Re: Siblings/ control / emotional incest - Doug

[Guest guest]

Hey Doug,

thanks for your feedback. see my comments in all caps below.

Fi

>

>

> Fiona,

>

>

> Several comments for you, interspersed below with some of your post.

>

>

> > I feel such a loss of control. I feel like I lose my 'no.' Whenever I

> see his # on my caller ID, I ignore it. Today, I decided to try to give

> it another shot. But, as usual, as soon as he hears my voice, he's like

> a horse taking off at a race. there is no 'do you have a minute?' (and

> I'm at work!) He asks, just for the sake of asking, how i am, but

> doesn't really want to talk about that.

>

> Trust your instinct. If you can t say no, then you are being

> manipulated. People who manipulate you are not entitled to access to

> you so they can perfect their art. My nada would talk incessantly

> about her journey through the pits of hell, and no words of mine ever

> made a dent in the converstation. So you don t have the conversation.

MAYBE YOU'RE RIGHT. WHAT I'D BEEN DOING WAS LET HIM LEAVE A VOICEMAIL AND THEN

RESPONDING WITH A BRIEF EMAIL TO ACKNOWLEDGE HIS MESSAGE. MAYBE I'LL HAVE TO

CONTINUE DOING THIS TO AVOID BEING AMBUSHED BY HIS CONVERSATIONS.

>

> >

> > i feel bad saying these things because i do love him and worry about

> him but I just have had to distance myself from him because he is so

> much like my mother but in a much less proprietary manner.

>

> I feel bad saying XYZ about my BP family member because I love them.

> Such a KO thought. Loving someone does not preclude saying the truth

> about them or how they affect us, because that is disloyal. Just ask

> them, they ll tell us so. This is FOG at work in a major way.

>

>

> > I feel suffocated around him. He'll take shots--and in this way he is

> much like my mother--like " well, **I** don't mind talking to my family.

> **I** don't avoid them. " When I know that he DOES avoid them just as I

> do b/c my mother complains about him doing it. Or, " **I** like talking

> to people. "

>

> BP s gaslight about their behaviours. They justify themselves while

> condemning you for the same things. You are right. These are cheap

> shots. If you choose to listen to him at all, you ought to confront

> those hard and instantly. Well, IIIIII dont mind talking to my family.

> and you say, Don t do that. It is not up to you how or when I talk to

> my family, that is my choice. I m not going to listen to you

> criticizing me for that.

>WHAT IS GASLIGHTING? I'VE SEEN THE EXPRESSION ON THIS BOARD BUT DON'T FULLY

UNDERSTAND IT. CONFRONTING HIM IS VERY DIFFICULT. IF WE WERE BOXERS, I'D CALL

HIM LIGHT ON HIS FEET. WHEN I SAY SOMETHING TO HIM, " LIKE I DON'T LIKE WHAT YOU

JUST SAID, " HE'S VERY QUICK AND GOOD AT SAYING 'YOU MISUNDERSTOOD ME' OR I

DIDN'T MEAN IT LIKE THAT. " AND THEN I FEEL GUILTY FOR SAYING ANYTHING...

>

>

>

> don't feel safe with them. I feel scrutinized and appraised and

> criticized. But if the tables get turned at any point, and THEY get the

> criticism, forget it.

>

> You never have to put up with someone who makes you feel unsafe. You

> can establish boundaries with them and if they want you in their lives

> they can respect them. But if they don t , be prepared to cut them out

> for your safety.

>

>

> >

> > He loves to make little digs about my husband and I just ignore them

>

> NO NO NO NO NO! That is what we are trained to do as KOs. We just

> ignore the most outrageous behavior or speech. Don t you do it girl.

> Go to the spine store, and get a size small to start out with. The

> next time he makes a ' little dig about your husband " you need to do 2

> things.

> LOL; THANKS FOR THE EXTRA HELPING OF FIERCE!! YOU'RE TOTALLY RIGHT. IT IS

VERY HARD TO DO, B/C I KNOW HE'S TAKING IT AS I'M TAKING MY HUSBAND'S SIDE, OR I

LIKE MY HUSBAND MORE THAN HIM, ETC. ALSO, I NEED TO " REFRAME " WHAT " CONFRONT "

MEANS WITH MY BROTHER. I'M USED TO IT GETTING UGLY. I MIGHT NEED TO ACCEPT THAT

I JUST HAVE TO SAY WHAT I NEED TO SAY, MATTER OF FACTLY.

> First, tell yourself this is NOT a small thing. He is assaulting the

> most important relationship in your life, without regard to how it hurts

> you.

>

> Second, tell him sharply, loudly, publicly, and in no nonsense terms ;

> " That is my HUSBAND you are talking about, and I ll thank you to keep

> your damned mouth shut about him in the future. "

>

> He ll get pissed, but you just MAY get a moment of shocked silence. And

> he will get the message.

> SIGH, YES, YOU'RE RIGHT. AS CARRIE FISHER SAYS REPEATEDLY IN 'WHEN HARRY MET

SALLY,' " YOU'RE RIGHT, YOU'RE RIGHT, I KNOW YOU'RE RIGHT... "

> and then freeze him out of my life even more than usual. It really

> hurts when he does that and I'm dying to say something mean like, " well,

> at least I have somebody. You've never had a real relationship with

> ANYone in your life. Ever. " But I know i would regret it. I regret even

> thinking it.

>

> No , that is vindictive and mean, and just because you are hurt and want

> to hurt him back. What I suggested above defends your relationships,

> makes it clear they are important to you, and leaves his problems with

> him. Don t let him pull you to his game.

> >I KNOW, IT'S TRUE. I WOULDN'T DO THAT.

> > Our conversations are not REAL. They're not even conversations.

> They're him talking as though he were talking to a pillow. He barely

> lets me get a word in, he talks fast and furious. Like my mother, it's

> verbal diarrhea with him, and I'm the toilet. They just want to get

> every last bit out, with the same urgency of physical diarrhea, and

> won't let me interrupt until it's all out of their system. Sigh.>

> > And sheesh, when he gets philosophical...it's so pompous; it's a mix

> of Confucius and Barney Fife. " You know, in life, you can't let yourself

> become like the people you don't respect. You have to....blah blah blah

> blah blah. " I sooo want to silently hang the phone up and let him go

> on.>

> > And of course, as soon as I say, " well, I gotta go..., " he'll say, " Oh

> sorry! yeah, go! WAIT one more thing.... " and then THAT takes 2 or 3

> more minutes.

>

> To all of that I shudder and say, Geez! That was phone calls with my

> mom, exactly. I can try to share with her about my life, but it is as

> if I never spoke. I was just supposed to agree and sympathize with her.

> She could be so self righteous it made me want to puke. I used to lay

> the phone down and go drink a cup of coffee and go to the bathroom. She

> d never know I was gone.

> RIGHT, RIGHT!!! EXACTLY -- IT'S LIKE I HAVEN'T SPOKEN, LIKE I'M NOT EVEN

THERE. JUST AGREE AND CLUCK ALONG WITH THEM....'POOR YOU!' THAT'S HILARIOUS

THAT YOUR MOTHER DIDN'T KNOW YOU WEREN'T LISTENING.

> And it infuriated me when she did the Wait just one more thing deal. I

> reached the point that I would say, over top of her, I have to go now, I

> m hanging up, goodbye. And hang up. What she, and your brother did to

> us by ignoring us, was sheer rudeness, and discounting our worth.

> I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO DOING THIS. SERIOUSLY. I'M SICK OF IT.

>

> >

> > I feel bad for him, b/c I see the fleas he has from my mother; or

> maybe he's got some PD himself. He refuses to see a therapist. He did go

> one time to one and just didn't like the experience and didn't want to

> see about finding a therapist he liked. So that was that.

>

> Whether he is PD, ( Ithink so) , or just eat up with fleas, if he

> refuses to get help, you are not obligated to put up with it. It is

> your life. Own it.

> >I KNOW. IT'S VERY HARD. YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES WHEN MY HUSBAND AND I AND OUR

KIDS ARE HAVING A GREAT DAY, I FEEL A PANG OF GUILT THINKING OF MY BROTHER ALL

ALONE, OF HIS OWN CHOOSING. IT'S NOT MY FAULT OR OBLIGATION, BUT I FEEL IT.

GOTTA GET OVER THAT...

> > But I feel the impulse to swoop in and save him and cajole him and

> urge him to get help. But I'm just tired of doing that for my family.

> I've been doing that for him all his life. When he refused to go to

> college, I pleaded with him to reconsider. Then I supported his decision

> not to go. When he moved into a nasty furnished room, I was there for

> him, visiting as much as I could with food and feeling guilty that he

> had so little and I had much more. Even though that was his stupid

> choice. I've had enough of it.\

>

> Little mother of all living things. You can t save everyone else.

> Start with yourself.

TRUE WORDS.

>

>

> > For Christmas, I asked him what he wanted and he said, " the best

> present I could get is to spend time with you. " Which is very sweet, but

> as soon as he said it, my chest constricted at that feeling of being

> trapped with him. Because being with him in person is somewhat like the

> phone experience. I'm trying to be more honest with him but even when

> I'm with him in person, I can't get away fast enough.

>

> I could never have normal emotions and love with mom, because for her it

> was like being taken prisoner. They do that to you. But you have to be

> safe.

> >YES!! YEESH, THAT MUST HAVE BEEN SO CREEPY FOR YOU WITH YOUR MOM.

> > For Valentine's Day, he sent me an MP3 of a song called " I'll See You

> in My Dreams. " He and I are big Beatles fans and my favorite Beatle was

> (today would've been his birthday; happy birthday, !!) so

> he sent me the MP3 of a song. I don't know if I'm reading into

> it, but it felt kind of creepy getting it from him. I have always, from

> late adolescence to now, felt a weird undercurrent of emotional incest

> with my brother

>

> Emotional incest is a strong undercurrent with BP s. Again, trust your

> gut. Mom did they same thing to me, and parenthetically, to others I

> knew. IT'S GROSS.

>

> > I want to be closer to him but it feels like, with him, the only

> " close " is one that excludes my husband (as it TOTALLY is for my mother)

> and that excludes any real expression/honesty on my part.

>

> He won t permit a safe relationship. It is unhealthy.

> >

> > Thanks for listening; this was quite lengthy!, You re welcome, Fi.

> THANKS DOUG! THANKS FOR BEING OUR HONORARY BIG BROTHER...

> Doug

> >

> > Fiona

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Fi. Point...counterpoint. Responding back to a few of your

comments below.

>

> Hey Doug,

>

> thanks for your feedback. see my comments in all caps below.

> >WHAT IS GASLIGHTING? I'VE SEEN THE EXPRESSION ON THIS BOARD BUT DON'T

FULLY UNDERSTAND IT. CONFRONTING HIM IS VERY DIFFICULT. IF WE WERE

BOXERS, I'D CALL HIM LIGHT ON HIS FEET. WHEN I SAY SOMETHING TO HIM,

" LIKE I DON'T LIKE WHAT YOU JUST SAID, " HE'S VERY QUICK AND GOOD AT

SAYING 'YOU MISUNDERSTOOD ME' OR I DIDN'T MEAN IT LIKE THAT. " AND THEN I

FEEL GUILTY FOR SAYING ANYTHING...

Gaslighting is a technique used by BPD s, which is named for an old

movie called Gaslight. The husband in the movie is trying to drive his

wife crazy. He does so by changing things around, moving things, making

noises then denying hearing them. He denies her reality in order to

make her start to doubt her own reality. BP s will often have a

different view of reality than we do. This occurs in very specific

instances. They will remember things that did not happen, or fail to

remember things that did. The altered realities are always such as to

make them seem more the victim, or hero, the long suffering martyr, the

generous giving saint. They will make you, or any others included in

the memory, seem cruel, selfish, uncaring, or dependant on them.

The gaslight reality may be the polar opposite of what we know to be

true. It may also be close enough to make us doubt if we really recall

correctly, just wrong in small, but signifigant details.

It is infuritating, because they will swear and fight to the death

defending what they insist is true and we know to be totally off base.

As for the " you misunderstood me ploy " , it is just that. BP s will

never accept thier responsibility for behavriors, so it must have been

you in the wrong. Push the bullshit button at once when he does this.

If he says something rude or offensive and then tries to blow it off

with " I didnt mean it like that. " , stop him at once and say " You

said it like that, and I believe you most certainlhy DID mean it like

that. You are a grown man, and you know enough not to say things that

hurt or embaress me. So what you intended does not matter. What you

said was XYZ and you are not going to get away with that with me. "

Then toss your head, sniff, and give him the Miss Thang look!

> > LOL; THANKS FOR THE EXTRA HELPING OF FIERCE!! YOU'RE TOTALLY RIGHT.

IT IS VERY HARD TO DO, B/C I KNOW HE'S TAKING IT AS I'M TAKING MY

HUSBAND'S SIDE, OR I LIKE MY HUSBAND MORE THAN HIM, ETC. ALSO, I NEED TO

" REFRAME " WHAT " CONFRONT " MEANS WITH MY BROTHER. I'M USED TO IT GETTING

UGLY. I MIGHT NEED TO ACCEPT THAT I JUST HAVE TO SAY WHAT I NEED TO SAY,

MATTER OF FACTLY.

I think your brother is BP, not just full of fleas. But either way,

excuse me for saying so, but your brother is an asshole. And with a BP

or with an asshole, confront means not giving in to thier crap. So you

can choose to confront him from now on, or take his crap from now on.

You are a sweet kid, Fi, but you are SUCH a KO! You said...He s taking

it as I m taking my husbands side. Yes? And? So?

Or, that I like my husband more than him. Yes ? So?

I m going to shout now. OF COURSE !!! Who except a BP, or someone

whose sexual fixations are so off base as to be mentally ill would

expect otherwise.

The man is your husband. You love him. You sleep with him. He is your

lover. He is your best friend. In what world would you NOT take your

husbands side, and like your husband more than your brother? If

brother is in some doubt, you should clarify it for him.

Yes, I will Always take my husband s side. That is what wives do. Yes,

I do like him , and love him, better than you, or anyone else. He is my

HUSBAND. You ever read that thing about " For this cause shall a man

leave his mother and a woman leave her home, and these 2 shall become

one " ? That is how things are supposed to be.

> > >I KNOW. IT'S VERY HARD. YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES WHEN MY HUSBAND AND I

AND OUR KIDS ARE HAVING A GREAT DAY, I FEEL A PANG OF GUILT THINKING OF

MY BROTHER ALL ALONE, OF HIS OWN CHOOSING. IT'S NOT MY FAULT OR

OBLIGATION, BUT I FEEL IT. GOTTA GET OVER THAT...

No, not quite. It is ok, and it is compassionate that you feel empathy

for his pain. But healthy compassion says if you choose to keep jumping

in the water, I m going to let you stay wet. Guilt is what FOG does to

us. I feel great pity and compassion for a man on death row. I do not

feel guilt for his crime.

If you can make that difference, you can be what you are: A caring ,

compassionate woman. You women are a lot stronger in the empathy

department than we men are in any case. But empathy, not guilt. Right?

> > THANKS DOUG! THANKS FOR BEING OUR HONORARY BIG BROTHER...

> > Doug

> > >

> > > Fiona

> > >

> >

>