Experiences of Physical Abuse

[Guest guest]

Hi, All,

I've been away for several months dealing with some personal stuff, but I've

been thinking about all the people on this board and how well you all understand

things no one else does.

Lately, I've been trying to understand the role of physical abuse in my

childhood. I hadn't spent much time thinking about it before because relative to

the emotional and verbal abuse I received, the physical wasn't as severe. I've

been trying to look online and in books for the kinds of episodes abused

children experience, but I can't find anyone who describes these kinds of

episodes in depth from a psychological perspective.

I remember my mother sometimes smiling this joyless smile in the middle of a

rage after she'd hit me, and daring me to hit her back. It really seemed as if

she wanted me to, too. It creeps me out to this day and I wish I could

understand what was so chilling about it.

She was also not a " beater " ; she was what I call a " smacker " . That is, she

rarely hit me or my brother more than a couple of times in an episode. Her rage

would peak, she'd hit us a few times, and that seemed to vent her anger a bit.

Of course, having gotten her anger out, she never understood why we'd still be

sulking hours later. " Lose the attitude, " she'd say cheerfully. If you brought

up the abuse to her later, she'd mitigate it by saying, " Oh, so what, you got

your hair pulled, " or " Big deal, you got a little smack. "

My brother was hit much more often than I was because he was the one who would

vocalize what he felt more often. He has serious balls. I was usually too

terrified to speak, so without any retaliation, my mother ran out of steam

faster when fighting with me.

Does any of this sound like what anyone else has experienced? WTF is the

mid-hitting smiling about? Have you read/heard about it anywhere else? How have

you dealt with rage over being physically abused, especially if your nada was

relatively mild when it came to hitting?

[Guest guest]

My own opinion is that the smaller the child is when the physical abuse begins,

the worse the emotional trauma and damage are to the child.

One of my very earliest childhood memories is hiding from my mother out of fear

of her, and realizing that her sobs of remorse were false. " She's just trying

to trick me again " I say to myself in this memory, as I cower behind a door.

I'm guessing I was around 3 at the time.

My nada admitted to me, rather casually, not too many years back, (and spoken

with that sad, wistful tone of voice presaging tears) that she had " given up on

having a normal, loving mother-daughter relationship " with me by the time I was

3, which is why nada was thrilled to discover that she was pregnant again: she

would have " another chance " to be loved.

Her screaming rages, the sudden, unexpected slaps, gripping me hard by the arm

or arms and jerking me around, shaking me, holding me close to her face as she

screeched at me, hard spankings, had made me scared to death of her, and she

interpreted my fear of her as me rejecting her, being critical of her, and not

loving her. In particular, I had to learn to control my involuntary startle

reflex if she made a sudden, unexpected move near me. Seeing me flinch from her

would trigger her rage, because it embarrassed her, I suppose, that her own

small child was genuinely afraid of her.

So, little Sister and I both have memories of being raged at, hit, slapped, and

even beaten with dad's belt when nada was really enraged with us.

As an older child and adult, I have definitely noticed the " baiting " behavior

from my nada. She would deliberately goad and provoke dad into verbal fights

with her (he'd just leave the house when that happened, usually) and she'd do

the same thing to me and Sister. Nada would pick at me relentlessly, criticize

me, accuse me of saying or doing something I hadn't, which is a way of

deliberately provoking a person to defend herself, or " fight back. " Then nada

had the excuse to really let all hell break loose. That is exactly the same as

bullying behavior; picking on someone who either can't or won't fight back,

because you enjoy inflicting pain on others.

That's where the crazy, creepy smile comes from: she enjoyed beating the crap

out of you or scaring the crap out of you. Enjoying inflicting pain on others

is " sadism " , whether its sexual pain or other tortures.

I just read an article at that site " Shrink4Men " that Randi posted the link to,

speculating that the Cluster B disorders are all just varying

intensity/frequency or degrees of psychopathy.

I really, really agree with that line of thinking! I totally buy it: that

individuals exhibiting Cluster B behaviors are actually psychopathic, which

means they are just way, way too mentally ill to be raising kids. Truly.

-Annie

>

> Hi, All,

>

> I've been away for several months dealing with some personal stuff, but I've

been thinking about all the people on this board and how well you all understand

things no one else does.

>

> Lately, I've been trying to understand the role of physical abuse in my

childhood. I hadn't spent much time thinking about it before because relative to

the emotional and verbal abuse I received, the physical wasn't as severe. I've

been trying to look online and in books for the kinds of episodes abused

children experience, but I can't find anyone who describes these kinds of

episodes in depth from a psychological perspective.

>

> I remember my mother sometimes smiling this joyless smile in the middle of a

rage after she'd hit me, and daring me to hit her back. It really seemed as if

she wanted me to, too. It creeps me out to this day and I wish I could

understand what was so chilling about it.

>

> She was also not a " beater " ; she was what I call a " smacker " . That is, she

rarely hit me or my brother more than a couple of times in an episode. Her rage

would peak, she'd hit us a few times, and that seemed to vent her anger a bit.

Of course, having gotten her anger out, she never understood why we'd still be

sulking hours later. " Lose the attitude, " she'd say cheerfully. If you brought

up the abuse to her later, she'd mitigate it by saying, " Oh, so what, you got

your hair pulled, " or " Big deal, you got a little smack. "

>

> My brother was hit much more often than I was because he was the one who would

vocalize what he felt more often. He has serious balls. I was usually too

terrified to speak, so without any retaliation, my mother ran out of steam

faster when fighting with me.

>

> Does any of this sound like what anyone else has experienced? WTF is the

mid-hitting smiling about? Have you read/heard about it anywhere else? How have

you dealt with rage over being physically abused, especially if your nada was

relatively mild when it came to hitting?

>

[Guest guest]

Jgar,

This is a good topic which i'm sure will earn a long thread, unfortunately. Your

nada sounds similar to mine in that there was a lot of smacking with hands,

repeatedly. My nada was a ragaholic who lost control of herself multiple times

daily; my split-black brother got it the worst but we all got beat badly by both

nada and fada. Nada would deny deny deny, and just like yours, minimize the

beatings and thereby victimize me all over again psychologically. She would also

say I was imagining it and exaggerating; I honestly know that she doesn't have a

recollection of most of it so she believes herself to be telling the truth.

Pretty sick.

I remember nada using a wooden spoon, a ruler, a metre stick, flyswatter, her

hard plastic platform house shoes (from the late 70's and 80's era), her hands,

rinsing my bada's mouth with soap, verbal tirades, etc. Fada always used his

hands by repeatedly spanking asses with great force over and over, usually bent

over something after a shameful march over to the beating spot. Fada was

stronger and more violent, a cold rage as opposed to nada's firey out of control

rages. Both were terrible and have scarred me badly. I hate them both now,

admittedly, this is not healthy but it's true. I don't hate in a firey bitter

way, just a detached pitiful hate that these two were so useless as parents but

yet still chose to have three children whom they resented and abused. Not

winners, my parents.

There was a lot of screaming after-the-fact, if I couldn't stop crying or

pouting. Something along the lines of " If you don't stop crying, i'll really

give you something to cry about! " " Goddam ungrateful little brats! " " Chr#st

Allmighty, dammit all to hell!! " Etc. I guess I should have been more grateful

to my idiot parents for their violent beatings and emotional abuse. Silly me!

Sometimes, and as I got older, I became stoic. If I got hit or smacked, I would

remain tearless, emotionless and distant through the pain and humiliation. I

guess this was a coping mechanism aimed at minimizing subsequent verbal trauma

and abuse. I think nadas who do this gain immediate gratification from violently

releasing their inner rage, therefore you get strange grins and eerie looks of

detachment or relief. They've released something so ugly inside themselves, and

now they feel better. They could care less about hurting their children in these

profoundly selfish moments. It's all about gratifying themself and finding an

outlet for their uncontrollable rage.

I remember being outraged as a child with no outlet, and would therefore bury

the rage. I spent a lot of time alone, crying, locked in my bedroom trying to

avoid the abuse and torture from my parents, and two very violent older

brothers. To this day I swear to myself that I will never lay a hand on a child

or animal, no matter what. Period.

I pledged to stop the cycle for my own sake and any potential future children I

have. That's the best I can do. Around children I have the patience of Job; and

I consider that healing in itself. Afterall, children didn't ask to be born so

why on earth would anybody feel justified in projecting their own misery on a

helpless child?

May we all find healing. Hugs from HF xo

[Guest guest]

You're really onto something here. I think some Ns are addicted to new babies

because there's that moment where the N gets love before she alienates the

child. My mother hated me for hating her.

----------

Please excuse any typos or terseness, this message was sent from a mobile

device.

Re: Experiences of Physical Abuse

My own opinion is that the smaller the child is when the physical abuse begins,

the worse the emotional trauma and damage are to the child.

One of my very earliest childhood memories is hiding from my mother out of fear

of her, and realizing that her sobs of remorse were false. " She's just trying

to trick me again " I say to myself in this memory, as I cower behind a door.

I'm guessing I was around 3 at the time.

My nada admitted to me, rather casually, not too many years back, (and spoken

with that sad, wistful tone of voice presaging tears) that she had " given up on

having a normal, loving mother-daughter relationship " with me by the time I was

3, which is why nada was thrilled to discover that she was pregnant again: she

would have " another chance " to be loved.

Her screaming rages, the sudden, unexpected slaps, gripping me hard by the arm

or arms and jerking me around, shaking me, holding me close to her face as she

screeched at me, hard spankings, had made me scared to death of her, and she

interpreted my fear of her as me rejecting her, being critical of her, and not

loving her. In particular, I had to learn to control my involuntary startle

reflex if she made a sudden, unexpected move near me. Seeing me flinch from her

would trigger her rage, because it embarrassed her, I suppose, that her own

small child was genuinely afraid of her.

So, little Sister and I both have memories of being raged at, hit, slapped, and

even beaten with dad's belt when nada was really enraged with us.

As an older child and adult, I have definitely noticed the " baiting " behavior

from my nada. She would deliberately goad and provoke dad into verbal fights

with her (he'd just leave the house when that happened, usually) and she'd do

the same thing to me and Sister. Nada would pick at me relentlessly, criticize

me, accuse me of saying or doing something I hadn't, which is a way of

deliberately provoking a person to defend herself, or " fight back. " Then nada

had the excuse to really let all hell break loose. That is exactly the same as

bullying behavior; picking on someone who either can't or won't fight back,

because you enjoy inflicting pain on others.

That's where the crazy, creepy smile comes from: she enjoyed beating the crap

out of you or scaring the crap out of you. Enjoying inflicting pain on others

is " sadism " , whether its sexual pain or other tortures.

I just read an article at that site " Shrink4Men " that Randi posted the link to,

speculating that the Cluster B disorders are all just varying

intensity/frequency or degrees of psychopathy.

I really, really agree with that line of thinking! I totally buy it: that

individuals exhibiting Cluster B behaviors are actually psychopathic, which

means they are just way, way too mentally ill to be raising kids. Truly.

-Annie

>

> Hi, All,

>

> I've been away for several months dealing with some personal stuff, but I've

been thinking about all the people on this board and how well you all understand

things no one else does.

>

> Lately, I've been trying to understand the role of physical abuse in my

childhood. I hadn't spent much time thinking about it before because relative to

the emotional and verbal abuse I received, the physical wasn't as severe. I've

been trying to look online and in books for the kinds of episodes abused

children experience, but I can't find anyone who describes these kinds of

episodes in depth from a psychological perspective.

>

> I remember my mother sometimes smiling this joyless smile in the middle of a

rage after she'd hit me, and daring me to hit her back. It really seemed as if

she wanted me to, too. It creeps me out to this day and I wish I could

understand what was so chilling about it.

>

> She was also not a " beater " ; she was what I call a " smacker " . That is, she

rarely hit me or my brother more than a couple of times in an episode. Her rage

would peak, she'd hit us a few times, and that seemed to vent her anger a bit.

Of course, having gotten her anger out, she never understood why we'd still be

sulking hours later. " Lose the attitude, " she'd say cheerfully. If you brought

up the abuse to her later, she'd mitigate it by saying, " Oh, so what, you got

your hair pulled, " or " Big deal, you got a little smack. "

>

> My brother was hit much more often than I was because he was the one who would

vocalize what he felt more often. He has serious balls. I was usually too

terrified to speak, so without any retaliation, my mother ran out of steam

faster when fighting with me.

>

> Does any of this sound like what anyone else has experienced? WTF is the

mid-hitting smiling about? Have you read/heard about it anywhere else? How have

you dealt with rage over being physically abused, especially if your nada was

relatively mild when it came to hitting?

>

[Guest guest]

Annie, Millicent, Hellfire (great name, btw), thanks for the insights. What you

say makes sense. My mother is *great* with small, pre-verbal children. It's when

they get old enough to start differentiating that she finds it difficult to

maintain affection for them. Now that I'm an adult, my mother sees me

emotionally shutting down to protect myself, and acts out by calling me cold and

selfish. It's ironic, because I really used to adore her and think she was just

about perfect, and it still wasn't good enough for her. She treats me better

now, when she knows it would be easier to kill the small affection I have left.

Annie, you wrote, " My nada admitted to me, rather casually, not too many years

back, (and spoken with that sad, wistful tone of voice presaging tears) that she

had " given up on having a normal, loving mother-daughter relationship " with me

by the time I was 3. "

It's so weird how they can just drop stuff like that and have no awareness how

screwed up it is-- not just the feeling itself, but that you'd share that with

your child. It inspires completely detached, emotionless, purely intellectual

wonder in me sometimes.

> >

> > Hi, All,

> >

> > I've been away for several months dealing with some personal stuff, but I've

been thinking about all the people on this board and how well you all understand

things no one else does.

> >

> > Lately, I've been trying to understand the role of physical abuse in my

childhood. I hadn't spent much time thinking about it before because relative to

the emotional and verbal abuse I received, the physical wasn't as severe. I've

been trying to look online and in books for the kinds of episodes abused

children experience, but I can't find anyone who describes these kinds of

episodes in depth from a psychological perspective.

> >

> > I remember my mother sometimes smiling this joyless smile in the middle of a

rage after she'd hit me, and daring me to hit her back. It really seemed as if

she wanted me to, too. It creeps me out to this day and I wish I could

understand what was so chilling about it.

> >

> > She was also not a " beater " ; she was what I call a " smacker " . That is, she

rarely hit me or my brother more than a couple of times in an episode. Her rage

would peak, she'd hit us a few times, and that seemed to vent her anger a bit.

Of course, having gotten her anger out, she never understood why we'd still be

sulking hours later. " Lose the attitude, " she'd say cheerfully. If you brought

up the abuse to her later, she'd mitigate it by saying, " Oh, so what, you got

your hair pulled, " or " Big deal, you got a little smack. "

> >

> > My brother was hit much more often than I was because he was the one who

would vocalize what he felt more often. He has serious balls. I was usually too

terrified to speak, so without any retaliation, my mother ran out of steam

faster when fighting with me.

> >

> > Does any of this sound like what anyone else has experienced? WTF is the

mid-hitting smiling about? Have you read/heard about it anywhere else? How have

you dealt with rage over being physically abused, especially if your nada was

relatively mild when it came to hitting?

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, on all counts: it truly demonstrated the depth of my mother's mental

illness that (a) it totally did not register with her that she herself was

causing her toddler/preschooler to be terrified of her with her screaming rages

and physical abuse ( that she interpreted my fear of her as me not loving her,

© instead of trying to control her abnormal, frightening rages and trying to

regain my trust, she basically abandoned me emotionally, (d) she felt all this

was OK to confess to me (when I was an adult) because it was, after all, my

fault for " not loving her " in the first place.

I think it comes from an inability to comprehend that a small child has

feelings. I was supposed to just absorb her rage and not find it traumatizing,

like a ragdoll, and be ready to run to her, hug her and soothe her feelings when

she wanted it instead of shrinking away from her in fear.

And I think the lack of ability to comprehend that other human beings do have

feelings that can be hurt, or worse: understanding the concept but *not caring*

about other people's feelings, aka lack of empathy, is what makes the Cluster B

disorders related to psychopathy.

-Annie

> > >

> > > Hi, All,

> > >

> > > I've been away for several months dealing with some personal stuff, but

I've been thinking about all the people on this board and how well you all

understand things no one else does.

> > >

> > > Lately, I've been trying to understand the role of physical abuse in my

childhood. I hadn't spent much time thinking about it before because relative to

the emotional and verbal abuse I received, the physical wasn't as severe. I've

been trying to look online and in books for the kinds of episodes abused

children experience, but I can't find anyone who describes these kinds of

episodes in depth from a psychological perspective.

> > >

> > > I remember my mother sometimes smiling this joyless smile in the middle of

a rage after she'd hit me, and daring me to hit her back. It really seemed as if

she wanted me to, too. It creeps me out to this day and I wish I could

understand what was so chilling about it.

> > >

> > > She was also not a " beater " ; she was what I call a " smacker " . That is, she

rarely hit me or my brother more than a couple of times in an episode. Her rage

would peak, she'd hit us a few times, and that seemed to vent her anger a bit.

Of course, having gotten her anger out, she never understood why we'd still be

sulking hours later. " Lose the attitude, " she'd say cheerfully. If you brought

up the abuse to her later, she'd mitigate it by saying, " Oh, so what, you got

your hair pulled, " or " Big deal, you got a little smack. "

> > >

> > > My brother was hit much more often than I was because he was the one who

would vocalize what he felt more often. He has serious balls. I was usually too

terrified to speak, so without any retaliation, my mother ran out of steam

faster when fighting with me.

> > >

> > > Does any of this sound like what anyone else has experienced? WTF is the

mid-hitting smiling about? Have you read/heard about it anywhere else? How have

you dealt with rage over being physically abused, especially if your nada was

relatively mild when it came to hitting?

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Agreed. Something about small children is less threatening to a nada. I observed

this with my nada also. How scary is this? My nada was a school teacher for 30+

years! Some of her students told me how much they hated her but....

Over the years they moved her around a bit and sometimes she would teach older

grades 7-9; well THAT was a bad idea. Those kids hated her and she would lose

her mind daily and come home in flap and rant *ALL* night about how much she

hated her students, blah blah. They bullied and harassed her and she was such a

waif victim is was rediculous. She'd take it all out on her own kids to boot.

So she was moved back to Grade 1 which was the only age she could handle as a

teacher. Credit to her, she did pretty good with the littler ones but I always

worried what kind of crap she would fill their little heads with........ She

definitely had no clue how to handle bullying. She almost had me killed with the

advice she gave me about my childhood bullies. Another epic NADA FAIL.

Now in her 70's nada is a part-time nanny! How wonderful! Gawd if those families

only knew how she treated her own children. Although they seem to like her and I

don't believe she abuses the small children in her care; although I know, from

her own accounts, she's made some errors. At least these kids have a full-time

normal mother and father to off-set the once a week nada nanny.

Nada told me one time that one of the little girls she sits for was having a bad

day, crying, overwhelmed by her two older and younger siblings, etc. Pretty

typical stuff. Nada said she tried to comfort the little girl by telling her

that her little sister (who was bugging her) probably finds her (the crying

sister) annoying too and that she'd better stop crying before her parents got

home, because that would be a " shame " . Nada then asked if this input helped the

little girl, and of course the little one said 'not really' and kept crying.

Nada was more concerned with what the parents would think if they came home

rather than the child's feelings and validating them. I can think of 100 things

to say to this child that would help yet nada is out to lunch utterly. I know

EXACTLY how that child felt in that moment and it's sad.

Oh and my NPD fada was a school teacher too!!! But he couldn't stay sober long

enough to finish his career. Don't worry parents on this board, both are no

longer working so your kids are safe from these two whackadoos.

The little ones don't seem to be as much of a threat to nadas do they? I wonder

if this is more apparent in the Waif/witch type? Perhaps this is a stroke of

luck to have a nada that liked babies and really small children since the worst

damage to personality development happens before age 4...... any thoughts?

Although I think my nada neglected my painted black brother before age 4 and

didn't mirror him properly as he turned out to be a RAGING PSYCHO NPD Bipolar

nuclear disaster. This is my therapists theory anyway....

Ugh

Hugs from HF

[Guest guest]

Yes, I've read that the younger the child when the emotional and physical abuse

or neglect begins, the worse the damage. In fact, extreme neglect/abuse of

infants causes attachment disorder which is a severe condition that actually

distorts/damages the infant's brain and can affect the child for life.

I think probably the only reason I am functioning as well as I am is that my

nada felt so overwhelmed and freaked by her first baby that my dad's mother came

to stay with us (at dad's request, I believe) when I was a month or so old, and

basically took care of infant me for several months and showed my nada how to

care for a baby. My nada had never even had a pet before she had me, and had

never even babysat before. This was not due to my nada being extremely young;

she was almost 23 when she had me, she was just uninterested in children (by her

own admission) and (I'm theorizing here) had unrealistic, fantasy expectations

about what child care and motherhood entailed. My nada also has the traits of

obsessive-compulsive pd, which includes perfectionism, rigidity of thought, and

in her case a horror of mess, noise and clutter.

So, if a writer were to create a character with the absolute polar opposite

characteristics of a " good enough " mother, he would have written a description

of my nada at 22.

Then to throw another monkey wrench into the whole thing, I had a hidden medical

condition that required an emergency operation before I was 1 year old, and a

follow-up operation before I was 2.

So, I think my relationship with my mother was rather doomed from the get-go.

-Annie

>

> Agreed. Something about small children is less threatening to a nada. I

observed this with my nada also. How scary is this? My nada was a school teacher

for 30+ years! Some of her students told me how much they hated her but....

>

> Over the years they moved her around a bit and sometimes she would teach older

grades 7-9; well THAT was a bad idea. Those kids hated her and she would lose

her mind daily and come home in flap and rant *ALL* night about how much she

hated her students, blah blah. They bullied and harassed her and she was such a

waif victim is was rediculous. She'd take it all out on her own kids to boot.

>

> So she was moved back to Grade 1 which was the only age she could handle as a

teacher. Credit to her, she did pretty good with the littler ones but I always

worried what kind of crap she would fill their little heads with........ She

definitely had no clue how to handle bullying. She almost had me killed with the

advice she gave me about my childhood bullies. Another epic NADA FAIL.

>

> Now in her 70's nada is a part-time nanny! How wonderful! Gawd if those

families only knew how she treated her own children. Although they seem to like

her and I don't believe she abuses the small children in her care; although I

know, from her own accounts, she's made some errors. At least these kids have a

full-time normal mother and father to off-set the once a week nada nanny.

>

> Nada told me one time that one of the little girls she sits for was having a

bad day, crying, overwhelmed by her two older and younger siblings, etc. Pretty

typical stuff. Nada said she tried to comfort the little girl by telling her

that her little sister (who was bugging her) probably finds her (the crying

sister) annoying too and that she'd better stop crying before her parents got

home, because that would be a " shame " . Nada then asked if this input helped the

little girl, and of course the little one said 'not really' and kept crying.

Nada was more concerned with what the parents would think if they came home

rather than the child's feelings and validating them. I can think of 100 things

to say to this child that would help yet nada is out to lunch utterly. I know

EXACTLY how that child felt in that moment and it's sad.

>

> Oh and my NPD fada was a school teacher too!!! But he couldn't stay sober long

enough to finish his career. Don't worry parents on this board, both are no

longer working so your kids are safe from these two whackadoos.

>

> The little ones don't seem to be as much of a threat to nadas do they? I

wonder if this is more apparent in the Waif/witch type? Perhaps this is a

stroke of luck to have a nada that liked babies and really small children since

the worst damage to personality development happens before age 4...... any

thoughts? Although I think my nada neglected my painted black brother before age

4 and didn't mirror him properly as he turned out to be a RAGING PSYCHO NPD

Bipolar nuclear disaster. This is my therapists theory anyway....

>

> Ugh

>

> Hugs from HF

>

[Guest guest]

Annie, you're very lucky your dad's mother came to take care of you. The story

might have been very different had there been no proper care as an infant.

This leads me to my next point, or peeve maybe. I have tried to explain to

laypeople about BPD and how their brains are affected/hardwired from

infanthood/before 4 years old, and that this damage is irreversable. It's

ingrained forever. People just can't seem to grasp this.

I always get that annoying/unsolicited advice about how, if I just worked harder

at the relationship, things would improve, blah blah. Why can people NOT

understand that BPD is permanent. It's like trying to heal a rabid dog, or

reason with it, you just can't. Period.

Exhausting

[Guest guest]

Hellfire, that is so interesting about your nada being a teacher. My nada

was/is one too as far as I know. She went to college for years and years

when I was a kid. It took her 9 years to get a 4 year degree. Then she

started teaching when i was in 7th grade. She took a job teaching 7th

graders. She hated them and ranted about it constantly, just as you

describe. She particularly hated 7th graders - and I was one so that was

extra nice for her to tell me that non stop for the entire school year. She

then went back to school and got a special ed certificiate and has taught

special ed ever since. I imagine that the combo of the kids needing extra

help plus their young age works for her. She talks about them like the are

idiots - or did last time I heard from her, almost a decade ago. God help

these kids.

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Hellfireblonde <hellfireblonde99@...

> wrote:

>

>

> Annie, you're very lucky your dad's mother came to take care of you. The

> story might have been very different had there been no proper care as an

> infant.

>

> This leads me to my next point, or peeve maybe. I have tried to explain to

> laypeople about BPD and how their brains are affected/hardwired from

> infanthood/before 4 years old, and that this damage is irreversable. It's

> ingrained forever. People just can't seem to grasp this.

>

> I always get that annoying/unsolicited advice about how, if I just worked

> harder at the relationship, things would improve, blah blah. Why can people

> NOT understand that BPD is permanent. It's like trying to heal a rabid dog,

> or reason with it, you just can't. Period.

>

> Exhausting

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with you in part. From what I've read, if bpd symptoms first appear in

childhood or puberty and are recognized/diagnosed properly, and intensive

therapy begins, there is a chance that the child/teen can benefit from the

therapy (both talk therapy and drug therapy if deemed applicable), can learn to

self-monitor, self-soothe, etc.

I haven't done much research RE what happens to children who exhibit the signs

of infant attachment disorder, whether there is any treatment that helps them,

or if that impacts the child for life. It could be that infant attachment

disorder occurs in a specific window of development, that once that window of

time has closed, it can't be re-opened, such as in the case of feral children

(children abandoned as toddlers and yet manage to survive on their own.) There

is a window of time in which a child must learn language, that once that

developmental period has passed and the child has not learned a language, they

are unable to.

I think that unfortunately when an adult has never been properly diagnosed and

has had more than a decade to ingrain the dysfunctional behaviors, and if the

dysfunctional behaviors actually work for him or her (the pd individual finds an

enabler to marry, or they have their foo catering to them) then that's when the

" ego syntonic " part of the disorder sets in stone and there's not much of a

chance of improvement.

Seems to me that parents, pediatricians, teachers, and the general public need

to be educated RE what is normal and abnormal childhood developmental behaviors,

and what the signs of child abuse look like. Plus, kids need to be educated to

recognize when they are being abused either by adults, or other kids, or their

own parents.

Should it not be screamingly obvious that a child who chronically arrives at

school in dirty clothes, with tangled, unclean hair, and no lunch or lunch

money... is being severely neglected by his or her parents? That the child that

is too shy to even answer a question in class or ask to go to the restroom is

being verbally and maybe physically battered at home?

I think knowledge IS power, and we need to be able to understand what we are

witnessing or experiencing, call it as we see it, and deal with it instead of

being too scared to. We've been taught to be timid and non-confrontational,

but, I don't think any real change is going to happen unless we can just do what

we need to do in spite of being scared s**tless to do it.

-Annie

>

> Annie, you're very lucky your dad's mother came to take care of you. The story

might have been very different had there been no proper care as an infant.

>

> This leads me to my next point, or peeve maybe. I have tried to explain to

laypeople about BPD and how their brains are affected/hardwired from

infanthood/before 4 years old, and that this damage is irreversable. It's

ingrained forever. People just can't seem to grasp this.

>

> I always get that annoying/unsolicited advice about how, if I just worked

harder at the relationship, things would improve, blah blah. Why can people NOT

understand that BPD is permanent. It's like trying to heal a rabid dog, or

reason with it, you just can't. Period.

>

> Exhausting

>

[Guest guest]

" too shy to even answer a question in class or ask to go to the restroom is

being verbally and maybe physically battered at home? "

That was me!!! And it lasted til puberty.

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 12:39 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> I agree with you in part. From what I've read, if bpd symptoms first appear

> in childhood or puberty and are recognized/diagnosed properly, and intensive

> therapy begins, there is a chance that the child/teen can benefit from the

> therapy (both talk therapy and drug therapy if deemed applicable), can learn

> to self-monitor, self-soothe, etc.

>

> I haven't done much research RE what happens to children who exhibit the

> signs of infant attachment disorder, whether there is any treatment that

> helps them, or if that impacts the child for life. It could be that infant

> attachment disorder occurs in a specific window of development, that once

> that window of time has closed, it can't be re-opened, such as in the case

> of feral children (children abandoned as toddlers and yet manage to survive

> on their own.) There is a window of time in which a child must learn

> language, that once that developmental period has passed and the child has

> not learned a language, they are unable to.

>

> I think that unfortunately when an adult has never been properly diagnosed

> and has had more than a decade to ingrain the dysfunctional behaviors, and

> if the dysfunctional behaviors actually work for him or her (the pd

> individual finds an enabler to marry, or they have their foo catering to

> them) then that's when the " ego syntonic " part of the disorder sets in stone

> and there's not much of a chance of improvement.

>

> Seems to me that parents, pediatricians, teachers, and the general public

> need to be educated RE what is normal and abnormal childhood developmental

> behaviors, and what the signs of child abuse look like. Plus, kids need to

> be educated to recognize when they are being abused either by adults, or

> other kids, or their own parents.

> Should it not be screamingly obvious that a child who chronically arrives

> at school in dirty clothes, with tangled, unclean hair, and no lunch or

> lunch money... is being severely neglected by his or her parents? That the

> child that is too shy to even answer a question in class or ask to go to the

> restroom is being verbally and maybe physically battered at home?

>

> I think knowledge IS power, and we need to be able to understand what we

> are witnessing or experiencing, call it as we see it, and deal with it

> instead of being too scared to. We've been taught to be timid and

> non-confrontational, but, I don't think any real change is going to happen

> unless we can just do what we need to do in spite of being scared s**tless

> to do it.

>

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > Annie, you're very lucky your dad's mother came to take care of you. The

> story might have been very different had there been no proper care as an

> infant.

> >

> > This leads me to my next point, or peeve maybe. I have tried to explain

> to laypeople about BPD and how their brains are affected/hardwired from

> infanthood/before 4 years old, and that this damage is irreversable. It's

> ingrained forever. People just can't seem to grasp this.

> >

> > I always get that annoying/unsolicited advice about how, if I just worked

> harder at the relationship, things would improve, blah blah. Why can people

> NOT understand that BPD is permanent. It's like trying to heal a rabid dog,

> or reason with it, you just can't. Period.

> >

> > Exhausting

> >

>

>

>