Preparing for the worst - need support please

March 30, 2011

I have posted a time or two, not sure if anyone has followed what is going on.

My BPD mom doesn't rage, she has hysterical emotional outbursts. ( guess that's

a form of a rage?) Her thing is emotional manipulation with crying.

After an outbursts a couple of weeks ago, she emailed me and demanded a

confrontation with me with a counselor and wanted me to enter counseling with

her. I responded nicely, telling her we could meet with a mediator while she

said what she had to say but I would not go into counseling WITH her.

She has responded back, trying to strong-arm me into going to counseling, saying

" this is the only way for us to work out differences " and telling me I must be

intimidated by counseling or I would want to go.

Funny enough, she ended the email with " I am ready to go....you tell me when you

want to " as though I was going to crumble and do it her way.

I have stood my ground, responded back that I most definitely would not go to

counseling with her under any circumstances.

I am preparing for an all out attack of FOG - not sure what it is going to be

yet. I wouldn't be surprised if she went NC or LC with me of her own accord to

make me feel guilty. In the past, I have given in to her because I felt sorry

for her but now that I am clued in that she is BPD and realize what is going on,

I'm standing firm and doing what I know is best.

I feel nervous - don't know why. One minute I am strong and the next when she

sends me these emails I feel like a little kid again, scared of what's coming.

Just need some support, advice, tips - whatever you got!

March 30, 2011

big sister,

I just wanted to tell you that you're doing great! You have boundaries, and

you're maintaining them, and your mom is going crazy (crazier?) because she

can't get her way. Reminds me of toddlers' temper tantrums....

And also, you're wise not to go with her to counseling, because I imagine

she'd use her tears to convince the counselor that you're an awful daughter,

and you most definitely do not deserve that, nor are you awful!

If she goes LC or NC with you, my advice would be to enjoy it. LC and NC

doesn't just mean " limited/no contact " , it also means " limited crazy/no

crazy " !

From one big sister to another,

Holly

>

> I have posted a time or two, not sure if anyone has followed what is going

> on.

>

> My BPD mom doesn't rage, she has hysterical emotional outbursts. ( guess

> that's a form of a rage?) Her thing is emotional manipulation with crying.

>

> After an outbursts a couple of weeks ago, she emailed me and demanded a

> confrontation with me with a counselor and wanted me to enter counseling

> with her. I responded nicely, telling her we could meet with a mediator

> while she said what she had to say but I would not go into counseling WITH

> her.

>

> She has responded back, trying to strong-arm me into going to counseling,

> saying " this is the only way for us to work out differences " and telling me

> I must be intimidated by counseling or I would want to go.

> Funny enough, she ended the email with " I am ready to go....you tell me

> when you want to " as though I was going to crumble and do it her way.

>

> I have stood my ground, responded back that I most definitely would not go

> to counseling with her under any circumstances.

>

> I am preparing for an all out attack of FOG - not sure what it is going to

> be yet. I wouldn't be surprised if she went NC or LC with me of her own

> accord to make me feel guilty. In the past, I have given in to her because I

> felt sorry for her but now that I am clued in that she is BPD and realize

> what is going on, I'm standing firm and doing what I know is best.

>

> I feel nervous - don't know why. One minute I am strong and the next when

> she sends me these emails I feel like a little kid again, scared of what's

> coming.

>

> Just need some support, advice, tips - whatever you got!

>

March 30, 2011

I'm rooting for you. I've been virtually No Contact with my nada for about 3

years now, and I'm still intimidated by the idea of her being angry or hurt with

me, but much less so than when I first chose to go No Contact.

Something that can help, but it is a powerful weapon and needs to be used

carefully and briefly, is to let yourself replace the fear with anger.

I, like many KOs, had to shut off access to the natural anger I felt at being

abused. Instead I accepted the abuse. I felt that I must deserve it. I felt a

kind of pervasive, generalized guilt, shame and responsibility for having caused

my mother to be so angry and critical of me all the time; I must have done

something, or I must have just been a fundamentally bad person, in order to earn

the criticism, contempt, and screaming rages from my nada. (and when I was

little, the physical abuse.)

So as an adult when I finally allowed myself to feel that " How DARE you say that

to me??!! " response, that self-righteous surge of anger at the *unfairness* of

my nada clawing into me emotionally with her talons, it helped. The anger

helped; it replaced the fear and guilt.

The trick is to not remain in anger for a long time. Its like anger is an

atomic bomb: it works really well to protect you, but then if you don't make it

go away the radiation will burn YOU.

So, I hope that helps.

-Annie

>

> I have posted a time or two, not sure if anyone has followed what is going on.

>

> My BPD mom doesn't rage, she has hysterical emotional outbursts. ( guess

that's a form of a rage?) Her thing is emotional manipulation with crying.

>

> After an outbursts a couple of weeks ago, she emailed me and demanded a

confrontation with me with a counselor and wanted me to enter counseling with

her. I responded nicely, telling her we could meet with a mediator while she

said what she had to say but I would not go into counseling WITH her.

>

> She has responded back, trying to strong-arm me into going to counseling,

saying " this is the only way for us to work out differences " and telling me I

must be intimidated by counseling or I would want to go.

> Funny enough, she ended the email with " I am ready to go....you tell me when

you want to " as though I was going to crumble and do it her way.

>

> I have stood my ground, responded back that I most definitely would not go to

counseling with her under any circumstances.

>

> I am preparing for an all out attack of FOG - not sure what it is going to be

yet. I wouldn't be surprised if she went NC or LC with me of her own accord to

make me feel guilty. In the past, I have given in to her because I felt sorry

for her but now that I am clued in that she is BPD and realize what is going on,

I'm standing firm and doing what I know is best.

>

> I feel nervous - don't know why. One minute I am strong and the next when she

sends me these emails I feel like a little kid again, scared of what's coming.

>

> Just need some support, advice, tips - whatever you got!

>

March 30, 2011

This may sound kinda weird, but anger is so much more productive than fear.

It's more of a defensive position and you are more able to maintain some power

in the exchange.

And Limited Crazy/No Crazy- LOL

March 31, 2011

Stand your ground, sweetie. Your nada is using emotional blackmail and control.

I know them well with my nada who has passed over but continued that most of her

life.

You will get nowhere if you go to counseling with your nada. She will lie;

betray you and reek havoc frustrating you all the more but getting nowhere. It

is ALWAYS their way or the highway. Take the highway.

March 31, 2011

My nada was a waif/hermit who was prone to histrionics as well. They

are more of a fear reaction than a rage reaction , although they can

morph into rages quickly. And oh yes, they are intended to manipulate.

You, or years ago, I , are intended to be melted by compassion and go

into " comfort her, fix her " mode. Which of course we can t do, but in

her major FOG attack she puts the responsiblity for her pain and fear

and brokenness squarely on us.

If we permit it.

Being KO s , for many years we do just that.

First of all, no counselor worth the license hanging on thier wall would

agree to such a meeting. The purpose of counseling is not for one

client to confront another. It is to help clients process and find

healthy coping mechanisms for their own issues. Counseling would not

be for helping you and your mother " work out your differences " . Your

" differences " are that she is a mentally ill , manipulative PD person.

Counseling for 2 would be couples therapy. Family counseling is

sometimes in order, but would not start out that way. One or both

would be in individual counseling first. The fact that your nada, and

so many other nadas that have been reported in here recently , want

this, is just indicitave of their warped point of view. In thier minds,

you ARE a couple, with her as the senior partner. You are, in short, an

extension of herself.

Of course, it is never advisable to enter into an argument with a BP,

for they will shift the basis so many times you ll finally get

frustrated and leave, or explode, and either way, they win. But if you

are having this arguement in your mind with the FOG, I would say whether

I am intimidated by counseling or not, if I go to counseling it will be

for me, not for you.

And of course, who would be intimidated about having a confrontation

with a BP and a counselor?

You might suggest that if she is ready to go to counseling, you would

applaud her decision, and hope that she does in fact go, for her own

growth and healing.

Counseling would likely benefit you, if you are ready for it. Not so

your nada can tell you what a failure you are, but so that your

counselor can help you deal with the results of having a BPD mom. If,

and a huge IF, nada is in counseling, and making some progress, and you

are as well, there may come a point where a family counseling strategy

would help resolve some issues. But it is not and will never be a place

for her to FOG you. And I would never do it, under any circumstances,

unless

1. Her counselor has her permission to discuss her with you.

2. You first meet alone, with her not even within a mile of the

building.

3. You hear the following words come out of the counselors mouth: "

Yes, your mom has borderline personality disorder. I am trying to help

her deal with that. We are not going into family therapy to blame you

for that, but to help resolve issues between you and your mom to help

you have a more normal , managable relationship.

You wrote,

I feel nervous - don't know why. One minute I am strong and the next

when she sends me these emails I feel like a little kid again, scared of

what's coming.

>

> Just need some support, advice, tips - whatever you got!

>

If you were not a KO, conditioned by FOG, the advice, tip, or solution

would be obvious. The emails make you feel like a kid, while holding

you responsible for her relationship, which is an adult responsibility.

It is a no win situation. With any BP situation, the only winning move

is not to play. So block the emails. Tell her you will not accept her

emails. Change your email address if you must. Set boundaries about

phone calls, that state, I will not talk to you about the counseling

situation. If you mention it, I will hang up at once. Don t let her

engage you in her trap.

Doug

> After an outbursts a couple of weeks ago, she emailed me and demanded

a confrontation with me with a counselor and wanted me to enter

counseling with her. I responded nicely, telling her we could meet with

a mediator while she said what she had to say but I would not go into

counseling WITH her.

>

> She has responded back, trying to strong-arm me into going to

counseling, saying " this is the only way for us to work out differences "

and telling me I must be intimidated by counseling or I would want to

go.

> Funny enough, she ended the email with " I am ready to go....you tell

me when you want to " as though I was going to crumble and do it her way.

>

> I have stood my ground, responded back that I most definitely would

not go to counseling with her under any circumstances.

>

> I am preparing for an all out attack of FOG - not sure what it is

going to be yet. I wouldn't be surprised if she went NC or LC with me of

her own accord to make me feel guilty. In the past, I have given in to

her because I felt sorry for her but now that I am clued in that she is

BPD and realize what is going on, I'm standing firm and doing what I

know is best.

>

> I feel nervous - don't know why. One minute I am strong and the next

when she sends me these emails I feel like a little kid again, scared of

what's coming.

>

> Just need some support, advice, tips - whatever you got!

>

March 31, 2011

Well put, Doug. You've written what I would also suggest, myself.

In my own personal experience, my own elderly bpd/npd mom has not been able to

benefit from therapy.

My nada has been in therapy off and on for a few years now and has gained no

personal insight as to her own condition, and still does not accept personal

responsibility for her own words and behaviors. She is still convinced that

there is nothing really wrong with her and that its us kids who are crazy, mean,

and telling hateful lies about her. She still claims that she was always the

perfect mother to us and there's something wrong with us and we need " fixing. "

Its pretty sad, actually.

My nada is a good example of the concept of personality disorder as " ego

syntonic. " My nada's own behaviors do not distress her at all; she feels

justified in her demanding, critical, perfectionist behaviors and feels entitled

to lash out in explosive rage or hysterical crying when she feels hurt or upset.

She is usually oblivious to the damage these behaviors do to others. (When

Sister and I were little and nada would rage at us and beat us, sometimes

afterward she would cry and beg for forgiveness and promise to not do that

again. But the remorse behavior was inconsistent.) Nada maintains that all her

problems come from outside herself, from other people; she is never to blame.

She is perfect.

-Annie

>

> My nada was a waif/hermit who was prone to histrionics as well. They

> are more of a fear reaction than a rage reaction , although they can

> morph into rages quickly. And oh yes, they are intended to manipulate.

> You, or years ago, I , are intended to be melted by compassion and go

> into " comfort her, fix her " mode. Which of course we can t do, but in

> her major FOG attack she puts the responsiblity for her pain and fear

> and brokenness squarely on us.

>

> If we permit it.

>

> Being KO s , for many years we do just that.

>

> First of all, no counselor worth the license hanging on thier wall would

> agree to such a meeting. The purpose of counseling is not for one

> client to confront another. It is to help clients process and find

> healthy coping mechanisms for their own issues. Counseling would not

> be for helping you and your mother " work out your differences " . Your

> " differences " are that she is a mentally ill , manipulative PD person.

>

> Counseling for 2 would be couples therapy. Family counseling is

> sometimes in order, but would not start out that way. One or both

> would be in individual counseling first. The fact that your nada, and

> so many other nadas that have been reported in here recently , want

> this, is just indicitave of their warped point of view. In thier minds,

> you ARE a couple, with her as the senior partner. You are, in short, an

> extension of herself.

>

> Of course, it is never advisable to enter into an argument with a BP,

> for they will shift the basis so many times you ll finally get

> frustrated and leave, or explode, and either way, they win. But if you

> are having this arguement in your mind with the FOG, I would say whether

> I am intimidated by counseling or not, if I go to counseling it will be

> for me, not for you.

>

> And of course, who would be intimidated about having a confrontation

> with a BP and a counselor?

>

> You might suggest that if she is ready to go to counseling, you would

> applaud her decision, and hope that she does in fact go, for her own

> growth and healing.

>

> Counseling would likely benefit you, if you are ready for it. Not so

> your nada can tell you what a failure you are, but so that your

> counselor can help you deal with the results of having a BPD mom. If,

> and a huge IF, nada is in counseling, and making some progress, and you

> are as well, there may come a point where a family counseling strategy

> would help resolve some issues. But it is not and will never be a place

> for her to FOG you. And I would never do it, under any circumstances,

> unless

>

> 1. Her counselor has her permission to discuss her with you.

>

> 2. You first meet alone, with her not even within a mile of the

> building.

>

> 3. You hear the following words come out of the counselors mouth: "

> Yes, your mom has borderline personality disorder. I am trying to help

> her deal with that. We are not going into family therapy to blame you

> for that, but to help resolve issues between you and your mom to help

> you have a more normal , managable relationship.

>

> You wrote,

>

> I feel nervous - don't know why. One minute I am strong and the next

> when she sends me these emails I feel like a little kid again, scared of

> what's coming.

> >

> > Just need some support, advice, tips - whatever you got!

> >

>

> If you were not a KO, conditioned by FOG, the advice, tip, or solution

> would be obvious. The emails make you feel like a kid, while holding

> you responsible for her relationship, which is an adult responsibility.

> It is a no win situation. With any BP situation, the only winning move

> is not to play. So block the emails. Tell her you will not accept her

> emails. Change your email address if you must. Set boundaries about

> phone calls, that state, I will not talk to you about the counseling

> situation. If you mention it, I will hang up at once. Don t let her

> engage you in her trap.

>

> Doug

>

> > After an outbursts a couple of weeks ago, she emailed me and demanded

> a confrontation with me with a counselor and wanted me to enter

> counseling with her. I responded nicely, telling her we could meet with

> a mediator while she said what she had to say but I would not go into

> counseling WITH her.

> >

> > She has responded back, trying to strong-arm me into going to

> counseling, saying " this is the only way for us to work out differences "

> and telling me I must be intimidated by counseling or I would want to

> go.

> > Funny enough, she ended the email with " I am ready to go....you tell

> me when you want to " as though I was going to crumble and do it her way.

> >

> > I have stood my ground, responded back that I most definitely would

> not go to counseling with her under any circumstances.

> >

> > I am preparing for an all out attack of FOG - not sure what it is

> going to be yet. I wouldn't be surprised if she went NC or LC with me of

> her own accord to make me feel guilty. In the past, I have given in to

> her because I felt sorry for her but now that I am clued in that she is

> BPD and realize what is going on, I'm standing firm and doing what I

> know is best.

> >

> > I feel nervous - don't know why. One minute I am strong and the next

> when she sends me these emails I feel like a little kid again, scared of

> what's coming.

> >

> > Just need some support, advice, tips - whatever you got!

> >

>

March 31, 2011

I love the wisdom that I have found in the postings it is so liberating to know

I am not going through that hell alone.

Took my nada to do her errands today,she had a row with the pharmacist and

calledher an idiot. Is it typical of BP's to alienate the people they need the

most? Has a study ever been done about a chemical imbalance?

PS As I was leaving, she had a fit of rage because I had picked 3 ply tissues

rather than 2. I could not help but tell her that there are more serious

problems in the world...

> >

> > I have posted a time or two, not sure if anyone has followed what is going

on.

> >

> > My BPD mom doesn't rage, she has hysterical emotional outbursts. ( guess

that's a form of a rage?) Her thing is emotional manipulation with crying.

> >

> > After an outbursts a couple of weeks ago, she emailed me and demanded a

confrontation with me with a counselor and wanted me to enter counseling with

her. I responded nicely, telling her we could meet with a mediator while she

said what she had to say but I would not go into counseling WITH her.

> >

> > She has responded back, trying to strong-arm me into going to counseling,

saying " this is the only way for us to work out differences " and telling me I

must be intimidated by counseling or I would want to go.

> > Funny enough, she ended the email with " I am ready to go....you tell me when

you want to " as though I was going to crumble and do it her way.

> >

> > I have stood my ground, responded back that I most definitely would not go

to counseling with her under any circumstances.

> >

> > I am preparing for an all out attack of FOG - not sure what it is going to

be yet. I wouldn't be surprised if she went NC or LC with me of her own accord

to make me feel guilty. In the past, I have given in to her because I felt sorry

for her but now that I am clued in that she is BPD and realize what is going on,

I'm standing firm and doing what I know is best.

> >

> > I feel nervous - don't know why. One minute I am strong and the next when

she sends me these emails I feel like a little kid again, scared of what's

coming.

> >

> > Just need some support, advice, tips - whatever you got!

> >

>

March 31, 2011

My nada is (or was, up until the last few years) very high-functioning, and

although while in public many small things would irritate the crap out of her (I

could see the signs, being hyper-attuned to her every nuance of mood) she would

usually manage to remain cool and collected while shopping or around other

adults in a social or work setting.

But later, when we'd be alone in the car, or inside the house, she'd unleash her

rage. And for God knows what reason, she'd usually direct it AT me, or at

Sister, or at both of us. Or at dad. Its like she needed a target for her

rage, it wasn't satisfying enough to just vent, she had to vent AT someone. So,

she'd find reasons: she'd scream that we had embarrassed her, we did this or

that or the other thing wrong, we weren't obedient enough... whatever.

Sometimes she would fume and rage about another person: the neighbor, the clerk,

the slow wait for gasoline, etc., but usually she'd find some way of pinning her

upset and irritation on us.

I'm sure fellow KOs here can relate to how incredibly, massively damaging that

was for us, to be *chronically* blamed for things we had no control over, blamed

for things that were just... inconveniences (like having to buy two-ply tissue

because the store is out of 3-ply.)

The DSM-IV lists this very behavior as a diagnostic trait of bpd: inappropriate

or extreme anger, or constant irritability.

Yep. We'll just put a check-mark by that one for nada; maybe two.

So, I became a kind of zombie-robot kid: I kept my memories but dissociated from

my feelings, while little Sister dissociated entirely from even her memories of

abuse. Her childhood memories have only started to trickle back for little

Sister in the last few years (we're both in our 50's.)

-Annie

>

> I love the wisdom that I have found in the postings it is so liberating to

know I am not going through that hell alone.

> Took my nada to do her errands today,she had a row with the pharmacist and

calledher an idiot. Is it typical of BP's to alienate the people they need the

most? Has a study ever been done about a chemical imbalance?

> PS As I was leaving, she had a fit of rage because I had picked 3 ply tissues

rather than 2. I could not help but tell her that there are more serious

problems in the world...

April 1, 2011

Thank you EVERYONE for your very wise responses and suggestions! I am so

thankful for all of you who understand.

Doug, wonderful advice.

The bad thing is, my mom HAS been in counseling for 7 years. Her counselor is

the one suggesting " we " go to counseling together. Her counselor also seems to

enjoy making money off my mom and encouraging the victim mentality that my mom

has. I went to a counseling session with my mom as a support when she first left

my dad (at that time I was in the " fix it " mode) and heard for myself the

coddling and " oh you poor helpless victim " coming out of the counselor's mouth.

This counselor is now marking up her fee to the insurance company so my mom has

no out of pocket expenses and can come as much as she wants. Code - I am milking

your illness for all it's worth and laughing on the way to the bank. This

counselor wanted ME to come and do a session with her and my mom for us to " work

out differences " last year but I refused.

So all that to say I loved how you said " no counselor worth the license hanging

on their wall would agree to such a meeting. The purpose of counseling is not

for one client to confront another. "

Confirmed my suspicion that her counselor is a POS with a fancy degree.

I know what you have all said in the past - my mom could be misrepresenting her

counselor. But had I not been to a session or two with my mom 7 years ago and

heard the way she approaches " counseling " for myself, I might agree.

My mom has made NO progress in 7 years. She has only learned psyco-babble

garbage to make her more manipulative and calculating.

I am taking a note pad with some notes for myself if I should meet with my mom

and am writing down several of the things you said, Doug.

My mom will NEVER agree to giving a counselor permission to discuss her WITH me.

Thanks again, so so very much. I'm sure I will post and let you all know if and

what comes out of all this.

Much love to you all.