question for doug and other wise ones

[Guest guest]

I just finished reading " The Sociopath Next Door " and the author said that bad

behavior plus the appeal for pity is the best we can do in order to spot a

sociopath. My question is do BPDs especially the hermit and waif types

(appealing for pity) have a conscience? Thanks in advance.

 

[Guest guest]

Currently the definition of borderline pd in the DSM-IV does not include lack of

a conscience.

Those with " pure " borderline pd are thought to have a conscience (the ability to

know right from wrong), the capacity for empathy, and the ability to feel

remorse.

HOWEVER its possible for someone with bpd to also have a co-morbidity of another

personality disorder or mental illness, or even several other disorders at the

same time.

So a " Waif " -type bpd could also have antisocial pd and therefor lack a

conscience, lack the capacity for empathy, and lack remorse.

If she does not have aspd, then, its possible that she attempts to elicit your

pity out of genuine fear of abandonment or loneliness.

For example, take those who seem to be obsessed with their physical health, as a

symptom. If the obsession is coming from fear that every pimple or sneeze means

a horrible, lingering death from cancer, then that person is a " hypochondriac. "

Their fear of suffering and death from disease is real. But if the obsession

with physical health is coming from a desire to generate attention from family

and from doctors, then that person has " factitious disorder " . They would be

delighted to find they have some mild form of cancer because that means more

attention and medical care.

So the same symptom of being obsessed with physical health, can come from two

different causes.

In the same way, the symptom of soliciting pity, beseeching others for rescue,

can also come from real need (a child in an abusive home) from genuine fear (the

bpd " Waif's " fear of abandonment) or it could be a cold, premeditated con-job

whose purpose is to use other people, milk them of their money or time. That

would be a psychopath doing that.

-Annie

>

> I just finished reading " The Sociopath Next Door " and the author said that

bad

> behavior plus the appeal for pity is the best we can do in order to spot a

> sociopath. My question is do BPDs especially the hermit and waif types

> (appealing for pity) have a conscience? Thanks in advance.

>

>  

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Felicia,

My opinion is that BPD itself doesn't result in a lack of

conscience. It results in such a skewed view of the world that

they believe the wrong things they're doing are right. My nada's

conscience doesn't kick in because she really believes that she

is right and everyone else is wrong. On the rare occasions when

she truly admits being wrong she does act like she feels bad

about it. BPD is often combined with other disorders though, and

a combination of BPD and sociopathy would be particularly nasty.

At 06:15 PM 03/22/2011 Felicia Ward wrote:

>I just finished reading " The Sociopath Next Door " and the

>author said that bad

>behavior plus the appeal for pity is the best we can do in

>order to spot a

>sociopath. My question is do BPDs especially the hermit and

>waif types

>(appealing for pity) have a conscience? Thanks in advance.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

IMHO, BPD s do have a conscience. In fact, they have such a highly

defined one, and such incredibly fragile self esteem and worth, that

they do everything to suppress that conscience. If they truly hurt

people the way some folks said they do, or were so rude and insensitive,

they couldnt stand it. So, they minimize , justify, gaslight, re write

the script so that they never have to feel that conscience tug at them.

From our point of view, it seems as though they do not have one. But I

believe it is so higly suppressed as to be effectively zero most of the

time. The rare few who manage to grasp healing feel incredible remorse

at the damage they have done.

But when dealing with one who is not healing, we can expect their

behavriors to be as though they have none.

Doug

>

> I just finished reading " The Sociopath Next Door " and the author

said that bad

> behavior plus the appeal for pity is the best we can do in order to

spot a

> sociopath. My question is do BPDs especially the hermit and waif types

> (appealing for pity) have a conscience? Thanks in advance.

>

> Â

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey, I don't consider myself one of the wise ones...I sit at their feet and

learn!

Sheesh, that sounds so much like my mother, the bad behavior/appeal for pity.

In fact, I just got off the phone with her a little while ago and she has lost 8

lbs because she won't eat (she's having digestive issues, which I heard every

last, gruesome detail of). So now, she keeps telling me how weak she is, how

she's just going to lay down all day....Moan...

I don't know much about sociopaths but when I consider my mother, I mean, I

assume she has a conscience, but it seems to me that the main motivation for her

behaviors are:

1) survival: she doesn't want to be alone

2) fear of being abandoned

3) what people will think of her

4) fear of everything.

It seems to me that most of her behaviors (like wanting pity) stem from these

motivations, so for my waif/hermit mother, there really aren't others' needs,

there isn't introspection or let me take inventory of my life, it's just those 4

things.

Fiona

>

> I just finished reading " The Sociopath Next Door " and the author said that

bad

> behavior plus the appeal for pity is the best we can do in order to spot a

> sociopath. My question is do BPDs especially the hermit and waif types

> (appealing for pity) have a conscience? Thanks in advance.

>

>  

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My nada has a conscience, but cannot face it. When anyone tries to tell her

that she needs to be nicer to her children, etc.,she simply says, " Quit

lecturing me. My father did that a lot to me, and I don't need you lecturing me

as well. " She insulates herself so well and is so into her own head, that

nothing seems to pull her out of it. Her self esteem is so bad. One day she

slipped up and said out loud, " I hate myself. I am so ugly. " In actuality, she

was a physically beautiful woman.

Annie 2

> >

> > I just finished reading " The Sociopath Next Door " and the author

> said that bad

> > behavior plus the appeal for pity is the best we can do in order to

> spot a

> > sociopath. My question is do BPDs especially the hermit and waif types

> > (appealing for pity) have a conscience? Thanks in advance.

> >

> > Â

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Exactly. There's this great book by called " Controlling People "

that describes exactly that. Whatever their underlying problem is, these people

are just so, so, so, so needy that their needs block out the sun and along with

it, everyone who isn't them.

The thing with borderlines is they have no healthy self-esteem. They don't have

a balanced way to look at themselves that is anything like healthy. I used to

be like this myself. Either I had to think that me or something about me was

better than other people, and on that basis I could feel OK, or I was lower than

dirt, an absolutely contemptible person.

Nada is always like this. Either she's being treated terribly when she's been

an absolute saint (her favorite approach to life), or she's quoting some

celebrity (so if she has the same opinions as them or likes them, then she must

be right and therefore an OK person, right?), or she's pontificating some stance

that nobody can argue with (against smoking, against hunting, against cruelty to

animals, blah blah blah), so therefore she's OK and she can feel good about

herself.

But it isn't healthy self esteem, because the few times she really looked

honestly at the ways she hurt me or someone else, she crumbled into feeling so

terribly, awfully, horribly bad she couldn't stand it. Which is why she never

could get serious about real change. It would feel too bad, and then--BZZZZZZ!

It was all someone else's fault again, and she didn't need to change at all.

See? No middle ground. A person who has no middle ground is constantly

wobbling from one side of the seesaw to the other, and usually they contrive to

keep themselves on the " self-righteous " side because it feels better than

thinking they are the amoebas that feed on pond scum.

This is what we mean when we say that borderline behavior is " ego-syntonic. " It

makes the borderline feel so much better in the moment, that they can't look

down the road to what the consequences will be and stop themselves, and rein

themselves in to better behavior toward themselves and other people. They're

just locked into the moment and what will alleviate the pain they are in right

then...like a hit of J. a or something like that.

--.

[Guest guest]

My nada definitely has that fragility to her. But over the years, as she's

getting older (she's much less aggressive and more waifish in her 50s now than

she was in her 30s) she has developed a passionate, often crippling social

conscience. She has a particular fondness for animal rights issues (my whole

family is very animal-loving, many MANY generations of pets, I'm a veterinarian,

etc, etc), especially farm animal issues. She has become a militant vegan and

is becoming more and more intolerant of people who eat meat or dairy or wear

leather or whatever. Her devotion to the issue has become so intense that she

is reduced to tears and hopeless depression sometimes by the ASPCA commercials

on TV or driving by a dairy farm on the freeway. I've wondered recently if this

is some kind of dissociation or transferance? Has anyone else noticed similar

traits in BPDs? Or maybe it's just my nada's particular interest combined with

her phenomenal lack of coping skills?