Thinking aloud re: relationships

[Guest guest]

So this post will probably be a little windy, but I think I have a point

somewhere. I'm not so much looking for advice as wondering if anyone else has

experienced this and if it's a result of growing up as a KO or if it's just a

result of growing up. Sometimes I don't know the difference because I am a KO,

and you all know how sometimes we don't realize something is abnormal or not

right. So...

This post is prompted by the fact that I've started seeing someone. I really

like him, and I'm trying to maintain my independence and autonomy and identity,

because I always lose those when I start a relationship. HOwever, even though

it's very new, it feels like probably the first healthy relationship I've ever

had. So here's my M.O. with relationships, and frankly this M.O. doesn't match

my personality at all.

I have noticed that when I enter into a relationship with a man (this does not

happen with friends) I quickly lose my sense of fulfilling my own needs, and in

that past, have felt like I have no identity. I begin to do everything to serve

their needs, do what they want, spend all my time with them, even CLING to them,

and become, for lack of a different term, co-dependent. This behavior is

completely contrary to who I am as a person: I am VERY independent, I absolutely

need time to myself, I like doing things by myself--I'm not afraid or

uncomfortable spending time by myself, and I'm very opinionated. And yet, I lose

myself completely and very quickly once the relationship becomes established.

And then I feel like the boyfriend is walking all over me and using me, because

I'm always fulfilling their needs and never mine. Sometimes I even know that I'm

in a destructive relationship or that this man I'm with is not who I want to be

with--for lack of a better word, he's a loser. Yes, it's a judgmental term, but

I think it evokes the kind of man I am talking about easily for everyone. Or

he's just a complete asshole and a user who doesn't care about me. And this

person will do things that hurt me, but I'll go back for more. If I told my

friends and family about how these relationships go, and actually gave them

details, I know they would be so surprised that I would ever be with men like

this. ly I am surprised that I ever have been too. And I know, during the

relationship, that I deserve better, that I am better than this, and yet I can't

break it off. So usually I end up getting dumped or left or whatever, and then I

feel like crap because I just got dumped by a loser. And allowing myself to be

treated like that is really so not characteristic of me, but it's a pattern, so

maybe it is.

So I wonder if how I approach relationships is a result of being a KO. I can see

how growing up with a nada, I served her needs exclusively and not my own, and

that this might not come into play until I get close to someone. So it's not

evident until I get into a relationship. I also watched both of my parents

continue to drudge through a marriage in which neither had enough self-respect

to leave a relationship that was painful and destructive to them both. I watched

them both cling on and be miserable for basically my entire life (At that point

22 years old was when they divorced and had been married for over 30). So did I

learn that it's better to be with someone who treats you like crap than to be

alone? I mean, these are clearly things that are wrapped up in my subconscious

because if we had a discussion about these things, I would scream NO.

I am a successful, attractive, athletic, fun, passionate, intelligent person,

and yet I end up dating losers without jobs who are drug addicts and desert me

on my birthday then show up 6 months later expecting me to not be mad. What is

wrong with me that I would even consider being with these men? I am an extremely

talented artist, but somehow I got into a very serious relationship with a man

who thought he was going to make it as an actor and yet he was not very talented

and not proactive at all in making that career happen. In my opinion he was

totally delusional about his life, yet I can actually remember hoping he would

ask me to marry him. That is just F****** crazy!

I have definitely gained a lot of perspective from being in therapy, and I have

made a list of red flags regarding relationships and if those show up, I have to

seriously consider if what I'm doing is healthy, and PUT ME FIRST. And with this

new relationship, everything has gone very well, and it's even been a little

funny to me, because I keep going, " oh, THAT'S how it's supposed to be. " He's

very attentive, but not smothering, respectful, sweet, and he says nice things

to me, I mean compliments, which I don't think I recall ever really happening

before...

Okay, I think I've gone on long enough. Curious to hear if anyone else has

experienced things like this, or if this is a whole separate issue for me to

deal with at T.

[Guest guest]

>

> I have definitely gained a lot of perspective from being in therapy, and I

have made a list of red flags regarding relationships and if those show up, I

have to seriously consider if what I'm doing is healthy, and PUT ME FIRST. And

with this new relationship, everything has gone very well, and it's even been a

little funny to me, because I keep going, " oh, THAT'S how it's supposed to be. "

He's very attentive, but not smothering, respectful, sweet, and he says nice

things to me, I mean compliments, which I don't think I recall ever really

happening before...

>

,

I remember how surprised I was to be treated with respect by a date for the

first time. We have been married for 30 years!

I have no words of wisdom to offer, but I wish you well.

Lil

[Guest guest]

Don t even need to read the whole post. I got it in the first couple

paragraphs.

Not at all uncommon.

Suggested reading:

Co dependant No More

How People Grow

The DNA of Relationships

In any order you wish. I think theyh might all help.

And DUH!? Yea, how you enter relationships is related to being a KO.

Of course, dear. How could it NOT affect you.

Doug

[Guest guest]

I just hate thinking that I am co-dependent, because I am so independent. It's

just the minute I enter a romantic relationship, I lose that independence. And I

hate it.

>

>

> Don t even need to read the whole post. I got it in the first couple

> paragraphs.

>

> Not at all uncommon.

>

> Suggested reading:

>

> Co dependant No More

>

> How People Grow

>

> The DNA of Relationships

>

> In any order you wish. I think theyh might all help.

>

>

>

> And DUH!? Yea, how you enter relationships is related to being a KO.

> Of course, dear. How could it NOT affect you.

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

I also want to say that I don't live from relationship to relationship, I don't

have to be with someone. I've been without a significant other for almost two

years. I like being single, I'm not looking for anyone to be attached to or be

with, and this man I'm seeing (and we've only been out twice) came about rather

unexpectedly. I function best and feel most like myself when I am single.

Although I can definitely say that what has transpired so far with this man has

been different than in the past.

> >

> >

> > Don t even need to read the whole post. I got it in the first couple

> > paragraphs.

> >

> > Not at all uncommon.

> >

> > Suggested reading:

> >

> > Co dependant No More

> >

> > How People Grow

> >

> > The DNA of Relationships

> >

> > In any order you wish. I think theyh might all help.

> >

> >

> >

> > And DUH!? Yea, how you enter relationships is related to being a KO.

> > Of course, dear. How could it NOT affect you.

> >

> > Doug

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Doug,

I just have to laugh and tell you, when I first read your comment I was sort of

perturbed, because I'M NOT CO-DEPENDENT. But after thinking on it for a few

hours, I googled the definition, and then groaned. I'm sure there are levels of

co-dependency or something like that, and I can honestly say I'm not behaving

that way now in this relationship, but definitely have in the past. I'm glad I

finally asked this question. It's been gnawing at me ever since this guy asked

me out, because I did not want to fall into that old behavior, but I did think

it would be nice to spend time with someone. Wondering if I should bring up this

with T.

Thanks,

>

>

> Don t even need to read the whole post. I got it in the first couple

> paragraphs.

>

> Not at all uncommon.

>

> Suggested reading:

>

> Co dependant No More

>

> How People Grow

>

> The DNA of Relationships

>

> In any order you wish. I think theyh might all help.

>

>

>

> And DUH!? Yea, how you enter relationships is related to being a KO.

> Of course, dear. How could it NOT affect you.

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

Awww Hugs , too cute. i was just posting about finding the right words

- and sometimes they hurt - so that you can work on your issues. You don't

know what to read about or research without the right words. My new words

are " child abuse, " " child maltreatment, " and " emotional abuse. " Amazing how

much info there is out there under those headings that perfectly describes

me. Your new one is codependent. Look at it this way - you were GROOMED to

be codependent. It's not really your fault. The only thing that could be

your fault is if you accept it. Now that you have the info, you can fight

it.

With love, from a fellow co-dependent.

And yes, do talk to your T about it.

HUGS HUGS HUGS, Girlscout

>

>

> Hi Doug,

>

> I just have to laugh and tell you, when I first read your comment I was

> sort of perturbed, because I'M NOT CO-DEPENDENT. But after thinking on it

> for a few hours, I googled the definition, and then groaned. I'm sure there

> are levels of co-dependency or something like that, and I can honestly say

> I'm not behaving that way now in this relationship, but definitely have in

> the past. I'm glad I finally asked this question. It's been gnawing at me

> ever since this guy asked me out, because I did not want to fall into that

> old behavior, but I did think it would be nice to spend time with someone.

> Wondering if I should bring up this with T.

>

> Thanks,

>

>

>

>

> >

> >

> > Don t even need to read the whole post. I got it in the first couple

> > paragraphs.

> >

> > Not at all uncommon.

> >

> > Suggested reading:

> >

> > Co dependant No More

> >

> > How People Grow

> >

> > The DNA of Relationships

> >

> > In any order you wish. I think theyh might all help.

> >

> >

> >

> > And DUH!? Yea, how you enter relationships is related to being a KO.

> > Of course, dear. How could it NOT affect you.

> >

> > Doug

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I can relate to that " type " of relationship issue. Maybe this little story will

encourage you:

I had been " engaged " to guy, who, like your men, used and left me...hanging. The

kicker was, he dumped me while I was in the middle of a very large country that

I was circumnavigating in a jeep and tent. My folks begged me to hook up with

his best friend who we had just caught up with but was overseas at the time. He

was due back in a week and they would feel that I would be safe and because he

was a " local " (of the country) and a guy. They suggested that I just travel with

him for a certain distance to see how it worked out and so I did. We travelled

together but slept in seaparate tents, totally plutonic. I had no attraction

for him and was still in love with the " loser " . This guy and I ended up

travelling the rest of the way around the country and he got to see all my

" sides " , because I could really just be me. Some of the sides were pretty

angry, too. But he perservered in friendship. So I tolerated him for the trip

- and he tolerated me. We stayed friends once I got back to the States for over

7 years, during which we both treated each other as confidents and really got to

know each other. I had nothing to lose, and neither did he. He was completely

different to any guy I had ever known before and it scared the pants off me. I

eventually went back to his home country, we decided to try and date, kissed him

for the first time, fireworks went off (the " where have you been all my life? "

moment), and 2 years later we were married. We've been married now - very

happily and comfortably - for over 13 years!

I found out from him before we got married that he did have feelings for me all

those years ago, knew that I was quite an " angry person " (as you can probably

relate to the feeling of being used over and over again), and just was also able

to 'be himself' because of that.

So moral of the story....the first guy that you're not attracted to and become

friends with, will become your husband!

Being comfortable enough to be yourself around someone who accepts all of you,

is indeed a winner!

xx, Mexie

>

> So this post will probably be a little windy, but I think I have a point

somewhere. I'm not so much looking for advice as wondering if anyone else has

experienced this and if it's a result of growing up as a KO or if it's just a

result of growing up. Sometimes I don't know the difference because I am a KO,

and you all know how sometimes we don't realize something is abnormal or not

right. So...

>

> This post is prompted by the fact that I've started seeing someone. I really

like him, and I'm trying to maintain my independence and autonomy and identity,

because I always lose those when I start a relationship. HOwever, even though

it's very new, it feels like probably the first healthy relationship I've ever

had. So here's my M.O. with relationships, and frankly this M.O. doesn't match

my personality at all.

>

> I have noticed that when I enter into a relationship with a man (this does not

happen with friends) I quickly lose my sense of fulfilling my own needs, and in

that past, have felt like I have no identity. I begin to do everything to serve

their needs, do what they want, spend all my time with them, even CLING to them,

and become, for lack of a different term, co-dependent. This behavior is

completely contrary to who I am as a person: I am VERY independent, I absolutely

need time to myself, I like doing things by myself--I'm not afraid or

uncomfortable spending time by myself, and I'm very opinionated. And yet, I lose

myself completely and very quickly once the relationship becomes established.

And then I feel like the boyfriend is walking all over me and using me, because

I'm always fulfilling their needs and never mine. Sometimes I even know that I'm

in a destructive relationship or that this man I'm with is not who I want to be

with--for lack of a better word, he's a loser. Yes, it's a judgmental term, but

I think it evokes the kind of man I am talking about easily for everyone. Or

he's just a complete asshole and a user who doesn't care about me. And this

person will do things that hurt me, but I'll go back for more. If I told my

friends and family about how these relationships go, and actually gave them

details, I know they would be so surprised that I would ever be with men like

this. ly I am surprised that I ever have been too. And I know, during the

relationship, that I deserve better, that I am better than this, and yet I can't

break it off. So usually I end up getting dumped or left or whatever, and then I

feel like crap because I just got dumped by a loser. And allowing myself to be

treated like that is really so not characteristic of me, but it's a pattern, so

maybe it is.

>

> So I wonder if how I approach relationships is a result of being a KO. I can

see how growing up with a nada, I served her needs exclusively and not my own,

and that this might not come into play until I get close to someone. So it's not

evident until I get into a relationship. I also watched both of my parents

continue to drudge through a marriage in which neither had enough self-respect

to leave a relationship that was painful and destructive to them both. I watched

them both cling on and be miserable for basically my entire life (At that point

22 years old was when they divorced and had been married for over 30). So did I

learn that it's better to be with someone who treats you like crap than to be

alone? I mean, these are clearly things that are wrapped up in my subconscious

because if we had a discussion about these things, I would scream NO.

>

> I am a successful, attractive, athletic, fun, passionate, intelligent person,

and yet I end up dating losers without jobs who are drug addicts and desert me

on my birthday then show up 6 months later expecting me to not be mad. What is

wrong with me that I would even consider being with these men? I am an extremely

talented artist, but somehow I got into a very serious relationship with a man

who thought he was going to make it as an actor and yet he was not very talented

and not proactive at all in making that career happen. In my opinion he was

totally delusional about his life, yet I can actually remember hoping he would

ask me to marry him. That is just F****** crazy!

>

> I have definitely gained a lot of perspective from being in therapy, and I

have made a list of red flags regarding relationships and if those show up, I

have to seriously consider if what I'm doing is healthy, and PUT ME FIRST. And

with this new relationship, everything has gone very well, and it's even been a

little funny to me, because I keep going, " oh, THAT'S how it's supposed to be. "

He's very attentive, but not smothering, respectful, sweet, and he says nice

things to me, I mean compliments, which I don't think I recall ever really

happening before...

>

> Okay, I think I've gone on long enough. Curious to hear if anyone else has

experienced things like this, or if this is a whole separate issue for me to

deal with at T.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I sure know what you're talking about . I had dated several men in

the past and would very much try to emulate their interests, got clingy,

etc. It always drove me batty because I just did't know how to be myself in

a relationship. I still to some extent have issues with friendships & such

and being myself until I get to a point where I'm comfortable with someone.

It's not that I try to emulate them, I'm just... cautious. But, I decided

I wasn't going to do that anymore when it came to dating and trying to be

into what they were into, etc. It was rough sometimes, but I have to say it

was also very freeing =) By just being me, I do not question if my fiance

loves me. He does! I know it, he proves it to me every day & we chuckle at

the different things the other likes that we don't. We just click, and it's

easy for me to just be myself when I'm with him.

I think it does relate to being a KO. We weren't allowed to be autonomous,

independent people... we had to be what our nadas & fadas wanted. I can

also imagine that on some level we were " told " that no one would love us if

we were ourselves.

Gonna say the cliche thing now: Just be you, ! You're great just the

way you are & you deserve love for being you! =)

Mia

[Guest guest]

Oh Mia and Mexi,

That is what I am learning. I have been totally myself with this guy I'm seeing,

and making us schedule dates around my marathon dating (which rules out Saturday

nights-hah) and we even had a political discussion where we were sort of on

different sides and he still kissed me that night! I do think I need to be

careful not to lose my identity, but over the past two years since the last

loser, I have done a lot of soul searching about how I enter relationships and

have promised myself that I will be cautious about ignoring things that are

important to me just because I want someone to like me or be available to them.

>

> I sure know what you're talking about . I had dated several men in

> the past and would very much try to emulate their interests, got clingy,

> etc. It always drove me batty because I just did't know how to be myself in

> a relationship. I still to some extent have issues with friendships & such

> and being myself until I get to a point where I'm comfortable with someone.

> It's not that I try to emulate them, I'm just... cautious. But, I decided

> I wasn't going to do that anymore when it came to dating and trying to be

> into what they were into, etc. It was rough sometimes, but I have to say it

> was also very freeing =) By just being me, I do not question if my fiance

> loves me. He does! I know it, he proves it to me every day & we chuckle at

> the different things the other likes that we don't. We just click, and it's

> easy for me to just be myself when I'm with him.

>

> I think it does relate to being a KO. We weren't allowed to be autonomous,

> independent people... we had to be what our nadas & fadas wanted. I can

> also imagine that on some level we were " told " that no one would love us if

> we were ourselves.

>

> Gonna say the cliche thing now: Just be you, ! You're great just the

> way you are & you deserve love for being you! =)

>

> Mia

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

I am often attracted to the " wrong man " . I decided that if the man was one

that could sweep me off my feet. If he had a lot of charm. If he was extremely

good looking in my eyes, then I would not date him. I decided that I would not

date anyone that played mind games. I decided i would only date men that had

hobbies and they had to be ones that I liked...because if we got married he

would want to spend money on those things and I knew that money was a huge point

of contention in a relationship. They didn't have to be hobbies that I had but

they had to be hobbies that I respected. I don't care for race car driving but

I like photography for example.

I heard that what ever you like about someone subtract 10 from it and that

will be about how it is after you get married. Whatever really bothers you

about someone, multiply that by 10 and this will be how you will feel about it

after you get married. why? Because you are not trying to " keep " each other

like you were before the marriage. You may even feel stuck or resentful.

I also had to have physical boundaries. Because for me if I give a man a

hand and I decide that is more than I was ready to give him...it is hard to

explain that later. So to keep everything platonic I decided not petting or

kissing. Besides I get all confused and start taking care of the person rather

than me. Why? I think on some level it might be related to some kind of

Narcissistic Need. They make me feel important or significant and I am trying

to get that " feeling " back. By taking care of myself with good boundaries I was

able to move away from needing them for validation and " completeness " .

My husband and I have been married 25 years. My marriage has been the best

thing in my life. Working together, having kids together, being friends,

cooking together, sharing my life with him and he with me. It is the best

thing.

Don't settle for less.

[Guest guest]

Thank you for posting this, .

I am reading all the responses, so I can get my relationship life on track. I

identify with all of the responses. I am loving reading the love stories too.

My dating life has been miserable....dismal. At the moment, I am trying

desperately to break free from a man that I don't believe has my best interests

at heart. I have told him not to contact me anymore and each day is growing

better. I have struggled through this process to let go though.

I want to love in a healthy manner. I want to have a healthy marriage. I want

to raise loved, healthy children. I can't do it as this broken woman I am now.

I have gotten the- go get these co-dependency books in the past from others.

First initial thought- " Who the hell is co-dependent? " Guess what group, " I

AM! " I own it, now I am going to change it. I bought co-dependent no more &

the DNA of relationships (Thanks Doug!) on Sunday. I have been reading

feverishly. I will most likely re-read them in about 6 months or so, so I can

re-introduce the message. I have realized I am co-dependent at work, home..and

it spans the range of areas I am in.

I have done the, with this guy I am going to be different, but without knowing

the difference or what was wrong...the relationship was doomed from the start.

Doomed.

I actually trust you group. Or I wouldn't have let the thought of co-dependency

in. I trust you and your wisdom. Something inside tells me I will have a

healthy relationship sometime in the near future. Until then, I will take care

of myself and learn.

Thank you for this bitter pill to swallow.

Latasha

[Guest guest]

I know exactly how you feel. The funny thing is, these things that I do that

constitute co-dependency: I have always been aware of them and I HATE them. I

fight these co-dependent things, but bc I've grown up a KO, I subconsciously am

afraid not to do them. But I hate them all the same.

I think it's good that at least we are aware of the things we do rather than

being totally oblivious to it. We know that things are off-kilter and should be

different.

>

> Thank you for posting this, .

>

> I am reading all the responses, so I can get my relationship life on track. I

identify with all of the responses. I am loving reading the love stories too.

My dating life has been miserable....dismal. At the moment, I am trying

desperately to break free from a man that I don't believe has my best interests

at heart. I have told him not to contact me anymore and each day is growing

better. I have struggled through this process to let go though.

>

> I want to love in a healthy manner. I want to have a healthy marriage. I

want to raise loved, healthy children. I can't do it as this broken woman I am

now.

>

> I have gotten the- go get these co-dependency books in the past from others.

First initial thought- " Who the hell is co-dependent? " Guess what group, " I

AM! " I own it, now I am going to change it. I bought co-dependent no more &

the DNA of relationships (Thanks Doug!) on Sunday. I have been reading

feverishly. I will most likely re-read them in about 6 months or so, so I can

re-introduce the message. I have realized I am co-dependent at work, home..and

it spans the range of areas I am in.

>

> I have done the, with this guy I am going to be different, but without knowing

the difference or what was wrong...the relationship was doomed from the start.

Doomed.

>

> I actually trust you group. Or I wouldn't have let the thought of

co-dependency in. I trust you and your wisdom. Something inside tells me I

will have a healthy relationship sometime in the near future. Until then, I

will take care of myself and learn.

>

> Thank you for this bitter pill to swallow.

>

> Latasha

>

[Guest guest]

I agree 100% . Like they used to say on the old GI Joe cartoons:

Knowing is half the battle (GI Joe!) (lol sorry couldn't resist).

When we're aware of what's off-kilter, we can start making changes. And

that, I believe, is what separates us from the BPDs. We KNOW when something

is off with us, be it our thoughts, behavior, etc. We can be honest about

it and want to change it. Sadly, most BPDs won't (as I'm sure you know).

Mia

>

>

> I know exactly how you feel. The funny thing is, these things that I do

> that constitute co-dependency: I have always been aware of them and I HATE

> them. I fight these co-dependent things, but bc I've grown up a KO, I

> subconsciously am afraid not to do them. But I hate them all the same.

>

> I think it's good that at least we are aware of the things we do rather

> than being totally oblivious to it. We know that things are off-kilter and

> should be different.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow....Mia took it back to GI Joe!!! Go Joe!!!! :-D

Along with that quote- one of my all time favorites from the Matrix- " Know

Thyself " .

De-nile ain't just a river in Egypt...it has been flowing here in Virginia for a

long time....until Sunday. I am going to build a few dams and re-route it so I

can have a healthy lovelife!

Thanks for that memory, Mia!

Latasha