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Out, Out, Damned Guilt!

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WOW, that is so insightful, I am overwhelmed. I just want to take your words,

the way you suggested describing BPD to my kids, and swallow them so I can spit

them out exactly the same way. I really appreciate your insight. I need to

read this a couple of times more and digest it better before responding more,

but for now, thank you Joy.

> Hi, Gail,

>

> Your daughter is 15, so she is old enough to understand. You may think your

nada hasn't abused your children, but I suspect she has manipulated them plenty.

She may have undermined your relationship with your daughter by demeaning you

and/or blaming you for any problems that have come up in your relationship. If

she had, it would be tough for a 15-year-old to think clearly when her grandnada

says " It's not your fault, Honey, your mother is just ____________ - fill in the

blank (selfish, hateful, crazy.....) " . I just found out that my nada told my

daughter many years ago that she (nada) and I just had different personalities

and that's why we didn't get along, but that my daughter had the same type of

personality as nada so that they WOULD be able to get along. Needless to say, my

daughter was appalled at the very idea. Have you been honest with your kids

about the way nada treats you, or did your nada make you feel guilty (like mine

did) for telling ANYONE about the abuse and making her out to be the monster

(quoted from my nada)? If I were you, I would sit down with my kids and explain

BPD to them in a matter-of-fact manner, without catastrophising it (one of my

favorite made-up words). Maybe something like " Kids, nada has BPD. That means

that she never really grew up on the inside. And she has tantrums when she

doesn't get her way. That's OK when you're 2 - it's NOT OK when you're 72 (or

however old your nada is). When she's having a tantrum, she's very nasty to me

or anyone else who gets in her way. When she acts like that, I have to give her

some space because it's not OK for her to treat me that way. And I never want

you to experience her abuse, either. When nada decides she wants to behave like

an adult, then we'll see her again. But in the meantime, we're going to

concentrate on being a healthy, happy family who treat each other with love and

respect. " I would expect that they'd be on your side, and that's OK, they should

be. Nada would make me feel guilty for telling even my husband about the abuse,

as if I were the one staging smear campaigns like she has. I take that back,

nada can't MAKE me feel anything, guilty or otherwise. I just had such a skewed

sense of fairness that I would take on all the responsibility and guilt for her

bad behavior! Enough about me. Also, I'd make sure to ask the kids how they feel

about going NC and address their concerns. They may feel sorry for " poor waify

grandnada " as normal, healthy kids would, however misplaced their sympathies may

be. At the age of 9, my son would go out of his way to lose at board games with

my nada after my fada had passed because he couldn't stand to see her lose. You

seem like a wonderful mom who is willing to sacrifice herself rather than have

her child miss out on anything, and that is commendable. But be sure to take a

good look at what you think your child is missing. Not everything a child wants

is the best thing for him/her. And if your friend doesn't have a nada of her

own, I don't know that I'd trust her judgement on this one. If you feel you have

to go NC to protect yourself, how much more do you need to do that to protect

your kids? Just keep the lines of communication open with them and let them see

your good heart.

>

> Joy

>

>

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >> I'm sort of a " newbie " here, and I've learned so much from

reading all

> > > > > > of your posts. I've even responded to a few posts as well. Right

now,

> > > > > though

> > > > > > I think I'm beginning to feel a little like " info overload " . I've

read so

> > > > > > many books on BPD, including SWOE, and Understanding the Borderline

> > > > > Mother.

> > > > > > Plus, I've been in therapy ever since my nada's suicide attempt last

> > > > > > November. At my last visit with my T, she noticed by reading my body

> > > > > > language that I seemed to be " exhausted " . I told her that I was

feeling

> > > > > > exhausted and " burned out " . I think it's because I have been working

so

> > > > > hard

> > > > > > at trying to maintain a " healthy " relationship with nada ( " healthy "

for

> > > > > me

> > > > > > at least). Nada has no idea how hard it has been for me, and even if

she

> > > > > did

> > > > > > know, she would not care, since she is incapable of seeing beyond

her own

> > > > > > selfish needs. The past 4 months, since her suicide attempt, have

been

> > > > > one

> > > > > > power struggle after another. I have set new boundaries and enforced

old

> > > > > > ones, while she has kicked and screamed all the way. She has

respected

> > > > > some

> > > > > > boundaries, but has blatantly disregarded others. I still have a LOT

of

> > > > > > unresolved anger, and I can't even stand to be in the same room with

her

> > > > > for

> > > > > > very long. It takes all of the emotional energy I can muster just to

stay

> > > > > > calm and not take the bait when she tries to antagonize me into a

fight

> > > > > so

> > > > > > she can play the victim.

> > > > > > >>

> > > > > > >> Anyway, my T thinks I need a break. Although I have been in LC

with

> > > > > her

> > > > > > for a while, she thinks I maybe need to ramp it up to extreme LC, or

even

> > > > > NC

> > > > > > for a period of time just to give myself a *mental time-out*, so to

> > > > > speak. I

> > > > > > totally agree with her, and so does my DH. The problem is, that it's

not

> > > > > > that easy, since nada lives about 10 min. from us. There is also the

> > > > > issue

> > > > > > of our 6 y/o daughter. Nada feels that it is her God-given right to

see

> > > > > " her

> > > > > > grandaughter " anytime and as often as she wants - and she has let me

know

> > > > > > that in no uncertain terms.

> > > > > > >>

> > > > > > >> I am NOT trying to keep my daughter from seeing her, but I know

that

> > > > > it

> > > > > > seems that way to nada. I feel so guilty about it. I mean, just

because I

> > > > > > can't stand to be around nada right now, my daughter lives with me,

and

> > > > > so

> > > > > > in a way, I am indirectly keeping her from seeing her " nana " . My

daughter

> > > > > > loves her " nana " , and I really do want for them to have a

relationship.

> > > > > > However, as my T put it, " if she is too toxic for you to be around,

then

> > > > > she

> > > > > > is too toxic to be around your daughter. " Intellectually, I know

this is

> > > > > > true, but emotionally, I feel like I'm being the selfish bitch.

> > > > > > >>

> > > > > > >> I'm agonizing over this. I have been ignoring nada's calls - I

just

> > > > > let

> > > > > > them go to voicemail. Whenever she calls, she makes it a point to

let me

> > > > > > know that she is not interested in seeing me or DH, because she says

> > > > > things

> > > > > > like, " I'd like to come over and see MY grandaughter " . UGH! As if my

> > > > > > daughter is just some object that I'm withholding from her. I don't

know

> > > > > how

> > > > > > much longer I can keep ignoring her calls before she just plows over

my

> > > > > > boundaries and shows up on my doorstep unannounced. She will NOT

tolerate

> > > > > > being ignored or feeling like she is being shut-out for very long.

> > > > > > >>

> > > > > > >> I'd be very interested to know how other parents have handled

> > > > > situations

> > > > > > with the " GRANDNADA " . Suggestions anyone??

> > > > > > >>

> > > > > > >>

> > > > > > >>

> > > > > > >>

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

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i DON'T GET IT NOW that i've seen the light that they think it's funny?!!! And

how come the extreme behaviour of all these BPs does not get noticed by the

outside world? and how come ( for it surely MUST get noticed by sane people)

no-one ever hardly ever intervenes to save us??????

Funny indeed!

Maybe there is a special place in purgatory for BPs to make up for our lives

having started out as a living purgatory.

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Hey Joy you are a genius!

Thanks so much for the following quote - I have been struggling with HOW to

explain Nadas behaviour to my 9 yr old - your words are just bang on the money!

:-)

" Kids, nada has BPD. That means that she never really grew up on the inside. And

she has tantrums when she doesn't get her way. That's OK when you're 2 - it's

NOT OK when you're 72 (or however old your nada is). When she's having a

tantrum, she's very nasty to me or anyone else who gets in her way. When she

acts like that, I have to give her some space because it's not OK for her to

treat me that way. And I never want

you to experience her abuse, either. When nada decides she wants to behave like

an adult, then we'll see her again. But in the meantime, we're going to

concentrate on being a healthy, happy family who treat each other with love and

respect. "

BIG RESPECT to you from

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I think that if there is an afterlife we KOs get to bypass purgatory altogether

and go directly to a nice place; we've already been to purgatory.

-Annie

>

> i DON'T GET IT NOW that i've seen the light that they think it's funny?!!! And

how come the extreme behaviour of all these BPs does not get noticed by the

outside world? and how come ( for it surely MUST get noticed by sane people)

no-one ever hardly ever intervenes to save us??????

> Funny indeed!

>

> Maybe there is a special place in purgatory for BPs to make up for our lives

having started out as a living purgatory.

>

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I heartily second this advice, as the mom of a grown daughter who told me things

as an adult that her grandmother said and did when she was staying with her that

made me cry.

I would never have left her with Nada - even with my dear dad there - had I

known then what I know now.

Good advice.

Sent from my blueberry.

On Mar 16, 2011, at 10:49 AM, " crazydoggroomer "

wrote:

> So, here is my advice based on my own experience. I grew up thinking the abuse

I suffered was, at least to a large extent, my fault (gee, I wonder where that

thought came from), and that nada and I had a personality clash. Surely, she

would be different with my children, with me and my personality removed from the

situation. But, NO. The abuse wasn't as severe with them, partly because they

weren't around her daily as we live an hour away. But it h appened and became

worse as they grew up and she couldn't control them as easily. And their stories

didn't come out until they were grown-ups. My daughter (the oldest) simply

refused to stay at nada's after she was about 11, but wouldn't tell me why, just

that she didn't want to go. I think I insisted that they go to spend the weekend

with nada after my fada died just one time, and that was because my husband and

I hadn't had a child-free day since we'd been married - my m-i-l worked and

wasn't interested in having her grandchildren around that much.

>

> So, be very, very careful about how much time your children spend with your

nadas, expecially unsupervised. The truth about those visits may not come out

for a long time, and it won't be pretty. I wish I had been wiser, I wish I knew

then what I know now. I was 46 and my children were grown by the time I found

out what BPD was. As a matter of fact, it was my daughter, who has a degree is

psychology, who introduced me to this horrible, devastating mental illness. By

the grace of God, none of us has inherited it, and I'm not a perfect parent but

the abuse stopped with me.

>

> I maintain contact with my nada, on my terms, because there is no one else. My

children only visit her WITH my husband and me, and I only visit nada with

someone else along - safety in numbers. I don't put up with ANY abuse from her,

and it took several years for her to resign herself to the fact that I would

hang up or leave if she even tried it. It does the abuser no earthly good to let

them keep abusing, and it does us immeasurable harm to keep taking it. And it

does our children just as much harm watching us be abused. So, for the sake of

your children if not for yourselves, stand up, say " I'm not gonna take it

anymore " , and act the way you hope your kids will act when they are adults.

There's a reason people say " More is caught than taught. " Set a good example, be

honest with your children about nada's problem, as much as they are able to

understand at their ages, love them enough to do what you know is best for them!

Quit worrying about wheth er your kids will resent you - they will! At least

when they are teenagers. Wouldn't you rather have them resent you for doing the

right things for them? But, if you love them with all your heart (and I know you

do), they'll see that and they'll outgrow adolesence, and they'll understand and

appreciate the fact that you did what was best, even when it was hard and made

you look like the bad guy.

>

> Sorry this is so long, but I hope it helps to have someone here who has lived

through it to give you the perspective from the other side.

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