Guest guest Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 So I'm thinking about how my nada has such a hard time with spontaneously feeling positive emotions in reaction to someone's difficulty like compassion or empathy. Also positive emotions of happiness or joy are incredibly rare as well. The main ways I see any positive feeling in her is in enjoying food, sometimes entertainment but it still doesn't look like happiness. Thinking back on it she's been this way my entire life. And this isn't just toward me but in her life in general and it makes me wonder, what's broken in her mind/spirit/brain that this part of her experience seems to be missing? Does anyone else have a nada who seems to be missing the positive emotion chip in their brain? Is this just depression? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Adding more here...so the biggest missing thing I see in my BPD nada and NPD fada is empathy. I just read an article about how an *18 month old baby* is able to understand that an adult would want a different food to eat than the baby wants. That's only a year and a half and a skill my nada mostly does not have. What the hell happened to her? I just keep wanting answers as if maybe it'll all make it clearer how to deal with it all. Here's a link to the article about the baby empathy: http://wondertime.go.com/learning/article/baby-empathy.html > > So I'm thinking about how my nada has such a hard time with spontaneously feeling positive emotions in reaction to someone's difficulty like compassion or empathy. Also positive emotions of happiness or joy are incredibly rare as well. The main ways I see any positive feeling in her is in enjoying food, sometimes entertainment but it still doesn't look like happiness. Thinking back on it she's been this way my entire life. > > And this isn't just toward me but in her life in general and it makes me wonder, what's broken in her mind/spirit/brain that this part of her experience seems to be missing? > > Does anyone else have a nada who seems to be missing the positive emotion chip in their brain? Is this just depression? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Sometimes I wonder if it's not flat out impossible for someone with BPD to truly have empathy for someone else...even their own children. Their brain is just wired wrong, I believe. My mother did not have any empathy for anyone unless it somehow benefitted her. And generally even that was short lived and fake or just words with no emotion attached. Just a few examples of MY mother having empathy for me....or not....and I might have shared this before, can't remember. 1. I was pregnant with my oldest son and was told he had severe birth defects and would not live. I was around my 8th month and things were getting more and more stressful. I was a complete mess because the doctors said my baby had a 3% chance of living. My mother calls me one day and gives me this story about how her friend Jo had called her and asked her how SHE was doing with my pregnancy. She went on for the rest of my pregnancy about how NOBODY cared how it affected HER. Ugh. By the way, my son is in a wheelchair, but he's about to turn 12. 2. We adopted two children from foster care. They were probably 2 and 4 at the time and my husband and I had had a spat about something. I tell my mother (first mistake) and for weeks she starts badgering me and telling me to " leave THOSE kids in Georgia " and me and my biological son to leave and come to Florida to live with her. Totally ridiculous. And that's just 2 examples of how our relationship was. Re: missing positive emotions Adding more here...so the biggest missing thing I see in my BPD nada and NPD fada is empathy. I just read an article about how an *18 month old baby* is able to understand that an adult would want a different food to eat than the baby wants. That's only a year and a half and a skill my nada mostly does not have. What the hell happened to her? I just keep wanting answers as if maybe it'll all make it clearer how to deal with it all. Here's a link to the article about the baby empathy: http://wondertime.go.com/learning/article/baby-empathy.html > > So I'm thinking about how my nada has such a hard time with spontaneously feeling positive emotions in reaction to someone's difficulty like compassion or empathy. Also positive emotions of happiness or joy are incredibly rare as well. The main ways I see any positive feeling in her is in enjoying food, sometimes entertainment but it still doesn't look like happiness. Thinking back on it she's been this way my entire life. > > And this isn't just toward me but in her life in general and it makes me wonder, what's broken in her mind/spirit/brain that this part of her experience seems to be missing? > > Does anyone else have a nada who seems to be missing the positive emotion chip in their brain? Is this just depression? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Speaking about my own nada, I am not sure about empathy, I have to think about that more, but nada definitely has issues with feeling joy or contentment. I think it derives from her lack of personal identity. I mean, how can you be content or happy if you have no way of identifying yourself except in relationship to other people? In fact, it's only recently that I really began to construct my own identity and understand who I am apart from the environment I grew up in. I don't think I ever felt real happiness and contentment until I fully broke free (or course, damn myself for going to visit her and screwing my progress up). > > So I'm thinking about how my nada has such a hard time with spontaneously feeling positive emotions in reaction to someone's difficulty like compassion or empathy. Also positive emotions of happiness or joy are incredibly rare as well. The main ways I see any positive feeling in her is in enjoying food, sometimes entertainment but it still doesn't look like happiness. Thinking back on it she's been this way my entire life. > > And this isn't just toward me but in her life in general and it makes me wonder, what's broken in her mind/spirit/brain that this part of her experience seems to be missing? > > Does anyone else have a nada who seems to be missing the positive emotion chip in their brain? Is this just depression? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Thanks for the link to the article! I know what you mean; I would really like to understand what the hell is going on with personality disorder too. Why does it happen? How does it happen? My nada evidences what I call a " negative filter " . Incoming verbal and emotional information that is neutral or " gray " in tone goes through her " negative filter " and it is given a negative " spin. " I think this is called " cognitive distortion " and its a trait of general personality disorder. This tendency to view things negatively does not necessarily mean that anything bad/abusive was done to nada in babyhood; its just as likely that nada was born with an extremely hyper-sensitive temperament so that normal environmental fluctuations in the amount of face-time/attention, feeding, soothing she was getting did not match her needs. Nada *perceived* her environment to be invalidating. A temperamentally shy, anxious, hyper-sensitive (sensations felt as extreme, ie, discomfort=pain, mild hunger=extreme hunger, delay in feeding=abandonment, etc.) infant that becomes aroused/fearful easily and takes a much longer time to calm down again *would* have a hard time in even an average, normal, not-perfect environment. Perhaps when the hyper-sensitive, temperamentally anxious, fearful, not-easily-soothable infant's more extremely-felt needs are chronically unmet, the baby becomes chronically/persistently anxious and fearful, which turns into frustration, anger, and tantrums by toddlerhood. Maybe the emotional development gets stuck there. That's my theory for what happened in my own nada's case. I personally feel she is, at best, when she's in a good mood, about 4 years old. When she's emotionally disregulated, raging and pitching tantrums or crying hysterically I'd say 18 months is about right. My nada is a middle girl of three, and claims that she was perpetually ignored by her mother who didn't love her and preferred her older sister. This made my nada loathe her older sister, with whom she has always felt extremely competitive and jealous. I grew up hearing nada rant about how horrible Auntie the Elder was/is and yet this aunt has always been sweet, kind and gentle to me/us, and has never said one bad thing to me about my nada. (I personally think Auntie the Elder is a saint!) Lack of empathy is a trait of narcissistic pd, antisocial pd, and psychopathy (which according to Dr. Hare is a somewhat different, more extreme version of antisocial pd. According to him, all psychopaths have aspd, but not all those with aspd are psychopaths.) The most recent research appears to be leaning toward the conclusion that that particular quality: empathy, or lack of it is due to genetics. -Annie > > Adding more here...so the biggest missing thing I see in my BPD nada and NPD fada is empathy. I just read an article about how an *18 month old baby* is able to understand that an adult would want a different food to eat than the baby wants. That's only a year and a half and a skill my nada mostly does not have. What the hell happened to her? I just keep wanting answers as if maybe it'll all make it clearer how to deal with it all. > > Here's a link to the article about the baby empathy: > http://wondertime.go.com/learning/article/baby-empathy.html > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 I think empathy is difficult for them even when they aren't activated. It always surprised me when nada actually validated me about something. Unfortunately, I then expect it the next time and SLAM! My T even suggested the difficulty in experiencing empathy that bpd's show is a lot like what you see in autism. I'm sure I've seen something about that echoed here as well. They are just so busy fretting over themselves that they have no time for anyone else's 'trivial' issues (woo-woo, crazytown express in motion-lol). > > > > So I'm thinking about how my nada has such a hard time with spontaneously feeling positive emotions in reaction to someone's difficulty like compassion or empathy. Also positive emotions of happiness or joy are incredibly rare as well. The main ways I see any positive feeling in her is in enjoying food, sometimes entertainment but it still doesn't look like happiness. Thinking back on it she's been this way my entire life. > > > > And this isn't just toward me but in her life in general and it makes me wonder, what's broken in her mind/spirit/brain that this part of her experience seems to be missing? > > > > Does anyone else have a nada who seems to be missing the positive emotion chip in their brain? Is this just depression? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 My nada doesn't seem to be missing that computer " chip " in her brain. It's more like her whole head is a bag of potato chips that are broken and smashed at the bottom. All the components of a normal personality are there, but I don't know if she would ever be able to put them all together again without smashing it up some more. Okay, this makes me want to ask: Does anyone else find that their nada or fada prefers to go into a zombie-like state before it comes to really lashing out?? For instance, if a situation gets difficult for my nada, which is any situation that would elicit a happiness for someone else, herself, or pleasure in general, she gets kinda glassy-eyed. All of her answers turn into " I don't know, " and she will change the subject quickly to get away from it, or sometimes just walk out of the room in the middle of someone speaking to her. A couple years ago, during our Great Episode of 2008, she would sit in restaurants with us and just stare at the table, practically drooling. It looked like we had stolen her from a psych ward; the waitress and people at other tables were staring. That was just a week before she went completely, utterly, stark-raving mad, spitting, tearing up the house and yelling all day, every day. So I see that she will go into these trances to avoid empathy and happiness, but like a cat, she will lash out if it gets to be too much. Does anyone else experience this?? > > So I'm thinking about how my nada has such a hard time with spontaneously feeling positive emotions in reaction to someone's difficulty like compassion or empathy. Also positive emotions of happiness or joy are incredibly rare as well. The main ways I see any positive feeling in her is in enjoying food, sometimes entertainment but it still doesn't look like happiness. Thinking back on it she's been this way my entire life. > > And this isn't just toward me but in her life in general and it makes me wonder, what's broken in her mind/spirit/brain that this part of her experience seems to be missing? > > Does anyone else have a nada who seems to be missing the positive emotion chip in their brain? Is this just depression? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Annie, I definitely see that cognitive distortion with my nada and nadaunt strongly. It's amazing how easily they turn any event or thing into the negative direction. Genetics makes a lot of sense for the empathy problems. I guess I just keep questing for answers because maybe if I could know, really KNOW, why then I could let some of this anger and resentment go. Then again maybe not. That's interesting about the increased sensitivity working negatively. An example this shows clearly in the present with my nada is in restaurants. The second she realizes she wants the waiter to return to refill the water glass the clock starts ticking, her tension and anger starts building. It happens surprisingly fast and is close to ridiculous. It's like there's this directive in her brain " my needs will be met and every second there is a delay someone's in trouble! " I can only imagine how this translated to her experience of life as a child. Was Auntie the Elder (the saint) the one that talked her into going to the doc recently for the hallucinations? What happened? (sorry if you've already posted about this already, I've lost track of the posts lately) > > > > Adding more here...so the biggest missing thing I see in my BPD nada and NPD fada is empathy. I just read an article about how an *18 month old baby* is able to understand that an adult would want a different food to eat than the baby wants. That's only a year and a half and a skill my nada mostly does not have. What the hell happened to her? I just keep wanting answers as if maybe it'll all make it clearer how to deal with it all. > > > > Here's a link to the article about the baby empathy: > > http://wondertime.go.com/learning/article/baby-empathy.html > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Hummingbird and Echo, HB - those are some awful examples with your nada. I'm glad your son is still with you and sorry your own mother couldn't be moved by his and your situation. That sounds really difficult to deal with. Their lack of empathy is so profound it must be as you say they are wired wrong. Your example 2 reminded me of quite a few instances where my nada would use negative events in my life to push her own agenda - yours wanted you there with her not building a good life with your husband and children. They can be sadly transparent. Echo - very rarely my nada will seem to successfully empathize like yours. I think of it as the bad wiring briefly connects for a second...then I too get slammed to begin to hope that any real change in capacity has happened, it hasn't > > > > So I'm thinking about how my nada has such a hard time with spontaneously feeling positive emotions in reaction to someone's difficulty like compassion or empathy. Also positive emotions of happiness or joy are incredibly rare as well. The main ways I see any positive feeling in her is in enjoying food, sometimes entertainment but it still doesn't look like happiness. Thinking back on it she's been this way my entire life. > > > > And this isn't just toward me but in her life in general and it makes me wonder, what's broken in her mind/spirit/brain that this part of her experience seems to be missing? > > > > Does anyone else have a nada who seems to be missing the positive emotion chip in their brain? Is this just depression? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 , it sounds to me almost like your nada is having psychosis episodes...has she ever been evaluated? That strange glass eyed drooling state might be her disconnecting from reality. Whew...but yes much bigger problems than missing the positive emotion chip. Maybe some type of ptsd trigger in her get sets off? > > > > So I'm thinking about how my nada has such a hard time with spontaneously feeling positive emotions in reaction to someone's difficulty like compassion or empathy. Also positive emotions of happiness or joy are incredibly rare as well. The main ways I see any positive feeling in her is in enjoying food, sometimes entertainment but it still doesn't look like happiness. Thinking back on it she's been this way my entire life. > > > > And this isn't just toward me but in her life in general and it makes me wonder, what's broken in her mind/spirit/brain that this part of her experience seems to be missing? > > > > Does anyone else have a nada who seems to be missing the positive emotion chip in their brain? Is this just depression? > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 , maybe if they could be content or joyful they wouldn't expect so much or project so much crap onto us! I hear ya about needing to be separate to construct your own identity - I think I was mostly a shadow growing up and I feel like I fade away again on visits. > > Speaking about my own nada, I am not sure about empathy, I have to think about that more, but nada definitely has issues with feeling joy or contentment. I think it derives from her lack of personal identity. I mean, how can you be content or happy if you have no way of identifying yourself except in relationship to other people? In fact, it's only recently that I really began to construct my own identity and understand who I am apart from the environment I grew up in. I don't think I ever felt real happiness and contentment until I fully broke free (or course, damn myself for going to visit her and screwing my progress up). > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Does anyone ever experience that? Um, yes! I can't believe you actually brought it up; I hadn't really thought about it, but yes, nada absolutely shuts down before totally going berserk. > > > > So I'm thinking about how my nada has such a hard time with spontaneously feeling positive emotions in reaction to someone's difficulty like compassion or empathy. Also positive emotions of happiness or joy are incredibly rare as well. The main ways I see any positive feeling in her is in enjoying food, sometimes entertainment but it still doesn't look like happiness. Thinking back on it she's been this way my entire life. > > > > And this isn't just toward me but in her life in general and it makes me wonder, what's broken in her mind/spirit/brain that this part of her experience seems to be missing? > > > > Does anyone else have a nada who seems to be missing the positive emotion chip in their brain? Is this just depression? > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 She did used to attend a weekly therapy session, which she would *always* come out of crying, sometimes just utterly weeping. However, she never shared with any of us what she found out during those sessions or any evaluation he might have told her. Things did seem to get a little better during that time (it lasted about 2 years), but then she just... stopped going. She said that Jim (her therapist) couldn't help her anymore and that she didn't want to see him. Now she claims she doesn't need therapy and that all of us are cold hearted people who only care about ourselves and keeping up appearances and that we don't know how to love (right.. which is exactly why a wonderful man wants to marry me and she refuses to come to the wedding... *eye roll*) I don't know of anything that happened to her that would cause PTSD. At the drooly-time, she had just been served divorce papers for the 3rd time by my crappy-disgusting father (who she is still obsessed with being married to, even today *shudder*) and so her greatest fear, being abandoned, was about to be realized. I think the drooly-time was her initial shock that her greatest fear was about to happen. Then a few weeks later she had the atomic meltdown to avoid the reality of it. I wonder if maybe they were different types of " shields " she put up until one worked or the problem went away. > > > > > > So I'm thinking about how my nada has such a hard time with spontaneously feeling positive emotions in reaction to someone's difficulty like compassion or empathy. Also positive emotions of happiness or joy are incredibly rare as well. The main ways I see any positive feeling in her is in enjoying food, sometimes entertainment but it still doesn't look like happiness. Thinking back on it she's been this way my entire life. > > > > > > And this isn't just toward me but in her life in general and it makes me wonder, what's broken in her mind/spirit/brain that this part of her experience seems to be missing? > > > > > > Does anyone else have a nada who seems to be missing the positive emotion chip in their brain? Is this just depression? > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Hi, No, it was our Auntie the Younger who talked nada into going in to see a psychiatrist and agree to take the meds. Nada has always liked her younger sister. Last I heard, nada hasn't yet gone to see the psychiatrist, though. But my Sister hasn't reported any new episodes of hallucinating by nada, either, which is good. -Annie > > Annie, I definitely see that cognitive distortion with my nada and nadaunt strongly. It's amazing how easily they turn any event or thing into the negative direction. Genetics makes a lot of sense for the empathy problems. I guess I just keep questing for answers because maybe if I could know, really KNOW, why then I could let some of this anger and resentment go. Then again maybe not. > > That's interesting about the increased sensitivity working negatively. An example this shows clearly in the present with my nada is in restaurants. The second she realizes she wants the waiter to return to refill the water glass the clock starts ticking, her tension and anger starts building. It happens surprisingly fast and is close to ridiculous. It's like there's this directive in her brain " my needs will be met and every second there is a delay someone's in trouble! " I can only imagine how this translated to her experience of life as a child. > > Was Auntie the Elder (the saint) the one that talked her into going to the doc recently for the hallucinations? What happened? (sorry if you've already posted about this already, I've lost track of the posts lately) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2011 Report Share Posted February 11, 2011 Guess that makes more sense because your nada hates the Elder. That's great you've got an aunt she'll listen too though. I had hopes that my nadaunt would be more help with my nada than she's been, but then again there's a reason I call her nadaunt. Glad to hear your nada hasn't had any more hallucinations though - pd'd parents getting senile is a really scary thing. > > Hi, > No, it was our Auntie the Younger who talked nada into going in to see a psychiatrist and agree to take the meds. Nada has always liked her younger sister. Last I heard, nada hasn't yet gone to see the psychiatrist, though. But my Sister hasn't reported any new episodes of hallucinating by nada, either, which is good. > > -Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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