Nada's threatening to kill herself - apparently it's my fault.

[Guest guest]

Nada and I recently had a short phone conversation where she immediately started

attacking me and I finally said that I was done with this relationship and hung

up on her. My sister, in a round about way, tried to explain to nada why I am

ending everything (due to 30 years of her abusive treatment and manipulation)

and she apparently crumbled to the floor and was crying so hard that my step-dad

had to call my sister to find out what she said to her. Nada is threatening

suicide and step-dad is angry at me, blaming me. He thinks nobody should say

anything to her about how we really feel about her because of her " fragile "

state and that we needed to wait until she can handle us telling her how we

feel.

Problem is, she will never be out of her " fragile " state, and he doesn't see

that. Am I supposed to continue being her punching bag until she dies???

Step-dad doesn't believe anything that I say happened. He says he lived in the

same house and never saw anything happen and that she was a perfectly normal

mother, though my siblings have backed me up and agree with me. He doesn't get

that she only did and said her abusive things when he wasn't around to see or

hear it, so now he thinks I'm the one being cruel and heartless and that I am

making things up. Nada's therapist thinks I'm being cruel too. (He doesn't

think she has BPD, only PTSD, which is crazy because she has exhibited every

single symptom of BPD!)

I can't afford to see a therapist myself. Will there ever come a point where I

will not feel guilty for protecting myself and my kids, because my step-dad (who

I love very much) sure is making me feel like I'm the one with the mental

illness.

[Guest guest]

BLETCH!

I grew up around " Suicide Princess " too!

IT'S NOT JUST YOU1!!!!

Drugs, alcohol, knives, guns, perspection RX's... you name it... Nada felt

ignored? She'd cut herself. Nada was bored? She'd OD. Nada was missing a

pink sock? Bring out the guns!!!!

You get the point. Anything, REAL OR IMAGINED was an excuse to 'spice up the

day' with a suicide threat! I thought this behavior was normal... until my then

8-year old walked in on her after she OD'd one time and when the ambulance came

and had to inverview HIM, I was done.

She continued to try the middle of the night suicide calls with everyone in her

FOO (they know she's crazy, but they still cater to her and blame me) and she

tried it with a couple of my friends whose numbers she stole off my cell

phone... but they hung up on her.

I spent 4 of my 30 months in therapy talking about, " when she finally does it,

now what? " stuff... bascially it came to this. She's crazy. If/when she kills

herself, that's her choice. IT's a bad choice... but ultimately, it's her

choice to make. I will either know about it or I won't. They will find the

body or they won't. But there is NOTHING *I* can do to stop her from doing

what she's going to do. And I am not responsible for her actions. PERIOD.

Now, irony of ironies... she's been seeing another therapist ... she's in/out as

they all are... but this one seems to be making tiny bits of headway... Nada is

actually acknowleding some things... anyway... the subject of all her suicide

stuff came up 2 weeks ago... and I said this: My whole life you've threatened

to kill yourself. That let me know that I wasn't worth living for. So, here is

where it is. You screwed me up big time. But I'm better now. So, should you

choose to kill yourself, I've spent 4 months of therapy time talking about this

possibility ... if you decide to kill yourself - go right ahead. I can't stop

you. But know I will NEVER play the suicide - guilt ridden - daughter to your

insanity.

She broke down. Oh well.

You can't keep HER from being crazy... but you can keep your kids from finding

an OD'd grandma in her bedroom. The choice is yours.

Lynnette

>

> Nada and I recently had a short phone conversation where she immediately

started attacking me and I finally said that I was done with this relationship

and hung up on her. My sister, in a round about way, tried to explain to nada

why I am ending everything (due to 30 years of her abusive treatment and

manipulation) and she apparently crumbled to the floor and was crying so hard

that my step-dad had to call my sister to find out what she said to her. Nada

is threatening suicide and step-dad is angry at me, blaming me. He thinks

nobody should say anything to her about how we really feel about her because of

her " fragile " state and that we needed to wait until she can handle us telling

her how we feel.

>

> Problem is, she will never be out of her " fragile " state, and he doesn't see

that. Am I supposed to continue being her punching bag until she dies???

Step-dad doesn't believe anything that I say happened. He says he lived in the

same house and never saw anything happen and that she was a perfectly normal

mother, though my siblings have backed me up and agree with me. He doesn't get

that she only did and said her abusive things when he wasn't around to see or

hear it, so now he thinks I'm the one being cruel and heartless and that I am

making things up. Nada's therapist thinks I'm being cruel too. (He doesn't

think she has BPD, only PTSD, which is crazy because she has exhibited every

single symptom of BPD!)

>

> I can't afford to see a therapist myself. Will there ever come a point where

I will not feel guilty for protecting myself and my kids, because my step-dad

(who I love very much) sure is making me feel like I'm the one with the mental

illness.

>

[Guest guest]

I was going to say BULLSHIT, but I suppose BLETCH works as well.

Some comments interspersed below.

>

> >

> > Nada and I recently had a short phone conversation where she

immediately started attacking me and I finally said that I was done with

this relationship and hung up on her. My sister, in a round about way,

tried to explain to nada why I am ending everything (due to 30 years of

her abusive treatment and manipulation) and she apparently crumbled to

the floor and was crying so hard

Typical Nada histrionic behaviors. I lived with that until I got out of

the house just as soon as I was out of High School. I got tastes of

it across the ensuing decades until nada s death 2 years ago. The

desired response is, no matter what, I ll just back off so as not to

upset your fragile state, and then you may do whatever you like. At

this point, I would re iteriate BULLSHIT.

that my step-dad had to call my sister to find out what she said to

her. Nada is threatening suicide and step-dad is angry at me, blaming

me. He thinks nobody should say anything to her about how we really feel

about her because of her " fragile " state and that we needed to wait

until she can handle us telling her how we feel.

> >

> > Problem is, she will never be out of her " fragile " state, and he

doesn't see that.

No , she never will, because it is not fragility, it is FOG. It is her

way of manipulation. And as long as it works, she will continue to use

it. When it does not, she will try something else. Step dad is your

basic flying monkey. He is not ready to face up to her illness and deal

with it. He chooses to be FOGged by it, and so will try to extend her

manipulations to everyone else so that she will act calm for a while.

Until something else doesnt go her way, and then has another " spell " .

In short, he wants the family to keep Walking on Eggshells. If he

chooses to do so, you can t stop him. But you are not obligated to do

so yourself.

Am I supposed to continue being her punching bag until she dies???

Step-dad doesn't believe anything that I say happened. He says he lived

in the same house and never saw anything happen and that she was a

perfectly normal mother, though my siblings have backed me up and agree

with me. He doesn't get that she only did and said her abusive things

when he wasn't around to see or hear it, so now he thinks I'm the one

being cruel and heartless and that I am making things up. Nada's

therapist thinks I'm being cruel too. (He doesn't think she has BPD,

only PTSD, which is crazy because she has exhibited every single symptom

of BPD!)

Does not really matter if it is BPD or PTSD, if she is cruel,

manipulative , and abusive, you are quite right to do what you must to

protect yourself and keep yourself healthy. One paramount thing to keep

in mind is that BP s lie. We can call it gaslighting to make it sound

technical, rebuilding a reality that did not really occur. But the net

effect is the same: They LIE. I say that as a preface to this. I

have, over the course of several years on this group, and in my own life

with my nada, heard over and over, Nada telling a KO what the therapist

said about how right and good Nada was, and how mean and abusive the KO

was.

Based on that, and based on my own extensive experience with Therapists,

let me say it would be the rare Therapist who actually says the things

Nada tells the world and the family they said. Nada lies. You know

this, right ? She lies to step dad about her treatment of you, hides it

from him, and is content to let him think you are the one who is crazy.

Does it come as a suprise then that she is probably lying about what her

T said? Since you have heard from Step dad the HE thinks she has PTSD (

by the way, a lot of BP s are, in fact, suffering from PTSD as well,

that does not preclude them being Borderline.) , so what? He is not

her therapist. He is her husband. I d bet long odds, without you

having said so, that you heard from nada, or from others to whom nada

told the tale, that her T thinks she is the victim and you the

antagonist.

This is VERY common. My Ah Ha moment in reading SWOE for the first time

was the realization that Borderlines are masterful at making it seem

everyone around them is crazy, when in fact they are the source of the

craziness. My own nada spun a tale that her Psychiatrist had a "

woman " in the room on thier sessions. She asked nada some questions,

listened to her tale of woe, then told her " You are a very wise

woman. "

That woman never existed.

Rule of thumb: Never, ever, EVER believe anything a Borderline tells

you that her Dr, or her Therapist said, unless she is willing to give

both you and the health care provider permission to speak about her, and

you check it with them, or hear it directly from them. Nada may in fact

be gaslighting, having convinced herself that OF COURSE the T said she

was the victim, and you are mean. That is her template. That does not

mean the T actually said that.

In fact, the T may have said, do you feel that your family is

responsible for your unhappy feelings? and nada wrote it down as: Your

family is mean to you, that is why you re unhappy.

> > I can't afford to see a therapist myself. Will there ever come a

point where I will not feel guilty for protecting myself and my kids,

because my step-dad (who I love very much) sure is making me feel like

I'm the one with the mental illness.

Understand if you cannot afford counseling. If you have not done so,

start to read and educate yourself. Start with SWOE. There are places

you can get some degree of counsel, a pastor or rabbi, pastoral

counseling services at hospitals, Family services thru Goodwill

sometimes has a counselor available on a sliding scale basis. Some

faith based counseling services through churches have professional

counselors available and a sliding scale. You may not be able to afford

it, but don t assume that if you want it. Contact some places and find

out if they have income adjusted scales.

You are not crazy. Well, you may be! Many of us KO s do have our

little issues! But trust your instinct. You know who is the source

of the chaos of your family, and it is not you.

Doug

[Guest guest]

(aging myself) " Bletch " = " Bill the Cat "

aka: How I feel after an encounter with Nada.

LYnnette ;o)

> > >

> > > Nada and I recently had a short phone conversation where she

> immediately started attacking me and I finally said that I was done with

> this relationship and hung up on her. My sister, in a round about way,

> tried to explain to nada why I am ending everything (due to 30 years of

> her abusive treatment and manipulation) and she apparently crumbled to

> the floor and was crying so hard

>

> Typical Nada histrionic behaviors. I lived with that until I got out of

> the house just as soon as I was out of High School. I got tastes of

> it across the ensuing decades until nada s death 2 years ago. The

> desired response is, no matter what, I ll just back off so as not to

> upset your fragile state, and then you may do whatever you like. At

> this point, I would re iteriate BULLSHIT.

>

> that my step-dad had to call my sister to find out what she said to

> her. Nada is threatening suicide and step-dad is angry at me, blaming

> me. He thinks nobody should say anything to her about how we really feel

> about her because of her " fragile " state and that we needed to wait

> until she can handle us telling her how we feel.

> > >

> > > Problem is, she will never be out of her " fragile " state, and he

> doesn't see that.

>

> No , she never will, because it is not fragility, it is FOG. It is her

> way of manipulation. And as long as it works, she will continue to use

> it. When it does not, she will try something else. Step dad is your

> basic flying monkey. He is not ready to face up to her illness and deal

> with it. He chooses to be FOGged by it, and so will try to extend her

> manipulations to everyone else so that she will act calm for a while.

> Until something else doesnt go her way, and then has another " spell " .

> In short, he wants the family to keep Walking on Eggshells. If he

> chooses to do so, you can t stop him. But you are not obligated to do

> so yourself.

>

> Am I supposed to continue being her punching bag until she dies???

> Step-dad doesn't believe anything that I say happened. He says he lived

> in the same house and never saw anything happen and that she was a

> perfectly normal mother, though my siblings have backed me up and agree

> with me. He doesn't get that she only did and said her abusive things

> when he wasn't around to see or hear it, so now he thinks I'm the one

> being cruel and heartless and that I am making things up. Nada's

> therapist thinks I'm being cruel too. (He doesn't think she has BPD,

> only PTSD, which is crazy because she has exhibited every single symptom

> of BPD!)

>

>

> Does not really matter if it is BPD or PTSD, if she is cruel,

> manipulative , and abusive, you are quite right to do what you must to

> protect yourself and keep yourself healthy. One paramount thing to keep

> in mind is that BP s lie. We can call it gaslighting to make it sound

> technical, rebuilding a reality that did not really occur. But the net

> effect is the same: They LIE. I say that as a preface to this. I

> have, over the course of several years on this group, and in my own life

> with my nada, heard over and over, Nada telling a KO what the therapist

> said about how right and good Nada was, and how mean and abusive the KO

> was.

>

> Based on that, and based on my own extensive experience with Therapists,

> let me say it would be the rare Therapist who actually says the things

> Nada tells the world and the family they said. Nada lies. You know

> this, right ? She lies to step dad about her treatment of you, hides it

> from him, and is content to let him think you are the one who is crazy.

> Does it come as a suprise then that she is probably lying about what her

> T said? Since you have heard from Step dad the HE thinks she has PTSD (

> by the way, a lot of BP s are, in fact, suffering from PTSD as well,

> that does not preclude them being Borderline.) , so what? He is not

> her therapist. He is her husband. I d bet long odds, without you

> having said so, that you heard from nada, or from others to whom nada

> told the tale, that her T thinks she is the victim and you the

> antagonist.

>

> This is VERY common. My Ah Ha moment in reading SWOE for the first time

> was the realization that Borderlines are masterful at making it seem

> everyone around them is crazy, when in fact they are the source of the

> craziness. My own nada spun a tale that her Psychiatrist had a "

> woman " in the room on thier sessions. She asked nada some questions,

> listened to her tale of woe, then told her " You are a very wise

> woman. "

>

> That woman never existed.

>

> Rule of thumb: Never, ever, EVER believe anything a Borderline tells

> you that her Dr, or her Therapist said, unless she is willing to give

> both you and the health care provider permission to speak about her, and

> you check it with them, or hear it directly from them. Nada may in fact

> be gaslighting, having convinced herself that OF COURSE the T said she

> was the victim, and you are mean. That is her template. That does not

> mean the T actually said that.

>

> In fact, the T may have said, do you feel that your family is

> responsible for your unhappy feelings? and nada wrote it down as: Your

> family is mean to you, that is why you re unhappy.

>

>

> > > I can't afford to see a therapist myself. Will there ever come a

> point where I will not feel guilty for protecting myself and my kids,

> because my step-dad (who I love very much) sure is making me feel like

> I'm the one with the mental illness.

>

> Understand if you cannot afford counseling. If you have not done so,

> start to read and educate yourself. Start with SWOE. There are places

> you can get some degree of counsel, a pastor or rabbi, pastoral

> counseling services at hospitals, Family services thru Goodwill

> sometimes has a counselor available on a sliding scale basis. Some

> faith based counseling services through churches have professional

> counselors available and a sliding scale. You may not be able to afford

> it, but don t assume that if you want it. Contact some places and find

> out if they have income adjusted scales.

>

>

>

> You are not crazy. Well, you may be! Many of us KO s do have our

> little issues! But trust your instinct. You know who is the source

> of the chaos of your family, and it is not you.

>

>

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

1. The fact that your mother has PTSD does not mean that she does not have BPD.

In fact, PTSD is one of the risk factors for BPD.

2. Any personality disorder (like BPD) can and almost always will make any Axis

I disorder (such as PTSD) worse. So, her BPD may in fact be making her PTSD

manifest much more vividly, and if a therapist is not experienced in working

with patients with personality disorders, he or she may in fact miss the

personality disorder in the shadow of Axis I disorders (such as PTSD, major

depression, schizophrenia, etc.).

3. Allowing yourself to be abused, even if it means that might prevent the other

person from killing themselves (which is NOT ever the case anyways), is NOT an

acceptable solution to the problem.

4. The next time she tells you or your step-father tells you that she is

threatening suicide, calmly inform them that you are going to hang up and call

911, because she is potentially a danger to herself and you have a moral and

legal obligation to prevent her from harming herself or others. Virtually all

states have laws which allow for involuntary commitment of persons who are a

danger to themselves or others to a psychiatric facility (the length of time

varies among states, but is often 72 hours). I can tell you from experience that

this is likely to cause a dramatic reduction in her threats.

I hope there will come a time for you when you will stop feeling guilty. That

time has come for me - too many bricks and straws have broken this camel's back.

I feel no guilt, whatsoever. I feel sadness, sorrow, pity, frustration, but no

more guilt, not even one tiny bit. I cannot cut my mother out of my life because

I am an only child and I feel pity, sadness and some measure of empathy for her,

because frankly as horrible as it is to be the target of her rage and craziness,

it has to be equally horrible to live with that rage/craziness/emptiness/etc.

every day (at least I can block her out and get away from her for periods of

time, but she cannot block herself out or get away from herself).

You can and should protect yourself and your children. You have an absolute

obligation (biological, moral, and legal) to care for and protect your children

(unless they are criminals, in which case the state will assume custody of

them), you have NO such obligation when it comes to your parents. Do not allow

your mother or any of her flying monkeys to make you lose sight of this

important fact or question your sanity.

Best wishes,

Arianna

>

> Nada and I recently had a short phone conversation where she immediately

started attacking me and I finally said that I was done with this relationship

and hung up on her. My sister, in a round about way, tried to explain to nada

why I am ending everything (due to 30 years of her abusive treatment and

manipulation) and she apparently crumbled to the floor and was crying so hard

that my step-dad had to call my sister to find out what she said to her. Nada

is threatening suicide and step-dad is angry at me, blaming me. He thinks

nobody should say anything to her about how we really feel about her because of

her " fragile " state and that we needed to wait until she can handle us telling

her how we feel.

>

> Problem is, she will never be out of her " fragile " state, and he doesn't see

that. Am I supposed to continue being her punching bag until she dies???

Step-dad doesn't believe anything that I say happened. He says he lived in the

same house and never saw anything happen and that she was a perfectly normal

mother, though my siblings have backed me up and agree with me. He doesn't get

that she only did and said her abusive things when he wasn't around to see or

hear it, so now he thinks I'm the one being cruel and heartless and that I am

making things up. Nada's therapist thinks I'm being cruel too. (He doesn't

think she has BPD, only PTSD, which is crazy because she has exhibited every

single symptom of BPD!)

>

> I can't afford to see a therapist myself. Will there ever come a point where

I will not feel guilty for protecting myself and my kids, because my step-dad

(who I love very much) sure is making me feel like I'm the one with the mental

illness.

>

[Guest guest]

I second Arianna s notes. To elaborate, re the call 911 advice:

My nada used suicidal ideations or pseudo attempts to manipulate from the time I

was 14, until a day when I was in my 50s.

She was at the Dr, and started one of her crying events, coupled with, a

suicidal ideation. IE, I d be better off dead.

The nurse got the Dr, who got on the phone with her Psychiatrist immediatly,

while in the room with her, and discussed what she had said, and her apparent

emotional state. Result? 24 hour involuntary committment for observation. Nada

furious at both Dr s the rest of her life.

And not one more word out of her using the suicide manipulations, ever, till the

day she died.

Just a curious observation.

Doug

> >

> > Nada and I recently had a short phone conversation where she immediately

started attacking me and I finally said that I was done with this relationship

and hung up on her. My sister, in a round about way, tried to explain to nada

why I am ending everything (due to 30 years of her abusive treatment and

manipulation) and she apparently crumbled to the floor and was crying so hard

that my step-dad had to call my sister to find out what she said to her. Nada

is threatening suicide and step-dad is angry at me, blaming me. He thinks

nobody should say anything to her about how we really feel about her because of

her " fragile " state and that we needed to wait until she can handle us telling

her how we feel.

> >

> > Problem is, she will never be out of her " fragile " state, and he doesn't see

that. Am I supposed to continue being her punching bag until she dies???

Step-dad doesn't believe anything that I say happened. He says he lived in the

same house and never saw anything happen and that she was a perfectly normal

mother, though my siblings have backed me up and agree with me. He doesn't get

that she only did and said her abusive things when he wasn't around to see or

hear it, so now he thinks I'm the one being cruel and heartless and that I am

making things up. Nada's therapist thinks I'm being cruel too. (He doesn't

think she has BPD, only PTSD, which is crazy because she has exhibited every

single symptom of BPD!)

> >

> > I can't afford to see a therapist myself. Will there ever come a point

where I will not feel guilty for protecting myself and my kids, because my

step-dad (who I love very much) sure is making me feel like I'm the one with the

mental illness.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

110% agree!

My therapist gave me the same advice. I eventually told Nada what " The Plan "

was next time she even PEEPED the word " suicide. "

Funny how she's now managed to keep that fun part of BPD under wraps over the

last few months.

Lynnette

> > >

> > > Nada and I recently had a short phone conversation where she immediately

started attacking me and I finally said that I was done with this relationship

and hung up on her. My sister, in a round about way, tried to explain to nada

why I am ending everything (due to 30 years of her abusive treatment and

manipulation) and she apparently crumbled to the floor and was crying so hard

that my step-dad had to call my sister to find out what she said to her. Nada

is threatening suicide and step-dad is angry at me, blaming me. He thinks

nobody should say anything to her about how we really feel about her because of

her " fragile " state and that we needed to wait until she can handle us telling

her how we feel.

> > >

> > > Problem is, she will never be out of her " fragile " state, and he doesn't

see that. Am I supposed to continue being her punching bag until she dies???

Step-dad doesn't believe anything that I say happened. He says he lived in the

same house and never saw anything happen and that she was a perfectly normal

mother, though my siblings have backed me up and agree with me. He doesn't get

that she only did and said her abusive things when he wasn't around to see or

hear it, so now he thinks I'm the one being cruel and heartless and that I am

making things up. Nada's therapist thinks I'm being cruel too. (He doesn't

think she has BPD, only PTSD, which is crazy because she has exhibited every

single symptom of BPD!)

> > >

> > > I can't afford to see a therapist myself. Will there ever come a point

where I will not feel guilty for protecting myself and my kids, because my

step-dad (who I love very much) sure is making me feel like I'm the one with the

mental illness.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I just recently had my Aha moment when I

first starting reading about BPD a few weeks ago and am new to the whole BPD

stuff (not the suffering - that has been 25 years or more, just the realization

of what her illness could be). I have actually met one on one with Nadas

therapist and did hear these things first hand. I asked him if he thought Nada

had mental illness, to which he replied no, just PTSD which is not a mental

illness. I don't doubt that she does have PTSD. She had a mentally ill mother

herself. But her therapist doesn't seem to think that there is even a

possibility of BPD coming into to play here and that me and my siblings just

need to be more supportive of her. The 911 suggestion I think will come in very

handy, especially since her brother in law is the chief of police. Thank you, I

would have never thought of that.

> > > >

> > > > Nada and I recently had a short phone conversation where she

> > immediately started attacking me and I finally said that I was done with

> > this relationship and hung up on her. My sister, in a round about way,

> > tried to explain to nada why I am ending everything (due to 30 years of

> > her abusive treatment and manipulation) and she apparently crumbled to

> > the floor and was crying so hard

> >

> > Typical Nada histrionic behaviors. I lived with that until I got out of

> > the house just as soon as I was out of High School. I got tastes of

> > it across the ensuing decades until nada s death 2 years ago. The

> > desired response is, no matter what, I ll just back off so as not to

> > upset your fragile state, and then you may do whatever you like. At

> > this point, I would re iteriate BULLSHIT.

> >

> > that my step-dad had to call my sister to find out what she said to

> > her. Nada is threatening suicide and step-dad is angry at me, blaming

> > me. He thinks nobody should say anything to her about how we really feel

> > about her because of her " fragile " state and that we needed to wait

> > until she can handle us telling her how we feel.

> > > >

> > > > Problem is, she will never be out of her " fragile " state, and he

> > doesn't see that.

> >

> > No , she never will, because it is not fragility, it is FOG. It is her

> > way of manipulation. And as long as it works, she will continue to use

> > it. When it does not, she will try something else. Step dad is your

> > basic flying monkey. He is not ready to face up to her illness and deal

> > with it. He chooses to be FOGged by it, and so will try to extend her

> > manipulations to everyone else so that she will act calm for a while.

> > Until something else doesnt go her way, and then has another " spell " .

> > In short, he wants the family to keep Walking on Eggshells. If he

> > chooses to do so, you can t stop him. But you are not obligated to do

> > so yourself.

> >

> > Am I supposed to continue being her punching bag until she dies???

> > Step-dad doesn't believe anything that I say happened. He says he lived

> > in the same house and never saw anything happen and that she was a

> > perfectly normal mother, though my siblings have backed me up and agree

> > with me. He doesn't get that she only did and said her abusive things

> > when he wasn't around to see or hear it, so now he thinks I'm the one

> > being cruel and heartless and that I am making things up. Nada's

> > therapist thinks I'm being cruel too. (He doesn't think she has BPD,

> > only PTSD, which is crazy because she has exhibited every single symptom

> > of BPD!)

> >

> >

> > Does not really matter if it is BPD or PTSD, if she is cruel,

> > manipulative , and abusive, you are quite right to do what you must to

> > protect yourself and keep yourself healthy. One paramount thing to keep

> > in mind is that BP s lie. We can call it gaslighting to make it sound

> > technical, rebuilding a reality that did not really occur. But the net

> > effect is the same: They LIE. I say that as a preface to this. I

> > have, over the course of several years on this group, and in my own life

> > with my nada, heard over and over, Nada telling a KO what the therapist

> > said about how right and good Nada was, and how mean and abusive the KO

> > was.

> >

> > Based on that, and based on my own extensive experience with Therapists,

> > let me say it would be the rare Therapist who actually says the things

> > Nada tells the world and the family they said. Nada lies. You know

> > this, right ? She lies to step dad about her treatment of you, hides it

> > from him, and is content to let him think you are the one who is crazy.

> > Does it come as a suprise then that she is probably lying about what her

> > T said? Since you have heard from Step dad the HE thinks she has PTSD (

> > by the way, a lot of BP s are, in fact, suffering from PTSD as well,

> > that does not preclude them being Borderline.) , so what? He is not

> > her therapist. He is her husband. I d bet long odds, without you

> > having said so, that you heard from nada, or from others to whom nada

> > told the tale, that her T thinks she is the victim and you the

> > antagonist.

> >

> > This is VERY common. My Ah Ha moment in reading SWOE for the first time

> > was the realization that Borderlines are masterful at making it seem

> > everyone around them is crazy, when in fact they are the source of the

> > craziness. My own nada spun a tale that her Psychiatrist had a "

> > woman " in the room on thier sessions. She asked nada some questions,

> > listened to her tale of woe, then told her " You are a very wise

> > woman. "

> >

> > That woman never existed.

> >

> > Rule of thumb: Never, ever, EVER believe anything a Borderline tells

> > you that her Dr, or her Therapist said, unless she is willing to give

> > both you and the health care provider permission to speak about her, and

> > you check it with them, or hear it directly from them. Nada may in fact

> > be gaslighting, having convinced herself that OF COURSE the T said she

> > was the victim, and you are mean. That is her template. That does not

> > mean the T actually said that.

> >

> > In fact, the T may have said, do you feel that your family is

> > responsible for your unhappy feelings? and nada wrote it down as: Your

> > family is mean to you, that is why you re unhappy.

> >

> >

> > > > I can't afford to see a therapist myself. Will there ever come a

> > point where I will not feel guilty for protecting myself and my kids,

> > because my step-dad (who I love very much) sure is making me feel like

> > I'm the one with the mental illness.

> >

> > Understand if you cannot afford counseling. If you have not done so,

> > start to read and educate yourself. Start with SWOE. There are places

> > you can get some degree of counsel, a pastor or rabbi, pastoral

> > counseling services at hospitals, Family services thru Goodwill

> > sometimes has a counselor available on a sliding scale basis. Some

> > faith based counseling services through churches have professional

> > counselors available and a sliding scale. You may not be able to afford

> > it, but don t assume that if you want it. Contact some places and find

> > out if they have income adjusted scales.

> >

> >

> >

> > You are not crazy. Well, you may be! Many of us KO s do have our

> > little issues! But trust your instinct. You know who is the source

> > of the chaos of your family, and it is not you.

> >

> >

> >

> > Doug

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

The statement made by the therapist is casting a shadow on his qualifications,

knowledge base, and competence. It is ignorant (to put it mildly) for a mental

health professional to state that PTSD is not a mental illness. It is like a

pediatrician or internist stating that strep throat is not a pysical illness.

PTSD is absolutely a mental illness, classified under Anxiety Disorders. It can

be an acute illness or a chronic illness and requires treatment. Unlike some

other mental illnesses which are largely incurable (just like there are physical

illnesses that are incurable), PTSD is generally curable with the correct

treatment and support, but it is still very much a mental illness.

Arianna

>

> Thanks for the feedback everyone. I just recently had my Aha moment when I

first starting reading about BPD a few weeks ago and am new to the whole BPD

stuff (not the suffering - that has been 25 years or more, just the realization

of what her illness could be). I have actually met one on one with Nadas

therapist and did hear these things first hand. I asked him if he thought Nada

had mental illness, to which he replied no, just PTSD which is not a mental

illness. I don't doubt that she does have PTSD. She had a mentally ill mother

herself. But her therapist doesn't seem to think that there is even a

possibility of BPD coming into to play here and that me and my siblings just

need to be more supportive of her. The 911 suggestion I think will come in very

handy, especially since her brother in law is the chief of police. Thank you, I

would have never thought of that.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Holy crap!

Doug, my mother uses the same ideations and no one calls her on it or sees what

it has done to me, except my therapist.

I spent what should have been my fun and crazy years, 18-21, making sure she

didn't act on those ideations: " I would be better of dead " " I wish I had never

been born " " no one cares if I live or die " blah blah blah. Not direct suicide

threats of " I am going to kill myself " but clearly suicidal thoughts. My every

waking free moment was dedicated to her, and I was made to feel guilty and sad

and angry at myself for being young, smart, and pretty and having a whole bright

future ahead of me. A future she would have preferred I threw away to help her

be miserable.

At this point if she said something like that, I would just have to say: I will

not be around you while you talk or hint about killing yourself. I am leaving.

And if she threatened to kill herself directly, I would just call 911 and leave

it to the professionals.

Like you said: bullshit.

[Guest guest]

After a perfecltly lovely Easter in my home ,surrounded by family and friends

and unfortunately included my Nada. She has been on a rampage ever since. Are

the rages in indirect proportion to how much you do for them?  I have gone

through the suicide threats,the mysterious ailments,the hyperventilating ,the

dizziness.Unfortunately all doctors according to her are idiots. Today she  has

come up with some new affliction (a rash) and insists that I have to take her

here and there to take care of her. When I offer a couple of time options, she

refuses and insists on knowing my schedule minute by minute and slamming the

phone when I refuse to tell her. She accuses me of depriving her of her car -she

is 93 and deaf- of being bored -she has cut off her few friends.When does the

guilt end? how do you get to not feeling such a burden ? I too am an only child

and she is ruining my life,which is so happy otherwise. HELP!!!

[Guest guest]

I agree, I too would view such a therapist with great skepticism and seriously

question his or her training and qualifications.

Therapists can range widely in their training and qualifications, from a great

deal to none at all.

Psychiatrists: have a full MD degree plus a PhD in psychology, and are the only

mental-health professionals qualified to prescribe drug treatment for mental

illnesses.

Psychologists: have a PhD in psychology and a state license. They provide

psychotherapy and other types of talk therapy, marriage counseling, family

counseling, and do testing and assessing of patients. Will refer patients to

psychiatrists for drug therapy.

Marriage, Family, Child Counselors/Therapists: have a Masters Degree in

counseling, have completed a minimum number of supervised hours in practice and

have a state license.

Licensed Clinical Social Workers: have a Masters Degree in social work and a

state license. Some have at least some training in psychology.

Pastoral Counselor, and other " Therapists " : have no degree and no state

license, and may or may not have training in psychology or theology. Some

Pastoral Counselors are certified by the American Association of Pastoral

Counselors.

Basically, you have to be a good consumer and make sure that the person calling

himself or herself a " therapist " actually has any real training or

qualifications at all.

-Annie

> >

> > Thanks for the feedback everyone. I just recently had my Aha moment when I

first starting reading about BPD a few weeks ago and am new to the whole BPD

stuff (not the suffering - that has been 25 years or more, just the realization

of what her illness could be). I have actually met one on one with Nadas

therapist and did hear these things first hand. I asked him if he thought Nada

had mental illness, to which he replied no, just PTSD which is not a mental

illness. I don't doubt that she does have PTSD. She had a mentally ill mother

herself. But her therapist doesn't seem to think that there is even a

possibility of BPD coming into to play here and that me and my siblings just

need to be more supportive of her. The 911 suggestion I think will come in very

handy, especially since her brother in law is the chief of police. Thank you, I

would have never thought of that.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Strangely enough a former pastor was the only person I have ever heard of who

actually called nada on her behavior during a couples therapy session with my

father years ago.

I think it just goes to show that some people are safe and some are not.

> > >

> > > Thanks for the feedback everyone. I just recently had my Aha moment when

I first starting reading about BPD a few weeks ago and am new to the whole BPD

stuff (not the suffering - that has been 25 years or more, just the realization

of what her illness could be). I have actually met one on one with Nadas

therapist and did hear these things first hand. I asked him if he thought Nada

had mental illness, to which he replied no, just PTSD which is not a mental

illness. I don't doubt that she does have PTSD. She had a mentally ill mother

herself. But her therapist doesn't seem to think that there is even a

possibility of BPD coming into to play here and that me and my siblings just

need to be more supportive of her. The 911 suggestion I think will come in very

handy, especially since her brother in law is the chief of police. Thank you, I

would have never thought of that.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>