Guilt

[Guest guest]

I know that we have dealt with guilt our entire lives. My nada is a mean,

horrible, manipulative person who have brought me up into a world that, until

the age of 25, been taught to fear. I was told my entire life how fat and ugly I

was, every dream I had on what I wanted to become was shattered. In front of

people, my nada was a loving, kind, funny person that everyone adored. Behind

closed doors, she was a monster. When she would get angry, I literally would

shake out of fear. I saw her like an oncoming train coming at me. Being an only

child with a fada that didnt protect me, I was usually the target. As a result,

I did everything I could to avoid her rage and wrath. I did chores at a very

young age, liked what tv show, music and food she liked, did everything she

wanted me to do. I basically didn't have an identity until I moved away at 17

and decided what it was like to discover my life for myself. From then on, I

have found out what a wonderful world it really is.

I went through hell with my nada after I got married. she did not like my

husband at all because he wore earrings, wore sandals and shorts all the time,

had short hair, talked loud, drank beer, soda, water, didn't come over enough or

came over too much... but basically she didn't like him because he wasn't my

fada. He had a mind of his own and when my nada would say a horrible, nasty

comment (like she usually would), he would shut up like me and my fada did. He

spoke up and told her when it was inappropriate. She didn't like that. Everytime

we spoke, she had something negative to say about him. When my husband's dad

suddenly died 2 weeks after our wedding, we immediately went into the stages of

mourning. We had to help out his mom (who was distraught and a zombie, as any

woman would be after your husband of 30 years suddenly dies). After two weeks of

settling things, my nada says to me " You guys aren't over it yet? Jeez! You act

like he was Jesus or something! " what a nice thing to say after someone's dad

dies.

After ALL of this, I still have tremendous guilt over my decision to go NC. I

tried....I really did try. I tried to make it work. I tried to go LC with my

nada, set boundaries with her, tell her we would not talk about my husband, that

I won't tolerate her yelling at me, that Im not going over her house every

day/weekend and I don't want drama about it. But nothing worked. I sat there and

listened to everything nasty she had to say to me and didn't yell back because I

wanted a relationship with my mom. As a young adult when we would argue, she

always threatened me with abandonment.. " If I hang up, its over between us. " but

I always went back. After years of going through this, our last fight ended with

" Not even on my death bed do I want you around me! You're evil! " That was my way

out. That was when I walked out the door and never looked back.

Until now.

I have been dealing with horrible guilt and abandonment issues over this lately.

In my head, I did the right thing. I finally stood up for myself and said

" Enough! " So why do I feel so guilty? Why do I feel compelled to call her and

talk to her or to ask her if everything is okay. Has she called me? yes, a

couple of times. Sometimes I will answer, but mostely it goes straight to voice

mail. Now she makes my fada call me. Why do I care what a person, who basically

abused me my entire life, is doing? Why?

Any advice??

AJ

[Guest guest]

Why do we remain so amazingly loyal and *needful* of connecting with someone who

has been consistently abusive to us our whole lives? It defies reason and

logic.

I think the answer is that we've been subjected to " betrayal bonding " , and I've

read that " betrayal bonding " is stronger than epoxy glue.

Betrayal bonding happens when the parent who is supposed to be caring for the

infant/child is also the child's abuser. So, the child is tormented or beaten

or neglected by her parent, but then the parent will occasionally relent and

offers the child some attention or tenderness, over and over... and the child's

subconscious survival instinct kicks in and screams, " This is your own fault:

you have to try harder, show more love, show more clinging attachment to mommy

so that she will feel some reciprocal attachment to you and won't beat you

again, or leave you! "

This denial of mother's guilt and this shouldering on the child's part of the

mother's responsibility for the abuse ( " Mommy treats me like this because I

deserve it, so, if I try hard enough she will love me " ) happens because if the

child were to be able to comprehend the full reality: that there IS no real

reason why she is being mistreated, that its mommy who is insane, scary, violent

and unpredictable and might easily just kill her in a fit of rage or wander off,

forget about her, give her away or leave her to die, then the child would sink

into a deep pit of despair and give up living.

This protective inability to comprehend that her own mother does not really want

her or love her, and could easily abandon her, injure her or even kill her keeps

the small child from committing suicide.

This primal drive to bond with the mother apparently endures far past the

child's maturation and ability to take care of herself.

And it endures even in the face of chronic abuse! That's the uncanny part; that

even as we enter our late twenties, thirties, and beyond and no longer are

dependent minor kids... that we remain *needful* of attachment to The Mother

even if she is actively hostile and toxic to us, or even if she abandons us.

The betrayal bond over-rides the normal course of events; in normal, healthy

parent-child attachment, the child feels safe and secure in her mother's and

father's love, so it is safe for her to mature and individuate from her parents

and become her own autonomous person.

The abused or neglected child remains insecure of her parents' love, and can't

afford to individuate. If she begins to separate in the normal way from her

parents, they might just walk off and leave her and never see or speak to her

again. That feels like death to the child, or to the child inside us after we

become adults.

Its truly amazing, the human psyche and its workings.

Sorry to ramble on so long, its just me musing " out loud " , and its just my

opinion to take or leave as you like.

-Annie

>

> I know that we have dealt with guilt our entire lives. My nada is a mean,

horrible, manipulative person who have brought me up into a world that, until

the age of 25, been taught to fear. I was told my entire life how fat and ugly I

was, every dream I had on what I wanted to become was shattered. In front of

people, my nada was a loving, kind, funny person that everyone adored. Behind

closed doors, she was a monster. When she would get angry, I literally would

shake out of fear. I saw her like an oncoming train coming at me. Being an only

child with a fada that didnt protect me, I was usually the target. As a result,

I did everything I could to avoid her rage and wrath. I did chores at a very

young age, liked what tv show, music and food she liked, did everything she

wanted me to do. I basically didn't have an identity until I moved away at 17

and decided what it was like to discover my life for myself. From then on, I

have found out what a wonderful world it really is.

> I went through hell with my nada after I got married. she did not like my

husband at all because he wore earrings, wore sandals and shorts all the time,

had short hair, talked loud, drank beer, soda, water, didn't come over enough or

came over too much... but basically she didn't like him because he wasn't my

fada. He had a mind of his own and when my nada would say a horrible, nasty

comment (like she usually would), he would shut up like me and my fada did. He

spoke up and told her when it was inappropriate. She didn't like that. Everytime

we spoke, she had something negative to say about him. When my husband's dad

suddenly died 2 weeks after our wedding, we immediately went into the stages of

mourning. We had to help out his mom (who was distraught and a zombie, as any

woman would be after your husband of 30 years suddenly dies). After two weeks of

settling things, my nada says to me " You guys aren't over it yet? Jeez! You act

like he was Jesus or something! " what a nice thing to say after someone's dad

dies.

>

> After ALL of this, I still have tremendous guilt over my decision to go NC. I

tried....I really did try. I tried to make it work. I tried to go LC with my

nada, set boundaries with her, tell her we would not talk about my husband, that

I won't tolerate her yelling at me, that Im not going over her house every

day/weekend and I don't want drama about it. But nothing worked. I sat there and

listened to everything nasty she had to say to me and didn't yell back because I

wanted a relationship with my mom. As a young adult when we would argue, she

always threatened me with abandonment.. " If I hang up, its over between us. " but

I always went back. After years of going through this, our last fight ended with

" Not even on my death bed do I want you around me! You're evil! " That was my way

out. That was when I walked out the door and never looked back.

>

> Until now.

>

>

> I have been dealing with horrible guilt and abandonment issues over this

lately. In my head, I did the right thing. I finally stood up for myself and

said " Enough! " So why do I feel so guilty? Why do I feel compelled to call her

and talk to her or to ask her if everything is okay. Has she called me? yes, a

couple of times. Sometimes I will answer, but mostely it goes straight to voice

mail. Now she makes my fada call me. Why do I care what a person, who basically

abused me my entire life, is doing? Why?

>

>

> Any advice??

>

> AJ

>

[Guest guest]

The " betrayal bonding " sure explains a lot - awesome explanation of Annie. I

don't know if this is part of it also, but I'll add my theory to the mix. I

think that having a mother who is dangerous to one's mental well-being as an

infant creates an experience of unbearable psychological pain that gets walled

off. It has to be for the betrayal bonding to kick in and the kid to believe

Mom's okay and still try to love her. But THEN the mother has the most terrible

button ever devised that she can push at any time - withdraw her love or even

condemn the child and the initial pain of the failed attachment gets activated.

A pain that's preverbal, before the thinking mind, and the worst an infant can

experience because they fear death being rejected by their caregiver...now tie

back in to betrayal bonding. What *wouldn't* that child do to never experience

the triggering of that pain?

>

> Why do we remain so amazingly loyal and *needful* of connecting with someone

who has been consistently abusive to us our whole lives? It defies reason and

logic.

>

> I think the answer is that we've been subjected to " betrayal bonding " , and

I've read that " betrayal bonding " is stronger than epoxy glue.

>

> Betrayal bonding happens when the parent who is supposed to be caring for the

infant/child is also the child's abuser. So, the child is tormented or beaten

or neglected by her parent, but then the parent will occasionally relent and

offers the child some attention or tenderness, over and over... and the child's

subconscious survival instinct kicks in and screams, " This is your own fault:

you have to try harder, show more love, show more clinging attachment to mommy

so that she will feel some reciprocal attachment to you and won't beat you

again, or leave you! "

>

> This denial of mother's guilt and this shouldering on the child's part of the

mother's responsibility for the abuse ( " Mommy treats me like this because I

deserve it, so, if I try hard enough she will love me " ) happens because if the

child were to be able to comprehend the full reality: that there IS no real

reason why she is being mistreated, that its mommy who is insane, scary, violent

and unpredictable and might easily just kill her in a fit of rage or wander off,

forget about her, give her away or leave her to die, then the child would sink

into a deep pit of despair and give up living.

>

> This protective inability to comprehend that her own mother does not really

want her or love her, and could easily abandon her, injure her or even kill her

keeps the small child from committing suicide.

>

> This primal drive to bond with the mother apparently endures far past the

child's maturation and ability to take care of herself.

>

> And it endures even in the face of chronic abuse! That's the uncanny part;

that even as we enter our late twenties, thirties, and beyond and no longer are

dependent minor kids... that we remain *needful* of attachment to The Mother

even if she is actively hostile and toxic to us, or even if she abandons us.

>

> The betrayal bond over-rides the normal course of events; in normal, healthy

parent-child attachment, the child feels safe and secure in her mother's and

father's love, so it is safe for her to mature and individuate from her parents

and become her own autonomous person.

>

> The abused or neglected child remains insecure of her parents' love, and can't

afford to individuate. If she begins to separate in the normal way from her

parents, they might just walk off and leave her and never see or speak to her

again. That feels like death to the child, or to the child inside us after we

become adults.

>

> Its truly amazing, the human psyche and its workings.

>

> Sorry to ramble on so long, its just me musing " out loud " , and its just my

opinion to take or leave as you like.

>

> -Annie

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi AJ,

I'm not NC but I've scaled back from my mother a LOT, and that was very, very

hard for me. Like you, I got the guilts big time. I felt like something bad was

going to happen to her if I didn't call her. I also felt bad because I wasn't

playing my " role " in my family anymore and it confused her and my brother,

another major character in the play! But I had to tell myself not to care. I

had to move on, it was overdue for me to move on.

Don't know if you're in therapy, but I have to say that helped me a great deal

in working it all through and in understanding that I " m not a bad girl because I

can't or don't want to talk to my mother 6 or 7 times a day, for 30 minutes or

more every time.

You are doing the right thing for you and your marriage. if you pretended your

best friend was telling you what you told us below, you would tell her not to go

back for that kind of treatment, that she's worth more than that. And you are.

She wants you back on her terms and isn't willing to accept you halfway. And

what would you be going back to??

I'm so glad you have your own life now.

Fiona

>

> I know that we have dealt with guilt our entire lives. My nada is a mean,

horrible, manipulative person who have brought me up into a world that, until

the age of 25, been taught to fear. I was told my entire life how fat and ugly I

was, every dream I had on what I wanted to become was shattered. In front of

people, my nada was a loving, kind, funny person that everyone adored. Behind

closed doors, she was a monster. When she would get angry, I literally would

shake out of fear. I saw her like an oncoming train coming at me. Being an only

child with a fada that didnt protect me, I was usually the target. As a result,

I did everything I could to avoid her rage and wrath. I did chores at a very

young age, liked what tv show, music and food she liked, did everything she

wanted me to do. I basically didn't have an identity until I moved away at 17

and decided what it was like to discover my life for myself. From then on, I

have found out what a wonderful world it really is.

> I went through hell with my nada after I got married. she did not like my

husband at all because he wore earrings, wore sandals and shorts all the time,

had short hair, talked loud, drank beer, soda, water, didn't come over enough or

came over too much... but basically she didn't like him because he wasn't my

fada. He had a mind of his own and when my nada would say a horrible, nasty

comment (like she usually would), he would shut up like me and my fada did. He

spoke up and told her when it was inappropriate. She didn't like that. Everytime

we spoke, she had something negative to say about him. When my husband's dad

suddenly died 2 weeks after our wedding, we immediately went into the stages of

mourning. We had to help out his mom (who was distraught and a zombie, as any

woman would be after your husband of 30 years suddenly dies). After two weeks of

settling things, my nada says to me " You guys aren't over it yet? Jeez! You act

like he was Jesus or something! " what a nice thing to say after someone's dad

dies.

>

> After ALL of this, I still have tremendous guilt over my decision to go NC. I

tried....I really did try. I tried to make it work. I tried to go LC with my

nada, set boundaries with her, tell her we would not talk about my husband, that

I won't tolerate her yelling at me, that Im not going over her house every

day/weekend and I don't want drama about it. But nothing worked. I sat there and

listened to everything nasty she had to say to me and didn't yell back because I

wanted a relationship with my mom. As a young adult when we would argue, she

always threatened me with abandonment.. " If I hang up, its over between us. " but

I always went back. After years of going through this, our last fight ended with

" Not even on my death bed do I want you around me! You're evil! " That was my way

out. That was when I walked out the door and never looked back.

>

> Until now.

>

>

> I have been dealing with horrible guilt and abandonment issues over this

lately. In my head, I did the right thing. I finally stood up for myself and

said " Enough! " So why do I feel so guilty? Why do I feel compelled to call her

and talk to her or to ask her if everything is okay. Has she called me? yes, a

couple of times. Sometimes I will answer, but mostely it goes straight to voice

mail. Now she makes my fada call me. Why do I care what a person, who basically

abused me my entire life, is doing? Why?

>

>

> Any advice??

>

> AJ

>

[Guest guest]

Your husband sounds awesome!!! Applause!!!!

Yeah that is so shitty that your nada said your fil wasn't Jesus. My nada

also said things like that when she didn't get her way.

We bond to our abusive parents as children because honestly, the only

alternative is death. It's like that sad study of the baby monkeys - they

chose a terry clothe mother sub that they could hug over a wire one that

gave them milk. We require bonding to survive.

Now that you are an adult, you can form other bonds and relationships that

will allow you to let go of your attachment to your nada. It is very very

very hard.

I'm lucky because I was bonded very little to my nada. My dad did almost all

of the caregiving in my house while she sat around like a big kid, just like

Dudley in Harry Potter. But, I still have some of that bond and its hard as

hell.

Hugs! Don't go back. Never go back.

>

>

> Hi AJ,

> I'm not NC but I've scaled back from my mother a LOT, and that was very,

> very hard for me. Like you, I got the guilts big time. I felt like something

> bad was going to happen to her if I didn't call her. I also felt bad because

> I wasn't playing my " role " in my family anymore and it confused her and my

> brother, another major character in the play! But I had to tell myself not

> to care. I had to move on, it was overdue for me to move on.

>

> Don't know if you're in therapy, but I have to say that helped me a great

> deal in working it all through and in understanding that I " m not a bad girl

> because I can't or don't want to talk to my mother 6 or 7 times a day, for

> 30 minutes or more every time.

>

> You are doing the right thing for you and your marriage. if you pretended

> your best friend was telling you what you told us below, you would tell her

> not to go back for that kind of treatment, that she's worth more than that.

> And you are. She wants you back on her terms and isn't willing to accept you

> halfway. And what would you be going back to??

>

> I'm so glad you have your own life now.

>

> Fiona

>

>

>

> >

> > I know that we have dealt with guilt our entire lives. My nada is a mean,

> horrible, manipulative person who have brought me up into a world that,

> until the age of 25, been taught to fear. I was told my entire life how fat

> and ugly I was, every dream I had on what I wanted to become was shattered.

> In front of people, my nada was a loving, kind, funny person that everyone

> adored. Behind closed doors, she was a monster. When she would get angry, I

> literally would shake out of fear. I saw her like an oncoming train coming

> at me. Being an only child with a fada that didnt protect me, I was usually

> the target. As a result, I did everything I could to avoid her rage and

> wrath. I did chores at a very young age, liked what tv show, music and food

> she liked, did everything she wanted me to do. I basically didn't have an

> identity until I moved away at 17 and decided what it was like to discover

> my life for myself. From then on, I have found out what a wonderful world it

> really is.

> > I went through hell with my nada after I got married. she did not like my

> husband at all because he wore earrings, wore sandals and shorts all the

> time, had short hair, talked loud, drank beer, soda, water, didn't come over

> enough or came over too much... but basically she didn't like him because he

> wasn't my fada. He had a mind of his own and when my nada would say a

> horrible, nasty comment (like she usually would), he would shut up like me

> and my fada did. He spoke up and told her when it was inappropriate. She

> didn't like that. Everytime we spoke, she had something negative to say

> about him. When my husband's dad suddenly died 2 weeks after our wedding, we

> immediately went into the stages of mourning. We had to help out his mom

> (who was distraught and a zombie, as any woman would be after your husband

> of 30 years suddenly dies). After two weeks of settling things, my nada says

> to me " You guys aren't over it yet? Jeez! You act like he was Jesus or

> something! " what a nice thing to say after someone's dad dies.

> >

> > After ALL of this, I still have tremendous guilt over my decision to go

> NC. I tried....I really did try. I tried to make it work. I tried to go LC

> with my nada, set boundaries with her, tell her we would not talk about my

> husband, that I won't tolerate her yelling at me, that Im not going over her

> house every day/weekend and I don't want drama about it. But nothing worked.

> I sat there and listened to everything nasty she had to say to me and didn't

> yell back because I wanted a relationship with my mom. As a young adult when

> we would argue, she always threatened me with abandonment.. " If I hang up,

> its over between us. " but I always went back. After years of going through

> this, our last fight ended with " Not even on my death bed do I want you

> around me! You're evil! " That was my way out. That was when I walked out the

> door and never looked back.

> >

> > Until now.

> >

> >

> > I have been dealing with horrible guilt and abandonment issues over this

> lately. In my head, I did the right thing. I finally stood up for myself and

> said " Enough! " So why do I feel so guilty? Why do I feel compelled to call

> her and talk to her or to ask her if everything is okay. Has she called me?

> yes, a couple of times. Sometimes I will answer, but mostely it goes

> straight to voice mail. Now she makes my fada call me. Why do I care what a

> person, who basically abused me my entire life, is doing? Why?

> >

> >

> > Any advice??

> >

> > AJ

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Scout, I understand this. Since you were just a 3rd grader,

and living in the toxic environment where a parent kept

encouraging 'death' talk...don't be too hard on yourself

about going on that day. As it turned out, help came.

Nobody expected you to know better...even if you did have

the thought she did it. You could not have realized at

the time what was really going on. Your nada probably

wanted to make you feel guilty anyway...taking the overdose

knowing you'd be up and taking on her responsibilites

of the morning. I had one I know.

I also miss having a family. At one time my family seemed

ok. It wasn't, but I didn't know that for sure. I always

thought things were my fault. All things. As an adult

though, who couldn't have children, I miss having a family.

It is natural and human to nest and reproduce. It is the

urge of centuries of evolution in us...of development into

beings with knowledge and love. All I can do now is

find some other way to make my mark on the world. There

are many kinds of families too...a sense of belonging

and mutual acceptance is necessary for us. NON bp's need

the normal non bp life.

I will keep you in m y thoughts.

babyfoggy

>

> I've been reading a lot about BPD lately and there is this theme it

> seems that when you are in an " unchosen " relationship that you're

> pretty much stuck, I guess because these people are your family and

> most people couldn't be expected to separate from their family. This

> is a source of guilt for me because I don't feel any sort of loss

> from being away from my family-- I grew up with my bpm and 2 brothers,

> both now alcoholics, one mentally ill... and they are all I had, yet

> I don't miss them. That's one thing I'm sure of. I miss having a

> family, but not them particularly.

>

> I was reading in archives about people how eventually they got to

> the point where with the BP relative they were like 'die already' but

> that it took quite awhile. For me, when I was 9, my mom was

> horribly depressed, she was on all kinds of sleeping pills and

> antidepressants and the like (expecting a 'miracle cure' 15 years

> pre-BP diagnosis). All she ever talked about was wanting to die,

> and all I ever thought about was how it would be such a relief to

> be away. Not that I wanted her to die, I just wanted to be able to

> breathe. So one morning I get up for school and she is always

> usually up with me and my brothers... yet she isn't up so I try to

> wake her up, and she's not waking up. And I see all the pill

> bottles and the like, open, knocked over, etc. So part of me

> wonders if maybe she did it. But what do I do? Nothing. I just

> get ready for school, get my brothers up, and we go on about our

> day. It turned out she had overdosed and if not for an unexpected

> visit from a family friend she would have died. And I would have

> let her. I was in 3rd grade. So I still feel like a terrible

> person for that, because I would have just let her die, not out of

> spite even, just because she had been talking about it so much and

> I thought maybe she would be better off.

>

> So anyway... that is just something I have been thinking about when

> I think that there's no way I should ever express what I'm really

> thinking because it makes me seem so cold and heartless. I don't

> feel any sense of love or obligation for any of them, and that feels

> wrong to me. Like I'm just as horrible as they are because I should

> feel more than I do.

>

> Thanks for listening.

>