Siblings/ control / emotional incest

[Guest guest]

I really, really hate it when my brother calls me. And he just called me.

I feel such a loss of control. I feel like I lose my 'no.' Whenever I see his #

on my caller ID, I ignore it. Today, I decided to try to give it another shot.

But, as usual, as soon as he hears my voice, he's like a horse taking off at a

race. there is no 'do you have a minute?' (and I'm at work!) He asks, just for

the sake of asking, how i am, but doesn't really want to talk about that.

i feel bad saying these things because i do love him and worry about him but I

just have had to distance myself from him because he is so much like my mother

but in a much less proprietary manner.

I feel suffocated around him. He'll take shots--and in this way he is much like

my mother--like " well, **I** don't mind talking to my family. **I** don't avoid

them. " When I know that he DOES avoid them just as I do b/c my mother complains

about him doing it. Or, " **I** like talking to people. "

I do avoid him and most of my family in the area we live in. I don't feel safe

with them. I feel scrutinized and appraised and criticized. But if the tables

get turned at any point, and THEY get the criticism, forget it.

He loves to make little digs about my husband and I just ignore them and then

freeze him out of my life even more than usual. It really hurts when he does

that and I'm dying to say something mean like, " well, at least I have somebody.

You've never had a real relationship with ANYone in your life. Ever. " But I

know i would regret it. I regret even thinking it.

Our conversations are not REAL. They're not even conversations. They're him

talking as though he were talking to a pillow. He barely lets me get a word in,

he talks fast and furious. Like my mother, it's verbal diarrhea with him, and

I'm the toilet. They just want to get every last bit out, with the same urgency

of physical diarrhea, and won't let me interrupt until it's all out of their

system. Sigh.

And sheesh, when he gets philosophical...it's so pompous; it's a mix of

Confucius and Barney Fife. " You know, in life, you can't let yourself become

like the people you don't respect. You have to....blah blah blah blah blah. " I

sooo want to silently hang the phone up and let him go on.

And of course, as soon as I say, " well, I gotta go..., " he'll say, " Oh sorry!

yeah, go! WAIT one more thing.... " and then THAT takes 2 or 3 more minutes.

I feel bad for him, b/c I see the fleas he has from my mother; or maybe he's got

some PD himself. He refuses to see a therapist. He did go one time to one and

just didn't like the experience and didn't want to see about finding a therapist

he liked. So that was that.

But I feel the impulse to swoop in and save him and cajole him and urge him to

get help. But I'm just tired of doing that for my family. I've been doing that

for him all his life. When he refused to go to college, I pleaded with him to

reconsider. Then I supported his decision not to go. When he moved into a nasty

furnished room, I was there for him, visiting as much as I could with food and

feeling guilty that he had so little and I had much more. Even though that was

his stupid choice. I've had enough of it.

For Christmas, I asked him what he wanted and he said, " the best present I could

get is to spend time with you. " Which is very sweet, but as soon as he said it,

my chest constricted at that feeling of being trapped with him. Because being

with him in person is somewhat like the phone experience. I'm trying to be more

honest with him but even when I'm with him in person, I can't get away fast

enough.

For Valentine's Day, he sent me an MP3 of a song called " I'll See You in My

Dreams. " He and I are big Beatles fans and my favorite Beatle was (today

would've been his birthday; happy birthday, !!) so he sent me the MP3 of a

song. I don't know if I'm reading into it, but it felt kind of creepy

getting it from him. I have always, from late adolescence to now, felt a weird

undercurrent of emotional incest with my brother, so I think that's why the song

bugs me so much. Here are the lyrics:

" I'll see you in my dreams

And I'll hold you in my dreams

Someone took you right out of my arms

Still I feel the thrill of your charms

Lips that once were mine

Tender eyes that shine

They will light my way tonight

I'll see you in my dreams

Oh, someone took you right out of my arms

Still I feel the thrill of your charms

Lips that once were mine

Tender eyes that shine

They will light my way tonight

I'll see you in my dreams

I want to be closer to him but it feels like, with him, the only " close " is one

that excludes my husband (as it TOTALLY is for my mother) and that excludes any

real expression/honesty on my part.

Thanks for listening; this was quite lengthy!,

Fiona

[Guest guest]

Fiona,

I'm heading out the door right this minute, so forgive the bluntness of this

question. What positive thing are you getting out of this relationship with your

brother? Because the only things I hear you getting out of it are shame, some

creepiness that makes you very uncomfortable, emotional pain, and it all comes

up short. I just want to put this out there: perhaps your brother is not capable

of giving you what you need in a brother, and maybe you just need to allow

yourself to grieve that loss and go from there.

My brother and SIL treated me in a very similar manner and held visitation with

my nephews over my head as a way to get away with it. Finally I put my foot down

and went NC. If I can't see my nephews, that's their fault. Hopefully one day my

nephews will ask to see me because they will remember all the time we spent

together. But I couldn't sacrifice myself and my integrity to have a

relationship with the kids.

[Guest guest]

What I keyed in on is that when you hear your brother's voice, you become

" frozen " , in a way; you said, " I lose my " no. " "

My interpretation is that that is either a fear reaction or a (misplaced) guilt

reaction, or possibly both. Your " fight, flight or freeze " reaction is

triggered by your brother.

One possible explanation: (and remember I'm just speculating. I am not a

psychologist and this is just me thinking out loud. This may not resonate with

you at all.) If you had harsh - punitive - abusive, or distant - emotionally

cold - unloving parents when you were children, then perhaps you and your

brother did turn to each other as the only source of affection possible in your

foo... but *you* were able to grow up, become emotionally mature, and find a

good man to fall in love with. But for whatever reason, your brother was

unable to move past that childhood-level relationship with you and become

emotionally mature. He's still stuck back there, in the past, seeing you as his

only source of affection. Perhaps you feel guilty for having grown up and

having left him behind, and hearing his voice slams you back into feelings of

(entirely misplaced) guilt over your brother's immature emotional neediness?

Perhaps if you get someone (your therapist?) to do some role-playing with you?

Let your therpist play the role of your brother and " phone " you and talk to you

the way your brother does so you can practice getting your " NO " back. Not in a

harsh or mean way, just so you can become more assertive, so you can stay in

grown-up-you mode.

You can practice *talking over him* and say something like, " I'm so sorry,

Brother, but I can't talk to you now because I'm at work. I'll call you back on

xyz date. " and: " Well, you know, it was nice talking with you Brother, but I

have to go now. I'm going to hang up now, OK? Gotta go. Love you. 'bye. "

I discovered that when you're trapped with someone who does that verbal diarrhea

thing and never lets you get a word in edgewise, then they leave you no option

but to talk over them / interrupt them.

If you are willing to just talk over such a person, you can get your " no " back.

But if you are very inhibited about doing that, then, my suggestion is that you

can do it if you practice with someone else first, as a kind of exercise.

Practice it, and see if that helps.

I also suggest that you perhaps feel responsible for your brother's feelings,

which is a co-dependency thing. Maybe read a self-help book about overcoming

co-dependency. YOur brother is responsible for his own happiness or lack of it,

not you.

Again, these are just my personal and amateur speculations, to take or leave as

you choose, but I hope at least some of it helps.

-Annie

>

> I really, really hate it when my brother calls me. And he just called me.

>

> I feel such a loss of control. I feel like I lose my 'no.' Whenever I see his

# on my caller ID, I ignore it. Today, I decided to try to give it another

shot. But, as usual, as soon as he hears my voice, he's like a horse taking off

at a race. there is no 'do you have a minute?' (and I'm at work!) He asks, just

for the sake of asking, how i am, but doesn't really want to talk about that.

>

> i feel bad saying these things because i do love him and worry about him but I

just have had to distance myself from him because he is so much like my mother

but in a much less proprietary manner.

>

> I feel suffocated around him. He'll take shots--and in this way he is much

like my mother--like " well, **I** don't mind talking to my family. **I** don't

avoid them. " When I know that he DOES avoid them just as I do b/c my mother

complains about him doing it. Or, " **I** like talking to people. "

>

> I do avoid him and most of my family in the area we live in. I don't feel safe

with them. I feel scrutinized and appraised and criticized. But if the tables

get turned at any point, and THEY get the criticism, forget it.

>

> He loves to make little digs about my husband and I just ignore them and then

freeze him out of my life even more than usual. It really hurts when he does

that and I'm dying to say something mean like, " well, at least I have somebody.

You've never had a real relationship with ANYone in your life. Ever. " But I

know i would regret it. I regret even thinking it.

>

> Our conversations are not REAL. They're not even conversations. They're him

talking as though he were talking to a pillow. He barely lets me get a word in,

he talks fast and furious. Like my mother, it's verbal diarrhea with him, and

I'm the toilet. They just want to get every last bit out, with the same urgency

of physical diarrhea, and won't let me interrupt until it's all out of their

system. Sigh.

>

> And sheesh, when he gets philosophical...it's so pompous; it's a mix of

Confucius and Barney Fife. " You know, in life, you can't let yourself become

like the people you don't respect. You have to....blah blah blah blah blah. " I

sooo want to silently hang the phone up and let him go on.

>

> And of course, as soon as I say, " well, I gotta go..., " he'll say, " Oh sorry!

yeah, go! WAIT one more thing.... " and then THAT takes 2 or 3 more minutes.

>

> I feel bad for him, b/c I see the fleas he has from my mother; or maybe he's

got some PD himself. He refuses to see a therapist. He did go one time to one

and just didn't like the experience and didn't want to see about finding a

therapist he liked. So that was that.

>

> But I feel the impulse to swoop in and save him and cajole him and urge him to

get help. But I'm just tired of doing that for my family. I've been doing that

for him all his life. When he refused to go to college, I pleaded with him to

reconsider. Then I supported his decision not to go. When he moved into a nasty

furnished room, I was there for him, visiting as much as I could with food and

feeling guilty that he had so little and I had much more. Even though that was

his stupid choice. I've had enough of it.

>

> For Christmas, I asked him what he wanted and he said, " the best present I

could get is to spend time with you. " Which is very sweet, but as soon as he

said it, my chest constricted at that feeling of being trapped with him. Because

being with him in person is somewhat like the phone experience. I'm trying to be

more honest with him but even when I'm with him in person, I can't get away fast

enough.

>

> For Valentine's Day, he sent me an MP3 of a song called " I'll See You in My

Dreams. " He and I are big Beatles fans and my favorite Beatle was (today

would've been his birthday; happy birthday, !!) so he sent me the MP3 of a

song. I don't know if I'm reading into it, but it felt kind of creepy

getting it from him. I have always, from late adolescence to now, felt a weird

undercurrent of emotional incest with my brother, so I think that's why the song

bugs me so much. Here are the lyrics:

> " I'll see you in my dreams

> And I'll hold you in my dreams

> Someone took you right out of my arms

> Still I feel the thrill of your charms

>

> Lips that once were mine

> Tender eyes that shine

> They will light my way tonight

> I'll see you in my dreams

>

> Oh, someone took you right out of my arms

> Still I feel the thrill of your charms

>

> Lips that once were mine

> Tender eyes that shine

> They will light my way tonight

> I'll see you in my dreams

>

> I want to be closer to him but it feels like, with him, the only " close " is

one that excludes my husband (as it TOTALLY is for my mother) and that excludes

any real expression/honesty on my part.

>

> Thanks for listening; this was quite lengthy!,

>

> Fiona

>

[Guest guest]

Annie's advice is so much better than mine. Your thoughts, Annie, were

eye-opening to me and my relationship with my brother, in a different way, but

very interesting to think about.

[Guest guest]

That's a really good question, , and one I have never thought about.

I can't really think of anything I'm getting from my relationship with him,

which says a lot. When we do spend time together, it's good but then he finds a

way to guilt me about something. I don't feel like I get anything from it, at

least not right now. It's all obligation. Thank you for your insight. It helps

so much to get someone else's perspective.

Annie - whoa. It's like you know us. See below in ALL CAPS.

[ " If you had harsh - punitive - abusive, or distant - emotionally cold -

unloving parents when you were children**WE DID**, then perhaps you and your

brother did turn to each other as the only source of affection possible in your

foo... **THAT'S HOW IT WAS** but *you* were able to grow up, become emotionally

mature, and find a good man to fall in love with. But for whatever reason, your

brother was unable to move past that childhood-level relationship with you and

become emotionally mature. **YES!!! THAT DESCRIBES HIM PERFECTLY*** He's still

stuck back there, in the past, seeing you as his only source of affection.

***EXACTLY!!!!! HE HAS NEVER HAD A GIRLFRIEND, WIFE OR LONG TERM RELATIONSHIP***

Perhaps you feel guilty for having grown up and having left him behind, and

hearing his voice slams you back into feelings of (entirely misplaced) guilt

over your brother's immature emotional neediness? ***YES, YES YES*** I'M

PRINTING THIS OUT AND SHOWING MY T. I DO FEEL ALMOST RESPONSIBLE FOR HIM AND

AVOID HIM, I THINK, TO AVOID THE GUILT.

When I have talked over him, he gets mean and whiny and although I've reached

the point of tolerating the discomfort of doing it with my mother, it's harder

with him, for some reason. I think you really nailed it. He and I definitely had

more of a Us vs. Them relationship and when I got married, it's like I defected.

When my wedding reception was over, everyone was leaving. My brother came with

my parents. He turned to me and said, " Ready? " In other words, he wanted me to

go home with him and our parents. Holy crap.

This has layers to it that I know I don't want to deal with at some level.

Thanks so much for your feedback. It's such a help.

Fiona

>

> Fiona,

>

> I'm heading out the door right this minute, so forgive the bluntness of this

question. What positive thing are you getting out of this relationship with your

brother? Because the only things I hear you getting out of it are shame, some

creepiness that makes you very uncomfortable, emotional pain, and it all comes

up short. I just want to put this out there: perhaps your brother is not capable

of giving you what you need in a brother, and maybe you just need to allow

yourself to grieve that loss and go from there.

>

> My brother and SIL treated me in a very similar manner and held visitation

with my nephews over my head as a way to get away with it. Finally I put my foot

down and went NC. If I can't see my nephews, that's their fault. Hopefully one

day my nephews will ask to see me because they will remember all the time we

spent together. But I couldn't sacrifice myself and my integrity to have a

relationship with the kids.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Fiona,

Several comments for you, interspersed below with some of your post.

> I feel such a loss of control. I feel like I lose my 'no.' Whenever I

see his # on my caller ID, I ignore it. Today, I decided to try to give

it another shot. But, as usual, as soon as he hears my voice, he's like

a horse taking off at a race. there is no 'do you have a minute?' (and

I'm at work!) He asks, just for the sake of asking, how i am, but

doesn't really want to talk about that.

Trust your instinct. If you can t say no, then you are being

manipulated. People who manipulate you are not entitled to access to

you so they can perfect their art. My nada would talk incessantly

about her journey through the pits of hell, and no words of mine ever

made a dent in the converstation. So you don t have the conversation.

>

> i feel bad saying these things because i do love him and worry about

him but I just have had to distance myself from him because he is so

much like my mother but in a much less proprietary manner.

I feel bad saying XYZ about my BP family member because I love them.

Such a KO thought. Loving someone does not preclude saying the truth

about them or how they affect us, because that is disloyal. Just ask

them, they ll tell us so. This is FOG at work in a major way.

> I feel suffocated around him. He'll take shots--and in this way he is

much like my mother--like " well, **I** don't mind talking to my family.

**I** don't avoid them. " When I know that he DOES avoid them just as I

do b/c my mother complains about him doing it. Or, " **I** like talking

to people. "

BP s gaslight about their behaviours. They justify themselves while

condemning you for the same things. You are right. These are cheap

shots. If you choose to listen to him at all, you ought to confront

those hard and instantly. Well, IIIIII dont mind talking to my family.

and you say, Don t do that. It is not up to you how or when I talk to

my family, that is my choice. I m not going to listen to you

criticizing me for that.

don't feel safe with them. I feel scrutinized and appraised and

criticized. But if the tables get turned at any point, and THEY get the

criticism, forget it.

You never have to put up with someone who makes you feel unsafe. You

can establish boundaries with them and if they want you in their lives

they can respect them. But if they don t , be prepared to cut them out

for your safety.

>

> He loves to make little digs about my husband and I just ignore them

NO NO NO NO NO! That is what we are trained to do as KOs. We just

ignore the most outrageous behavior or speech. Don t you do it girl.

Go to the spine store, and get a size small to start out with. The

next time he makes a ' little dig about your husband " you need to do 2

things.

First, tell yourself this is NOT a small thing. He is assaulting the

most important relationship in your life, without regard to how it hurts

you.

Second, tell him sharply, loudly, publicly, and in no nonsense terms ;

" That is my HUSBAND you are talking about, and I ll thank you to keep

your damned mouth shut about him in the future. "

He ll get pissed, but you just MAY get a moment of shocked silence. And

he will get the message.

and then freeze him out of my life even more than usual. It really

hurts when he does that and I'm dying to say something mean like, " well,

at least I have somebody. You've never had a real relationship with

ANYone in your life. Ever. " But I know i would regret it. I regret even

thinking it.

No , that is vindictive and mean, and just because you are hurt and want

to hurt him back. What I suggested above defends your relationships,

makes it clear they are important to you, and leaves his problems with

him. Don t let him pull you to his game.

>

> Our conversations are not REAL. They're not even conversations.

They're him talking as though he were talking to a pillow. He barely

lets me get a word in, he talks fast and furious. Like my mother, it's

verbal diarrhea with him, and I'm the toilet. They just want to get

every last bit out, with the same urgency of physical diarrhea, and

won't let me interrupt until it's all out of their system. Sigh.>

> And sheesh, when he gets philosophical...it's so pompous; it's a mix

of Confucius and Barney Fife. " You know, in life, you can't let yourself

become like the people you don't respect. You have to....blah blah blah

blah blah. " I sooo want to silently hang the phone up and let him go

on.>

> And of course, as soon as I say, " well, I gotta go..., " he'll say, " Oh

sorry! yeah, go! WAIT one more thing.... " and then THAT takes 2 or 3

more minutes.

To all of that I shudder and say, Geez! That was phone calls with my

mom, exactly. I can try to share with her about my life, but it is as

if I never spoke. I was just supposed to agree and sympathize with her.

She could be so self righteous it made me want to puke. I used to lay

the phone down and go drink a cup of coffee and go to the bathroom. She

d never know I was gone.

And it infuriated me when she did the Wait just one more thing deal. I

reached the point that I would say, over top of her, I have to go now, I

m hanging up, goodbye. And hang up. What she, and your brother did to

us by ignoring us, was sheer rudeness, and discounting our worth.

>

> I feel bad for him, b/c I see the fleas he has from my mother; or

maybe he's got some PD himself. He refuses to see a therapist. He did go

one time to one and just didn't like the experience and didn't want to

see about finding a therapist he liked. So that was that.

Whether he is PD, ( Ithink so) , or just eat up with fleas, if he

refuses to get help, you are not obligated to put up with it. It is

your life. Own it.

>

> But I feel the impulse to swoop in and save him and cajole him and

urge him to get help. But I'm just tired of doing that for my family.

I've been doing that for him all his life. When he refused to go to

college, I pleaded with him to reconsider. Then I supported his decision

not to go. When he moved into a nasty furnished room, I was there for

him, visiting as much as I could with food and feeling guilty that he

had so little and I had much more. Even though that was his stupid

choice. I've had enough of it.\

Little mother of all living things. You can t save everyone else.

Start with yourself.

> For Christmas, I asked him what he wanted and he said, " the best

present I could get is to spend time with you. " Which is very sweet, but

as soon as he said it, my chest constricted at that feeling of being

trapped with him. Because being with him in person is somewhat like the

phone experience. I'm trying to be more honest with him but even when

I'm with him in person, I can't get away fast enough.

I could never have normal emotions and love with mom, because for her it

was like being taken prisoner. They do that to you. But you have to be

safe.

>

> For Valentine's Day, he sent me an MP3 of a song called " I'll See You

in My Dreams. " He and I are big Beatles fans and my favorite Beatle was

(today would've been his birthday; happy birthday, !!) so

he sent me the MP3 of a song. I don't know if I'm reading into

it, but it felt kind of creepy getting it from him. I have always, from

late adolescence to now, felt a weird undercurrent of emotional incest

with my brother

Emotional incest is a strong undercurrent with BP s. Again, trust your

gut. Mom did they same thing to me, and parenthetically, to others I

knew.

> I want to be closer to him but it feels like, with him, the only

" close " is one that excludes my husband (as it TOTALLY is for my mother)

and that excludes any real expression/honesty on my part.

He won t permit a safe relationship. It is unhealthy.

>

> Thanks for listening; this was quite lengthy!, You re welcome, Fi.

Doug

>

> Fiona

>