they damaged our friggin DNA

[Guest guest]

I can't even say how angry reading this makes me. Here's the link for those who

can stand to read it.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/139938.php

[Guest guest]

it made me feel sick and scared, and kind of even more powerless....like even if

we move to the OTHER side of the world to get away from them, have NC, set

boundaries, have a new supportive normal life...do everything in our power to

regain ourselves....there is still that ticking time bomb of screwed up DNA

inside.....so they can control us forever....from beyond the grave even....YIKES

aye yae yae

>

> I can't even say how angry reading this makes me. Here's the link for those

who can stand to read it.

>

> http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/139938.php

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry it made you feel upset but thanks for helping me feel not alone in my

reaction. I've always felt a bit bothered by having my genes from both parents

contain the potential for mental illness. My father has NPD maybe even

sociopathy and there's OCD in his family. On my nada's side BPD and NPD. There

are a few positive gifts that came with the genes too but the negative potential

always scared me.

But the idea that *specifically* because of how my nada raised me that certain

genes would be expressed in a harmful and different way than normal for the rest

of my life is just outrageous. That before I even tried to succeed as an

independent adult I was already set to be more vulnerable to trauma and to

suicide. I've fought suicidal ideation on and off for the last thirty years, I

have more of an idea why now.

I guess we already knew these things based in other ways of looking at things

nature vs.nurture, brain development, etc, but knowing that it goes down to the

GENES, genes that would have been GOOD otherwise just makes me furious. Oh and

in particular this stuff overactivates the immune system...I know on lists I've

been on in the past auto-immune problems are common. Maybe this is the link.

One bright side I did read at the bottom of one article about a treatment called

DNA methylation that's supposed to help reverse this. They just had a one-liner

about it, but maybe there's some research out there that can help us one day.

> >

> > I can't even say how angry reading this makes me. Here's the link for those

who can stand to read it.

> >

> > http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/139938.php

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Huh, I actually find this kind of comforting. It makes sense to me that the

way they treated me affected my brain and genetics. That's why i decided not

to pass their genes on to another generation. But this also makes me feel a

little less ashamed that I've spent so much of my life in a suicidal state,

just clinging to life by my fingernails. Maybe its not my fault, not a flaw

in my character, or anotehr fact about me that is sickening to the rest of

society. Maybe its just a consequence of childhood abuse.

On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:39 AM, climberkayak wrote:

>

>

> Sorry it made you feel upset but thanks for helping me feel not alone in my

> reaction. I've always felt a bit bothered by having my genes from both

> parents contain the potential for mental illness. My father has NPD maybe

> even sociopathy and there's OCD in his family. On my nada's side BPD and

> NPD. There are a few positive gifts that came with the genes too but the

> negative potential always scared me.

>

> But the idea that *specifically* because of how my nada raised me that

> certain genes would be expressed in a harmful and different way than normal

> for the rest of my life is just outrageous. That before I even tried to

> succeed as an independent adult I was already set to be more vulnerable to

> trauma and to suicide. I've fought suicidal ideation on and off for the last

> thirty years, I have more of an idea why now.

>

> I guess we already knew these things based in other ways of looking at

> things nature vs.nurture, brain development, etc, but knowing that it goes

> down to the GENES, genes that would have been GOOD otherwise just makes me

> furious. Oh and in particular this stuff overactivates the immune system...I

> know on lists I've been on in the past auto-immune problems are common.

> Maybe this is the link.

>

> One bright side I did read at the bottom of one article about a treatment

> called DNA methylation that's supposed to help reverse this. They just had a

> one-liner about it, but maybe there's some research out there that can help

> us one day.

>

>

>

>

>

> > >

> > > I can't even say how angry reading this makes me. Here's the link for

> those who can stand to read it.

> > >

> > > http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/139938.php

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Great... I'll finish reading this later. Have to get ready for appointments

at school. Just gotta say thanks to nada for something else. *sigh*

Mia

On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 4:03 AM, climberkayak wrote:

>

>

> I can't even say how angry reading this makes me. Here's the link for those

> who can stand to read it.

>

> http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/139938.php

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow. Thanks for the link. To me (and I'm no scientist, keep in mind) that

makes a stronger case for the innate resilience theory: if a particular child is

born with low sensitivity/high resilience, then even if more " stress " genes get

turned on due to abuse or neglect, the " resilience to stress " genes still

outnumber the epigenically-created stress genes and the child is still resistant

to suicidal depression.

Its mostly just the luck of the genetic roulette wheel, seems to me.

So, the way I wish the powers-that-be would interpret this is, hey: it should

be really, really clear now that good-enough mothering/fathering is THE most

important job on the planet! It should be clear that everyone needs parent

training and needs to know about child development, but only those who qualify

by virtue of taking the courses and passing the tests get to raise kids.

It just seems to me that the very criteria that define personality disorder, and

borderline pd in particular, are too damaged and dangerous to be raising kids

and are in fact leaving a great deal of damage and destruction in their wake.

-Annie

>

> I can't even say how angry reading this makes me. Here's the link for those

who can stand to read it.

>

> http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/139938.php

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I have a little different take on this article.

First , I m such a friggin geek. I found it fascinating!

lol

Next, this changes nothing for me. Knowledge is power. Look, we all

knew already, without knowing the mechanics of it, that being a KO

screwed us up. Living with a BP mom can t help but screw us up. We

didnt know all the details, but we knew we were f(((ed.

Once, before there was SWOE, we didnt recognize what was wrong with our

moms, just that something damn sure was. Then there was SWOE, and we

knew we were KOs. Absent that, we would not have each other, so again,

knowledge is power.

Once, before we learned, and grew, we didnt know we could set

boundaries, and take control of our own lives. Perhaps slowly and

painfully, one halting step at a time, but we can, and we , this group

at least, do, a little more all the time. Knowledge is power.

Once, before we understood FOG, we thought we were the crazy ones, the

ones at fault. Now we understand we were a symptom, not a cause. We

further understand that moving ourselves to a safe distance from the

cause can let healing begin.

Look at the remarkable progress some of us have made. We can t change

nada, but we Damn sure can change ourselves. Have changed ourselves.

Next, look closely at the study itself. Not trying to discount it, as

it may lead to treatments for PTSD and other maladies. But.

The study looked at only 12 brains from each group, control, suicides

who had been abused, suicides who had not.

This is a rather small sampling, and I d certainly want to see further

study before taking this as gospel. As to the suicides who had not

been abused, it would be more accurate to say had not reported abuse.

Not everyone talks about it. But suicides do have a cause. It also

does not specify in the " control " group, who did not die from suicide,

whether any of that group had a history of being abused. If any of

them did, that skews the outcome as well.

Interesting data, but further study needed. I d want to read the entire

study, and ask some of these questions which are not addressed in the

article.

The next point not addressed is, assuming the control is accurate, ie

that none of the control were abused, none of the 12 non abuse suicides

had any unreported abuse, the question of what happened to the 12 in the

study group between abuse and suicide. In other words, did they take

steps to heal, get support, get therapy, ect, or did they simply bear

the pain silently until it was too great to bear. It would be

interesting to see further study on the DNA expression between those who

were abused and did the work to heal, vs those who did not.

Finally there is this. We already knew something from our Nada s

affected us. It hurt and we suffered from the FOG, so we knew. We did

not know how, chemically. Perhaps this study points to some of the

answer to how our pain is stored in our brains at a physiological level.

And perhaps it does leave us with chemical markers and vulnerablities to

stress, depression, and suicide. Heredity and brain chemistry may have

some degree of effect on a predeliction for addiction.

But a vulnerablity is not a foregone conclusion. We may have a weakness

and vulnerable spot, but that does not change the message of hope we

share with each other on here.

We can still own our lives. We can be strong enough to be free from

nada , and let her be the one responsible for her madness or healing,

whichever she chooses. And we can heal.

Don t let this article cause you despair. It changes nothing. It just

, perhaps, shows us part of the mechanism for what we have known all our

lives was there. But we are the ones beating the game stacked against

us.

We CAN heal.

We WILL heal.

May we all heal.

Doug

[Guest guest]

I agree, Doug. I think that with more detailed knowledge comes more power and

more hope. If scientists can uncover the actual mechanisms, the

neuro-biological and/or genetic roots of dysfunction, then there is an improved

chance that mental illnesses can be more effectively treated, or maybe even

cured or prevented.

If child-rearing has a long-term impact on each individual *at the freaking DNA

level* then its VITAL to recognize that some people are excellent at

child-rearing, some are adequate, some are floundering and need more education

and training and supervision RE child-rearing, and others are horribly, horribly

bad at it!

I hope all this research will result in an improved quality of life for all of

us, sooner rather than later.

-Annie/anuria

>

>

> ,

>

> I have a little different take on this article.

>

> First , I m such a friggin geek. I found it fascinating!

>

> lol

>

> Next, this changes nothing for me. Knowledge is power. Look, we all

> knew already, without knowing the mechanics of it, that being a KO

> screwed us up. Living with a BP mom can t help but screw us up. We

> didnt know all the details, but we knew we were f(((ed.

>

> Once, before there was SWOE, we didnt recognize what was wrong with our

> moms, just that something damn sure was. Then there was SWOE, and we

> knew we were KOs. Absent that, we would not have each other, so again,

> knowledge is power.

>

> Once, before we learned, and grew, we didnt know we could set

> boundaries, and take control of our own lives. Perhaps slowly and

> painfully, one halting step at a time, but we can, and we , this group

> at least, do, a little more all the time. Knowledge is power.

>

> Once, before we understood FOG, we thought we were the crazy ones, the

> ones at fault. Now we understand we were a symptom, not a cause. We

> further understand that moving ourselves to a safe distance from the

> cause can let healing begin.

>

> Look at the remarkable progress some of us have made. We can t change

> nada, but we Damn sure can change ourselves. Have changed ourselves.

>

>

>

> Next, look closely at the study itself. Not trying to discount it, as

> it may lead to treatments for PTSD and other maladies. But.

>

> The study looked at only 12 brains from each group, control, suicides

> who had been abused, suicides who had not.

>

> This is a rather small sampling, and I d certainly want to see further

> study before taking this as gospel. As to the suicides who had not

> been abused, it would be more accurate to say had not reported abuse.

> Not everyone talks about it. But suicides do have a cause. It also

> does not specify in the " control " group, who did not die from suicide,

> whether any of that group had a history of being abused. If any of

> them did, that skews the outcome as well.

>

> Interesting data, but further study needed. I d want to read the entire

> study, and ask some of these questions which are not addressed in the

> article.

>

>

>

> The next point not addressed is, assuming the control is accurate, ie

> that none of the control were abused, none of the 12 non abuse suicides

> had any unreported abuse, the question of what happened to the 12 in the

> study group between abuse and suicide. In other words, did they take

> steps to heal, get support, get therapy, ect, or did they simply bear

> the pain silently until it was too great to bear. It would be

> interesting to see further study on the DNA expression between those who

> were abused and did the work to heal, vs those who did not.

>

> Finally there is this. We already knew something from our Nada s

> affected us. It hurt and we suffered from the FOG, so we knew. We did

> not know how, chemically. Perhaps this study points to some of the

> answer to how our pain is stored in our brains at a physiological level.

> And perhaps it does leave us with chemical markers and vulnerablities to

> stress, depression, and suicide. Heredity and brain chemistry may have

> some degree of effect on a predeliction for addiction.

>

> But a vulnerablity is not a foregone conclusion. We may have a weakness

> and vulnerable spot, but that does not change the message of hope we

> share with each other on here.

>

> We can still own our lives. We can be strong enough to be free from

> nada , and let her be the one responsible for her madness or healing,

> whichever she chooses. And we can heal.

>

> Don t let this article cause you despair. It changes nothing. It just

> , perhaps, shows us part of the mechanism for what we have known all our

> lives was there. But we are the ones beating the game stacked against

> us.

>

>

>

> We CAN heal.

>

> We WILL heal.

>

> May we all heal.

>

>

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

yes doug!  i agree completely.. we can overcome when we do our very best to try

one day at a time to heal.. and with help.. to believe otherwise is to condemn

ourselves to the kind of life our nada's would have us live, if we let them..

and as you so ably point out this study is really flawed..

thanks for your input as always!blessings, andmay we all heal indeed,ann

Subject: Re: they damaged our friggin DNA

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 10:35 AM

 

,

I have a little different take on this article.

First , I m such a friggin geek. I found it fascinating!

lol

Next, this changes nothing for me. Knowledge is power. Look, we all

knew already, without knowing the mechanics of it, that being a KO

screwed us up. Living with a BP mom can t help but screw us up. We

didnt know all the details, but we knew we were f(((ed.

Once, before there was SWOE, we didnt recognize what was wrong with our

moms, just that something damn sure was. Then there was SWOE, and we

knew we were KOs. Absent that, we would not have each other, so again,

knowledge is power.

Once, before we learned, and grew, we didnt know we could set

boundaries, and take control of our own lives. Perhaps slowly and

painfully, one halting step at a time, but we can, and we , this group

at least, do, a little more all the time. Knowledge is power.

Once, before we understood FOG, we thought we were the crazy ones, the

ones at fault. Now we understand we were a symptom, not a cause. We

further understand that moving ourselves to a safe distance from the

cause can let healing begin.

Look at the remarkable progress some of us have made. We can t change

nada, but we Damn sure can change ourselves. Have changed ourselves.

Next, look closely at the study itself. Not trying to discount it, as

it may lead to treatments for PTSD and other maladies. But.

The study looked at only 12 brains from each group, control, suicides

who had been abused, suicides who had not.

This is a rather small sampling, and I d certainly want to see further

study before taking this as gospel. As to the suicides who had not

been abused, it would be more accurate to say had not reported abuse.

Not everyone talks about it. But suicides do have a cause. It also

does not specify in the " control " group, who did not die from suicide,

whether any of that group had a history of being abused. If any of

them did, that skews the outcome as well.

Interesting data, but further study needed. I d want to read the entire

study, and ask some of these questions which are not addressed in the

article.

The next point not addressed is, assuming the control is accurate, ie

that none of the control were abused, none of the 12 non abuse suicides

had any unreported abuse, the question of what happened to the 12 in the

study group between abuse and suicide. In other words, did they take

steps to heal, get support, get therapy, ect, or did they simply bear

the pain silently until it was too great to bear. It would be

interesting to see further study on the DNA expression between those who

were abused and did the work to heal, vs those who did not.

Finally there is this. We already knew something from our Nada s

affected us. It hurt and we suffered from the FOG, so we knew. We did

not know how, chemically. Perhaps this study points to some of the

answer to how our pain is stored in our brains at a physiological level.

And perhaps it does leave us with chemical markers and vulnerablities to

stress, depression, and suicide. Heredity and brain chemistry may have

some degree of effect on a predeliction for addiction.

But a vulnerablity is not a foregone conclusion. We may have a weakness

and vulnerable spot, but that does not change the message of hope we

share with each other on here.

We can still own our lives. We can be strong enough to be free from

nada , and let her be the one responsible for her madness or healing,

whichever she chooses. And we can heal.

Don t let this article cause you despair. It changes nothing. It just

, perhaps, shows us part of the mechanism for what we have known all our

lives was there. But we are the ones beating the game stacked against

us.

We CAN heal.

We WILL heal.

May we all heal.

Doug

[Guest guest]

Awwww, Doug you are a very glass half-full kinda guy. And I could actually

argue the opposite side of this, but I won't because it's depressing. I will

share that there are more studies than this, particularly of interest are the

rat studies which support what was in this study. That may answer some of the

issues you found with this one.

I do very much agree with you though that HEALING has to be our focus. Whatever

damage was done, it's our job now to take advantage of the knowledge and help

available to make our lives the best they can be.

>

>

> ,

>

> I have a little different take on this article.

>

> First , I m such a friggin geek. I found it fascinating!

>

> lol

>

> Next, this changes nothing for me. Knowledge is power. Look, we all

> knew already, without knowing the mechanics of it, that being a KO

> screwed us up. Living with a BP mom can t help but screw us up. We

> didnt know all the details, but we knew we were f(((ed.

>

> Once, before there was SWOE, we didnt recognize what was wrong with our

> moms, just that something damn sure was. Then there was SWOE, and we

> knew we were KOs. Absent that, we would not have each other, so again,

> knowledge is power.

>

> Once, before we learned, and grew, we didnt know we could set

> boundaries, and take control of our own lives. Perhaps slowly and

> painfully, one halting step at a time, but we can, and we , this group

> at least, do, a little more all the time. Knowledge is power.

>

> Once, before we understood FOG, we thought we were the crazy ones, the

> ones at fault. Now we understand we were a symptom, not a cause. We

> further understand that moving ourselves to a safe distance from the

> cause can let healing begin.

>

> Look at the remarkable progress some of us have made. We can t change

> nada, but we Damn sure can change ourselves. Have changed ourselves.

>

>

>

> Next, look closely at the study itself. Not trying to discount it, as

> it may lead to treatments for PTSD and other maladies. But.

>

> The study looked at only 12 brains from each group, control, suicides

> who had been abused, suicides who had not.

>

> This is a rather small sampling, and I d certainly want to see further

> study before taking this as gospel. As to the suicides who had not

> been abused, it would be more accurate to say had not reported abuse.

> Not everyone talks about it. But suicides do have a cause. It also

> does not specify in the " control " group, who did not die from suicide,

> whether any of that group had a history of being abused. If any of

> them did, that skews the outcome as well.

>

> Interesting data, but further study needed. I d want to read the entire

> study, and ask some of these questions which are not addressed in the

> article.

>

>

>

> The next point not addressed is, assuming the control is accurate, ie

> that none of the control were abused, none of the 12 non abuse suicides

> had any unreported abuse, the question of what happened to the 12 in the

> study group between abuse and suicide. In other words, did they take

> steps to heal, get support, get therapy, ect, or did they simply bear

> the pain silently until it was too great to bear. It would be

> interesting to see further study on the DNA expression between those who

> were abused and did the work to heal, vs those who did not.

>

> Finally there is this. We already knew something from our Nada s

> affected us. It hurt and we suffered from the FOG, so we knew. We did

> not know how, chemically. Perhaps this study points to some of the

> answer to how our pain is stored in our brains at a physiological level.

> And perhaps it does leave us with chemical markers and vulnerablities to

> stress, depression, and suicide. Heredity and brain chemistry may have

> some degree of effect on a predeliction for addiction.

>

> But a vulnerablity is not a foregone conclusion. We may have a weakness

> and vulnerable spot, but that does not change the message of hope we

> share with each other on here.

>

> We can still own our lives. We can be strong enough to be free from

> nada , and let her be the one responsible for her madness or healing,

> whichever she chooses. And we can heal.

>

> Don t let this article cause you despair. It changes nothing. It just

> , perhaps, shows us part of the mechanism for what we have known all our

> lives was there. But we are the ones beating the game stacked against

> us.

>

>

>

> We CAN heal.

>

> We WILL heal.

>

> May we all heal.

>

>

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

Annie, that makes sense that a person would need to be deeply resilient to

handle the extra stress load....or that some aspect in them resisted the effects

of the epigenetic changes in the first place. And I so agree that parents need

tests, training and supervision...the cost if things go wrong to the children is

too high for the short and long-term.

>

> Wow. Thanks for the link. To me (and I'm no scientist, keep in mind) that

makes a stronger case for the innate resilience theory: if a particular child is

born with low sensitivity/high resilience, then even if more " stress " genes get

turned on due to abuse or neglect, the " resilience to stress " genes still

outnumber the epigenically-created stress genes and the child is still resistant

to suicidal depression.

>

> Its mostly just the luck of the genetic roulette wheel, seems to me.

>

> So, the way I wish the powers-that-be would interpret this is, hey: it should

be really, really clear now that good-enough mothering/fathering is THE most

important job on the planet! It should be clear that everyone needs parent

training and needs to know about child development, but only those who qualify

by virtue of taking the courses and passing the tests get to raise kids.

>

> It just seems to me that the very criteria that define personality disorder,

and borderline pd in particular, are too damaged and dangerous to be raising

kids and are in fact leaving a great deal of damage and destruction in their

wake.

>

> -Annie

[Guest guest]

Here's the rat study...it has a little more detail on how they reverse the

process in rats, gives a bit of hope. It's a nice read too, well presented.

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/rats/

>

> I can't even say how angry reading this makes me. Here's the link for those

who can stand to read it.

>

> http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/139938.php

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Actually, ,

I m more of an Oh Shit, the friggin glass is gonna fall off the sink and

break then I wont get a drink and I ll probably cut my toe on the glass

and get a damned infection kind of guy. By nature.

Part of the reason I m just climbing out of a deep, nearly defeating

bout of depression. That is my Go to attitude. That is my DNA

encoding, if you will.

Hope? That s a choice. One I have to make every day, one day at a

time. The alternative is a very bad place.

I think that being KO s left us more options for very bad places.

I m gonna choose hope and healing every day I m able. That may not

always be what I GET, you understand, but it s what I m going to select.

Cause in the other direction? Anyone stop to question how they found

those 12 suicide brains to examine?

There, but for grace, go I.

Doug

> >

> >

> > ,

> >

> > I have a little different take on this article.

> >

> > First , I m such a friggin geek. I found it fascinating!

> >

> > lol

> >

> > Next, this changes nothing for me. Knowledge is power. Look, we all

> > knew already, without knowing the mechanics of it, that being a KO

> > screwed us up. Living with a BP mom can t help but screw us up. We

> > didnt know all the details, but we knew we were f(((ed.

> >

> > Once, before there was SWOE, we didnt recognize what was wrong with

our

> > moms, just that something damn sure was. Then there was SWOE, and we

> > knew we were KOs. Absent that, we would not have each other, so

again,

> > knowledge is power.

> >

> > Once, before we learned, and grew, we didnt know we could set

> > boundaries, and take control of our own lives. Perhaps slowly and

> > painfully, one halting step at a time, but we can, and we , this

group

> > at least, do, a little more all the time. Knowledge is power.

> >

> > Once, before we understood FOG, we thought we were the crazy ones,

the

> > ones at fault. Now we understand we were a symptom, not a cause. We

> > further understand that moving ourselves to a safe distance from the

> > cause can let healing begin.

> >

> > Look at the remarkable progress some of us have made. We can t

change

> > nada, but we Damn sure can change ourselves. Have changed ourselves.

> >

> >

> >

> > Next, look closely at the study itself. Not trying to discount it,

as

> > it may lead to treatments for PTSD and other maladies. But.

> >

> > The study looked at only 12 brains from each group, control,

suicides

> > who had been abused, suicides who had not.

> >

> > This is a rather small sampling, and I d certainly want to see

further

> > study before taking this as gospel. As to the suicides who had not

> > been abused, it would be more accurate to say had not reported

abuse.

> > Not everyone talks about it. But suicides do have a cause. It also

> > does not specify in the " control " group, who did not die from

suicide,

> > whether any of that group had a history of being abused. If any of

> > them did, that skews the outcome as well.

> >

> > Interesting data, but further study needed. I d want to read the

entire

> > study, and ask some of these questions which are not addressed in

the

> > article.

> >

> >

> >

> > The next point not addressed is, assuming the control is accurate,

ie

> > that none of the control were abused, none of the 12 non abuse

suicides

> > had any unreported abuse, the question of what happened to the 12 in

the

> > study group between abuse and suicide. In other words, did they take

> > steps to heal, get support, get therapy, ect, or did they simply

bear

> > the pain silently until it was too great to bear. It would be

> > interesting to see further study on the DNA expression between those

who

> > were abused and did the work to heal, vs those who did not.

> >

> > Finally there is this. We already knew something from our Nada s

> > affected us. It hurt and we suffered from the FOG, so we knew. We

did

> > not know how, chemically. Perhaps this study points to some of the

> > answer to how our pain is stored in our brains at a physiological

level.

> > And perhaps it does leave us with chemical markers and

vulnerablities to

> > stress, depression, and suicide. Heredity and brain chemistry may

have

> > some degree of effect on a predeliction for addiction.

> >

> > But a vulnerablity is not a foregone conclusion. We may have a

weakness

> > and vulnerable spot, but that does not change the message of hope we

> > share with each other on here.

> >

> > We can still own our lives. We can be strong enough to be free from

> > nada , and let her be the one responsible for her madness or

healing,

> > whichever she chooses. And we can heal.

> >

> > Don t let this article cause you despair. It changes nothing. It

just

> > , perhaps, shows us part of the mechanism for what we have known all

our

> > lives was there. But we are the ones beating the game stacked

against

> > us.

> >

> >

> >

> > We CAN heal.

> >

> > We WILL heal.

> >

> > May we all heal.

> >

> >

> >

> > Doug

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Doug glad to hear you are climbing out of the depression pit...and I still

think you are quite a positive fellow I think even to be able to feel one

has the choice available for hope is a gift in itself.

> >

> > Awwww, Doug you are a very glass half-full kinda guy. And I could

> actually argue the opposite side of this, but I won't because it's

> depressing. I will share that there are more studies than this,

> particularly of interest are the rat studies which support what was in

> this study. That may answer some of the issues you found with this one.

> >

> > I do very much agree with you though that HEALING has to be our focus.

> Whatever damage was done, it's our job now to take advantage of the

> knowledge and help available to make our lives the best they can be.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I say - " Nada you damaged my DNA? " BRING IT ON!!!! That's nothing compared

to damaging my childhood psyche. DNA is nothing - I'm gonna fight it!

On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 4:09 PM, climberkayak wrote:

>

>

> Hi Doug glad to hear you are climbing out of the depression pit...and I

> still think you are quite a positive fellow I think even to be able to

> feel one has the choice available for hope is a gift in itself.

>

>

>

>

>

> > >

> > > Awwww, Doug you are a very glass half-full kinda guy. And I could

> > actually argue the opposite side of this, but I won't because it's

> > depressing. I will share that there are more studies than this,

> > particularly of interest are the rat studies which support what was in

> > this study. That may answer some of the issues you found with this one.

> > >

> > > I do very much agree with you though that HEALING has to be our focus.

> > Whatever damage was done, it's our job now to take advantage of the

> > knowledge and help available to make our lives the best they can be.

> > >

> > >

> > >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Doug,

Thank you for your positive and affirming words. They really help!

Arianna

>

>

> ,

>

> I have a little different take on this article.

>

> First , I m such a friggin geek. I found it fascinating!

>

> lol

>

> Next, this changes nothing for me. Knowledge is power. Look, we all

> knew already, without knowing the mechanics of it, that being a KO

> screwed us up. Living with a BP mom can t help but screw us up. We

> didnt know all the details, but we knew we were f(((ed.

>

> Once, before there was SWOE, we didnt recognize what was wrong with our

> moms, just that something damn sure was. Then there was SWOE, and we

> knew we were KOs. Absent that, we would not have each other, so again,

> knowledge is power.

>

> Once, before we learned, and grew, we didnt know we could set

> boundaries, and take control of our own lives. Perhaps slowly and

> painfully, one halting step at a time, but we can, and we , this group

> at least, do, a little more all the time. Knowledge is power.

>

> Once, before we understood FOG, we thought we were the crazy ones, the

> ones at fault. Now we understand we were a symptom, not a cause. We

> further understand that moving ourselves to a safe distance from the

> cause can let healing begin.

>

> Look at the remarkable progress some of us have made. We can t change

> nada, but we Damn sure can change ourselves. Have changed ourselves.

>

>

>

> Next, look closely at the study itself. Not trying to discount it, as

> it may lead to treatments for PTSD and other maladies. But.

>

> The study looked at only 12 brains from each group, control, suicides

> who had been abused, suicides who had not.

>

> This is a rather small sampling, and I d certainly want to see further

> study before taking this as gospel. As to the suicides who had not

> been abused, it would be more accurate to say had not reported abuse.

> Not everyone talks about it. But suicides do have a cause. It also

> does not specify in the " control " group, who did not die from suicide,

> whether any of that group had a history of being abused. If any of

> them did, that skews the outcome as well.

>

> Interesting data, but further study needed. I d want to read the entire

> study, and ask some of these questions which are not addressed in the

> article.

>

>

>

> The next point not addressed is, assuming the control is accurate, ie

> that none of the control were abused, none of the 12 non abuse suicides

> had any unreported abuse, the question of what happened to the 12 in the

> study group between abuse and suicide. In other words, did they take

> steps to heal, get support, get therapy, ect, or did they simply bear

> the pain silently until it was too great to bear. It would be

> interesting to see further study on the DNA expression between those who

> were abused and did the work to heal, vs those who did not.

>

> Finally there is this. We already knew something from our Nada s

> affected us. It hurt and we suffered from the FOG, so we knew. We did

> not know how, chemically. Perhaps this study points to some of the

> answer to how our pain is stored in our brains at a physiological level.

> And perhaps it does leave us with chemical markers and vulnerablities to

> stress, depression, and suicide. Heredity and brain chemistry may have

> some degree of effect on a predeliction for addiction.

>

> But a vulnerablity is not a foregone conclusion. We may have a weakness

> and vulnerable spot, but that does not change the message of hope we

> share with each other on here.

>

> We can still own our lives. We can be strong enough to be free from

> nada , and let her be the one responsible for her madness or healing,

> whichever she chooses. And we can heal.

>

> Don t let this article cause you despair. It changes nothing. It just

> , perhaps, shows us part of the mechanism for what we have known all our

> lives was there. But we are the ones beating the game stacked against

> us.

>

>

>

> We CAN heal.

>

> We WILL heal.

>

> May we all heal.

>

>

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

Doug, I am so proud of you for choosing to walk out of your depression.Every

time I read a post from you I am encouraged.every time you make that choice to

choose hope you are walking in faith.You are an encouragement and a blessing!

> > >

> > >

> > > ,

> > >

> > > I have a little different take on this article.

> > >

> > > First , I m such a friggin geek. I found it fascinating!

> > >

> > > lol

> > >

> > > Next, this changes nothing for me. Knowledge is power. Look, we all

> > > knew already, without knowing the mechanics of it, that being a KO

> > > screwed us up. Living with a BP mom can t help but screw us up. We

> > > didnt know all the details, but we knew we were f(((ed.

> > >

> > > Once, before there was SWOE, we didnt recognize what was wrong with

> our

> > > moms, just that something damn sure was. Then there was SWOE, and we

> > > knew we were KOs. Absent that, we would not have each other, so

> again,

> > > knowledge is power.

> > >

> > > Once, before we learned, and grew, we didnt know we could set

> > > boundaries, and take control of our own lives. Perhaps slowly and

> > > painfully, one halting step at a time, but we can, and we , this

> group

> > > at least, do, a little more all the time. Knowledge is power.

> > >

> > > Once, before we understood FOG, we thought we were the crazy ones,

> the

> > > ones at fault. Now we understand we were a symptom, not a cause. We

> > > further understand that moving ourselves to a safe distance from the

> > > cause can let healing begin.

> > >

> > > Look at the remarkable progress some of us have made. We can t

> change

> > > nada, but we Damn sure can change ourselves. Have changed ourselves.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Next, look closely at the study itself. Not trying to discount it,

> as

> > > it may lead to treatments for PTSD and other maladies. But.

> > >

> > > The study looked at only 12 brains from each group, control,

> suicides

> > > who had been abused, suicides who had not.

> > >

> > > This is a rather small sampling, and I d certainly want to see

> further

> > > study before taking this as gospel. As to the suicides who had not

> > > been abused, it would be more accurate to say had not reported

> abuse.

> > > Not everyone talks about it. But suicides do have a cause. It also

> > > does not specify in the " control " group, who did not die from

> suicide,

> > > whether any of that group had a history of being abused. If any of

> > > them did, that skews the outcome as well.

> > >

> > > Interesting data, but further study needed. I d want to read the

> entire

> > > study, and ask some of these questions which are not addressed in

> the

> > > article.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > The next point not addressed is, assuming the control is accurate,

> ie

> > > that none of the control were abused, none of the 12 non abuse

> suicides

> > > had any unreported abuse, the question of what happened to the 12 in

> the

> > > study group between abuse and suicide. In other words, did they take

> > > steps to heal, get support, get therapy, ect, or did they simply

> bear

> > > the pain silently until it was too great to bear. It would be

> > > interesting to see further study on the DNA expression between those

> who

> > > were abused and did the work to heal, vs those who did not.

> > >

> > > Finally there is this. We already knew something from our Nada s

> > > affected us. It hurt and we suffered from the FOG, so we knew. We

> did

> > > not know how, chemically. Perhaps this study points to some of the

> > > answer to how our pain is stored in our brains at a physiological

> level.

> > > And perhaps it does leave us with chemical markers and

> vulnerablities to

> > > stress, depression, and suicide. Heredity and brain chemistry may

> have

> > > some degree of effect on a predeliction for addiction.

> > >

> > > But a vulnerablity is not a foregone conclusion. We may have a

> weakness

> > > and vulnerable spot, but that does not change the message of hope we

> > > share with each other on here.

> > >

> > > We can still own our lives. We can be strong enough to be free from

> > > nada , and let her be the one responsible for her madness or

> healing,

> > > whichever she chooses. And we can heal.

> > >

> > > Don t let this article cause you despair. It changes nothing. It

> just

> > > , perhaps, shows us part of the mechanism for what we have known all

> our

> > > lives was there. But we are the ones beating the game stacked

> against

> > > us.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > We CAN heal.

> > >

> > > We WILL heal.

> > >

> > > May we all heal.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Doug

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I agree with the ideas in the rat study. So our Nadas screwed us up on many

levels growing up. But in line with what I believe in, we can change this. I

don't think this is fixed and if we can make the changes, get the help and find

positive environments, I think we can change this. I don't think anything is

ever fixed in stone, it just takes a lot of hard work sometimes. Hurts like

hell, seems never ending, but is not impossible. My philosophy is, this is my

life, I am an adult now and I am taking back control of it and living it how I

want to live it, by what is important to me and what i believe in. Am I screwed

up, sure am, but I just try to live every day the best that I can, and little

bit, by little bit, things get better.

Life is a continual evolution, as are we. Our Nada's screwed things up pretty

badly for us to start with, so we've got a bit more work to do. But I don't ever

think it is impossible to change this. Science knows so very little about the

brain and how it works, except that the systems we have internally are

incredible things.

So I'm a bit screwed up, does this reflect on me as a person, no way (and maybe

one day I'll even believe this too) and I have every ability to live a healthy,

happy life. As I said, it will take some work, but no matter what science may

suggest it is possible to change this. If I went by statistics, I should never

have gone to University, I should never have got the job I have, earn the money

I am, and not have gone further than I have when depressed. We can reclaim our

lives back from the abuse, and we can claim our lives back from our dna. I truly

believe this and no matter how depressed I get, I never entirely lose sight of

this. What we do, the changes we make, can make a difference in our lives. We

can make things better. This is my life, and this is how I choose to live it.

Sorry about the rant, but this really goes to the core of why I get up every

morning and is really important to me and has gotten me through some tough

times.

Jodie

[Guest guest]

My position on this is: the damage that severely bad emotional abuse does to

children is deadly serious. It actually alters the child's DNA expression which

creates a negative physical as well as a negative emotional impact, possibly for

life.

That is why it is so very important to get the word out about how SERIOUS

emotional abuse is: it can do real, measurable, permanent damage to a growing

child's psyche, just as bad as physical abuse and sexual abuse violates and

damages their bodies.

There is emotional abuse that is like... a bruise: we can usually heal from this

on our own.

There is emotional abuse that is like a deep cut: we can't heal from this on our

own, we need help to stop the bleeding. The wound needs to be cleaned and

stitched up in order for it to heal properly, and maybe an antibiotic if it

becomes infected. A scar on the healed cut reminds us that it happened.

And there is emotional abuse that is like a mangled, amputated limb. The

crushing and mangling is so severe that the limb can't be reattached, and it is

simply not possible to grow the arm or leg back no matter how hard we wish it.

In those cases, all we can do is get ourselves a prosthetic limb and learn how

to use it to the best of our ability.

There are some wounds that can't heal; limbs torn off can't be regrown, BUT we

can endure, do the best we can and have as good, positive and fulfilling a life

as we possibly can *in spite of* our injury.

If emotional abuse were as *visible* as physical abuse, the children of the

personality-disordered wouldn't have to endure much of it: they'd be rescued by

appalled relatives /neighbors /mandated reporters /strangers pretty early in

life.

So yes, I believe in the power of positive thinking and in striving to achieve

to the best of our abilities, but I also believe that some injuries and damage

are so very avoidable and to inflict them on helpless children is simply

unconscionable.

Severely mentally ill, personality-disordered people should not be raising

children, because it is virtually guaranteed that the children will receive

severe, even crippling emotional, physical, sexual and/or spiritual damage.

Its like giving a weanling puppy to a 2-year-old to care for alone and

unsupervised. Its like giving a mouse to a cat to nurture and then walking

away, expecting to return and find the mouse alive and well.

BPD is referred to by NIMH and the Mayo Clinic as " a severe mental illness " and

yet children are left in the (sometimes) sole care of mothers with bpd; I can't

wrap my mind around how shockingly unconscionable that is! It needs to be

stopped!

-Annie

>

> Hi ,

>

> I agree with the ideas in the rat study. So our Nadas screwed us up on many

levels growing up. But in line with what I believe in, we can change this. I

don't think this is fixed and if we can make the changes, get the help and find

positive environments, I think we can change this. I don't think anything is

ever fixed in stone, it just takes a lot of hard work sometimes. Hurts like

hell, seems never ending, but is not impossible. My philosophy is, this is my

life, I am an adult now and I am taking back control of it and living it how I

want to live it, by what is important to me and what i believe in. Am I screwed

up, sure am, but I just try to live every day the best that I can, and little

bit, by little bit, things get better.

>

> Life is a continual evolution, as are we. Our Nada's screwed things up pretty

badly for us to start with, so we've got a bit more work to do. But I don't ever

think it is impossible to change this. Science knows so very little about the

brain and how it works, except that the systems we have internally are

incredible things.

>

> So I'm a bit screwed up, does this reflect on me as a person, no way (and

maybe one day I'll even believe this too) and I have every ability to live a

healthy, happy life. As I said, it will take some work, but no matter what

science may suggest it is possible to change this. If I went by statistics, I

should never have gone to University, I should never have got the job I have,

earn the money I am, and not have gone further than I have when depressed. We

can reclaim our lives back from the abuse, and we can claim our lives back from

our dna. I truly believe this and no matter how depressed I get, I never

entirely lose sight of this. What we do, the changes we make, can make a

difference in our lives. We can make things better. This is my life, and this is

how I choose to live it.

>

> Sorry about the rant, but this really goes to the core of why I get up every

morning and is really important to me and has gotten me through some tough

times.

>

> Jodie

>

[Guest guest]

That's precisely why I'm so worried about my four little siblings still at

home. While I have some supportive relatives, they're afraid that they'll be

cut off like me so they don't speak up for the little ones, playing along

with fada's games just so they can be a presence in the little ones' lives.

The worst part is that they're homeschooled. Now, I like homeschooling, but

some people should NOT homeschool their kids. So, my siblings have no one to

turn to.

I've called CPS last summer, after I moved 2 states away 'cause I was afraid

fada would show up and harass me when I still lived in town. And recently DH

called CPS, after gathering up enough courage to do so.

I just wish I knew what was happening, if anything I would gladly take

custody of all four of them if necessary, to save them from the deep cut

emotional terror they experience, the whole eggshell business.

Holly

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:12 AM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> My position on this is: the damage that severely bad emotional abuse does

> to children is deadly serious. It actually alters the child's DNA expression

> which creates a negative physical as well as a negative emotional impact,

> possibly for life.

>

> That is why it is so very important to get the word out about how SERIOUS

> emotional abuse is: it can do real, measurable, permanent damage to a

> growing child's psyche, just as bad as physical abuse and sexual abuse

> violates and damages their bodies.

>

> There is emotional abuse that is like... a bruise: we can usually heal from

> this on our own.

>

> There is emotional abuse that is like a deep cut: we can't heal from this

> on our own, we need help to stop the bleeding. The wound needs to be cleaned

> and stitched up in order for it to heal properly, and maybe an antibiotic if

> it becomes infected. A scar on the healed cut reminds us that it happened.

>

> And there is emotional abuse that is like a mangled, amputated limb. The

> crushing and mangling is so severe that the limb can't be reattached, and it

> is simply not possible to grow the arm or leg back no matter how hard we

> wish it. In those cases, all we can do is get ourselves a prosthetic limb

> and learn how to use it to the best of our ability.

>

> There are some wounds that can't heal; limbs torn off can't be regrown, BUT

> we can endure, do the best we can and have as good, positive and fulfilling

> a life as we possibly can *in spite of* our injury.

>

> If emotional abuse were as *visible* as physical abuse, the children of the

> personality-disordered wouldn't have to endure much of it: they'd be rescued

> by appalled relatives /neighbors /mandated reporters /strangers pretty early

> in life.

>

> So yes, I believe in the power of positive thinking and in striving to

> achieve to the best of our abilities, but I also believe that some injuries

> and damage are so very avoidable and to inflict them on helpless children is

> simply unconscionable.

>

> Severely mentally ill, personality-disordered people should not be raising

> children, because it is virtually guaranteed that the children will receive

> severe, even crippling emotional, physical, sexual and/or spiritual damage.

>

> Its like giving a weanling puppy to a 2-year-old to care for alone and

> unsupervised. Its like giving a mouse to a cat to nurture and then walking

> away, expecting to return and find the mouse alive and well.

>

> BPD is referred to by NIMH and the Mayo Clinic as " a severe mental illness "

> and yet children are left in the (sometimes) sole care of mothers with bpd;

> I can't wrap my mind around how shockingly unconscionable that is! It needs

> to be stopped!

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > I agree with the ideas in the rat study. So our Nadas screwed us up on

> many levels growing up. But in line with what I believe in, we can change

> this. I don't think this is fixed and if we can make the changes, get the

> help and find positive environments, I think we can change this. I don't

> think anything is ever fixed in stone, it just takes a lot of hard work

> sometimes. Hurts like hell, seems never ending, but is not impossible. My

> philosophy is, this is my life, I am an adult now and I am taking back

> control of it and living it how I want to live it, by what is important to

> me and what i believe in. Am I screwed up, sure am, but I just try to live

> every day the best that I can, and little bit, by little bit, things get

> better.

> >

> > Life is a continual evolution, as are we. Our Nada's screwed things up

> pretty badly for us to start with, so we've got a bit more work to do. But I

> don't ever think it is impossible to change this. Science knows so very

> little about the brain and how it works, except that the systems we have

> internally are incredible things.

> >

> > So I'm a bit screwed up, does this reflect on me as a person, no way (and

> maybe one day I'll even believe this too) and I have every ability to live a

> healthy, happy life. As I said, it will take some work, but no matter what

> science may suggest it is possible to change this. If I went by statistics,

> I should never have gone to University, I should never have got the job I

> have, earn the money I am, and not have gone further than I have when

> depressed. We can reclaim our lives back from the abuse, and we can claim

> our lives back from our dna. I truly believe this and no matter how

> depressed I get, I never entirely lose sight of this. What we do, the

> changes we make, can make a difference in our lives. We can make things

> better. This is my life, and this is how I choose to live it.

> >

> > Sorry about the rant, but this really goes to the core of why I get up

> every morning and is really important to me and has gotten me through some

> tough times.

> >

> > Jodie

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kudos to you, Holly, for even trying to rescue your younger siblings. That

takes both compassion and a lot of guts. It almost sounds like those kids are

prisoners of your pd dad, prisoners in their own home who aren't allowed contact

with any outsiders who might help them. Do the kids have any peer contacts at

all? Do they ever go play with friends at their friend's houses? Do they

attend any kind of church outside the home? Do they participate in group

sporting events, recitals, etc?

The only idea that occurs to me is to see if you can find out who your siblings'

pediatrician is, and ask for a meeting with that individual and express your

concerns. That, and contact a lawyer. Its a serious and difficult business

trying to prove that parents are unfit or dangerous to their children, and

you'll need all the help you can get.

Best of luck to you, I think you are heroic to even attempt this.

-Annie

>

> That's precisely why I'm so worried about my four little siblings still at

> home. While I have some supportive relatives, they're afraid that they'll be

> cut off like me so they don't speak up for the little ones, playing along

> with fada's games just so they can be a presence in the little ones' lives.

>

> The worst part is that they're homeschooled. Now, I like homeschooling, but

> some people should NOT homeschool their kids. So, my siblings have no one to

> turn to.

>

> I've called CPS last summer, after I moved 2 states away 'cause I was afraid

> fada would show up and harass me when I still lived in town. And recently DH

> called CPS, after gathering up enough courage to do so.

>

> I just wish I knew what was happening, if anything I would gladly take

> custody of all four of them if necessary, to save them from the deep cut

> emotional terror they experience, the whole eggshell business.

>

> Holly

[Guest guest]

Thankfully, they go to church and play with the neighbor kids, and I think

they have a few homeschooler friends and partake in some homeschool

activities, but it's always supervised play and my dad works mostly from

home which complicates things.

I know the family doctor--and I've debated bringing that up with him before.

Maybe I can schedule a meeting with him the next time I'm back there. He's

the one who also tends to my parents, and diagnosed my dad's depression.

Also, I've been meaning to email the priest who's friends of my sister in

law's family--he was the pastor of our parish for many years--and ask him if

he noticed anything. Being a priest, he'd be a mandated reporter, as well.

Part of me is scared because I went LC with fada, and in retaliation he went

NC with me and enforced NC with the rest of the family. I used to try to

send cards to my siblings but after I sent Christmas gifts a couple years

ago, they said they'd send the gifts back the next time I mailed anything.

So...I'm scared to even raise his ire.

But I'm even more afraid for my siblings. Thanks for reminding me about

talking to their doctor about it--there's still a few avenues of hope I can

pursue.

Holly

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 1:23 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Kudos to you, Holly, for even trying to rescue your younger siblings. That

> takes both compassion and a lot of guts. It almost sounds like those kids

> are prisoners of your pd dad, prisoners in their own home who aren't allowed

> contact with any outsiders who might help them. Do the kids have any peer

> contacts at all? Do they ever go play with friends at their friend's houses?

> Do they attend any kind of church outside the home? Do they participate in

> group sporting events, recitals, etc?

>

> The only idea that occurs to me is to see if you can find out who your

> siblings' pediatrician is, and ask for a meeting with that individual and

> express your concerns. That, and contact a lawyer. Its a serious and

> difficult business trying to prove that parents are unfit or dangerous to

> their children, and you'll need all the help you can get.

>

> Best of luck to you, I think you are heroic to even attempt this.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > That's precisely why I'm so worried about my four little siblings still

> at

> > home. While I have some supportive relatives, they're afraid that they'll

> be

> > cut off like me so they don't speak up for the little ones, playing along

> > with fada's games just so they can be a presence in the little ones'

> lives.

> >

> > The worst part is that they're homeschooled. Now, I like homeschooling,

> but

> > some people should NOT homeschool their kids. So, my siblings have no one

> to

> > turn to.

> >

> > I've called CPS last summer, after I moved 2 states away 'cause I was

> afraid

> > fada would show up and harass me when I still lived in town. And recently

> DH

> > called CPS, after gathering up enough courage to do so.

> >

> > I just wish I knew what was happening, if anything I would gladly take

> > custody of all four of them if necessary, to save them from the deep cut

> > emotional terror they experience, the whole eggshell business.

> >

> > Holly

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jodie, I have the feeling that this article struck a nerve a bit for you and

some others here. I think that there is value in acknowledging the damage.

That doesn't mean that we don't work like hell to overcome that damage and take

advantage of every opportunity we can in our lives. To me it's valuable to know

that there may be a reason at the DNA expression level as to why depression and

trauma have been such issues in my life even outside of interactions with my

nada. It weirdly lifts the self-blame I feel about it, and helps me to feel

more committed that I must find conscious actions to counteract it. So we're

in agreement there I think!

You mentioned we know so little about how the brain works, but these studies are

a huge step forward in our knowledge of exactly that. While my reaction

initially reading it was to despair, I now look at it as an even stronger call

to action.

Still like Annie said let's not make light of this - these results are very

sobering and show how serious it is for any child to grow up with an mentally

ill mother. And while we can be strong, brave, resilient and creative...it's

still a shame that we *have* to be to lead a good life.

>

> Hi ,

>

> I agree with the ideas in the rat study. So our Nadas screwed us up on many

levels growing up. But in line with what I believe in, we can change this. I

don't think this is fixed and if we can make the changes, get the help and find

positive environments, I think we can change this. I don't think anything is

ever fixed in stone, it just takes a lot of hard work sometimes. Hurts like

hell, seems never ending, but is not impossible. My philosophy is, this is my

life, I am an adult now and I am taking back control of it and living it how I

want to live it, by what is important to me and what i believe in. Am I screwed

up, sure am, but I just try to live every day the best that I can, and little

bit, by little bit, things get better.

>

> Life is a continual evolution, as are we. Our Nada's screwed things up pretty

badly for us to start with, so we've got a bit more work to do. But I don't ever

think it is impossible to change this. Science knows so very little about the

brain and how it works, except that the systems we have internally are

incredible things.

>

> So I'm a bit screwed up, does this reflect on me as a person, no way (and

maybe one day I'll even believe this too) and I have every ability to live a

healthy, happy life. As I said, it will take some work, but no matter what

science may suggest it is possible to change this. If I went by statistics, I

should never have gone to University, I should never have got the job I have,

earn the money I am, and not have gone further than I have when depressed. We

can reclaim our lives back from the abuse, and we can claim our lives back from

our dna. I truly believe this and no matter how depressed I get, I never

entirely lose sight of this. What we do, the changes we make, can make a

difference in our lives. We can make things better. This is my life, and this is

how I choose to live it.

>

> Sorry about the rant, but this really goes to the core of why I get up every

morning and is really important to me and has gotten me through some tough

times.

>

> Jodie

>

[Guest guest]

Amen Annie - I wish every child out there right now growing up in damaging

conditions to be rescued. It's only once " the powers that be " finally get it

the level of harm to the individual accumulates to a level of harm done to

society and takes action will this ever change. We've had a lot of threads

about how most of us on this board were reslient, but how many here have written

of siblings that weren't resilient enough? Like I wrote to Jodie we should

HAVE to be super-star resilient material just to get to a live a normal life.

>

> My position on this is: the damage that severely bad emotional abuse does to

children is deadly serious. It actually alters the child's DNA expression which

creates a negative physical as well as a negative emotional impact, possibly for

life.

>

> That is why it is so very important to get the word out about how SERIOUS

emotional abuse is: it can do real, measurable, permanent damage to a growing

child's psyche, just as bad as physical abuse and sexual abuse violates and

damages their bodies.

>

> There is emotional abuse that is like... a bruise: we can usually heal from

this on our own.

>

> There is emotional abuse that is like a deep cut: we can't heal from this on

our own, we need help to stop the bleeding. The wound needs to be cleaned and

stitched up in order for it to heal properly, and maybe an antibiotic if it

becomes infected. A scar on the healed cut reminds us that it happened.

>

> And there is emotional abuse that is like a mangled, amputated limb. The

crushing and mangling is so severe that the limb can't be reattached, and it is

simply not possible to grow the arm or leg back no matter how hard we wish it.

In those cases, all we can do is get ourselves a prosthetic limb and learn how

to use it to the best of our ability.

>

> There are some wounds that can't heal; limbs torn off can't be regrown, BUT we

can endure, do the best we can and have as good, positive and fulfilling a life

as we possibly can *in spite of* our injury.

>

> If emotional abuse were as *visible* as physical abuse, the children of the

personality-disordered wouldn't have to endure much of it: they'd be rescued by

appalled relatives /neighbors /mandated reporters /strangers pretty early in

life.

>

> So yes, I believe in the power of positive thinking and in striving to achieve

to the best of our abilities, but I also believe that some injuries and damage

are so very avoidable and to inflict them on helpless children is simply

unconscionable.

>

> Severely mentally ill, personality-disordered people should not be raising

children, because it is virtually guaranteed that the children will receive

severe, even crippling emotional, physical, sexual and/or spiritual damage.

>

> Its like giving a weanling puppy to a 2-year-old to care for alone and

unsupervised. Its like giving a mouse to a cat to nurture and then walking

away, expecting to return and find the mouse alive and well.

>

> BPD is referred to by NIMH and the Mayo Clinic as " a severe mental illness "

and yet children are left in the (sometimes) sole care of mothers with bpd; I

can't wrap my mind around how shockingly unconscionable that is! It needs to be

stopped!

>

> -Annie

>

>

[Guest guest]

Correction...I meant to say we should *not* have to super resilient just to get

to live a normal life. At least in a fair and just world...

> >

> > My position on this is: the damage that severely bad emotional abuse does to

children is deadly serious. It actually alters the child's DNA expression which

creates a negative physical as well as a negative emotional impact, possibly for

life.

> >

> > That is why it is so very important to get the word out about how SERIOUS

emotional abuse is: it can do real, measurable, permanent damage to a growing

child's psyche, just as bad as physical abuse and sexual abuse violates and

damages their bodies.

> >

> > There is emotional abuse that is like... a bruise: we can usually heal from

this on our own.

> >

> > There is emotional abuse that is like a deep cut: we can't heal from this on

our own, we need help to stop the bleeding. The wound needs to be cleaned and

stitched up in order for it to heal properly, and maybe an antibiotic if it

becomes infected. A scar on the healed cut reminds us that it happened.

> >

> > And there is emotional abuse that is like a mangled, amputated limb. The

crushing and mangling is so severe that the limb can't be reattached, and it is

simply not possible to grow the arm or leg back no matter how hard we wish it.

In those cases, all we can do is get ourselves a prosthetic limb and learn how

to use it to the best of our ability.

> >

> > There are some wounds that can't heal; limbs torn off can't be regrown, BUT

we can endure, do the best we can and have as good, positive and fulfilling a

life as we possibly can *in spite of* our injury.

> >

> > If emotional abuse were as *visible* as physical abuse, the children of the

personality-disordered wouldn't have to endure much of it: they'd be rescued by

appalled relatives /neighbors /mandated reporters /strangers pretty early in

life.

> >

> > So yes, I believe in the power of positive thinking and in striving to

achieve to the best of our abilities, but I also believe that some injuries and

damage are so very avoidable and to inflict them on helpless children is simply

unconscionable.

> >

> > Severely mentally ill, personality-disordered people should not be raising

children, because it is virtually guaranteed that the children will receive

severe, even crippling emotional, physical, sexual and/or spiritual damage.

> >

> > Its like giving a weanling puppy to a 2-year-old to care for alone and

unsupervised. Its like giving a mouse to a cat to nurture and then walking

away, expecting to return and find the mouse alive and well.

> >

> > BPD is referred to by NIMH and the Mayo Clinic as " a severe mental illness "

and yet children are left in the (sometimes) sole care of mothers with bpd; I

can't wrap my mind around how shockingly unconscionable that is! It needs to be

stopped!

> >

> > -Annie

> >

> >

>