all of you is:

what do we want people to hear?

>

> Sandy

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Annie

I remember we were discussing this stuff a while back.Quite a while

back,lol! Just to update,there was actually a bill in Washington called the

" Mother's Act " or H.R.20 that would have made screening for post partum mood

disorders national law but that bill died two years ago and hasn't been

resurrected.

More info here:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-20

It proved to be too " Big Brother-ish " to elements of the conservative

constituency--if you google " Blocker Stokes Mother's Act " you'll get

lots of hits about the outraged protest that rose up around the possible passage

of this bill.There were also allegations of Big Pharma profiting from it if it

passed,which unfortunately has some truth to it although much of what you'll

find online RE: the protests is overblown distortion (IMO).

I lived in Great Britain for a few years and I don't recall people having

huge issues with the visiting nurses scheme but Americans seem to have different

views about maintaining their own right to privacy versus the greater good.But

the other thing is that Big Pharma doesn't dictate the agenda of the British

National Health Service and doesn't stand to reap obscene profits from the

visiting nurses scheme,so the entire equation on this side of the pond with

H.R.20 was skewed towards *potential* exploitation for profit margin

purposes,which is really tragic.Along with all the conflicts of interest that go

with that--and the real issue (saving lives both literal and psychological) got

sidetracked by fears of people being fleeced and abused by monolithic entities

such as pharmaceutical corporations and " Washington " (meddling in private

lives).

The state where I live now,New Jersey,passed a bill where hospitals give

out information about post partum mood disorders in every maternity ward in the

state along with a hotline number for people to call if they need

assistance.Infants can be removed from the care of mentally ill parents at

birth--I've read two such cases,one where the mother had previously been

diagnosed with NPD and a judge termninated her parental rights to her infant and

another case where the parents wanted to name their baby " Hitler " (it turned out

both parents were white supremecists) so the baby was immediately placed into

foster care at birth while a hearing was arranged to determine whether or not to

release the baby for adoption.I haven't heard of any cases where mentally

healthy parents have been screwed over by the bill that states all parents in

N.J. must be informed of the dangers of post partum mood disorder and given info

about resources for help before being discharged from the hospital after

birthing a baby.

Senator Menendez (from NJ) is often cited as one of the " meanies " (or

Big Pharma " shills " ) who pushed to make the " Mother's Act " national law in the

protests you'll find online about the possible passage of H.R.20.In objective

reality,I think he was involved in trying to get it passed simply because having

a post partum mood disorders awareness bill has worked in NJ.And yes,he is

related to Lyle and Menendez,so maybe he knows a thing or two about

dysfunctional families and the damage that can ensue from them,so he's just

trying to do his part...speculation on my part but I doubt he had the kind of

evil agenda in mind that the detractors of H.R.20 assumed.At any rate,having

some kind of national bill that would screen all mothers for post partum mood

disorders was attempted in 2009 and it sank.

> >

> > Thank you for all of your wonderful ideas of what I could be sent out in the

world to do for a sociology research project/ dissertation that could help this

group. I'm doing some background searching into each of the ideas you suggested

just to get an idea of what is out there and what is feasible.

> >

> > Because so many of your ideas included wanting to use the research *for*

some kind of change or goal (which I love), I thought in the meantime I'd call

on you to ask for what kind of goals or changes we'd like to see. That might

help narrow down the list of questions. What do we want to use the research as a

tool to change? If we could impact one thing, what is the most important? (And

then what research project can best tackle that?)

> >

> > Since there are more than 3000 of us, I know I have some ideas - but my

perspective is only one, and I don't want this project to be determined by just

my thinking. Thoughts?

> >

> > Thank you again for all of your input!

> >

> > Sandy

> >

>

[Guest guest]

It takes a lot of tries to get new legislation passed, sometimes. Particularly

the social reform kind of new legislation. Maybe a research study will help.

-Annie

> > >

> > > Thank you for all of your wonderful ideas of what I could be sent out in

the world to do for a sociology research project/ dissertation that could help

this group. I'm doing some background searching into each of the ideas you

suggested just to get an idea of what is out there and what is feasible.

> > >

> > > Because so many of your ideas included wanting to use the research *for*

some kind of change or goal (which I love), I thought in the meantime I'd call

on you to ask for what kind of goals or changes we'd like to see. That might

help narrow down the list of questions. What do we want to use the research as a

tool to change? If we could impact one thing, what is the most important? (And

then what research project can best tackle that?)

> > >

> > > Since there are more than 3000 of us, I know I have some ideas - but my

perspective is only one, and I don't want this project to be determined by just

my thinking. Thoughts?

> > >

> > > Thank you again for all of your input!

> > >

> > > Sandy

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

- You seem to know a great deal about child abuse in the courts and

it's really fascinating... if you have any links you can send, please let me

know. I will follow-up on this and see where it takes me.

And Annie you may be right that a project could help push social legislation.

The good thing about the courts are that they are part of the government itself,

so an " easier " area to justify government involvement/changes. So maybe a

project in this area could lead to some kind of children's advocate position

that could be an advisor to judges. We have social workers in schools and what

not, they just don't all know how to recognize the signs of a problem, and may

not have the resources to deal with it. (As your scenario described - there are

probably better ways of doing this!) And if judges can always overrule people...

maybe that's where the bottom line is and a good place to start.

-S

[Guest guest]

I think you have a wonderfully noble intention, and encourage you to write about

how BPD affects families.

Most mental illness is discussed within psychology paradigms that foreground and

focus on the person with the mental illness. The same used to be true for

alcoholism; psychology focused on the alcoholic. Then, this little new

theoretical direction came along called " family systems " and people trained in

social sciences looked into how alcoholics affect their relatives. Studies were

done that looked into how the " Family systems " support the alcoholic in their

behavior, and out of that, all kinds of support came into being for family

members. Most psychologists today would say that you need to treat the entire

family when you treat alcoholism. Organizations that are considered normal

today, like Al-Anon, Al-Teen, all kinds of support for family members came into

being, and now it is pretty much accepted that you can't treat an alcoholic in

isolation, that their entire family needs support.

I wonder if you could apply Family Systems theory to the BP family. We know on

here that children and spouses and everyone is affected by BP in the family, yet

the field of psychology doesn't realize this yet.

Have any studies been done on how BP affects family members? Are there any

support services for family members (beyond these Oz yahoo groups?)? I know

of very little that has been posted on here, and I think if it was out there, we

would have found it and shared the information on here. So that makes me think

that this is a relatively unexplored area in research.

Good luck with your work, and thanks,

Walkingto Happiness

[Guest guest]

I agree! I think 's idea about making more judges aware that a

diagnosis of bpd has been used as grounds for awarding custody to the non-bpd

parent is a really good, and even achievable goal.

(My favorite idea is truly a fantasy at this point: a combination school

counselor/social worker/psychologist/lawyer at each school with the legal

authority to represent the child's interests as though the child is an adult,

when the child alleges that he or she is being abused by the parents. A " big

brother " for kids in the form of a real lawyer. Not achievable in the

foreseeable future.)

-Annie

>

> - You seem to know a great deal about child abuse in the courts and

it's really fascinating... if you have any links you can send, please let me

know. I will follow-up on this and see where it takes me.

>

> And Annie you may be right that a project could help push social legislation.

The good thing about the courts are that they are part of the government itself,

so an " easier " area to justify government involvement/changes. So maybe a

project in this area could lead to some kind of children's advocate position

that could be an advisor to judges. We have social workers in schools and what

not, they just don't all know how to recognize the signs of a problem, and may

not have the resources to deal with it. (As your scenario described - there are

probably better ways of doing this!) And if judges can always overrule people...

maybe that's where the bottom line is and a good place to start.

>

> -S

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I agree! I think 's idea about making more judges aware that a

diagnosis of bpd has been used as grounds for awarding custody to the non-bpd

parent is a really good, and even achievable goal.

>

Or just education for the legal system in general would be a good idea.

Attorneys need it (particularly divorce attorneys), judges need it, even court

psychologists need it. My dishrag of a dad is a judge. Long ago, when I

suggested mom has traits consistent with BPD and asked if he'd heard of it, he

said he'd seen lots of borderlines and she couldn't possibly have it. I shudder

to think how his denial and his beliefs about the infallibility of a mother

might have influenced the hundreds of custody cases he's decided over the course

of his career.

I think a lot of mental health professionals are still misinformed about BPD,

thinking that a person has to be engaged in suicide threats, drug use, or

cutting in order to qualify for the diagnosis, when that is just one possible

criterion. Decisions in the courts are often based on expert testimony from

court psychologists.

I think everyone involved in the system could benefit from education about the

definition of abuse--particularly emotional abuse--and be trained to recognize

that BPD (and other cluster 2) behaviors are inherently abusive. They need to

see what the long term, devastating effects can be for children with BPD'd

parents.

They need to learn that abuse isn't just broken bones and bruises; it's also

hateful words and no-win scenarios and unreasonable expectations about who's

supposed to be parenting whom. The face of abuse isn't just a big mean drunk

man with a fist; it can just as easily be the judge's wife.

[Guest guest]

Really well put, KT.

And here is a really good article that I think should be required reading RE

what having a bpd mother does to her children.

Maybe it could be condensed/simplified for easy reading, or made into a

checklist so that the judge, the lawyers, the court psychologist, etc., are all

on the same page RE understanding what the disorder is, and the impact it has on

kids whose mother or father has it.

http://www.tc.columbia.edu/publications/gsjp/detail.asp?Id=GSJP+Volumes & Info=GSP\

J%2C+Volume+8+%282006%29

The article is in the publication

Graduate Student Journal of Psychology, Vol 8, 2006

and is titled:

" Mothers with Borderline Personality Disorder " (pp. 39-44)

E. Lamont, Teachers College, Columbia University

I was only able to download it and read it as a PDF file, not online, though.

And you're right, it is chilling to hear that your dad was/is a judge, and your

mother has bpd and was abusive to you when you were growing up, but your own

father had/has a *blind spot* RE the reality of the emotional damage that his

wife inflicted on his kids, and how NOT NORMAL her behaviors were.

Yes, pamphlets, educational courses, and DOCUMENTARY FILMS are sorely needed for

education purposes.

-Annie

> Or just education for the legal system in general would be a good idea.

Attorneys need it (particularly divorce attorneys), judges need it, even court

psychologists need it. My dishrag of a dad is a judge. Long ago, when I

suggested mom has traits consistent with BPD and asked if he'd heard of it, he

said he'd seen lots of borderlines and she couldn't possibly have it. I shudder

to think how his denial and his beliefs about the infallibility of a mother

might have influenced the hundreds of custody cases he's decided over the course

of his career.

>

> I think a lot of mental health professionals are still misinformed about BPD,

thinking that a person has to be engaged in suicide threats, drug use, or

cutting in order to qualify for the diagnosis, when that is just one possible

criterion. Decisions in the courts are often based on expert testimony from

court psychologists.

>

> I think everyone involved in the system could benefit from education about the

definition of abuse--particularly emotional abuse--and be trained to recognize

that BPD (and other cluster 2) behaviors are inherently abusive. They need to

see what the long term, devastating effects can be for children with BPD'd

parents.

>

> They need to learn that abuse isn't just broken bones and bruises; it's also

hateful words and no-win scenarios and unreasonable expectations about who's

supposed to be parenting whom. The face of abuse isn't just a big mean drunk

man with a fist; it can just as easily be the judge's wife.

>

[Guest guest]

A documentary is a really powerful way to disseminate information. I don't know

much about making documentaries, but I wonder how one gets money to make one, or

where. Does anyone know?

I mean, regardless of my project (which, haha, unfortunately cannot be submitted

in documentary form), that's a really great idea.

A huge problem with academic work is that the people it might help often don't

read it. Judges may not care what some sociologist says. So it's not enough to

just " do " research, how the information is presented afterwards is *more*

important if anyone is hoping for some kind of social change. However, something

visual that people can more easily access and digest can reach more people and

be used as educational materials in a variety of settings.

(And an ongoing thank you to all of you for your wonderful input).

Sandy

PS: I'm busy downloading court cases, but I don't know as much yet as .

And I'd love to keep hearing your ideas.

>

> > Or just education for the legal system in general would be a good idea.

Attorneys need it (particularly divorce attorneys), judges need it, even court

psychologists need it. My dishrag of a dad is a judge. Long ago, when I

suggested mom has traits consistent with BPD and asked if he'd heard of it, he

said he'd seen lots of borderlines and she couldn't possibly have it. I shudder

to think how his denial and his beliefs about the infallibility of a mother

might have influenced the hundreds of custody cases he's decided over the course

of his career.

> >

> > I think a lot of mental health professionals are still misinformed about

BPD, thinking that a person has to be engaged in suicide threats, drug use, or

cutting in order to qualify for the diagnosis, when that is just one possible

criterion. Decisions in the courts are often based on expert testimony from

court psychologists.

> >

> > I think everyone involved in the system could benefit from education about

the definition of abuse--particularly emotional abuse--and be trained to

recognize that BPD (and other cluster 2) behaviors are inherently abusive. They

need to see what the long term, devastating effects can be for children with

BPD'd parents.

> >

> > They need to learn that abuse isn't just broken bones and bruises; it's also

hateful words and no-win scenarios and unreasonable expectations about who's

supposed to be parenting whom. The face of abuse isn't just a big mean drunk

man with a fist; it can just as easily be the judge's wife.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

The support services for families I know of are the following:

(I haven't watched this vid, but I

have met this guy) -- he runs a program:

http://www.borderlinepersonalitydisorder.com/family-connections. Based out of

Reno, but has multiple locations, including Minneapolis.

And in NY: http://www.tara4bpd.org/dyn/index.php?option=content & task=view & id=14

Another set of groups etc.

And yes, researchers have documented that children of BPD are in particular

disadvantaged on many levels. I did a lit review for my masters, so here are

some cites (Definitely check out the Feldman piece):

Feldman, B., Phyllis Zelkowitz, Margaret Weiss, Judy Vogel, Marsha Heyman

& Paris. 1995. " A Comparison of the Families of Mothers with Borderline and

Nonborderline Personality Disorders. " Comprehensive Psychiatry. 36(2): 157-163.

Herr, iel R., Constance Hammen, and A Brennan. 2008. " Maternal

Borderline Personality Disorder Symptoms and Adolescent Psychosocial

Functioning. " Journal of Personality Disorders. 22:5 451-465.

White, Candace; Gunderson, Zanarini & Hudson. 2003. " Family

Studies of Borderline Personality Disorder: A Review. " Harvard Review of

Psychology. 11: 8-19.

Widom, Cathy Spatz; Sally Czaja & Paris. 2009. " A Prospective Investigation

of Borderline Personality Disorder in Abused and Neglected Children Followed up

into Adulthood. " Journal of Personality Disorders. 23(5): 433-446.

Barnow, Sven; Carsten Spitzer, Hans J Grabe, Christoph Kessler & Harald

Freyberger. 2006. " Individual Characteristics, Familial Experience, and

Psychopathology in Children of Mothers With Borderline Personality

Disorder. " Journal of the American Academy of Child Adolescent Psychiatry. 45(8):

965-972.

Abela, R. Z., A. Skitch, Randy P. Auerback, and Philippe . 2005

" The Impact of Parental Borderline Personality Disorder on Vulnerability to

Depression in Children of Affectively Ill Parents. " Journal of Personality

Disorders. 19:1 68-83.

>

> I think you have a wonderfully noble intention, and encourage you to write

about how BPD affects families.

>

> Most mental illness is discussed within psychology paradigms that foreground

and focus on the person with the mental illness. The same used to be true for

alcoholism; psychology focused on the alcoholic. Then, this little new

theoretical direction came along called " family systems " and people trained in

social sciences looked into how alcoholics affect their relatives. Studies were

done that looked into how the " Family systems " support the alcoholic in their

behavior, and out of that, all kinds of support came into being for family

members. Most psychologists today would say that you need to treat the entire

family when you treat alcoholism. Organizations that are considered normal

today, like Al-Anon, Al-Teen, all kinds of support for family members came into

being, and now it is pretty much accepted that you can't treat an alcoholic in

isolation, that their entire family needs support.

>

> I wonder if you could apply Family Systems theory to the BP family. We know

on here that children and spouses and everyone is affected by BP in the family,

yet the field of psychology doesn't realize this yet.

>

>

> Have any studies been done on how BP affects family members? Are there any

support services for family members (beyond these Oz yahoo groups?)? I know

of very little that has been posted on here, and I think if it was out there, we

would have found it and shared the information on here. So that makes me think

that this is a relatively unexplored area in research.

>

> Good luck with your work, and thanks,

> Walkingto Happiness

>

[Guest guest]

That is SO encouraging to see that more and more studies are being done on bpd

in context with the family system, both the bpd's family of origin, and the

spouse/children of those with bpd. Its also encouraging to see that there are

at least some bpd family support services in place. Thanks for sharing all

those links!

I personally think that unless the person with bpd is on the extremely mild/lite

end of the scale, able to accept personal responsibility for her own behaviors,

committed to go into therapy and stay in therapy, willing to stay on meds (if

prescribed) and determined to work persistently on changing their negative,

acting-out behaviors....

unless those conditions are in place, I believe that the children of mothers

with undiagnosed, untreated moderate to severe bpd are at too much risk of

severe emotional/physical/sexual/spiritual damage to remain in their bpd

parent's care *without constant supervision.*

Removing the children and placing them in the care of mentally healthy

care-givers and allowing supervised visitation only sounds better to me.

The very criteria that define bpd in any combination virtually guarantee

emotional trauma and damage for a child in the care of such an individual.

-Annie

> >

> > I think you have a wonderfully noble intention, and encourage you to write

about how BPD affects families.

> >

> > Most mental illness is discussed within psychology paradigms that foreground

and focus on the person with the mental illness. The same used to be true for

alcoholism; psychology focused on the alcoholic. Then, this little new

theoretical direction came along called " family systems " and people trained in

social sciences looked into how alcoholics affect their relatives. Studies were

done that looked into how the " Family systems " support the alcoholic in their

behavior, and out of that, all kinds of support came into being for family

members. Most psychologists today would say that you need to treat the entire

family when you treat alcoholism. Organizations that are considered normal

today, like Al-Anon, Al-Teen, all kinds of support for family members came into

being, and now it is pretty much accepted that you can't treat an alcoholic in

isolation, that their entire family needs support.

> >

> > I wonder if you could apply Family Systems theory to the BP family. We know

on here that children and spouses and everyone is affected by BP in the family,

yet the field of psychology doesn't realize this yet.

> >

> >

> > Have any studies been done on how BP affects family members? Are there any

support services for family members (beyond these Oz yahoo groups?)? I know

of very little that has been posted on here, and I think if it was out there, we

would have found it and shared the information on here. So that makes me think

that this is a relatively unexplored area in research.

> >

> > Good luck with your work, and thanks,

> > Walkingto Happiness

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I agree: I think this subject is targeted enough to be manageable, but at the

same time could have a real impact on helping to create (or standardize) a

procedure for determining child custody in cases where a bpd-diagnosed mother is

involved. Or at least draw more attention to the issue. I think its got

validity! And gravitas!

And sometimes a documentary film-maker can get funding from the government in

the form of a grant. Or, I suppose some of the existing organizations that

promote child abuse awareness might be able to fund a documentary through

charitable donations.

-Annie

>

> Hi,Sandy.I can only speak for myself but since all of the questions you've

asked relate to such a big and multifaceted issue/problem,*is* there a single

research project that could at least raise awareness of the fact that American

society doesn't deal adequately or at all with the needs and realities of

children who have BPD parents?

>

> I don't know if this would be feasible for a sociology dissertation

but IMHO a study of termination of parental rights cases nationwide when the

parent (usually the mother) has BPD might be revealing.I did a bit of reading

about this a few months back and there were many cases online--something

interesting I learned was that in 38 states,the parent having BPD is grounds for

a termination of their parental rights once the case ends up in court,typically

because the children have had to be placed into foster care.

>

> The cases I read were fascinating because the BPD parent,mainly

mothers,were given opportunities by the courts to rehabilitate themselves

through psychological counseling and other supportive services such as

job/life/parenting skills counseling and they were given a chance to regain

custody of their children--but most of these BPD mothers were unable to make the

necessary changes to their own lives that would have enabled them to keep their

children.Which made me wonder,too,if the counseling they were receiving was

adequate to the needs of a BPD.Or if even with the best counseling,the time it

would take for them to make real improvement was longer than any reasonable

deadline the courts could make before a custodial decision had to be made in the

best interests of the children.

>

> I also read a few cases (and I certainly didn't read all of the ones

that were there online!) where the judge simply did not get it and although a

child had been rescued from a BPD mother and placed into protective care,they

were sent back to the BPD mother by the judge.In one case in Oregon the child

advocate team that had been assigned to a little girl totally got all the

dysfunctional nuances of the BPD mother's behavior,down to understanding

emotionally abusive subtleties such as the mother getting a puppy as a way to

hook her child in while she was out of her reach in foster care (with supervised

visitation) then giving the puppy a name other than what the child had asked her

to name it--the child advocates understood that this didn't bode well in terms

of the mother's real rehabilitation since she was undergoing counseling at the

time and they made a note of the puppy incident for the judge to illustrate how

the BPD mother continued to manipulate her daughter and to disregard her stated

preferences/opinions.

>

> That was one incident of a few that the child advocate team brought

to the termination of parental rights hearing for this BPD mother.They

*understood* what was going on,but the judge in that case did not and he wasn't

buying it.Although that little girl was thriving in foster care and her foster

parents were ready to adopt her,he ruled in favor of returning her to the BPD

mother.

>

> In his ruling,he cited an earlier case where a small child had been

returned to the custody of a BPD mother who had " proven " her fitness by being a

" good babysitter " to *other people's children*--again,totally not getting it.Our

BPD mothers can be great with other people's kids!

>

> I'm paraphrasing him; I read that case many months ago,but in his

ruling not to terminate the BPD's parental rights,he said something like, " Many

children in the state of Oregon grow up with imperfect parents who don't fully

attend to all of their emotional needs and still they manage to grow up just

fine. "

>

> ...It seems to me that perhaps a study of various cases like

this,contrasting and comparing judges who do understand what is truly at stake

psychologically for the children of BPDs with the ones who don't could help to

explain what the issues are.It could also perhaps help to highlight the fact

that even when a BPD wants to get help,the right help isn't always

available.Or,as was the case out in Oregon,the court appointed psychologist who

is treating the BPD (and is being lied to/manipulated etc and knows it) can

recommend termination and still have it over ruled by an ignorant judge.

>

> There were other judges who totally got it.The problem I noticed

as I was reading these cases was that there is no national standard--every state

has its own parental termination laws.Which is very unfair,to be a helpless

child subject literally to the luck of the draw,like if you are born just on the

border of say Arizona and New Mexico but your county is officially located in

New Mexico your chances of being released for adoption to a loving family are

practically nil whereas if you had been officially in Arizona,your BPD mother's

parental rights to you would have been terminated.That is just a Kafkaesque

equation and it's nonsensical.

>

> Another issue I noticed was child advocacy teams being better

educated about BPD and aware of what the dangers are to children being raised by

one but who could only make recommendations while the judges had the actual

authority to make a life altering decision--judges who didn't have a similar

awareness and who were basing their decisions on case precendents set by other

judges who also weren't fully informed and aware.Absurd!

>

> So that's my idea to get a social discussion going about the needs

and rights of KOs: How are the courts failing the children of BPDs and how are

they getting it right? Bearing in mind that these cases that make it to court

are the " worst of the worst " most of the time--and if many of these abusive

parents are regaining custody,what does that say about our priorities as a

society? Are we,as a society,saying that it's ok for children to be raised by

BPDs when many professionals won't treat them because they're such a mind f*ck?

In the Oregon case,the judge didn't rule that the mother and child receive

follow up or ongoing counseling: the BPD mother was simply given back her child

to " raise " because in that particular judge's opinion an " optimal emotional

environment " is neither " necessary nor possible " .

>

> What he didn't apprehend is that CPS sent that kid to heaven (a loving

foster home) and he sent her right back to hell (to her nada--and that is

exactly what she was)

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sandy,I sent you some links.I glanced over those cases again before I sent them

and something that struck me this time is that two cases that were appeals

rulings for a termination of parental rights (one from Oregon where the child

was returned to the BPD mother,one from North Carolina where the child was

released for adoption),the case where the BPD prevailed goes back to what KT was

saying about abuse not just being broken bones and bruises: the BPD mother out

in Oregon managed to cobble together the *semblance* of functioning which was

" enough " for the judge who overturned the decision from an earlier ruling that

had actually got it right--when in reality the mother *still* had BPD and was

highly likely to revert back to emotionally abusing her daughter.

Yet in the North Carolina case the court had determined that in order

for the mother to be able to properly parent her child she would need constant

supportive counseling--instead of going that route,the court decided it would be

better for the child to be adopted by a healthy family.This was mainly

because,it seemed to me,the BPD mother in that case was unable to achieve a

*semblance* of functioning.

Which begs the question,IMO,of how can a semblance of functioning be

reason enough to restore parental rights if the parent still *has* BPD? The

underlying issue,the BPD,hasn't gone away.Haven't all of us here been abused by

a parent who can " fake it " ? Or who could mimic insight to get what they want?

And as Annie has often and eloquently said here,BPD and parenthood is a recipe

for disaster.

It would be interesting to do a follow up study of the case from

Oregon,to see how that BPD waif mother and her daughter are faring--but I don't

think the daughter is old enough yet to explain or know if she is being slowly

undone by the waif.I just can't see how that case could have turned into a truly

happy ending.But it would probably make for an informative documentary.

As for getting funding for a documentary,that I don't know about that

but maybe contact the film school departments of some universities and ask the

professors how their students go about funding things like documentaries once

they are out there making a career of it.

[Guest guest]

--I don't think I got the links

Sandy

>

> Sandy,I sent you some links.I glanced over those cases again before I sent

them and something that struck me this time is that two cases that were appeals

rulings for a termination of parental rights (one from Oregon where the child

was returned to the BPD mother,one from North Carolina where the child was

released for adoption),the case where the BPD prevailed goes back to what KT was

saying about abuse not just being broken bones and bruises: the BPD mother out

in Oregon managed to cobble together the *semblance* of functioning which was

" enough " for the judge who overturned the decision from an earlier ruling that

had actually got it right--when in reality the mother *still* had BPD and was

highly likely to revert back to emotionally abusing her daughter.

>

> Yet in the North Carolina case the court had determined that in

order for the mother to be able to properly parent her child she would need

constant supportive counseling--instead of going that route,the court decided it

would be better for the child to be adopted by a healthy family.This was mainly

because,it seemed to me,the BPD mother in that case was unable to achieve a

*semblance* of functioning.

>

> Which begs the question,IMO,of how can a semblance of functioning be

reason enough to restore parental rights if the parent still *has* BPD? The

underlying issue,the BPD,hasn't gone away.Haven't all of us here been abused by

a parent who can " fake it " ? Or who could mimic insight to get what they want?

And as Annie has often and eloquently said here,BPD and parenthood is a recipe

for disaster.

>

> It would be interesting to do a follow up study of the case from

Oregon,to see how that BPD waif mother and her daughter are faring--but I don't

think the daughter is old enough yet to explain or know if she is being slowly

undone by the waif.I just can't see how that case could have turned into a truly

happy ending.But it would probably make for an informative documentary.

>

> As for getting funding for a documentary,that I don't know about that

but maybe contact the film school departments of some universities and ask the

professors how their students go about funding things like documentaries once

they are out there making a career of it.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sandy,I re-sent those links directly to your email instead of using the

" send mail " icon on the message board,so I hope they landed in your inbox this

time

>

> --I don't think I got the links

>

> Sandy

[Guest guest]

Sorry all: Ive been in bed with a virus all week, AND I'm from Wisconsin, so

things have been REALLY crazy here this past week and a a half in case you

haven't heard.

I'll try to follow up with everything you've said and compile it soon!

Best!

Sandy

> >

> > --I don't think I got the links

> >

> > Sandy

>