Do nadas change?

[Guest guest]

I see a lot of references to nadas not changing recently. I'm just curious, do

any nadas change? I know it says they do in SWOE... I guess if nadas changed,

KOs wouldn't need a support group eh?

[Guest guest]

All I can relay with confidence is my own experience. My nada did go into

therapy in her 80s and after a few months she did seem to be miraculously

" cured " , at least for a while.

Nada started treating Sister with respect and kindness, and Sister told me that

it was like a miracle had happened.

But the " miracle " was short-lived. After only a few weeks, my nada was

triggered into yet another screaming, red-faced rage-tantrum at Sister, during

which nada claimed that she had always been a perfect mother to Sister and me,

that it was we who were the lying, hateful, mean, crazy ones, that we had forced

her into therapy (this part was true) and that she only went because we forced

her but she didn't need therapy because there was nothing wrong with her.

So, life with nada over the last three years has been pretty much on-again,

off-again No Contact for Sister, depending on just how verbally abusive nada is

to her. I on the other hand have remained in virtual No Contact the whole time.

I guess I am more cynical than my younger Sister, who is a little optimist,

bless her heart.

I have read at other support groups that *early intervention* and therapy for

*children* who show the precursors for personality disorder can garner some

success, but, it seems that the only adults who successfully overcome a formal

diagnosis of borderline pd are as rare as hen's teeth.

My own personal opinion is that adults who do manage to improve their bpd-like

behaviors are overcoming *learned* behaviors (bpd " fleas " ) and do not

technically have true borderline pd.

Me personally, I'm more aligned with the current DSM-IV school of thought that

defines " personality disorder " as an " ego-syntonic " condition, meaning that it

is " unresponsive to either talk therapy or drug therapy " and that this has to do

with both inborn temperament (see articles about the diathesis-stress model:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diathesis%E2%80%93stress_model) ...and with organic

brain dysfunction.

But, that is an unpopular theory; its currently politically incorrect to say

that some people are incapable of change because they were born genetically or

temperamentally predisposed to mental illness. But I think its unfortunately

true.

There are primate studies that indicate that a combination of

genetically-determined temperament PLUS environmental factors (good mothering or

poor mothering) determine whether an individual has the resilience to

successfully overcome an invalidating upbringing or not. Here is a fascinating

article about this topic:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/12/the-science-of-success/7761/

It seems that both the " dandelion " type and the " orchid " type of individual each

have useful survival traits, but under the wrong conditions, they can each turn

out very well or very badly. The hyper-sensitive/low resilient type can become

borderline pd, while the hypo-sensitive (insensitive)/high-resilience type can

become psychopathic.

Fascinating topic, to me: these " nature vs nurture " studies.

-Annie

>

> I see a lot of references to nadas not changing recently. I'm just curious,

do any nadas change? I know it says they do in SWOE... I guess if nadas

changed, KOs wouldn't need a support group eh?

>

[Guest guest]

My nada was in therapy and on meds a lot throughout my life... sometimes it

seemed to help for a little while. But she always would quit, either the therapy

or the drugs, or both. She had the same relationship problems with her

therapists that she did with anyone else. I'm not sure any of the therapy/meds

would fix it all, but I do think it mellowed her out a bit. She hates the side

effects of the meds though. And she claimed that she took Prozac for awhile and

it worked but then it stopped working, and she has never found one that helped

as much since then.

There were a few years of my life when I was around 8 or 9, where she was

working and things were actually really good at home. I'm not sure if that was

when she was on Prozac or what, but she wasn't depressed, and that really helped

bring the rages down. She still did odd, impulsive things though.

Overall, she HAS changed, but not in the way we would hope. She seems to get

worse and worse with age.

Casey

>

> I see a lot of references to nadas not changing recently. I'm just curious,

do any nadas change? I know it says they do in SWOE... I guess if nadas

changed, KOs wouldn't need a support group eh?

>

[Guest guest]

I'm horrified at the idea that we might not be able to change ourselves, not

because I think my nada will change, but because I have always been horrified

that I was genetically destined to be like her!! It's my worst fear. I'm far too

much like her to my liking, even though at least I can say I don't have BPD.

When I was a teenager I was horrified I would end up with BPD. My nada says she

could feel herself " split " when she was 17 and is pretty sure that is when she

had fullblown BPD. Her father, who doesn't even BELIEVE in mental health,

actually took her to a therapist. When I was 15 I bought books on BPD and read

all the horrible stats about how likely a duaghter of a BPD mother would get it

and I was scared about it until I was like 20.

Casey

> >

> > I see a lot of references to nadas not changing recently. I'm just curious,

do any nadas change? I know it says they do in SWOE... I guess if nadas

changed, KOs wouldn't need a support group eh?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I think its highly likely that you " dodged the bullet " because you actually care

that you *might* exhibit bpd traits.

One of the key defining traits of personality disorder is that the pd individual

is *NOT distressed* by his or her own negative, counter-productive, hurtful

behaviors. (This is referred to as an " ego syntonic " state.) The person with pd

feels that the way she thinks and reacts and behaves toward other people is just

fine, thank you very much; its everyone *else* who has problems and causes

problems for the pd individual.

The person with personality disorder either can't or won't take personal

responsibility for their own choices, decisions, behaviors and words; instead

they blame others and assume the role of perpetual victim. So, those with pd

are not likely to seek therapy. Why should they, when there is nothing wrong

with them?

Meds do help with any co-morbid Axis I conditions a particular pd individual

might have, such as depression, anxiety or psychosis, but currently there are no

meds (correct me if I'm wrong, here) that actually act on the symptoms and

behaviors of personality disorder.

So, if you actually *care* that your behaviors might be hurting your loved ones

or yourself, if you can " own " or accept personal responsibility for your own

behaviors, if you wish to learn how to self-monitor and self-soothe, to be more

" in the moment " , and change any negative, counter-productive behavioral habits

you might have, then from what I've read, if I understand it correctly, you

probably do not have personality disorder and real, substantial change is

possible for you.

Yay!

-Annie

> > >

> > > I see a lot of references to nadas not changing recently. I'm just

curious, do any nadas change? I know it says they do in SWOE... I guess if

nadas changed, KOs wouldn't need a support group eh?

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

My Nada is 80 and it does seem that things have been getting better over the

last few years. I don't see her ever going to a therapist (because nothing is

wrong with her.) That said, she's been on an antidepressent for a few years and

it seems to be helping. She does seem to respond somewhat to the boundries I

have put up. She doesn't like them, but respects them to a point. I have

noticed that she seems to be a bit more forgetful the last year or so. It is

sad to see her becoming forgetful, but she does seem to forget some of the

" behaviours. " So she is changing for the better (at least somewhat.)

>

> I see a lot of references to nadas not changing recently. I'm just curious,

do any nadas change? I know it says they do in SWOE... I guess if nadas

changed, KOs wouldn't need a support group eh?

>

[Guest guest]

Everybody changes. If what you're asking is whether they stop

acting like they have BPD, I think the answer to that is a

pretty resounding " NO! " There's very little chance of their

mental health problems improving because getting the kind of

help that would allow them to improve isn't something they want

to do. They won't/can't admit to having a problem and if you

don't admit you have a problem, you can't ask for or accept help

with that problem. In fact, they mostly seem to fight any

attempts to help them with it.

There are occasionally people who get treated for BPD and do

improve, but from what I can tell, they're usually young women

whose parents recognize a problem and get them started on

treatment early, before they're adults and before their brains

are set into bad patterns.

If what you're asking is whether they can change in smaller

ways, I think that has a somewhat more positive answer. My nada

has learned to treat me better than she used to. I don't think

she's learned why I won't associate with her if she does the

things I won't put up with, but she's gotten the idea that she

has to avoid doing them or I will leave/hang up the phone.

Despite her better behavior, it is quite obvious to me that she

has BPD. She simply wants things from me more than she wants to

misbehave around me. I think that having my sister disappear

completely from her life made her realize that I could do it too

and that would leave her with no one to help her with all her

problems. That's pretty strong incentive to stop the worst of

her misbehavior toward me.

I think you should assume that your nada isn't going to change

for the better. If you do manage to train her to treat you

better, then it will be a pleasant surprise. If that never

happens, you won't be disappointed if you weren't hoping for it

to begin with.

At 09:41 PM 04/14/2011 bpdhope4us wrote:

>I see a lot of references to nadas not changing recently. I'm

>just curious, do any nadas change? I know it says they do in

>SWOE... I guess if nadas changed, KOs wouldn't need a support

>group eh?

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Why would they change, what they are doing " works for them. . . "

My T always uses that phrase " works for them. " It means they get what they

want, the reaction they are hoping for from their terrible, hurtful

behavior. For exampe - rage uncontrollably - and people give into your

demands. Play the victim like a waif - and people don't hold you to your

responsabilities or do things for you that you can do yourself. Pick on

people and bully the - and people bow to you and give you a sense of power

or give you a wide berth and you interrpret it as being because you are a

queen rather than a bitch.

I think what hurts us, (or at least hurt me) is that when I set boundaries

with my nada, she just found other people to fill in the gaps I left in her

life. Her alternative would have been to listen and change. She of course

took the easy route. I believe to a BPD, all people are replacable. But

their illness is not. They cling to it because they believe it makes them

different, unique and perfect. At least my nada did.

>

>

> Everybody changes. If what you're asking is whether they stop

> acting like they have BPD, I think the answer to that is a

> pretty resounding " NO! " There's very little chance of their

> mental health problems improving because getting the kind of

> help that would allow them to improve isn't something they want

> to do. They won't/can't admit to having a problem and if you

> don't admit you have a problem, you can't ask for or accept help

> with that problem. In fact, they mostly seem to fight any

> attempts to help them with it.

>

> There are occasionally people who get treated for BPD and do

> improve, but from what I can tell, they're usually young women

> whose parents recognize a problem and get them started on

> treatment early, before they're adults and before their brains

> are set into bad patterns.

>

> If what you're asking is whether they can change in smaller

> ways, I think that has a somewhat more positive answer. My nada

> has learned to treat me better than she used to. I don't think

> she's learned why I won't associate with her if she does the

> things I won't put up with, but she's gotten the idea that she

> has to avoid doing them or I will leave/hang up the phone.

> Despite her better behavior, it is quite obvious to me that she

> has BPD. She simply wants things from me more than she wants to

> misbehave around me. I think that having my sister disappear

> completely from her life made her realize that I could do it too

> and that would leave her with no one to help her with all her

> problems. That's pretty strong incentive to stop the worst of

> her misbehavior toward me.

>

> I think you should assume that your nada isn't going to change

> for the better. If you do manage to train her to treat you

> better, then it will be a pleasant surprise. If that never

> happens, you won't be disappointed if you weren't hoping for it

> to begin with.

>

>

> At 09:41 PM 04/14/2011 bpdhope4us wrote:

> >I see a lot of references to nadas not changing recently. I'm

> >just curious, do any nadas change? I know it says they do in

> >SWOE... I guess if nadas changed, KOs wouldn't need a support

> >group eh?

>

> --

> Katrina

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I honestly don t know the answer to this one. My nada displayed brief,

incremental changes while with one therapist. She had to be forced by

her psychiatrist at the threat of no more Xanix unless you go to start

seeing him at all. The T told me that she was BPD, and that his

expectation was that she might change breifly, in small increments, but

would not show any orders of magnitude change.

He was correct.

Still, I refuse to give up hope. I think they can change, they can

heal, they can find ways to cope and react in functional ways. They

mostly don t, but I choose to, insist upon, believing that it is

possible.

I m searching the net for data on the % of BP s who do show marked

recovery. Havent found it yet.

But some really interesting Q and A from a Dr who treats BP here

http://www.borderlinepersonalitytoday.com/main/markovitz_index.htm

<http://www.borderlinepersonalitytoday.com/main/markovitz_index.htm>

It is a cruel disorder. In many ways, it is the emotional equivalent of

Alzhiemers. Except that instead of losing our parents minds gradually

late in life, we lose our parent' s emotional presence from early on.

Just as Alzheimers family s struggle with the guilt of feeling it would

be easier if they died, so we deal with the guilty realization that it

would be easier to be an orphan than to be a KO.

Doug

> > >I see a lot of references to nadas not changing recently. I'm

> > >just curious, do any nadas change? I know it says they do in

> > >SWOE... I guess if nadas changed, KOs wouldn't need a support

> > >group eh?

> >

> > --

> > Katrina

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ever had psych? Remember stimulus and responce? A rat in a Skinner box

will starve to death while hitting the pedal for cocaine over and over.

If they push our buttons and get what they desire, they ll keep hitting

it. If they don t, they will find another pedal to press.

Perhaps they have to hit a bottom, like an addict, before they are ready

for change. But they will sure keep doing what works for them. They

learn to be " functionally dysfunctional " . It works, not in a healthy

way, but it works, and it is all they know, so as long as they get some

semblance of what they want they will continue the same behaviors.

Sadly, the world is full of people primed to be the object of a BP s

manipulation. If only they would run out of them, they might be ready

to try a different thing.

Before you can get to the witch, you have to defeat the flying monkeys.

Doug

> > >I see a lot of references to nadas not changing recently. I'm

> > >just curious, do any nadas change? I know it says they do in

> > >SWOE... I guess if nadas changed, KOs wouldn't need a support

> > >group eh?

> >

> > --

> > Katrina

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>