Therapy with Nada?

[Guest guest]

Ok, all. I need a little advice/encouragement. I have been estranged from Nada

since July now. Things got to such a bad place that I told her the only

communication I was willing to have with her for a good long while was in a T's

office. She's given me every excuse in the book over the past several months as

to why we can't go to therapy- she doesn't feel safe, her therapist says it's a

bad idea, I'm just going to go in there and lie and hurt her reputation, etc,

etc, etc...

So, it's possible that she may be coming around, probably because my wedding is

coming up in less than 2 months and she's " dishonored " and humiliated because

she was not sent an invitation. So, what she's proposing now is that I go see

her T alone for a session so the T can decide if she's a good fit to be our

joint T. Ideally, yes, I'd like to go and see a neutral T, but if this is the

only way I can get her into therapy, then I may just have to take it. Judging by

some of the things Nada is claiming that her T has said, however, I'm a little

nervous about how good the T really is. Of course, I've seen first hand that

Nada is a master at lying, so it's quite possible she's lying to me, lying to

the T, distorted everything she's hearing in therapy, or a combo of all three.

So, I'm a little scared. I'm afraid I'm going to go and see this T and not even

have a fighting chance for her to understand my story as she's been talking with

nada for a few months now. There's still that little seed in my soul of doubt

that nags at me. What if it IS me? What if the things Nada says about me are

right? I know on an intellectual level that her behvior is beyond nuts, but that

feeling of doubt is so dang hard to extinguish! So, am I making a mistake to

agree to see nada's T without pushing for a neutral T for us to see??

Thanks in advance for the wisdom! :-)

[Guest guest]

I really feel for you. My gut impression: its not you its her. Her T is the T of

an N therefore chances are good the T is not good. Meaning if the N continues

its cause she's being enabled not challenged to improve. Sounds like your mother

wants to win a power game against you. Good luck!

----------

Please excuse any typos or terseness, this message was sent from a mobile

device.

Therapy with Nada?

Ok, all. I need a little advice/encouragement. I have been estranged from Nada

since July now. Things got to such a bad place that I told her the only

communication I was willing to have with her for a good long while was in a T's

office. She's given me every excuse in the book over the past several months as

to why we can't go to therapy- she doesn't feel safe, her therapist says it's a

bad idea, I'm just going to go in there and lie and hurt her reputation, etc,

etc, etc...

So, it's possible that she may be coming around, probably because my wedding is

coming up in less than 2 months and she's " dishonored " and humiliated because

she was not sent an invitation. So, what she's proposing now is that I go see

her T alone for a session so the T can decide if she's a good fit to be our

joint T. Ideally, yes, I'd like to go and see a neutral T, but if this is the

only way I can get her into therapy, then I may just have to take it. Judging by

some of the things Nada is claiming that her T has said, however, I'm a little

nervous about how good the T really is. Of course, I've seen first hand that

Nada is a master at lying, so it's quite possible she's lying to me, lying to

the T, distorted everything she's hearing in therapy, or a combo of all three.

So, I'm a little scared. I'm afraid I'm going to go and see this T and not even

have a fighting chance for her to understand my story as she's been talking with

nada for a few months now. There's still that little seed in my soul of doubt

that nags at me. What if it IS me? What if the things Nada says about me are

right? I know on an intellectual level that her behvior is beyond nuts, but that

feeling of doubt is so dang hard to extinguish! So, am I making a mistake to

agree to see nada's T without pushing for a neutral T for us to see??

Thanks in advance for the wisdom! :-)

[Guest guest]

If it were me I would insist on a neutral T. I tried to get numerous

" trained " authority figures involved as a teenager and nada always managed

to make me look like the one misbehaving. I figure that if she could

convince a police officer, the school counsellor, principal, and a

psychologist that she was a good mother and I was a bad seed that she could

have convinced her T who she has been alone with for numerous hours that I

lie, cheat, ect (nada never saw a T but I added that part as an example)

Just my opinion based on my situation, though

BB

[Guest guest]

I'd be pretty curious to meet her T. And I also would be willing to bet that

if you call her bluff and say sure, what's your T's phone number your nada

will back out of it.

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Beatrice Benedick <

motherlessmommy@...> wrote:

>

>

> If it were me I would insist on a neutral T. I tried to get numerous

> " trained " authority figures involved as a teenager and nada always managed

> to make me look like the one misbehaving. I figure that if she could

> convince a police officer, the school counsellor, principal, and a

> psychologist that she was a good mother and I was a bad seed that she could

> have convinced her T who she has been alone with for numerous hours that I

> lie, cheat, ect (nada never saw a T but I added that part as an example)

>

> Just my opinion based on my situation, though

>

> BB

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, this really is a power struggle between you and your nada, seems to me.

She is very good at *appearing* to be cooperative while still calling all the

shots.

I don't think any of the choices and options you've described are very

palatable, so, its just a matter of picking the least odious option.

What option will result in the least damage *to you?*

-Annie

>

> Ok, all. I need a little advice/encouragement. I have been estranged from Nada

since July now. Things got to such a bad place that I told her the only

communication I was willing to have with her for a good long while was in a T's

office. She's given me every excuse in the book over the past several months as

to why we can't go to therapy- she doesn't feel safe, her therapist says it's a

bad idea, I'm just going to go in there and lie and hurt her reputation, etc,

etc, etc...

>

> So, it's possible that she may be coming around, probably because my wedding

is coming up in less than 2 months and she's " dishonored " and humiliated because

she was not sent an invitation. So, what she's proposing now is that I go see

her T alone for a session so the T can decide if she's a good fit to be our

joint T. Ideally, yes, I'd like to go and see a neutral T, but if this is the

only way I can get her into therapy, then I may just have to take it. Judging by

some of the things Nada is claiming that her T has said, however, I'm a little

nervous about how good the T really is. Of course, I've seen first hand that

Nada is a master at lying, so it's quite possible she's lying to me, lying to

the T, distorted everything she's hearing in therapy, or a combo of all three.

>

> So, I'm a little scared. I'm afraid I'm going to go and see this T and not

even have a fighting chance for her to understand my story as she's been talking

with nada for a few months now. There's still that little seed in my soul of

doubt that nags at me. What if it IS me? What if the things Nada says about me

are right? I know on an intellectual level that her behvior is beyond nuts, but

that feeling of doubt is so dang hard to extinguish! So, am I making a mistake

to agree to see nada's T without pushing for a neutral T for us to see??

>

> Thanks in advance for the wisdom! :-)

>

[Guest guest]

My advice? Be veeerrrryyy careful.

I once sat in therapy with a BPD/NPD. The BPD was so incredibly adept at lying,

shifting blame, and otherwise making himself the victim . . . the T was just one

more tool he used to attack and destroy me. That T was putty in the NP's hands,

and became--with the best of intentions--one of the most powerful weapons used

to destroy my sense of self. Can you imagine? All of that crazy-making done

through the authority of an " objective " professional!

The thing I learned from that situation is how easy it was to " con " a good

therapist. While I'm a firm believer in therapy (it saved my life) I learned

that most therapists are extremely easy to manipulate. They intuitively want

everyone to be okay, and will only confront someone on bad behavior until that

person is ready to receive it--and usually gently when that moment comes. That,

sadly, is a situation ripe for a BPD's manipulation. Where will all that

negativity about the dysfunction go if the T can't put it where it belongs?

That's right. You. Because you've been trained from birth to take it, and the

T won't know any better. The T has been set up to receive you as the problem,

and will go with that assumption. Leaving you on the defensive . . . which only

will help the T know how " guilty " you are.

No matter what, Nada would not could not have you go to this therapist if she

had any conviction about the T being objective. To her, " objective " means " in

complete agreement with her. "

The moment the T is REALLY objective is the moment nada gets confronted about

her abusive behavior and lying. She's not going to let that happen. She can't

let that happen if she's going to continue her charade of being perfect to

everyone.

So . . . my take is that she's laid a trap for you. At a time when you need it

the least.

And imagine how much she will use this if/when the T turns on you and becomes

one of nada's flying monkeys? " I did what she told me--I went to therapy with a

trained professional. But my daughter so messed up that even the T couldn't get

through to her. My daughter is the insane one--my T said so. And I have proof

because my daughter wouldn't continue, even though I was willing to work things

out. "

Dang I hope this isn't too cynical. I'm just seeing some major red flags and

traps. Again, if nada really believed this T had the capacity to confront HER

(the real issue, BTW) she would never suggest you sit down with the two of them.

One question to ask, if I may, even if you get an " objective " T. What are your

goals here? To change her? To have her finally " get " it? To have her be

cured? To get her to act consistently? To stop her abuse?

Sadly, there is very little therapy can do for a BPD, unless they submit to it

for many years. According to Randi's CDs on divorcing a BPD, it takes three

years of intense therapy before you see ANY change.

Just be careful, my friend. I'm sure you have better things to do with your

time than to jump into nada's quagmire. No matter what you decide, be careful.

Blessings,

Karla

>

> Ok, all. I need a little advice/encouragement. I have been estranged from Nada

since July now. Things got to such a bad place that I told her the only

communication I was willing to have with her for a good long while was in a T's

office. She's given me every excuse in the book over the past several months as

to why we can't go to therapy- she doesn't feel safe, her therapist says it's a

bad idea, I'm just going to go in there and lie and hurt her reputation, etc,

etc, etc...

>

> So, it's possible that she may be coming around, probably because my wedding

is coming up in less than 2 months and she's " dishonored " and humiliated because

she was not sent an invitation. So, what she's proposing now is that I go see

her T alone for a session so the T can decide if she's a good fit to be our

joint T. Ideally, yes, I'd like to go and see a neutral T, but if this is the

only way I can get her into therapy, then I may just have to take it. Judging by

some of the things Nada is claiming that her T has said, however, I'm a little

nervous about how good the T really is. Of course, I've seen first hand that

Nada is a master at lying, so it's quite possible she's lying to me, lying to

the T, distorted everything she's hearing in therapy, or a combo of all three.

>

> So, I'm a little scared. I'm afraid I'm going to go and see this T and not

even have a fighting chance for her to understand my story as she's been talking

with nada for a few months now. There's still that little seed in my soul of

doubt that nags at me. What if it IS me? What if the things Nada says about me

are right? I know on an intellectual level that her behvior is beyond nuts, but

that feeling of doubt is so dang hard to extinguish! So, am I making a mistake

to agree to see nada's T without pushing for a neutral T for us to see??

>

> Thanks in advance for the wisdom! :-)

>

[Guest guest]

Karla,

Thank you so much for your thoughts. You just did what I haven't been able to-

spell out what I am so afraid of with this situation. I am afraid that no matter

what I say or do that this T is already wrapped around Nada's finger. However,

my nada doesn't have the quite the polished persona that so many BPDs have (in

my opinion). When she gets angry, it is very difficult for her to control her

rage, even when an outsider is around. Undoubtedly, the things I will say in

therapy will wake the dragon since all of my perceptions of how things have gone

down have been " lies. " The deal that is on the table currently is for me to see

her T ALONE for the first time, which I feel like might be my only hope to get

vital information to the T that nada would forbid and be unable to hear. I think

I'll tell this T from the get go that if she feels the relationship she has with

nada may make her unobjective in therapy with the both of us, that she should

let nada know that and we should find someone else. I'm also going to suggest

that her T call my T to get perspective on the work she's done with me. Now, I

know this will send nada into a fit of rage. She's already made it clear that

she doesn't want her T to talk to my T about our therapy, because my T has been

in may life off and on over the years and has too much background. Well, she

never said anything about my T just telling her about MY therapy work.

Technicalities...

Why am I doing all of this? That's a very good question... Part of my fire is

because I miss my niece and nephew terribly. AFter nada and I had our final blow

out last July and I had to get a lawyer involved to protect myself, my sister

will have nothing to do with me and refuses to let me see the kids. I keep

thinking that MAYBE if I can just formulate a distant cordial relationship with

them that I will be given back visitation rights. The realistic part of me,

however, knows nada will never agree to that- it's all or nothing- either I have

complete control over you or forget it! Another reason is I keep hoping deep

down something can change. I lost my dad over 2 years ago, which was incredibly

hard, but now having been cut off from my entire family because of this

situation has been next to unbearable. I keep wanting to fix. I keep wanting to

have a relationship with her that is healthy. I know these fantasies are like

unicorns and lepracauns, but I guess I haven't hit the wall completely yet. I'm

getting there, however....

>

> My advice? Be veeerrrryyy careful.

>

> I once sat in therapy with a BPD/NPD. The BPD was so incredibly adept at

lying, shifting blame, and otherwise making himself the victim . . . the T was

just one more tool he used to attack and destroy me. That T was putty in the

NP's hands, and became--with the best of intentions--one of the most powerful

weapons used to destroy my sense of self. Can you imagine? All of that

crazy-making done through the authority of an " objective " professional!

>

> The thing I learned from that situation is how easy it was to " con " a good

therapist. While I'm a firm believer in therapy (it saved my life) I learned

that most therapists are extremely easy to manipulate. They intuitively want

everyone to be okay, and will only confront someone on bad behavior until that

person is ready to receive it--and usually gently when that moment comes. That,

sadly, is a situation ripe for a BPD's manipulation. Where will all that

negativity about the dysfunction go if the T can't put it where it belongs?

That's right. You. Because you've been trained from birth to take it, and the

T won't know any better. The T has been set up to receive you as the problem,

and will go with that assumption. Leaving you on the defensive . . . which only

will help the T know how " guilty " you are.

>

> No matter what, Nada would not could not have you go to this therapist if she

had any conviction about the T being objective. To her, " objective " means " in

complete agreement with her. "

>

> The moment the T is REALLY objective is the moment nada gets confronted about

her abusive behavior and lying. She's not going to let that happen. She can't

let that happen if she's going to continue her charade of being perfect to

everyone.

>

> So . . . my take is that she's laid a trap for you. At a time when you need

it the least.

>

> And imagine how much she will use this if/when the T turns on you and becomes

one of nada's flying monkeys? " I did what she told me--I went to therapy with a

trained professional. But my daughter so messed up that even the T couldn't get

through to her. My daughter is the insane one--my T said so. And I have proof

because my daughter wouldn't continue, even though I was willing to work things

out. "

>

> Dang I hope this isn't too cynical. I'm just seeing some major red flags and

traps. Again, if nada really believed this T had the capacity to confront HER

(the real issue, BTW) she would never suggest you sit down with the two of them.

>

> One question to ask, if I may, even if you get an " objective " T. What are

your goals here? To change her? To have her finally " get " it? To have her be

cured? To get her to act consistently? To stop her abuse?

>

> Sadly, there is very little therapy can do for a BPD, unless they submit to it

for many years. According to Randi's CDs on divorcing a BPD, it takes three

years of intense therapy before you see ANY change.

>

> Just be careful, my friend. I'm sure you have better things to do with your

time than to jump into nada's quagmire. No matter what you decide, be careful.

>

> Blessings,

> Karla

[Guest guest]

Hi

You sounds very nice. Try until you're done trying and you have satified

yourself. Some more thoughts: seems like you're trying to win your mothers

powergame. Possible but unlikely. Maybe you're hoping your mother will be

convinced that you're right and that she'll love you finally. Unlikely. About

your niece and nephew. Good luck with that but if your sister is part of your

mothers powergame package? How could that be overcome? Wish I knew. Feel

sympathy for you!

----------

Please excuse any typos or terseness, this message was sent from a mobile

device.

Re: Therapy with Nada?

Karla,

Thank you so much for your thoughts. You just did what I haven't been able to-

spell out what I am so afraid of with this situation. I am afraid that no matter

what I say or do that this T is already wrapped around Nada's finger. However,

my nada doesn't have the quite the polished persona that so many BPDs have (in

my opinion). When she gets angry, it is very difficult for her to control her

rage, even when an outsider is around. Undoubtedly, the things I will say in

therapy will wake the dragon since all of my perceptions of how things have gone

down have been " lies. " The deal that is on the table currently is for me to see

her T ALONE for the first time, which I feel like might be my only hope to get

vital information to the T that nada would forbid and be unable to hear. I think

I'll tell this T from the get go that if she feels the relationship she has with

nada may make her unobjective in therapy with the both of us, that she should

let nada know that and we should find someone else. I'm also going to suggest

that her T call my T to get perspective on the work she's done with me. Now, I

know this will send nada into a fit of rage. She's already made it clear that

she doesn't want her T to talk to my T about our therapy, because my T has been

in may life off and on over the years and has too much background. Well, she

never said anything about my T just telling her about MY therapy work.

Technicalities...

Why am I doing all of this? That's a very good question... Part of my fire is

because I miss my niece and nephew terribly. AFter nada and I had our final blow

out last July and I had to get a lawyer involved to protect myself, my sister

will have nothing to do with me and refuses to let me see the kids. I keep

thinking that MAYBE if I can just formulate a distant cordial relationship with

them that I will be given back visitation rights. The realistic part of me,

however, knows nada will never agree to that- it's all or nothing- either I have

complete control over you or forget it! Another reason is I keep hoping deep

down something can change. I lost my dad over 2 years ago, which was incredibly

hard, but now having been cut off from my entire family because of this

situation has been next to unbearable. I keep wanting to fix. I keep wanting to

have a relationship with her that is healthy. I know these fantasies are like

unicorns and lepracauns, but I guess I haven't hit the wall completely yet. I'm

getting there, however....

>

> My advice? Be veeerrrryyy careful.

>

> I once sat in therapy with a BPD/NPD. The BPD was so incredibly adept at

lying, shifting blame, and otherwise making himself the victim . . . the T was

just one more tool he used to attack and destroy me. That T was putty in the

NP's hands, and became--with the best of intentions--one of the most powerful

weapons used to destroy my sense of self. Can you imagine? All of that

crazy-making done through the authority of an " objective " professional!

>

> The thing I learned from that situation is how easy it was to " con " a good

therapist. While I'm a firm believer in therapy (it saved my life) I learned

that most therapists are extremely easy to manipulate. They intuitively want

everyone to be okay, and will only confront someone on bad behavior until that

person is ready to receive it--and usually gently when that moment comes. That,

sadly, is a situation ripe for a BPD's manipulation. Where will all that

negativity about the dysfunction go if the T can't put it where it belongs?

That's right. You. Because you've been trained from birth to take it, and the

T won't know any better. The T has been set up to receive you as the problem,

and will go with that assumption. Leaving you on the defensive . . . which only

will help the T know how " guilty " you are.

>

> No matter what, Nada would not could not have you go to this therapist if she

had any conviction about the T being objective. To her, " objective " means " in

complete agreement with her. "

>

> The moment the T is REALLY objective is the moment nada gets confronted about

her abusive behavior and lying. She's not going to let that happen. She can't

let that happen if she's going to continue her charade of being perfect to

everyone.

>

> So . . . my take is that she's laid a trap for you. At a time when you need

it the least.

>

> And imagine how much she will use this if/when the T turns on you and becomes

one of nada's flying monkeys? " I did what she told me--I went to therapy with a

trained professional. But my daughter so messed up that even the T couldn't get

through to her. My daughter is the insane one--my T said so. And I have proof

because my daughter wouldn't continue, even though I was willing to work things

out. "

>

> Dang I hope this isn't too cynical. I'm just seeing some major red flags and

traps. Again, if nada really believed this T had the capacity to confront HER

(the real issue, BTW) she would never suggest you sit down with the two of them.

>

> One question to ask, if I may, even if you get an " objective " T. What are

your goals here? To change her? To have her finally " get " it? To have her be

cured? To get her to act consistently? To stop her abuse?

>

> Sadly, there is very little therapy can do for a BPD, unless they submit to it

for many years. According to Randi's CDs on divorcing a BPD, it takes three

years of intense therapy before you see ANY change.

>

> Just be careful, my friend. I'm sure you have better things to do with your

time than to jump into nada's quagmire. No matter what you decide, be careful.

>

> Blessings,

> Karla

[Guest guest]

Initial responce without finishing hyour post is OH HELL NO!

Now, I ll actually read it and post comments and advice as I go.

.. She's given me every excuse in the book over the past several months

as to why we can't go to therapy- she doesn't feel safe, her therapist

says it's a bad idea, I'm just going to go in there and lie and hurt her

reputation, etc, etc, etc...

Ok, first of all. NEVER believe what nada says a T, or Dr. , or anyone

else says is good or bad or right, unless you hear it direclty. They

gaslight, they lie. Tell her to have the T call you and you ll have a

private conversation with them, but that part of the deal is she MUST

give the T permission to discuss her with you. 100 to 1 she backs off.

Equal odds the T never said it was a bad idea, or that you were coming

to assault her. They make things up.

If that call ever takes place, which I do doubt, first thing out of your

mouth should be " Now you DO realize that my mother has Borderline

Personality Disorder.? "

If the T has been seeing her and has NOT figured that out, then we are

back to OH HELL NO!

>

> So, it's possible that she may be coming around, probably because my

wedding is coming up in less than 2 months and she's " dishonored " and

humiliated because she was not sent an invitation. So, what she's

proposing now is that I go see her T alone for a session so the T can

decide if she's a good fit to be our joint T. Ideally, yes, I'd like to

go and see a neutral T, but if this is the only way I can get her into

therapy, then I may just have to take it. Judging by some of the things

Nada is claiming that her T has said, however, I'm a little nervous

about how good the T really is. Of course, I've seen first hand that

Nada is a master at lying, so it's quite possible she's lying to me,

lying to the T, distorted everything she's hearing in therapy, or a

combo of all three.

Doesnt sound like she s coming around to me, sounds like she s trying

to manipulate you, again. First of all, don t do anything to " try to

get her into therapy " . That is the little KO kid, trying to fix crazy

mom again. If she goes to T to get well, great. But you don t do stuff

to try to get her to, just set boundaries if she doesnt.

Again, NEVER ever trust what nada says a health care professional says,

whether a T or a Dr. They will ruthlessly gaslight to make everything

sound best for them, or them to be the victim. Ask any of the old

timers on here. According to nada, her T always says she is fine,

they don t know why they are wasting thier money, and it is all the

fault of the crazy mean family.

Some T do get fooled for a time by a BP. I would absolutely NOT agree

to go without a phone conversation first, and an assurance that the T

knows she is BP, and understands what that means.

If you do go, let me stress, ABSOLUTELY, UNEQUIVOCALLY, DO NOT NOT

NOT NOT make this T your " Joint therapist. " The deal is this. This T

is your nada s T. You may agree to go to participate in family therapy

sessions, in order for the T to help your nada by dealing with the

family dynamic. This does NOT mean she is your T. If you need or

desire therapy, then choose one who suits you. You can agree with your

nada that you both give the 2 T s permission to staff, or discuss, the

2 of you to better help each of you. But if she is still saying to you

and to the T that you are going to go in there and lie about her, what

she means is, I m not about to let you and my T get together and compare

notes on what I m saying to the other, and confront my delusions.

Also, for her to say let the T be both your T, implies that you are the

sick one , not her.

>

> So, I'm a little scared. I'm afraid I'm going to go and see this T and

not even have a fighting chance for her to understand my story as she's

been talking with nada for a few months now. There's still that little

seed in my soul of doubt that nags at me. What if it IS me?

FOG ALERT FOG ALERT!!!

Fear Obligation Guilt. Nada s are so good at manipulating you with this.

It is NOT you. Your mom has BPD. Nothing you can say or do with her is

right, or will give you a win, or will stop her crazy behaviours.

Nothing you can do or say with her will not be turned to somehow your

fault. It is not.

You listening? It is NOT YOUR FAULT.

It infuriates me how BP s do that crap to us. I know that some T s do

end up fooled for a while and play the blame game with families. It

would be great if you could go see a T with nada and the rest of the

family for a true family therapy session.

What if the things Nada says about me are right? I know on an

intellectual level that her behvior is beyond nuts, but that feeling of

doubt is so dang hard to extinguish! So, am I making a mistake to agree

to see nada's T without pushing for a neutral T for us to see??

>

> Thanks in advance for the wisdom! :-)

Summary

Don t agree to see her T along or with her without a phone call from the

T first, with nada giving the T permission to discuss her with you, and

hearing from the T that she does understand that Mom is a BP.

Do NOT let her T become yours. If you agree to anything, it is to

participate in family T sessions to help the T in helping your mom. If

you want to see a T, find one yourself and start sessions. Alternately,

see a T first, and let YOUR T speak to mom s T with both T s having

persmission from you and nada to discuss, and then set up a family

session.

A family T session can be good, it can be a start of healing. But I

must caution you this: One session is not likely to bring about huge

changes. If you are not inviting nada to a wedding because you fear her

behaviors will be such as to ruin the day, a month of T is not going to

change that.

If nada is trying to use T sessions as an excuse to get her way, it is

manipulation. Another good question to ask the T, is do you think my

mom is at a point in T where a family session will be beneficial? Tell

the T you are not interested in going just to play games and have nada

try to get to come to the wedding when no real change has taken place.

Make it clear that based on a lifetime , you don t trust her, you don t

trust her words, and you feel everything is an attempt to manipulate.

Doug

[Guest guest]

LIKE

As always, I like Doug's post.

>

>

>

> Initial responce without finishing hyour post is OH HELL NO!

>

> Now, I ll actually read it and post comments and advice as I go.

>

>

> . She's given me every excuse in the book over the past several months

> as to why we can't go to therapy- she doesn't feel safe, her therapist

> says it's a bad idea, I'm just going to go in there and lie and hurt her

> reputation, etc, etc, etc...

>

> Ok, first of all. NEVER believe what nada says a T, or Dr. , or anyone

> else says is good or bad or right, unless you hear it direclty. They

> gaslight, they lie. Tell her to have the T call you and you ll have a

> private conversation with them, but that part of the deal is she MUST

> give the T permission to discuss her with you. 100 to 1 she backs off.

> Equal odds the T never said it was a bad idea, or that you were coming

> to assault her. They make things up.

>

> If that call ever takes place, which I do doubt, first thing out of your

> mouth should be " Now you DO realize that my mother has Borderline

> Personality Disorder.? "

>

> If the T has been seeing her and has NOT figured that out, then we are

> back to OH HELL NO!

>

>

> >

> > So, it's possible that she may be coming around, probably because my

> wedding is coming up in less than 2 months and she's " dishonored " and

> humiliated because she was not sent an invitation. So, what she's

> proposing now is that I go see her T alone for a session so the T can

> decide if she's a good fit to be our joint T. Ideally, yes, I'd like to

> go and see a neutral T, but if this is the only way I can get her into

> therapy, then I may just have to take it. Judging by some of the things

> Nada is claiming that her T has said, however, I'm a little nervous

> about how good the T really is. Of course, I've seen first hand that

> Nada is a master at lying, so it's quite possible she's lying to me,

> lying to the T, distorted everything she's hearing in therapy, or a

> combo of all three.

>

> Doesnt sound like she s coming around to me, sounds like she s trying

> to manipulate you, again. First of all, don t do anything to " try to

> get her into therapy " . That is the little KO kid, trying to fix crazy

> mom again. If she goes to T to get well, great. But you don t do stuff

> to try to get her to, just set boundaries if she doesnt.

>

> Again, NEVER ever trust what nada says a health care professional says,

> whether a T or a Dr. They will ruthlessly gaslight to make everything

> sound best for them, or them to be the victim. Ask any of the old

> timers on here. According to nada, her T always says she is fine,

> they don t know why they are wasting thier money, and it is all the

> fault of the crazy mean family.

>

> Some T do get fooled for a time by a BP. I would absolutely NOT agree

> to go without a phone conversation first, and an assurance that the T

> knows she is BP, and understands what that means.

>

> If you do go, let me stress, ABSOLUTELY, UNEQUIVOCALLY, DO NOT NOT

> NOT NOT make this T your " Joint therapist. " The deal is this. This T

> is your nada s T. You may agree to go to participate in family therapy

> sessions, in order for the T to help your nada by dealing with the

> family dynamic. This does NOT mean she is your T. If you need or

> desire therapy, then choose one who suits you. You can agree with your

> nada that you both give the 2 T s permission to staff, or discuss, the

> 2 of you to better help each of you. But if she is still saying to you

> and to the T that you are going to go in there and lie about her, what

> she means is, I m not about to let you and my T get together and compare

> notes on what I m saying to the other, and confront my delusions.

>

> Also, for her to say let the T be both your T, implies that you are the

> sick one , not her.

>

> >

> > So, I'm a little scared. I'm afraid I'm going to go and see this T and

> not even have a fighting chance for her to understand my story as she's

> been talking with nada for a few months now. There's still that little

> seed in my soul of doubt that nags at me. What if it IS me?

>

> FOG ALERT FOG ALERT!!!

>

> Fear Obligation Guilt. Nada s are so good at manipulating you with this.

> It is NOT you. Your mom has BPD. Nothing you can say or do with her is

> right, or will give you a win, or will stop her crazy behaviours.

> Nothing you can do or say with her will not be turned to somehow your

> fault. It is not.

>

> You listening? It is NOT YOUR FAULT.

>

> It infuriates me how BP s do that crap to us. I know that some T s do

> end up fooled for a while and play the blame game with families. It

> would be great if you could go see a T with nada and the rest of the

> family for a true family therapy session.

>

>

> What if the things Nada says about me are right? I know on an

> intellectual level that her behvior is beyond nuts, but that feeling of

> doubt is so dang hard to extinguish! So, am I making a mistake to agree

> to see nada's T without pushing for a neutral T for us to see??

> >

> > Thanks in advance for the wisdom! :-)

>

> Summary

>

> Don t agree to see her T along or with her without a phone call from the

> T first, with nada giving the T permission to discuss her with you, and

> hearing from the T that she does understand that Mom is a BP.

>

> Do NOT let her T become yours. If you agree to anything, it is to

> participate in family T sessions to help the T in helping your mom. If

> you want to see a T, find one yourself and start sessions. Alternately,

> see a T first, and let YOUR T speak to mom s T with both T s having

> persmission from you and nada to discuss, and then set up a family

> session.

>

> A family T session can be good, it can be a start of healing. But I

> must caution you this: One session is not likely to bring about huge

> changes. If you are not inviting nada to a wedding because you fear her

> behaviors will be such as to ruin the day, a month of T is not going to

> change that.

>

> If nada is trying to use T sessions as an excuse to get her way, it is

> manipulation. Another good question to ask the T, is do you think my

> mom is at a point in T where a family session will be beneficial? Tell

> the T you are not interested in going just to play games and have nada

> try to get to come to the wedding when no real change has taken place.

> Make it clear that based on a lifetime , you don t trust her, you don t

> trust her words, and you feel everything is an attempt to manipulate.

>

> Doug

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ang-

I'm so deeply sorry for your loss. I know what it's like to lose everyone by .

.. . merely surviving and not allowing nada to take your life or put you in

danger.

That is colossally unfair. And a HUGE amount of loss.

If I may, you and nada didn't have a final blowout. She attacked you. She has

been abusing you since birth. You, more than anyone, knows how dangerous she

is. She forced you to seek legal help because she was threatening your safety.

That is ALL on her, not you. You appropriately defended yourself against a

dangerous, scary, mentally ill attacker. That is not an equal exchange. You

have no part in that guilt. That guilt is on her, not you.

One other thought about the T. That makes total sense about her behavior not

being as refined as other BPD. Be careful, though, to not underestimate her

ability to act the part in front of the T. She's got a lot at stake here, and

she may be just fine keeping her rage under control when it suits her. Rage is

often about control--not about anger.

And, if she's got this T wrapped up and convinced it's you (and I'm sure she

does) that T will quickly come to her defense if she rages. Can you imagine?

Nada in a rage? And the T turning aginst her and saying: " Look what you're

doing! You're raging and abusive! " Ummmm . . . no. That T will turn the blame

on you. " This poor woman is just distraught because she feels abandoned. Let

me tell you, daughter, how you can stop your bad behavior and protect her from

all of this. "

Yeah. Been there. Done that.

One of the things I regret most is being open and honest in front of a T, trying

to come to an agreement and/or understanding of a conciliatory relationship. I

was being open and honest, trying to work things out. The BPD was merely

collecting information. Information he then used to craft his crazy-making,

abuse, and destruction. He was doing recon to fight a war against me. And I

was opening up with my deep fears and vulnerabilities. Chilling, now that I

look back. I just didn't know--he said he wanted to work things out and

" seemed " to be open to the process. Sheesh. That process damned near killed

me.

Just be careful.

Finally, while I have a lot of insight/experience with this one, I'm not in the

situation. It's not my nada, not my family, and not my decision. You have all

of the information, you are in the situation, and you will know what's best.

You may need to follow this through for your own peace of mind. You may need to

find another T and try. You may need to walk away entirely.

I'm not sure what the right thing is for you. But I AM sure you will find your

way, and find it well. I have complete confidence in your ability to make the

right choice for you, whatever that looks like.

Blessings!

Karla

> >

> > My advice? Be veeerrrryyy careful.

> >

> > I once sat in therapy with a BPD/NPD. The BPD was so incredibly adept at

lying, shifting blame, and otherwise making himself the victim . . . the T was

just one more tool he used to attack and destroy me. That T was putty in the

NP's hands, and became--with the best of intentions--one of the most powerful

weapons used to destroy my sense of self. Can you imagine? All of that

crazy-making done through the authority of an " objective " professional!

> >

> > The thing I learned from that situation is how easy it was to " con " a good

therapist. While I'm a firm believer in therapy (it saved my life) I learned

that most therapists are extremely easy to manipulate. They intuitively want

everyone to be okay, and will only confront someone on bad behavior until that

person is ready to receive it--and usually gently when that moment comes. That,

sadly, is a situation ripe for a BPD's manipulation. Where will all that

negativity about the dysfunction go if the T can't put it where it belongs?

That's right. You. Because you've been trained from birth to take it, and the

T won't know any better. The T has been set up to receive you as the problem,

and will go with that assumption. Leaving you on the defensive . . . which only

will help the T know how " guilty " you are.

> >

> > No matter what, Nada would not could not have you go to this therapist if

she had any conviction about the T being objective. To her, " objective " means

" in complete agreement with her. "

> >

> > The moment the T is REALLY objective is the moment nada gets confronted

about her abusive behavior and lying. She's not going to let that happen. She

can't let that happen if she's going to continue her charade of being perfect to

everyone.

> >

> > So . . . my take is that she's laid a trap for you. At a time when you need

it the least.

> >

> > And imagine how much she will use this if/when the T turns on you and

becomes one of nada's flying monkeys? " I did what she told me--I went to

therapy with a trained professional. But my daughter so messed up that even the

T couldn't get through to her. My daughter is the insane one--my T said so.

And I have proof because my daughter wouldn't continue, even though I was

willing to work things out. "

> >

> > Dang I hope this isn't too cynical. I'm just seeing some major red flags

and traps. Again, if nada really believed this T had the capacity to confront

HER (the real issue, BTW) she would never suggest you sit down with the two of

them.

> >

> > One question to ask, if I may, even if you get an " objective " T. What are

your goals here? To change her? To have her finally " get " it? To have her be

cured? To get her to act consistently? To stop her abuse?

> >

> > Sadly, there is very little therapy can do for a BPD, unless they submit to

it for many years. According to Randi's CDs on divorcing a BPD, it takes three

years of intense therapy before you see ANY change.

> >

> > Just be careful, my friend. I'm sure you have better things to do with your

time than to jump into nada's quagmire. No matter what you decide, be careful.

> >

> > Blessings,

> > Karla

>

[Guest guest]

A 2nd post here after reading Karla s advice.

Her comments about a PD person conning a T just re inforces my thought

that you should have your own T first. Agree to a phone call, not a

face to face, with Nada s T so you can assess that T s position. Then

tell the T you will see a T yourself, and when your T thinks it is the

right time, your T will coordinate a family session. It may be with

both T s and you and nada, so everybody has a comfort level.

As I said, and Karla underscores, nada will balk at your request for a

phone call with permission for the T to talk. She doesn t want you or

the T to know the truth, except as manufactued by her. If she thinks

for a moment the T will confront her, she ll back away.

Also, underscoring, a month of Family T will not result in change. It

takes 3 intense years, with nada a willing player, to see real change.

You goals in therapy, with your T, are to heal, and get past the results

of nada s manipulation. Your goals in T can never be to make nada

heal. That is not your choice. It is hers. You can , at most, be

willing to participate in FT in order to help the T help her heal, and

eventually heal the family dynamic so maybe you have a real family.

I was in a couple family therapy sessions with my nada.

One when she was in a psych hosp. We arrived to find mom not there.

The T said, well, F is pouting. I went and told her what we are doing

and she is lying on her bed with her face to the wall. I m going to go

bring her in now. She sat with jaws clenched, pouting, playing victim,

to both the T and us, for most of the session. the T finally said, ok so

we have a plan here. F agrees reluctantly, but it seems she is going to

just do whatever she wants to and probably not abide by the terms we

agreed on here today. That is her choice. F , you don t seem to want

to change, or hear advice from either a trained professional, or from

your family who does care for you and love you, or they would not be

here today, inside a locked psych ward, sitting in a T session with you.

2 were at another T s office. Both times Mom arrived late. Once with 20

minutes left, so we did not have a constructive session. Again,

nearly 45 mins late, as the T and I were leaving the bldg. The T told

her flat out that she was disrespecting him, and me, and the whole

process, and in the future any session where she was not on time or

called to cancel, he would not see her.

There were no more family sessions. A family session is only

productive once the PD person has bought into the therapeutic process.

Doug

[Guest guest]

Hi

I'm one of those ones that reads this board but doesn't post much.

I've had some experience in this and thought I'd chime in. I had two joint

sessions with nada's T a few months ago and the short story is that afterwards

it made me more determined to continue with LC for the sake of my sanity.

Longer story:

Nada sees her T occasionally (cause obviously she doesn't need to go regularly-

lol!) and I have had personal positive experience with this T in the past. I had

recently gone LC after years of trying with nada and getting nowhere, plus had

found out about BPD and joined this board.

It was my idea for a joint session and Nada agreed. I spoke to her T alone twice

before the sessions and explained that I thought Nada had BPD. I could tell by

the tone of T's voice that T had not thought of that (I am hyper-vigilant about

picking things up from people's tone of voice after growing up with Nada- so

make of that what you will). T listened to my concerns and said he would

consultant with a colleague who is a psychiatrist. Which he did and basically

said that it is not his area expertise but if I wanted help getting Nada

referred to psychiatrist he would try to help and he understands he only hears

one side of the story. This reassured me that he was openminded to more than

what Nada said.

During our first joint session I felt was holding back a bit but overall I was

honest and cried at points. Nada was pretty much non emotional/ distant and at

the end I felt like I had wasted my time. We did set up another session and

during that one T gave me opportunity to explain what it was like growing up

with Nada in more detail. I said about her non verbal behaviors (most of her

stuff is non verbal and subtle) e.g. tone of voice and body language that I felt

were disconcerting to myself as a young child. During me saying this Nada had a

strange look on her face which to my experience dealing with her said she had

dissociated as she couldn't/ wouldn't face up to anything that puts her as not

perfect. Once I had finished saying what I was saying (and totally in tears),

Nada looked around and said she was baffled by what I was saying and that wasn't

her recollection at all, she was only getting on with the business of being a

mother and I was over analyzing. It was at this precise point I realized that LC

way definitely the way to continue. I don't need this crazy making in my life!

Last week Nada emailed me to see if I would like another session. At first I

said no but then being a KO I thought `what if she does change? I don't what to

close the door just in case'. So I said I would IF she ever came to a place

where she was able to acknowledge that her behaviors (including non verbal

stuff) had a role to play in how things had turned out in her own life. Nada

reply to this was `I feel I am not being heard'!!!!. If ever a bitch slap to

Nada was needed it was then but I got into my protective shell/passive stuff and

didn't say much. (I need to work on that).

Sorry this is much longer that I thought it would be. Hope you find whatever

works for you.

Nav

Ps- Also one occasion Nada agreed to see psychiatrist with support of her T, but

when it came to making appointment she decided she didn't need it and she had

been manipulated into agreeing to go. And at another point she had agreed to go

to a treatment centre but then pulled out as she said she had a message from God

that she was ok and it was other people not her were the cause of her issues!

>

> Ok, all. I need a little advice/encouragement. I have been estranged from Nada

since July now. Things got to such a bad place that I told her the only

communication I was willing to have with her for a good long while was in a T's

office. She's given me every excuse in the book over the past several months as

to why we can't go to therapy- she doesn't feel safe, her therapist says it's a

bad idea, I'm just going to go in there and lie and hurt her reputation, etc,

etc, etc...

>

> So, it's possible that she may be coming around, probably because my wedding

is coming up in less than 2 months and she's " dishonored " and humiliated because

she was not sent an invitation. So, what she's proposing now is that I go see

her T alone for a session so the T can decide if she's a good fit to be our

joint T. Ideally, yes, I'd like to go and see a neutral T, but if this is the

only way I can get her into therapy, then I may just have to take it. Judging by

some of the things Nada is claiming that her T has said, however, I'm a little

nervous about how good the T really is. Of course, I've seen first hand that

Nada is a master at lying, so it's quite possible she's lying to me, lying to

the T, distorted everything she's hearing in therapy, or a combo of all three.

>

> So, I'm a little scared. I'm afraid I'm going to go and see this T and not

even have a fighting chance for her to understand my story as she's been talking

with nada for a few months now. There's still that little seed in my soul of

doubt that nags at me. What if it IS me? What if the things Nada says about me

are right? I know on an intellectual level that her behvior is beyond nuts, but

that feeling of doubt is so dang hard to extinguish! So, am I making a mistake

to agree to see nada's T without pushing for a neutral T for us to see??

>

> Thanks in advance for the wisdom! :-)

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks so much to everyone for the pearls of wisdom! I may have just jumped the

gun on this... Really? Did I REALLY think she would come around and be open to

facing these issues?? Silly me... I just got through reading literally a novel

from her this morning about how her wedding gift to me will be to let me see her

T so that I can go and lie about her and run her in the ground, but she's hoping

perhaps I'll give my poor daddy some mercy since he's dead. She said she's

realized now that I don't really want joint therapy, I just want to be able to

see her T alone once to spread lies about her. wow... Seriously, I think this

woman could drive me insane. Nobody elicits that reaction from me that nada

does. She tried to bait me by ending her email with something like, " I'm sure

I'll be put on the no communication list since I told you the truth and you

didn't want to hear it. How mature! " She can go and piss up a rope for all I

care at this point. Go ahead and add immature to the list of epitaths you have

for me. It may actually be one of the nicer ones! I don't want to respond to her

because I don't want her to think that that type of an email will get a response

from me. I know I could send another short email to her to reiterate my

boundary, but I don't know if she even cognitively processes my emails in the

first place and I just need this to be done for now. It has been the black cloud

of my entire week and I'm back to tossing and turning again... Thoughts?

Thanks,

[Guest guest]

Hi

One other thing I wanted to share was I wouldn't consider a joint session with

BPD unless you've done a decent amount of work on your own boundaries/issues. I

had a joint session with Nada about 5 years ago and at that point I had only

started to look at how relationship with Nada had affected me and still

believing I could make her better by adjusting myself to Nada. I spent the

session reacting to her crazy making and apologising for myself. Nada was able

to duck and dive and manipulate her way through and the whole thing was

definitely a waste of time and my sanity.

Nav

>

> Hi

> I'm one of those ones that reads this board but doesn't post much.

>

> I've had some experience in this and thought I'd chime in. I had two joint

sessions with nada's T a few months ago and the short story is that afterwards

it made me more determined to continue with LC for the sake of my sanity.

>

> Longer story:

> Nada sees her T occasionally (cause obviously she doesn't need to go

regularly- lol!) and I have had personal positive experience with this T in the

past. I had recently gone LC after years of trying with nada and getting

nowhere, plus had found out about BPD and joined this board.

>

> It was my idea for a joint session and Nada agreed. I spoke to her T alone

twice before the sessions and explained that I thought Nada had BPD. I could

tell by the tone of T's voice that T had not thought of that (I am

hyper-vigilant about picking things up from people's tone of voice after growing

up with Nada- so make of that what you will). T listened to my concerns and said

he would consultant with a colleague who is a psychiatrist. Which he did and

basically said that it is not his area expertise but if I wanted help getting

Nada referred to psychiatrist he would try to help and he understands he only

hears one side of the story. This reassured me that he was openminded to more

than what Nada said.

>

> During our first joint session I felt was holding back a bit but overall I was

honest and cried at points. Nada was pretty much non emotional/ distant and at

the end I felt like I had wasted my time. We did set up another session and

during that one T gave me opportunity to explain what it was like growing up

with Nada in more detail. I said about her non verbal behaviors (most of her

stuff is non verbal and subtle) e.g. tone of voice and body language that I felt

were disconcerting to myself as a young child. During me saying this Nada had a

strange look on her face which to my experience dealing with her said she had

dissociated as she couldn't/ wouldn't face up to anything that puts her as not

perfect. Once I had finished saying what I was saying (and totally in tears),

Nada looked around and said she was baffled by what I was saying and that wasn't

her recollection at all, she was only getting on with the business of being a

mother and I was over analyzing. It was at this precise point I realized that LC

way definitely the way to continue. I don't need this crazy making in my life!

>

> Last week Nada emailed me to see if I would like another session. At first I

said no but then being a KO I thought `what if she does change? I don't what to

close the door just in case'. So I said I would IF she ever came to a place

where she was able to acknowledge that her behaviors (including non verbal

stuff) had a role to play in how things had turned out in her own life. Nada

reply to this was `I feel I am not being heard'!!!!. If ever a bitch slap to

Nada was needed it was then but I got into my protective shell/passive stuff and

didn't say much. (I need to work on that).

>

> Sorry this is much longer that I thought it would be. Hope you find whatever

works for you.

>

> Nav

>

> Ps- Also one occasion Nada agreed to see psychiatrist with support of her T,

but when it came to making appointment she decided she didn't need it and she

had been manipulated into agreeing to go. And at another point she had agreed to

go to a treatment centre but then pulled out as she said she had a message from

God that she was ok and it was other people not her were the cause of her

issues!

>

>

[Guest guest]

Your nada's behavior is a classic example that personality disorder is " ego

syntonic " , and she also has a touch of narcissism:

" ...she had agreed to go to a treatment centre but then pulled out as she said

she had a message from God that she was ok and it was other people not her were

the cause of her issues! "

" Ego syntonic " means that the person with personality disorder is just fine with

the way she is, thank you very much. There is nothing wrong with her at all;

every problem in her life is coming from outside of herself and is caused by

other people or uncontrollable events. Therefor, the person with a pd does not

see any need to go into therapy, see a psychiatrist, or take meds (if they would

help with auxiliary or co-morbid conditions like depression). She has no

motivation to work at gaining personal insight, learning to self-monitor and

self-regulate her disordered, distorted, counter-productive patterns of thought,

feeling or behavior, because... there is nothing wrong with her that needs to

change!

The narcissism comes in (in my opinion) in claiming that God Himself told her

that she is just fine.

Her cold or emotionless affect / possible dissociation during your joint therapy

session is, I'm guessing, probably due to fear. She is not open to exploring

any part of her own psyche that might show that she was/is a less than perfect

mother and she hurt(s) you. Those with pds find it virtually impossible to

accept responsibility for their own behaviors and words, it shatters their

fragile, nearly non-existent sense of self. If I understand the material I've

read correctly, that's why they grab onto the " I'm perfect, and I'm the victim "

position and hang on like grim death. Admitting that there is something wrong

with them must feel like sliding into an abyss of non-existence, an annihilation

of their entire ego.

If your mother were able to work all this out for herself in individual therapy,

then she might be ready to have a joint therapy session with you.

But joint therapy with someone who is, in essence, an untreated borderline pd

person can't go anywhere. In my opinion.

-Annie

> >

> > Ok, all. I need a little advice/encouragement. I have been estranged from

Nada since July now. Things got to such a bad place that I told her the only

communication I was willing to have with her for a good long while was in a T's

office. She's given me every excuse in the book over the past several months as

to why we can't go to therapy- she doesn't feel safe, her therapist says it's a

bad idea, I'm just going to go in there and lie and hurt her reputation, etc,

etc, etc...

> >

> > So, it's possible that she may be coming around, probably because my wedding

is coming up in less than 2 months and she's " dishonored " and humiliated because

she was not sent an invitation. So, what she's proposing now is that I go see

her T alone for a session so the T can decide if she's a good fit to be our

joint T. Ideally, yes, I'd like to go and see a neutral T, but if this is the

only way I can get her into therapy, then I may just have to take it. Judging by

some of the things Nada is claiming that her T has said, however, I'm a little

nervous about how good the T really is. Of course, I've seen first hand that

Nada is a master at lying, so it's quite possible she's lying to me, lying to

the T, distorted everything she's hearing in therapy, or a combo of all three.

> >

> > So, I'm a little scared. I'm afraid I'm going to go and see this T and not

even have a fighting chance for her to understand my story as she's been talking

with nada for a few months now. There's still that little seed in my soul of

doubt that nags at me. What if it IS me? What if the things Nada says about me

are right? I know on an intellectual level that her behvior is beyond nuts, but

that feeling of doubt is so dang hard to extinguish! So, am I making a mistake

to agree to see nada's T without pushing for a neutral T for us to see??

> >

> > Thanks in advance for the wisdom! :-)

> >

>

[Guest guest]

OMG ---- Yeah no need to respond to that. I wouldn't. What can you

even say? Are you going to argue with a personal message from God/your dead

dad's feelings? It's pretty much inarguable. " But God said, " and " dad who

has passed on feels. . . " The ultimate trump cards. I'm right and this is

verified by 2 individuals who are utterly unreachable for verification.

On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 9:58 AM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Your nada's behavior is a classic example that personality disorder is " ego

> syntonic " , and she also has a touch of narcissism:

>

> " ...she had agreed to go to a treatment centre but then pulled out as she

> said she had a message from God that she was ok and it was other people not

> her were the cause of her issues! "

>

> " Ego syntonic " means that the person with personality disorder is just fine

> with the way she is, thank you very much. There is nothing wrong with her at

> all; every problem in her life is coming from outside of herself and is

> caused by other people or uncontrollable events. Therefor, the person with a

> pd does not see any need to go into therapy, see a psychiatrist, or take

> meds (if they would help with auxiliary or co-morbid conditions like

> depression). She has no motivation to work at gaining personal insight,

> learning to self-monitor and self-regulate her disordered, distorted,

> counter-productive patterns of thought, feeling or behavior, because...

> there is nothing wrong with her that needs to change!

>

> The narcissism comes in (in my opinion) in claiming that God Himself told

> her that she is just fine.

>

> Her cold or emotionless affect / possible dissociation during your joint

> therapy session is, I'm guessing, probably due to fear. She is not open to

> exploring any part of her own psyche that might show that she was/is a less

> than perfect mother and she hurt(s) you. Those with pds find it virtually

> impossible to accept responsibility for their own behaviors and words, it

> shatters their fragile, nearly non-existent sense of self. If I understand

> the material I've read correctly, that's why they grab onto the " I'm

> perfect, and I'm the victim " position and hang on like grim death. Admitting

> that there is something wrong with them must feel like sliding into an abyss

> of non-existence, an annihilation of their entire ego.

>

> If your mother were able to work all this out for herself in individual

> therapy, then she might be ready to have a joint therapy session with you.

>

> But joint therapy with someone who is, in essence, an untreated borderline

> pd person can't go anywhere. In my opinion.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> > >

> > > Ok, all. I need a little advice/encouragement. I have been estranged

> from Nada since July now. Things got to such a bad place that I told her the

> only communication I was willing to have with her for a good long while was

> in a T's office. She's given me every excuse in the book over the past

> several months as to why we can't go to therapy- she doesn't feel safe, her

> therapist says it's a bad idea, I'm just going to go in there and lie and

> hurt her reputation, etc, etc, etc...

> > >

> > > So, it's possible that she may be coming around, probably because my

> wedding is coming up in less than 2 months and she's " dishonored " and

> humiliated because she was not sent an invitation. So, what she's proposing

> now is that I go see her T alone for a session so the T can decide if she's

> a good fit to be our joint T. Ideally, yes, I'd like to go and see a neutral

> T, but if this is the only way I can get her into therapy, then I may just

> have to take it. Judging by some of the things Nada is claiming that her T

> has said, however, I'm a little nervous about how good the T really is. Of

> course, I've seen first hand that Nada is a master at lying, so it's quite

> possible she's lying to me, lying to the T, distorted everything she's

> hearing in therapy, or a combo of all three.

> > >

> > > So, I'm a little scared. I'm afraid I'm going to go and see this T and

> not even have a fighting chance for her to understand my story as she's been

> talking with nada for a few months now. There's still that little seed in my

> soul of doubt that nags at me. What if it IS me? What if the things Nada

> says about me are right? I know on an intellectual level that her behvior is

> beyond nuts, but that feeling of doubt is so dang hard to extinguish! So, am

> I making a mistake to agree to see nada's T without pushing for a neutral T

> for us to see??

> > >

> > > Thanks in advance for the wisdom! :-)

> > >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

you know stephanie i think they have the potential to drive us insane. sometimes

i think i skirt the edges. my nada willl take my emails to her and tell her that

i have no right to say " these " things to her and that i am really mad at

someone

else and taking it out on " poor " her. i.e. my kid's father.

i did marry two personality disordered men because i was raised by insane

parents. so there is some connection. ha!

and mine would NEVER go to therapy. i tried when i was pregnant with my second

child. (who has autism).it took me having children to see something was wrong

with HER and not me. She became my grandnada who was a bitch. Pre email times,

she would write these scathing letters. Her and grandnada even came to visit

when i was 8 months pregnant. i was huge and it was hot in north carolina in

august. my grandnada got offended because i didn't jump at noon and serve lunch

to them.(they have this weird icky obsession with food and meals)

 Because of that, i was selfish and not treating them with respect. long story

short, i got upset with my grandnada while my nada stood in the background

watching and not defending or helping me in anyway. i will never forget that. i

started to cry and couldn't stop. then my ex came in and they left. of course

they never did anything wrong. it was all me......you guys know the story.

 

Felicia Ward

Remember that people often have different perceptions of the same reality. You

can both be right, and no one has to be wrong, if each of you is willing to let

the other person have his or her perceptions and if both of you are willing to

compromise. 

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sun, March 20, 2011 6:47:32 AM

Subject: Re: Therapy with Nada?

 

Thanks so much to everyone for the pearls of wisdom! I may have just jumped the

gun on this... Really? Did I REALLY think she would come around and be open to

facing these issues?? Silly me... I just got through reading literally a novel

from her this morning about how her wedding gift to me will be to let me see her

T so that I can go and lie about her and run her in the ground, but she's hoping

perhaps I'll give my poor daddy some mercy since he's dead. She said she's

realized now that I don't really want joint therapy, I just want to be able to

see her T alone once to spread lies about her. wow... Seriously, I think this

woman could drive me insane. Nobody elicits that reaction from me that nada

does. She tried to bait me by ending her email with something like, " I'm sure

I'll be put on the no communication list since I told you the truth and you

didn't want to hear it. How mature! " She can go and piss up a rope for all I

care at this point. Go ahead and add immature to the list of epitaths you have

for me. It may actually be one of the nicer ones! I don't want to respond to her

because I don't want her to think that that type of an email will get a response

from me. I know I could send another short email to her to reiterate my

boundary, but I don't know if she even cognitively processes my emails in the

first place and I just need this to be done for now. It has been the black cloud

of my entire week and I'm back to tossing and turning again... Thoughts?

Thanks,

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your insight Annie. 'God' is my Nada's trump card. When her other

excuses aren't working the way she wants them to... out comes her divine

direction from God about how she is right. And if only I was more in tune with

spirituality and philosophy the way she is (HA HA), I would understand and agree

with her!!

Nav

> >

> > Hi

> > I'm one of those ones that reads this board but doesn't post much.

> >

> > I've had some experience in this and thought I'd chime in. I had two joint

sessions with nada's T a few months ago and the short story is that afterwards

it made me more determined to continue with LC for the sake of my sanity.

> >

> > Longer story:

> > Nada sees her T occasionally (cause obviously she doesn't need to go

regularly- lol!) and I have had personal positive experience with this T in the

past. I had recently gone LC after years of trying with nada and getting

nowhere, plus had found out about BPD and joined this board.

> >

> > It was my idea for a joint session and Nada agreed. I spoke to her T alone

twice before the sessions and explained that I thought Nada had BPD. I could

tell by the tone of T's voice that T had not thought of that (I am

hyper-vigilant about picking things up from people's tone of voice after growing

up with Nada- so make of that what you will). T listened to my concerns and said

he would consultant with a colleague who is a psychiatrist. Which he did and

basically said that it is not his area expertise but if I wanted help getting

Nada referred to psychiatrist he would try to help and he understands he only

hears one side of the story. This reassured me that he was openminded to more

than what Nada said.

> >

> > During our first joint session I felt was holding back a bit but overall I

was honest and cried at points. Nada was pretty much non emotional/ distant and

at the end I felt like I had wasted my time. We did set up another session and

during that one T gave me opportunity to explain what it was like growing up

with Nada in more detail. I said about her non verbal behaviors (most of her

stuff is non verbal and subtle) e.g. tone of voice and body language that I felt

were disconcerting to myself as a young child. During me saying this Nada had a

strange look on her face which to my experience dealing with her said she had

dissociated as she couldn't/ wouldn't face up to anything that puts her as not

perfect. Once I had finished saying what I was saying (and totally in tears),

Nada looked around and said she was baffled by what I was saying and that wasn't

her recollection at all, she was only getting on with the business of being a

mother and I was over analyzing. It was at this precise point I realized that LC

way definitely the way to continue. I don't need this crazy making in my life!

> >

> > Last week Nada emailed me to see if I would like another session. At first I

said no but then being a KO I thought `what if she does change? I don't what to

close the door just in case'. So I said I would IF she ever came to a place

where she was able to acknowledge that her behaviors (including non verbal

stuff) had a role to play in how things had turned out in her own life. Nada

reply to this was `I feel I am not being heard'!!!!. If ever a bitch slap to

Nada was needed it was then but I got into my protective shell/passive stuff and

didn't say much. (I need to work on that).

> >

> > Sorry this is much longer that I thought it would be. Hope you find whatever

works for you.

> >

> > Nav

> >

> > Ps- Also one occasion Nada agreed to see psychiatrist with support of her T,

but when it came to making appointment she decided she didn't need it and she

had been manipulated into agreeing to go. And at another point she had agreed to

go to a treatment centre but then pulled out as she said she had a message from

God that she was ok and it was other people not her were the cause of her

issues!

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

If I had a dime for every time a BPD FOO slapped the " Jesus " card on the table

as the ultimate trump/power/superiority play . . . viciously stomping on the

person in front of them as they did so . . .

I wouldn't have to pay for therapy out of my own pocket!!

And, for the record, they always mis-quoted HIM, too. Helped me feel a little

less alone.

Blessings,

Karla

> > >

> > > Hi

> > > I'm one of those ones that reads this board but doesn't post much.

> > >

> > > I've had some experience in this and thought I'd chime in. I had two joint

sessions with nada's T a few months ago and the short story is that afterwards

it made me more determined to continue with LC for the sake of my sanity.

> > >

> > > Longer story:

> > > Nada sees her T occasionally (cause obviously she doesn't need to go

regularly- lol!) and I have had personal positive experience with this T in the

past. I had recently gone LC after years of trying with nada and getting

nowhere, plus had found out about BPD and joined this board.

> > >

> > > It was my idea for a joint session and Nada agreed. I spoke to her T alone

twice before the sessions and explained that I thought Nada had BPD. I could

tell by the tone of T's voice that T had not thought of that (I am

hyper-vigilant about picking things up from people's tone of voice after growing

up with Nada- so make of that what you will). T listened to my concerns and said

he would consultant with a colleague who is a psychiatrist. Which he did and

basically said that it is not his area expertise but if I wanted help getting

Nada referred to psychiatrist he would try to help and he understands he only

hears one side of the story. This reassured me that he was openminded to more

than what Nada said.

> > >

> > > During our first joint session I felt was holding back a bit but overall I

was honest and cried at points. Nada was pretty much non emotional/ distant and

at the end I felt like I had wasted my time. We did set up another session and

during that one T gave me opportunity to explain what it was like growing up

with Nada in more detail. I said about her non verbal behaviors (most of her

stuff is non verbal and subtle) e.g. tone of voice and body language that I felt

were disconcerting to myself as a young child. During me saying this Nada had a

strange look on her face which to my experience dealing with her said she had

dissociated as she couldn't/ wouldn't face up to anything that puts her as not

perfect. Once I had finished saying what I was saying (and totally in tears),

Nada looked around and said she was baffled by what I was saying and that wasn't

her recollection at all, she was only getting on with the business of being a

mother and I was over analyzing. It was at this precise point I realized that LC

way definitely the way to continue. I don't need this crazy making in my life!

> > >

> > > Last week Nada emailed me to see if I would like another session. At first

I said no but then being a KO I thought `what if she does change? I don't what

to close the door just in case'. So I said I would IF she ever came to a place

where she was able to acknowledge that her behaviors (including non verbal

stuff) had a role to play in how things had turned out in her own life. Nada

reply to this was `I feel I am not being heard'!!!!. If ever a bitch slap to

Nada was needed it was then but I got into my protective shell/passive stuff and

didn't say much. (I need to work on that).

> > >

> > > Sorry this is much longer that I thought it would be. Hope you find

whatever works for you.

> > >

> > > Nav

> > >

> > > Ps- Also one occasion Nada agreed to see psychiatrist with support of her

T, but when it came to making appointment she decided she didn't need it and she

had been manipulated into agreeing to go. And at another point she had agreed to

go to a treatment centre but then pulled out as she said she had a message from

God that she was ok and it was other people not her were the cause of her

issues!

> > >

> > >

>

[Guest guest]

Ego syntonic is a Lithuanian word meaning arrogant, narcissistic, pain

in the ass.

Just sharing....

Doug

>

> Your nada's behavior is a classic example that personality disorder is

" ego syntonic " , and she also has a touch of narcissism:

>

> " ...she had agreed to go to a treatment centre but then pulled out as

she said she had a message from God that she was ok and it was other

people not her were the cause of her issues! "

>

> " Ego syntonic " means that the person with personality disorder is just

fine with the way she is, thank you very much. There is nothing wrong

with her at all; every problem in her life is coming from outside of

herself and is caused by other people or uncontrollable events.

Therefor, the person with a pd does not see any need to go into therapy,

see a psychiatrist, or take meds (if they would help with auxiliary or

co-morbid conditions like depression). She has no motivation to work at

gaining personal insight, learning to self-monitor and self-regulate her

disordered, distorted, counter-productive patterns of thought, feeling

or behavior, because... there is nothing wrong with her that needs to

change!

>

> The narcissism comes in (in my opinion) in claiming that God Himself

told her that she is just fine.

>

> Her cold or emotionless affect / possible dissociation during your

joint therapy session is, I'm guessing, probably due to fear. She is not

open to exploring any part of her own psyche that might show that she

was/is a less than perfect mother and she hurt(s) you. Those with pds

find it virtually impossible to accept responsibility for their own

behaviors and words, it shatters their fragile, nearly non-existent

sense of self. If I understand the material I've read correctly, that's

why they grab onto the " I'm perfect, and I'm the victim " position and

hang on like grim death. Admitting that there is something wrong with

them must feel like sliding into an abyss of non-existence, an

annihilation of their entire ego.

>

> If your mother were able to work all this out for herself in

individual therapy, then she might be ready to have a joint therapy

session with you.

>

> But joint therapy with someone who is, in essence, an untreated

borderline pd person can't go anywhere. In my opinion.

>

> -Annie

[Guest guest]

I once gave in to the smart ass in me ( I know you ll all find it hard

to believe that of me ) , and when my nada pulled the well God told me

card, I fired back Jesus told me to tell you that you heard Him wrong.

Didnt accomplish anything but I felt good for a moment.

Doug

>

> If I had a dime for every time a BPD FOO slapped the " Jesus " card on

the table as the ultimate trump/power/superiority play . . . viciously

stomping on the person in front of them as they did so . . .

>

> I wouldn't have to pay for therapy out of my own pocket!!

>

> And, for the record, they always mis-quoted HIM, too. Helped me feel a

little less alone.

>

> Blessings,

> Karla

>

> >

>

[Guest guest]

After listening to many of the posts and responces, and duly

considering, my original response stands.

Oh, HELL no.

Doug

[Guest guest]

LOVE it!

>

>

>

> I once gave in to the smart ass in me ( I know you ll all find it hard

> to believe that of me ) , and when my nada pulled the well God told me

> card, I fired back Jesus told me to tell you that you heard Him wrong.

>

> Didnt accomplish anything but I felt good for a moment.

>

> Doug

>

>

>