Re: Nada s , Suicide , and Tough realities

[Guest guest]

I agree, I think that suicide threats should be responded to with a phone call

to 911.

If nada is just being manipulative, then, having the EMTs show up in an

ambulance to take her to the emergency room whether she wants to go or not, is

not what she had in mind. Nada will probably decide that threatening suicide is

not getting her the attention from you that she's after, and instead such

behavior has a unwanted, negative, embarrassing consequence.

If nada is genuinely suicidal and is making a real attempt to kill herself,

then, you as her adult child are not professionally trained or equipped to deal

with such an emergency situation and you need to call 911 so that nada CAN

receive professional emergency help ASAP.

And I agree that if someone you love is obsessively determined to kill himself

or herself, there is nothing you can really do to prevent it. Its outside of

your control, and a tragedy, but its not your fault and its not appropriate to

feel any guilt over it.

-Annie

>

>

> Many have posted recently about the nada trait so many of us know so

> well, Suicidal Ideations. It may range from shrieking If you don t

> love me I ll kill myself, to pouring out pills in her hand as soon as

> she sees you come into the room, to long sighs and I d be better off

> dead.

>

> It is FOG. Pure manipulation. The books and therapists tell us, never

> take a suicide threat lightly. Treat them all as serious. However,

> in the case of a BP, some added factors come into the equation.

>

> 1. Often the precursor for suicide is not a blatant threat, but little

> signs, such as giving away important items, or saying goodbyes, or I

> love yous, where they seem out of place.

>

> 2. A person about to commit suicide, unless it is in a rage, usually

> does NOT present as a hysterical ball of nada on the floor. Once they

> have made the decision to act, they are more likely to be eerily calm

> and at peace. In their mind, the things which are driving them to

> suicide are now resovled: they are going to die.

>

> ( as opposed to nada screaming her threats to kill herself if she doesnt

> get her way)

>

> 3. A person who is suicidal should have intervention. This does not

> mean, if you dont give me ice cream , I ll kill myself. Ok, heres some

> ice cream. Rather it means, I m going to put professionals on the case

> with you right now. Often, passing the crisis and getting some help

> will get them to the place of coping withouit resorting to suicide.

>

> 4. A person who is truly determined to end their life, will. Period.

> All intervention aside, all help offered aside, if they truly decide

> that is what they want, you cannot stop them forever.

>

> 5. About 10 % of BP s are considered statistically likely to end their

> lives by suicide. It does happen. But that does not provide them

> with a lever to manipulate you.

>

> After intervening the first time, by calling 911 or a Dr, I would have

> this conversation.

>

> Mom, I do love you, whether you are willing to admit that or not. I

> have done what I can to get you help. I truly hope you take the help,

> and do not kill yourself. But if you do, it is all on you. It is not,

> nor will it be then, my fault. I will not let you use that to

> manipulate my guilt or feelings any more. If you call me to say, if you

> don t do XYZ , I ll just kill myself because you dont love me, I will

> immediately hang up and call 911 and tell them where you are and what

> you ve said. You can deal with them, and not with me.

>

> Under no circumstances will I do, or refrain from doing, anything based

> on your suicide threats. You are not going to control my life by

> threatening to end yours. If you carry out those threats, I ll be sad,

> but I will not feel guilty for it.

>

> This is never going to work for you again.

>

>

>

> Look at it this way. 90 % of them do not commit suicide, but virtually

> all of them use it for manipulation. We should let it work to the same

> extent we let a hold my breath tantrum work for a 3 year old. Not at

> all. It should make things worse for them every single time. They can

> explain to the hospital. They can try to fend off the sheriff. But

> whatever they were tying to get from you, absolutely does not happen,

> and the problem gets pushed back to where it belongs: Nada.

>

>

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with everything you said here.

I had a mother who threatened suicide CONSTANTLY and never attempted. Then one

day my aunt shot herself and suddenly it was all a reality to me. I was 11 at

that time.

If I knew then what I know now about BPD, I'd have called 911 on my mother every

single time she ever threatened. I swear, I would...because I was manipulated

with that crap my entire life. I HATED not knowing if I was going to walk in

the room and find my mother dead. It was all I thought about at school and all

I thought about any time I wasn't right next to her. It is truly an

inexcuseable, unforgiveable thing to do to your child. She should have gotten

her ass into therapy instead of laying her issues on her children.

.

Nada s , Suicide , and Tough realities

Many have posted recently about the nada trait so many of us know so

well, Suicidal Ideations. It may range from shrieking If you don t

love me I ll kill myself, to pouring out pills in her hand as soon as

she sees you come into the room, to long sighs and I d be better off

dead.

It is FOG. Pure manipulation. The books and therapists tell us, never

take a suicide threat lightly. Treat them all as serious. However,

in the case of a BP, some added factors come into the equation.

1. Often the precursor for suicide is not a blatant threat, but little

signs, such as giving away important items, or saying goodbyes, or I

love yous, where they seem out of place.

2. A person about to commit suicide, unless it is in a rage, usually

does NOT present as a hysterical ball of nada on the floor. Once they

have made the decision to act, they are more likely to be eerily calm

and at peace. In their mind, the things which are driving them to

suicide are now resovled: they are going to die.

( as opposed to nada screaming her threats to kill herself if she doesnt

get her way)

3. A person who is suicidal should have intervention. This does not

mean, if you dont give me ice cream , I ll kill myself. Ok, heres some

ice cream. Rather it means, I m going to put professionals on the case

with you right now. Often, passing the crisis and getting some help

will get them to the place of coping withouit resorting to suicide.

4. A person who is truly determined to end their life, will. Period.

All intervention aside, all help offered aside, if they truly decide

that is what they want, you cannot stop them forever.

5. About 10 % of BP s are considered statistically likely to end their

lives by suicide. It does happen. But that does not provide them

with a lever to manipulate you.

After intervening the first time, by calling 911 or a Dr, I would have

this conversation.

Mom, I do love you, whether you are willing to admit that or not. I

have done what I can to get you help. I truly hope you take the help,

and do not kill yourself. But if you do, it is all on you. It is not,

nor will it be then, my fault. I will not let you use that to

manipulate my guilt or feelings any more. If you call me to say, if you

don t do XYZ , I ll just kill myself because you dont love me, I will

immediately hang up and call 911 and tell them where you are and what

you ve said. You can deal with them, and not with me.

Under no circumstances will I do, or refrain from doing, anything based

on your suicide threats. You are not going to control my life by

threatening to end yours. If you carry out those threats, I ll be sad,

but I will not feel guilty for it.

This is never going to work for you again.

Look at it this way. 90 % of them do not commit suicide, but virtually

all of them use it for manipulation. We should let it work to the same

extent we let a hold my breath tantrum work for a 3 year old. Not at

all. It should make things worse for them every single time. They can

explain to the hospital. They can try to fend off the sheriff. But

whatever they were tying to get from you, absolutely does not happen,

and the problem gets pushed back to where it belongs: Nada.

Doug

[Guest guest]

Dear Doug,

This is an excellent reminder for all of us! Great post.

I would like to add that similarly, when they fake a medical emergency (my

mother has pretended to lose consciousness both in person and over the phone,

has manipulated me with a hundred scary symptoms especially when I was far and

couldn't see through the phone) their bluff should be called. I used to really

fall for that until a year ago.

The last time she pretended to pass out while talking to me on the phone (by

saying " I feel so faint " and then being silent for a minute). After a minute I

told her " Mom, I'm very worried about you, I don't know if you can hear me or

not right now, so I am hanging up and calling an ambulance. " I hung up and less

than 10 seconds later the phone rang. I kept playing my little scheme and told

her I have emergency dispatch on the other line, and they are going to send an

ambulance to her house. She started yelling that she's fine! She hasn't pulled

that stunt again since last May!

And again, this leaves me sadly wondering about how many wonderful experiences

we could have enjoyed, how many creative things we could have done, how much

more meaningfully we could have contributed to our world with the hours, days,

months of our lives that have been spent on dealing with this insanity.

Arianna

>

>

> Many have posted recently about the nada trait so many of us know so

> well, Suicidal Ideations. It may range from shrieking If you don t

> love me I ll kill myself, to pouring out pills in her hand as soon as

> she sees you come into the room, to long sighs and I d be better off

> dead.

>

> It is FOG. Pure manipulation. The books and therapists tell us, never

> take a suicide threat lightly. Treat them all as serious. However,

> in the case of a BP, some added factors come into the equation.

>

> 1. Often the precursor for suicide is not a blatant threat, but little

> signs, such as giving away important items, or saying goodbyes, or I

> love yous, where they seem out of place.

>

> 2. A person about to commit suicide, unless it is in a rage, usually

> does NOT present as a hysterical ball of nada on the floor. Once they

> have made the decision to act, they are more likely to be eerily calm

> and at peace. In their mind, the things which are driving them to

> suicide are now resovled: they are going to die.

>

> ( as opposed to nada screaming her threats to kill herself if she doesnt

> get her way)

>

> 3. A person who is suicidal should have intervention. This does not

> mean, if you dont give me ice cream , I ll kill myself. Ok, heres some

> ice cream. Rather it means, I m going to put professionals on the case

> with you right now. Often, passing the crisis and getting some help

> will get them to the place of coping withouit resorting to suicide.

>

> 4. A person who is truly determined to end their life, will. Period.

> All intervention aside, all help offered aside, if they truly decide

> that is what they want, you cannot stop them forever.

>

> 5. About 10 % of BP s are considered statistically likely to end their

> lives by suicide. It does happen. But that does not provide them

> with a lever to manipulate you.

>

> After intervening the first time, by calling 911 or a Dr, I would have

> this conversation.

>

> Mom, I do love you, whether you are willing to admit that or not. I

> have done what I can to get you help. I truly hope you take the help,

> and do not kill yourself. But if you do, it is all on you. It is not,

> nor will it be then, my fault. I will not let you use that to

> manipulate my guilt or feelings any more. If you call me to say, if you

> don t do XYZ , I ll just kill myself because you dont love me, I will

> immediately hang up and call 911 and tell them where you are and what

> you ve said. You can deal with them, and not with me.

>

> Under no circumstances will I do, or refrain from doing, anything based

> on your suicide threats. You are not going to control my life by

> threatening to end yours. If you carry out those threats, I ll be sad,

> but I will not feel guilty for it.

>

> This is never going to work for you again.

>

>

>

> Look at it this way. 90 % of them do not commit suicide, but virtually

> all of them use it for manipulation. We should let it work to the same

> extent we let a hold my breath tantrum work for a 3 year old. Not at

> all. It should make things worse for them every single time. They can

> explain to the hospital. They can try to fend off the sheriff. But

> whatever they were tying to get from you, absolutely does not happen,

> and the problem gets pushed back to where it belongs: Nada.

>

>

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

Doug,

This is great advice... thanks for posting. It is good to know the difference

between a suicide threat and a suicide ideation (something I had never known you

could put a label on).

I wish I had known in my teens what nada was doing.. with the threats and

manipulations with her LIFE. I think, " what in the world?! " I can't believe a

parent would use that threat against their own child.

:I too believed I would walk in a room and nada would be dead... or go

drive off a cliff during one of her many famous dramatic runaway sessions. When

my nada did actually attempt suicide, I was a freshman in college so I was far

away at the time. I remember getting the call from my dad and then going to

class as usual thinking, " well, I guess my mother is going to die... " She

survived and then insisted she was fine and the docs sent her home 48 hours

later.

wtf? I was certain that after a SUICIDE ATTEMPT that docs wouldn't buy her

manipulation and someone from the outside would FINALLY recognize her abuse and

try to fix her, but, alas, BP won. And afterwards she wickedly, snickeringly

told me I should feel guilty for her suicide attempt. And now I know that a

loving parent would never, ever say that to their child.

Oi.

- Cvidzz

>

>

> Many have posted recently about the nada trait so many of us know so

> well, Suicidal Ideations. It may range from shrieking If you don t

> love me I ll kill myself, to pouring out pills in her hand as soon as

> she sees you come into the room, to long sighs and I d be better off

> dead.

>

> It is FOG. Pure manipulation. The books and therapists tell us, never

> take a suicide threat lightly. Treat them all as serious. However,

> in the case of a BP, some added factors come into the equation.

>

> 1. Often the precursor for suicide is not a blatant threat, but little

> signs, such as giving away important items, or saying goodbyes, or I

> love yous, where they seem out of place.

>

> 2. A person about to commit suicide, unless it is in a rage, usually

> does NOT present as a hysterical ball of nada on the floor. Once they

> have made the decision to act, they are more likely to be eerily calm

> and at peace. In their mind, the things which are driving them to

> suicide are now resovled: they are going to die.

>

> ( as opposed to nada screaming her threats to kill herself if she doesnt

> get her way)

>

> 3. A person who is suicidal should have intervention. This does not

> mean, if you dont give me ice cream , I ll kill myself. Ok, heres some

> ice cream. Rather it means, I m going to put professionals on the case

> with you right now. Often, passing the crisis and getting some help

> will get them to the place of coping withouit resorting to suicide.

>

> 4. A person who is truly determined to end their life, will. Period.

> All intervention aside, all help offered aside, if they truly decide

> that is what they want, you cannot stop them forever.

>

> 5. About 10 % of BP s are considered statistically likely to end their

> lives by suicide. It does happen. But that does not provide them

> with a lever to manipulate you.

>

> After intervening the first time, by calling 911 or a Dr, I would have

> this conversation.

>

> Mom, I do love you, whether you are willing to admit that or not. I

> have done what I can to get you help. I truly hope you take the help,

> and do not kill yourself. But if you do, it is all on you. It is not,

> nor will it be then, my fault. I will not let you use that to

> manipulate my guilt or feelings any more. If you call me to say, if you

> don t do XYZ , I ll just kill myself because you dont love me, I will

> immediately hang up and call 911 and tell them where you are and what

> you ve said. You can deal with them, and not with me.

>

> Under no circumstances will I do, or refrain from doing, anything based

> on your suicide threats. You are not going to control my life by

> threatening to end yours. If you carry out those threats, I ll be sad,

> but I will not feel guilty for it.

>

> This is never going to work for you again.

>

>

>

> Look at it this way. 90 % of them do not commit suicide, but virtually

> all of them use it for manipulation. We should let it work to the same

> extent we let a hold my breath tantrum work for a 3 year old. Not at

> all. It should make things worse for them every single time. They can

> explain to the hospital. They can try to fend off the sheriff. But

> whatever they were tying to get from you, absolutely does not happen,

> and the problem gets pushed back to where it belongs: Nada.

>

>

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

Having witnessed a suicide at 12, I did not take my nada's threats lightly

several years ago. Since she lives about 3.5 hours away, I called the local

police there twice. Both times, she presented completely rationally with them

and they could do nothing for her. Of course as soon as it happened, she called

me back to rage her head off and threaten to call the police on my household.

All I can say is at least she hasn't done it again since!

I appreciate this validation though, because working in mental health and

addictions, this threat comes up a lot and I'm sharing it with my co-workers.