mental illness caused by other people

March 1, 2011

So the more I read about child abuse and dysfunctional families, the more

I'm starting to think that mental illness is caused by the way other people

treat you.

My family was like a pack of dogs, everyone fighting for dominance. They

didn't care what they had to do or who they hurt as long as they were top

dog. Unfortunately, I was the youngest, smallest and weakest, so top dog

wasn't attainable for me. I got the shit bullied out of me.

And then that impacted the way other people treated me because they saw I

was a bottom dog not a top dog. I'm still fighting that battle.

But basically, people's abuse, manipulations and power tactics- thats

probably what made my parents so abusive and their parents before that. Just

people making each other crazy and sick right and left. I see it at work,

too.

What do you guys think?

March 1, 2011

Mental illness runs in my family, so I know I got depression from both sides

of the family. I'm convinced, though, that it was horribly complicated and

worsened by the abuse, especially since it led to PTSD.

It's like a mixture of nature and nuture, I think.

Holly

On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Girlscout Cowboy <girlscout.cowboy@...

> wrote:

>

> So the more I read about child abuse and dysfunctional families, the more

> I'm starting to think that mental illness is caused by the way other people

> treat you.

>

> My family was like a pack of dogs, everyone fighting for dominance. They

> didn't care what they had to do or who they hurt as long as they were top

> dog. Unfortunately, I was the youngest, smallest and weakest, so top dog

> wasn't attainable for me. I got the shit bullied out of me.

>

> And then that impacted the way other people treated me because they saw I

> was a bottom dog not a top dog. I'm still fighting that battle.

>

> But basically, people's abuse, manipulations and power tactics- thats

> probably what made my parents so abusive and their parents before that.

> Just

> people making each other crazy and sick right and left. I see it at work,

> too.

>

> What do you guys think?

>

March 1, 2011

>

> What do you guys think?

>

Having read " Evil Genes, " I think that the genetic basis for mental illness

cannot be discounted. But in most cases, a kind and loving family can help a

child to grow up healthy in spite of genetic predisposition to mental illness.

Anyone who has raised a litter of kittens can attest that babies are born with

their temperaments intact. One kitten will be friendly, bold, and curious, while

another may be fearful and skittish, even though their mother clearly loves and

treats them the same.

The human brain is actually surprisingly plastic, and people who are aware of

their shortcomings can manage to do a " top-down " rewiring of their brains.

Lil

March 1, 2011

Well, see, if mental illness was only caused by being mistreated... then as the

smallest, weakest, most bullied and mistreated child in your family that means

you'd wind up the craziest, right? And you didn't. All of us here in this

Group were pretty badly mistreated: we were abused and/or neglected and/or

exploited, but none of us have bpd. We were psychologically injured ( ptsd,

depression, low self-esteem, etc.) but none of us " caught " a personality

disorder from our family, from our mistreatment.

The most current research says that it takes a combination of predisposing

genes, plus an invalidating environment for mental illness to manifest itself:

Nature plus nurture.

This makes sense to me, because of my own family circumstances.

My nada is the ONLY person in her foo with a personality disorder; I think she

was born with a super-hyper-sensitive temperament (just the luck or mischance of

the genetic roulette wheel, squared) meaning everything seemed extreme and scary

to her, and she had little if any ability to self-soothe. Its been called having

" no emotional skin. " In her rather ordinary, unremarkable, but solid, kindly,

average-joe family she *felt* invalidated. She grew up *feeling* unloved,

rejected, neglected and abused. But her *perception* was and is skewed: she has

cognitive distortion which makes everything seem negative to her. Nothing, no

amount of attention or validation was ever enough, or is ever good enough. She

grew up bullying and terrorizing her bewildered foo, and then she bullied and

terrorized her bewildered husband and kids. My nada, the " bad seed. "

As far as some mental illnesses like psychopathy and schizophrenia, the most

current research is leaning toward that being more due to genetics than

environment. Which is actually rather hopeful, to me.

If they can find out which specific genes are involved, then, perhaps in the

not-too-distant future gene therapy can undo that specific gene malfunction and

cure the horror that is psychopathy and the tragedy that is schizophrenia.

-Annie

>

> So the more I read about child abuse and dysfunctional families, the more

> I'm starting to think that mental illness is caused by the way other people

> treat you.

>

> My family was like a pack of dogs, everyone fighting for dominance. They

> didn't care what they had to do or who they hurt as long as they were top

> dog. Unfortunately, I was the youngest, smallest and weakest, so top dog

> wasn't attainable for me. I got the shit bullied out of me.

>

> And then that impacted the way other people treated me because they saw I

> was a bottom dog not a top dog. I'm still fighting that battle.

>

> But basically, people's abuse, manipulations and power tactics- thats

> probably what made my parents so abusive and their parents before that. Just

> people making each other crazy and sick right and left. I see it at work,

> too.

>

> What do you guys think?

>

March 2, 2011

I believe mental illness is caused by other people in that person's life

absolutely!

In the case of BPD's, I believe our nadas and/or fadas were incested or molested

and/or physically/emotionally/mentally abandoned by someone very close to them

that they COULD trust and that was so devastating it did cause PTSD and BPD is a

form of it.

In my nadas case it was caused I believe by her alcoholic father who incested

her from the age of two (exactly the same age she sexually abused me that I can

remember anyway) as well as physically, mentally and emotionally of course.

It would be interesting to discover how many of you here had similar

grandparents to test out this theory on a small scale.

March 2, 2011

Yeah, I'm extremly short in info about my nada's family of origin. About all

I know is that her mother had depression and shock therapy. . . . But

something must have happened to her to make her the way she is. I'm sure

genetics are part of it - but going back to the pack of dogs analogy - the

alpha (top) dog behaves very differently from the omega (bottom, target

dog). It changes your behavior.

I'm sure there is a major genetic component to mental illness - some more

than others like schizophrenia. But others, like the ones I have suffered

with - depression, suicidal thoughts etc - I think that can be a result of

how people treat you and where you fit in your pack of rabid asshole dogs.

>

> I believe mental illness is caused by other people in that person's life

> absolutely!

>

> In the case of BPD's, I believe our nadas and/or fadas were incested or

> molested and/or physically/emotionally/mentally abandoned by someone very

> close to them that they COULD trust and that was so devastating it did cause

> PTSD and BPD is a form of it.

>

> In my nadas case it was caused I believe by her alcoholic father who

> incested her from the age of two (exactly the same age she sexually abused

> me that I can remember anyway) as well as physically, mentally and

> emotionally of course.

>

> It would be interesting to discover how many of you here had similar

> grandparents to test out this theory on a small scale.

>

March 2, 2011

I just don't know. Some kids are raised in horrible circumstances and somehow

survive to go on to be wonderful, productive people. Others are destroyed by

their rotten home life. I still struggle each day to NOT repeat my nada's

behavior in my own life. My husband grew up in a very warped home with him Mom

telling him she wished she had jumped off a bridge while he was in her stomach,

called him a stupid sh!t and lovely things like that. He suffers from severe

depression to this day (he's 60). Is his genetic or a product being told how

useless and crappy he is?

Now we worry about our grandson. Our daughter is wonderful, intelligent, works

hard and is going for her master's degree. Her husband refuses to work, makes

demands on her all the time, has temper tantrums if she even tries to talk to

him about work and finances, even threatens to kill himself. The other day she

was outside changing the tire on his car, he was in the apt. playing video

games. The son started fussing. Dear old dad sent her a text asking when was she

going to finish because the baby was making noise. Give me a break! He couldn't

play with the child for 15 minutes? Yes, yes, I know - she's adding to the

problem by allowing him to act like an ass. I'm hoping when she gets a full time

job and is done with her Masters that she'll feel free to leave him.

But we're seeing a change in the grandson already. When we babysit (so she can

work), if dad comes to pick up the baby, baby starts crying when he sees him. We

went over yesterday to pick up the baby and he was just sitting in the middle of

the floor, staring at the carpet. What mobile 11 month old does that? It's

scary. When he came to our house, he perked right up, crawled to the toy box and

started playing, crawling all over us and giggling. I hate to see him destroyed

because of one a$$hole.

>

> So the more I read about child abuse and dysfunctional families, the more

> I'm starting to think that mental illness is caused by the way other people

> treat you.

>

> My family was like a pack of dogs, everyone fighting for dominance. They

> didn't care what they had to do or who they hurt as long as they were top

> dog. Unfortunately, I was the youngest, smallest and weakest, so top dog

> wasn't attainable for me. I got the shit bullied out of me.

>

> And then that impacted the way other people treated me because they saw I

> was a bottom dog not a top dog. I'm still fighting that battle.

>

> But basically, people's abuse, manipulations and power tactics- thats

> probably what made my parents so abusive and their parents before that. Just

> people making each other crazy and sick right and left. I see it at work,

> too.

>

> What do you guys think?

>

March 2, 2011

Oh wow--I'm glad your grandson has grandparents like you to watch over him.

That will go a LONG way to help keep your grandson from developing severe

emotional problems. I hope your daughter can see what's wrong and feel

courageous enough to leave the selfish [bleeper].

>

> I just don't know. Some kids are raised in horrible circumstances and

> somehow survive to go on to be wonderful, productive people. Others are

> destroyed by their rotten home life. I still struggle each day to NOT repeat

> my nada's behavior in my own life. My husband grew up in a very warped home

> with him Mom telling him she wished she had jumped off a bridge while he was

> in her stomach, called him a stupid sh!t and lovely things like that. He

> suffers from severe depression to this day (he's 60). Is his genetic or a

> product being told how useless and crappy he is?

>

> Now we worry about our grandson. Our daughter is wonderful, intelligent,

> works hard and is going for her master's degree. Her husband refuses to

> work, makes demands on her all the time, has temper tantrums if she even

> tries to talk to him about work and finances, even threatens to kill

> himself. The other day she was outside changing the tire on his car, he was

> in the apt. playing video games. The son started fussing. Dear old dad sent

> her a text asking when was she going to finish because the baby was making

> noise. Give me a break! He couldn't play with the child for 15 minutes? Yes,

> yes, I know - she's adding to the problem by allowing him to act like an

> ass. I'm hoping when she gets a full time job and is done with her Masters

> that she'll feel free to leave him.

>

> But we're seeing a change in the grandson already. When we babysit (so she

> can work), if dad comes to pick up the baby, baby starts crying when he sees

> him. We went over yesterday to pick up the baby and he was just sitting in

> the middle of the floor, staring at the carpet. What mobile 11 month old

> does that? It's scary. When he came to our house, he perked right up,

> crawled to the toy box and started playing, crawling all over us and

> giggling. I hate to see him destroyed because of one a$$hole.

>

> >

> > So the more I read about child abuse and dysfunctional families, the more

> > I'm starting to think that mental illness is caused by the way other

> people

> > treat you.

> >

> > My family was like a pack of dogs, everyone fighting for dominance. They

> > didn't care what they had to do or who they hurt as long as they were top

> > dog. Unfortunately, I was the youngest, smallest and weakest, so top dog

> > wasn't attainable for me. I got the shit bullied out of me.

> >

> > And then that impacted the way other people treated me because they saw I

> > was a bottom dog not a top dog. I'm still fighting that battle.

> >

> > But basically, people's abuse, manipulations and power tactics- thats

> > probably what made my parents so abusive and their parents before that.

> Just

> > people making each other crazy and sick right and left. I see it at work,

> > too.

> >

> > What do you guys think?

>

> >

March 2, 2011

Holly brings up a great point. A huge protective factor in fighting mental

illness is having supportive people in your life, even when your parents and

FOO are messed up. I think thats why I'm alive. My dad is a messed up,

enabling son of a bitch, but I always knew he loved me. And then his friends

pitched in a lot to help raise me. And then there were 2 or 3 women in the

neighborhood who became very interested in my life.

Now I try to do the same for other kids. I teach as a volunteer and I have

regular play dates with a friend's daughter who is 11.

Wow, its just not simple is it?

In the Family Crucible, it states that in every suicide there are two people

responsible. The person who wants the other person to die (my nada and bada)

and the person who wants to die themselves.

I'll never forget that statement in that book. I think about it every day. I

always thought it was totally my fault that I wanted to die. To think that a

therapist might actually state that other people pushed me up to the ledge?

Wow.

On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Holly Byers

wrote:

> Oh wow--I'm glad your grandson has grandparents like you to watch over him.

> That will go a LONG way to help keep your grandson from developing severe

> emotional problems. I hope your daughter can see what's wrong and feel

> courageous enough to leave the selfish [bleeper].

>

> >

> > I just don't know. Some kids are raised in horrible circumstances and

> > somehow survive to go on to be wonderful, productive people. Others are

> > destroyed by their rotten home life. I still struggle each day to NOT

> repeat

> > my nada's behavior in my own life. My husband grew up in a very warped

> home

> > with him Mom telling him she wished she had jumped off a bridge while he

> was

> > in her stomach, called him a stupid sh!t and lovely things like that. He

> > suffers from severe depression to this day (he's 60). Is his genetic or a

> > product being told how useless and crappy he is?

> >

> > Now we worry about our grandson. Our daughter is wonderful, intelligent,

> > works hard and is going for her master's degree. Her husband refuses to

> > work, makes demands on her all the time, has temper tantrums if she even

> > tries to talk to him about work and finances, even threatens to kill

> > himself. The other day she was outside changing the tire on his car, he

> was

> > in the apt. playing video games. The son started fussing. Dear old dad

> sent

> > her a text asking when was she going to finish because the baby was

> making

> > noise. Give me a break! He couldn't play with the child for 15 minutes?

> Yes,

> > yes, I know - she's adding to the problem by allowing him to act like an

> > ass. I'm hoping when she gets a full time job and is done with her

> Masters

> > that she'll feel free to leave him.

> >

> > But we're seeing a change in the grandson already. When we babysit (so

> she

> > can work), if dad comes to pick up the baby, baby starts crying when he

> sees

> > him. We went over yesterday to pick up the baby and he was just sitting

> in

> > the middle of the floor, staring at the carpet. What mobile 11 month old

> > does that? It's scary. When he came to our house, he perked right up,

> > crawled to the toy box and started playing, crawling all over us and

> > giggling. I hate to see him destroyed because of one a$$hole.

> >

> > >

> > > So the more I read about child abuse and dysfunctional families, the

> more

> > > I'm starting to think that mental illness is caused by the way other

> > people

> > > treat you.

> > >

> > > My family was like a pack of dogs, everyone fighting for dominance.

> They

> > > didn't care what they had to do or who they hurt as long as they were

> top

> > > dog. Unfortunately, I was the youngest, smallest and weakest, so top

> dog

> > > wasn't attainable for me. I got the shit bullied out of me.

> > >

> > > And then that impacted the way other people treated me because they saw

> I

> > > was a bottom dog not a top dog. I'm still fighting that battle.

> > >

> > > But basically, people's abuse, manipulations and power tactics- thats

> > > probably what made my parents so abusive and their parents before that.

> > Just

> > > people making each other crazy and sick right and left. I see it at

> work,

> > > too.

> > >

> > > What do you guys think?

> >

> > >

March 2, 2011

That's absolutely true, Girlscout, other people play a HUGE role in

suicides. One of my friends is living in Japan right now, teaching English

at a high school there, and he said that in Japan there is an unspoken thing

of " murder by suicide. "

Basically one person who wants the other person to die is extremely

manipulative about things that causes them to feel worthless, and in Japan,

suicide is an acceptable route to take in the culture, so there's no

personal guilt associated with it, generally.

He also said that manipulation is a huge part of Japanese culture, so he has

a hard time distinguishing between " okay " manipulation and " bad "

manipulation.

Just something interesting that you reminded me about.

Holly

On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Girlscout Cowboy <

girlscout.cowboy@...> wrote:

>

> Holly brings up a great point. A huge protective factor in fighting mental

> illness is having supportive people in your life, even when your parents

> and

> FOO are messed up. I think thats why I'm alive. My dad is a messed up,

> enabling son of a bitch, but I always knew he loved me. And then his

> friends

> pitched in a lot to help raise me. And then there were 2 or 3 women in the

> neighborhood who became very interested in my life.

>

> Now I try to do the same for other kids. I teach as a volunteer and I have

> regular play dates with a friend's daughter who is 11.

>

> Wow, its just not simple is it?

>

> In the Family Crucible, it states that in every suicide there are two

> people

> responsible. The person who wants the other person to die (my nada and

> bada)

> and the person who wants to die themselves.

>

> I'll never forget that statement in that book. I think about it every day.

> I

> always thought it was totally my fault that I wanted to die. To think that

> a

> therapist might actually state that other people pushed me up to the ledge?

> Wow.

>

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Holly Byers

> wrote:

>

> > Oh wow--I'm glad your grandson has grandparents like you to watch over

> him.

> > That will go a LONG way to help keep your grandson from developing severe

> > emotional problems. I hope your daughter can see what's wrong and feel

> > courageous enough to leave the selfish [bleeper].

> >

> > >

> > > I just don't know. Some kids are raised in horrible circumstances and

> > > somehow survive to go on to be wonderful, productive people. Others are

> > > destroyed by their rotten home life. I still struggle each day to NOT

> > repeat

> > > my nada's behavior in my own life. My husband grew up in a very warped

> > home

> > > with him Mom telling him she wished she had jumped off a bridge while

> he

> > was

> > > in her stomach, called him a stupid sh!t and lovely things like that.

> He

> > > suffers from severe depression to this day (he's 60). Is his genetic or

> a

> > > product being told how useless and crappy he is?

> > >

> > > Now we worry about our grandson. Our daughter is wonderful,

> intelligent,

> > > works hard and is going for her master's degree. Her husband refuses to

> > > work, makes demands on her all the time, has temper tantrums if she

> even

> > > tries to talk to him about work and finances, even threatens to kill

> > > himself. The other day she was outside changing the tire on his car, he

> > was

> > > in the apt. playing video games. The son started fussing. Dear old dad

> > sent

> > > her a text asking when was she going to finish because the baby was

> > making

> > > noise. Give me a break! He couldn't play with the child for 15 minutes?

> > Yes,

> > > yes, I know - she's adding to the problem by allowing him to act like

> an

> > > ass. I'm hoping when she gets a full time job and is done with her

> > Masters

> > > that she'll feel free to leave him.

> > >

> > > But we're seeing a change in the grandson already. When we babysit (so

> > she

> > > can work), if dad comes to pick up the baby, baby starts crying when he

> > sees

> > > him. We went over yesterday to pick up the baby and he was just sitting

> > in

> > > the middle of the floor, staring at the carpet. What mobile 11 month

> old

> > > does that? It's scary. When he came to our house, he perked right up,

> > > crawled to the toy box and started playing, crawling all over us and

> > > giggling. I hate to see him destroyed because of one a$$hole.

> > >

> > > >

> > > > So the more I read about child abuse and dysfunctional families, the

> > more

> > > > I'm starting to think that mental illness is caused by the way other

> > > people

> > > > treat you.

> > > >

> > > > My family was like a pack of dogs, everyone fighting for dominance.

> > They

> > > > didn't care what they had to do or who they hurt as long as they were

> > top

> > > > dog. Unfortunately, I was the youngest, smallest and weakest, so top

> > dog

> > > > wasn't attainable for me. I got the shit bullied out of me.

> > > >

> > > > And then that impacted the way other people treated me because they

> saw

> > I

> > > > was a bottom dog not a top dog. I'm still fighting that battle.

> > > >

> > > > But basically, people's abuse, manipulations and power tactics- thats

> > > > probably what made my parents so abusive and their parents before

> that.

> > > Just

> > > > people making each other crazy and sick right and left. I see it at

> > work,

> > > > too.

> > > >

> > > > What do you guys think?

> > >

> > > >

March 2, 2011

Whoa mega interesting. I'll look into that. Thanks

On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 11:08 AM, Holly Byers

wrote:

> That's absolutely true, Girlscout, other people play a HUGE role in

> suicides. One of my friends is living in Japan right now, teaching English

> at a high school there, and he said that in Japan there is an unspoken

> thing

> of " murder by suicide. "

>

> Basically one person who wants the other person to die is extremely

> manipulative about things that causes them to feel worthless, and in Japan,

> suicide is an acceptable route to take in the culture, so there's no

> personal guilt associated with it, generally.

>

> He also said that manipulation is a huge part of Japanese culture, so he

> has

> a hard time distinguishing between " okay " manipulation and " bad "

> manipulation.

>

> Just something interesting that you reminded me about.

> Holly

>

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Girlscout Cowboy <

> girlscout.cowboy@...> wrote:

>

> >

> > Holly brings up a great point. A huge protective factor in fighting

> mental

> > illness is having supportive people in your life, even when your parents

> > and

> > FOO are messed up. I think thats why I'm alive. My dad is a messed up,

> > enabling son of a bitch, but I always knew he loved me. And then his

> > friends

> > pitched in a lot to help raise me. And then there were 2 or 3 women in

> the

> > neighborhood who became very interested in my life.

> >

> > Now I try to do the same for other kids. I teach as a volunteer and I

> have

> > regular play dates with a friend's daughter who is 11.

> >

> > Wow, its just not simple is it?

> >

> > In the Family Crucible, it states that in every suicide there are two

> > people

> > responsible. The person who wants the other person to die (my nada and

> > bada)

> > and the person who wants to die themselves.

> >

> > I'll never forget that statement in that book. I think about it every

> day.

> > I

> > always thought it was totally my fault that I wanted to die. To think

> that

> > a

> > therapist might actually state that other people pushed me up to the

> ledge?

> > Wow.

> >

> > On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Holly Byers

> > wrote:

> >

> > > Oh wow--I'm glad your grandson has grandparents like you to watch over

> > him.

> > > That will go a LONG way to help keep your grandson from developing

> severe

> > > emotional problems. I hope your daughter can see what's wrong and feel

> > > courageous enough to leave the selfish [bleeper].

> > >

> > > >

> > > > I just don't know. Some kids are raised in horrible circumstances and

> > > > somehow survive to go on to be wonderful, productive people. Others

> are

> > > > destroyed by their rotten home life. I still struggle each day to NOT

> > > repeat

> > > > my nada's behavior in my own life. My husband grew up in a very

> warped

> > > home

> > > > with him Mom telling him she wished she had jumped off a bridge while

> > he

> > > was

> > > > in her stomach, called him a stupid sh!t and lovely things like that.

> > He

> > > > suffers from severe depression to this day (he's 60). Is his genetic

> or

> > a

> > > > product being told how useless and crappy he is?

> > > >

> > > > Now we worry about our grandson. Our daughter is wonderful,

> > intelligent,

> > > > works hard and is going for her master's degree. Her husband refuses

> to

> > > > work, makes demands on her all the time, has temper tantrums if she

> > even

> > > > tries to talk to him about work and finances, even threatens to kill

> > > > himself. The other day she was outside changing the tire on his car,

> he

> > > was

> > > > in the apt. playing video games. The son started fussing. Dear old

> dad

> > > sent

> > > > her a text asking when was she going to finish because the baby was

> > > making

> > > > noise. Give me a break! He couldn't play with the child for 15

> minutes?

> > > Yes,

> > > > yes, I know - she's adding to the problem by allowing him to act like

> > an

> > > > ass. I'm hoping when she gets a full time job and is done with her

> > > Masters

> > > > that she'll feel free to leave him.

> > > >

> > > > But we're seeing a change in the grandson already. When we babysit

> (so

> > > she

> > > > can work), if dad comes to pick up the baby, baby starts crying when

> he

> > > sees

> > > > him. We went over yesterday to pick up the baby and he was just

> sitting

> > > in

> > > > the middle of the floor, staring at the carpet. What mobile 11 month

> > old

> > > > does that? It's scary. When he came to our house, he perked right up,

> > > > crawled to the toy box and started playing, crawling all over us and

> > > > giggling. I hate to see him destroyed because of one a$$hole.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > So the more I read about child abuse and dysfunctional families,

> the

> > > more

> > > > > I'm starting to think that mental illness is caused by the way

> other

> > > > people

> > > > > treat you.

> > > > >

> > > > > My family was like a pack of dogs, everyone fighting for dominance.

> > > They

> > > > > didn't care what they had to do or who they hurt as long as they

> were

> > > top

> > > > > dog. Unfortunately, I was the youngest, smallest and weakest, so

> top

> > > dog

> > > > > wasn't attainable for me. I got the shit bullied out of me.

> > > > >

> > > > > And then that impacted the way other people treated me because they

> > saw

> > > I

> > > > > was a bottom dog not a top dog. I'm still fighting that battle.

> > > > >

> > > > > But basically, people's abuse, manipulations and power tactics-

> thats

> > > > > probably what made my parents so abusive and their parents before

> > that.

> > > > Just

> > > > > people making each other crazy and sick right and left. I see it at

> > > work,

> > > > > too.

> > > > >

> > > > > What do you guys think?

> > > >

> > > > >

March 2, 2011

" Mental illness " covers an incredibly broad spectrum of things.

Depression is a far different problem than PTSD and both are

differ from BPD or schizophrenia. I don't think you can

attribute all of it to one cause. I think that environmental

factors such as the way other people treat you can be a big part

of some mental problems. PTSD is one example that is generally

triggered by something that has happened to the people that have

it. I think genetics plays at least some part in most mental

illness though. Even if it is triggered by environmental

factors, similar environments don't cause the same mental

illnesses in everyone. I think some people are going to have

mental illnesses no matter how good they're treated by other

people. Others go through horrifying experiences and come out

fine. I believe that BPD is caused by a combination of

environment and genetics with some people falling more to one

side and some to the other. When someone with the genes that

cause BPD is raised abusively by a parent with BPD that results

in a double-whammy situation. My nada's father died when she was

13 and her family was very poor after he got sick and then died.

That's not abuse, but maybe it was enough to trigger a genetic

tendency to have BPD. Or maybe she was already showing signs of

it before her father's death. One of my uncles told me that she

managed to manipulate the whole family with her tantrums.

People who are abusive without having a mental illness are

another matter. Abuse of that sort is usually learned behavior.

Sometimes it is learned from their parents or other care-givers,

sometimes it comes from cultural attitudes in whichever culture

they grew up in.

At 07:02 PM 03/01/2011 Girlscout Cowboy wrote:

>So the more I read about child abuse and dysfunctional

>families, the more

>I'm starting to think that mental illness is caused by the way

>other people

>treat you.

>

>My family was like a pack of dogs, everyone fighting for

>dominance. They

>didn't care what they had to do or who they hurt as long as

>they were top

>dog. Unfortunately, I was the youngest, smallest and weakest,

>so top dog

>wasn't attainable for me. I got the shit bullied out of me.

>

>And then that impacted the way other people treated me because

>they saw I

>was a bottom dog not a top dog. I'm still fighting that battle.

>

>But basically, people's abuse, manipulations and power tactics-

>thats

>probably what made my parents so abusive and their parents

>before that. Just

>people making each other crazy and sick right and left. I see

>it at work,

>too.

>

>What do you guys think?

--

Katrina

March 2, 2011

If you read posts at support Groups for non-pd parents who are raising a child

with personality disorder (there is a support Group for this at WTO, and one at

bpdfamily.com) you'll read heart-wrenching pleas for help from parents who are

torn apart with guilt, believing that they must have done something that caused

their child to have personality disorder.

In a lot of these posts, it seems that there are mentally healthy children in

the family as well as the child with bpd. Most of the posts are about a teen or

young adult with borderline pd, and most of them are girls. These parents who

write these posts sound normal to me: compassionate, frantic with worry, and

wracked with (apparently) misplaced guilt over their beloved daughter who is

(depending on the poster) either suicidal, who lies, who is physically abusive

to their parents or to their siblings, who steals, who refuses to stay in

school, etc. Some of these kids with bpd are in residential treatment centers,

some are at home, some are living on the streets.

These parents who post about their child with bpd do not sound like abusive,

negligent monsters to me, they sound stricken with the kind of pain and guilt we

KOs feel.

They are bewildered, they feel helpless. Nothing they try seems to help. Their

daughter is clearly disturbed, negative, cognitively distorted, and emotionally

dysregulated: a toxic roller-coaster of rage and/or depression often based on

mis-perceptions or paranoia, and sometimes a real danger to herself and those

around her.

I think some of these parents are writing about what my nada was like as a young

girl and teen. My nada paralyzed her foo with her rages and manipulations and

screaming tantrums and cognitive distortions; I personally witnessed on many

occasions how she would do this to her own older sister/my aunt, and I observed

how nobody ever stood up to her. Nada's foo were bewildered and cowed by her.

Then she got married to my dad, and he couldn't really manage her either but was

(apparently) determined to stay married to her no matter what. (From reading

posts at the " relationship with a bpd " boards, it seems the sex with a bpd

female is amazingly wild, so, maybe that's it?)

In any case, I think that's why the researchers are leaning towards mental

illnesses being caused by a combination of nature and nurture.

Psychological injury on the other hand, a condition such a post-traumatic stress

disorder, is due to environmentally-generated abuse, danger or disaster, and yet

the individual victim's inborn temperament can affect how much damage results

from such psychological trauma. (The site " Bully Online " makes the point that

there is a difference between acquired psychological injury, and mental illness.

They define mental illness as conditions like psychopathy and schizophrenia

which appear to have a genetic component to them. Me personally, this makes

sense to me.)

How each individual person weathers their environment has a lot to do with their

inborn, genetically-determined temperament: resiliency vs sensitivity,

curiosity/boldness vs fearfulness, etc. And as we just read, one's environment

can actually determine how some genetic factors are expressed, meaning whether

the " circuit " controlled by that gene will be flipped on or flipped off.

It would appear to be a lot more complicated than just abuse or just genes; a

complex interplay of both is what the researchers are writing their papers about

these days.

-Annie

>

> I just don't know. Some kids are raised in horrible circumstances and somehow

survive to go on to be wonderful, productive people. Others are destroyed by

their rotten home life. I still struggle each day to NOT repeat my nada's

behavior in my own life. My husband grew up in a very warped home with him Mom

telling him she wished she had jumped off a bridge while he was in her stomach,

called him a stupid sh!t and lovely things like that. He suffers from severe

depression to this day (he's 60). Is his genetic or a product being told how

useless and crappy he is?

>

> Now we worry about our grandson. Our daughter is wonderful, intelligent, works