new here, need help about meeting with my BPD mom

[Guest guest]

I live far away from my mom, in a different country, two long flights away.

She is not young nor healthy and these flights are difficult for her and it

takes time to recover so there is no point of coming here for less than two

weeks.

She is full of fears and afraid of living alone at a hotel so the only

option is for her to stay at my house.

Being two weeks with her under the same roof is more than I can bare. She

has rage attacks and she shouts and curses and threatens to kill herself and

it can come out of nowhere, out of some imaginary insult or from feeling she

is not getting what she should from us. She is totally dependent and does

not go out of the house by herself, not even for a walk along the street.

She does not drive. So I have to take her and entertain her all the time, if

I don't she'll get insulted and may have one of her rage attacks. She does

not sleep well at night and she has eating binges going back and forth

between her room, the bathroom and the kitchen so I cannot sleep well at

night, and that makes me even less patient with her during the day. Like I

said she is full of fears and finds dangers in everything we and the kids

do, and she nags about it constantly, trying in any way to make us do things

differently, and she ignores my requests to stop nagging about these issues.

She does not respect my limits, or the rules with the kids - she will keep

on talking with them way past their sleeping hours on school nights - and

she has constant remarks about my looks, disguised as compliments - " oh no

don't cut your hair, you are so beautiful! " . She is full of hate both

towards herself and others, expressing that all the time as insults toward

herself or as hateful and racial remarks towards others, either individual

like family members that are dear to me, or in general towards people of all

sorts. I am sure you know what I am talking about. anyway if I feel good and

well rested and not worried about anything I can have the strength to be

with her for a limited time. But two weeks under the same roof is much more

than I can bare. I did that a few times in the past and it always ended

badly with very hard feelings from all of us. Now it is more difficult

because I am dealing with other problems in my family and I need all my

energy and strength. She also starts having her rage attacks and suicidal

threats in front of the kids, something she was careful not to do in the

past. I remember how terrifying it was to witness it as a child. I don't

want my kids to have to suffer this.

I thought that visiting her country and living in a hotel will be a good

solution but when we tried it was disastrous, she felt abandoned every time

we went to the hotel and when we took a few days trip to see other family

members it caused one of the worst rage attacks ever (the one in front of

the kids).

I could live without seeing her, but I feel so sorry for her. We are all she

has left. No one else wants to be in touch with her. And she really loves us

all, me my husband and the kids, her only grandchildren. It will break my

heart no to let her see them.

I tried to suggest she goes to therapy, thinking that if her issues will be

taken care of, it will be a little easier to have her at my house. But she

refused angrily saying there is nothing wrong with her.

I tried to arrange meetings somewhere in the middle of the way, with only

one flight so that a few days are possible, where we all live in the same

hotel but in different rooms so we have a refuge, but when I suggested it

she felt like I was tricking her out of something, like the big prize is

staying at my house, and what I offer her is the less wanted options, and

she refused angrily, stating that what she wants is coming to our house for

at least two weeks and nothing else.

I don't know how to keep her in our life and let her enjoy the

grandchildren, the only joy she has left in her miserable life, without

letting it taking a too big toll on my life.

Thanks for reading this long message. I'll be happy if you share your

thoughts and suggestions.

[Guest guest]

> I don't know how to keep her in our life and let her enjoy the

> grandchildren, the only joy she has left in her miserable life, without

> letting it taking a too big toll on my life.

>

Hi, . Sounds like your mom has read the " How to Make Your Daughter

Miserable " BPD handbook ;-) I think we can all relate to the things you have

written. I can understand how hard it is to interrupt your kids' relationship

with their grandparent, but sometimes it's what needs to be done. Their safety

and your sanity are by far the most important things to consider. Personally, I

would find raging and threatening suicide in front of my kids to be

unacceptable. No one who did that in my home would ever be invited back. Period.

It is sad when our parents behave like children. Actually, my kids behave far

better than my mother does, so sometimes our parents are even worse! Kids need

boundaries, and it turns out so do our BPD parents. It is actually not helpful

to give them their way every time they throw a temper tantrum. Do you have a

therapist you can talk to about how to establish good boundaries with your mom?

There are also good books out there that can help...I will let others suggest

some.

Your comment about your mom's thinking that staying as a guest in your home was

some kind of prize really stood out to me. It is like she feels entitled to be

in your space and act however she wants there, and if she can't get it she will

throw a fit. But ultimately, it is your space. Whether you have guests or not or

how long they stay is up to you. Your mother has lots of excuses, but if she

can't stay for less than two weeks, and if she can't stay in a hotel, then maybe

she just can't come visit. You do not have to give her way 100% of the time.

Your needs matter, too.

I don't have much to say other than I understand a lot of where you are coming

from. I support you as you strive to protect yourself and your children from her

toxic behavior.

Sveta

[Guest guest]

Sounds like the only reason you would even consider inviting her is pity.

And if you pity someone who makes your life hell you are in fog. but you

have to protect your kids. I wouldn't let her in my house. Its her own fault

that she has alienated everyone she knows. She made her bed. . .

XOXO

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > I don't know how to keep her in our life and let her enjoy the

> > grandchildren, the only joy she has left in her miserable life, without

> > letting it taking a too big toll on my life.

> >

>

> Hi, . Sounds like your mom has read the " How to Make Your Daughter

> Miserable " BPD handbook ;-) I think we can all relate to the things you have

> written. I can understand how hard it is to interrupt your kids'

> relationship with their grandparent, but sometimes it's what needs to be

> done. Their safety and your sanity are by far the most important things to

> consider. Personally, I would find raging and threatening suicide in front

> of my kids to be unacceptable. No one who did that in my home would ever be

> invited back. Period.

>

> It is sad when our parents behave like children. Actually, my kids behave

> far better than my mother does, so sometimes our parents are even worse!

> Kids need boundaries, and it turns out so do our BPD parents. It is actually

> not helpful to give them their way every time they throw a temper tantrum.

> Do you have a therapist you can talk to about how to establish good

> boundaries with your mom? There are also good books out there that can

> help...I will let others suggest some.

>

> Your comment about your mom's thinking that staying as a guest in your home

> was some kind of prize really stood out to me. It is like she feels entitled

> to be in your space and act however she wants there, and if she can't get it

> she will throw a fit. But ultimately, it is your space. Whether you have

> guests or not or how long they stay is up to you. Your mother has lots of

> excuses, but if she can't stay for less than two weeks, and if she can't

> stay in a hotel, then maybe she just can't come visit. You do not have to

> give her way 100% of the time. Your needs matter, too.

>

> I don't have much to say other than I understand a lot of where you are

> coming from. I support you as you strive to protect yourself and your

> children from her toxic behavior.

>

> Sveta

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The you for your understanding and support! Sveta, you made me laugh with

the handbook :-) yes it does seem like she read it. I am looking for a

therapist to help me deal with my parents. Now that I know what I am dealing

with it will be easier to find the right person. I also read some books -

" surviving a borderline parent " and " the borderline mother " and I will go on

looking for resource.

She does feel she is entitled to be my guest, and to many other things. She

was so deprived in her life, from her parents, from my father, that whatever

she gets now, she will always feel it is not enough to compensate for what

she didn't get and deserved to get. Not that I think that justifies her

demanding this unlimited giving from me, but I can understand where it comes

from.

Girlscout, you are right, I do pity her. My first obligation is to my kids

and to myself, but if I can bring some happiness to her sad life without

putting myself and my family at risk I'd like to do that.

It feels good to share this with people who can understand. A big thanks!

Re: Re: new here, need help about meeting with

my BPD mom

Sounds like the only reason you would even consider inviting her is pity.

And if you pity someone who makes your life hell you are in fog. but you

have to protect your kids. I wouldn't let her in my house. Its her own fault

that she has alienated everyone she knows. She made her bed. . .

XOXO

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > I don't know how to keep her in our life and let her enjoy the

> > grandchildren, the only joy she has left in her miserable life, without

> > letting it taking a too big toll on my life.

> >

>

> Hi, . Sounds like your mom has read the " How to Make Your Daughter

> Miserable " BPD handbook ;-) I think we can all relate to the things you

have

> written. I can understand how hard it is to interrupt your kids'

> relationship with their grandparent, but sometimes it's what needs to be

> done. Their safety and your sanity are by far the most important things to

> consider. Personally, I would find raging and threatening suicide in front

> of my kids to be unacceptable. No one who did that in my home would ever

be

> invited back. Period.

>

> It is sad when our parents behave like children. Actually, my kids behave

> far better than my mother does, so sometimes our parents are even worse!

> Kids need boundaries, and it turns out so do our BPD parents. It is

actually

> not helpful to give them their way every time they throw a temper tantrum.

> Do you have a therapist you can talk to about how to establish good

> boundaries with your mom? There are also good books out there that can

> help...I will let others suggest some.

>

> Your comment about your mom's thinking that staying as a guest in your

home

> was some kind of prize really stood out to me. It is like she feels

entitled

> to be in your space and act however she wants there, and if she can't get

it

> she will throw a fit. But ultimately, it is your space. Whether you have

> guests or not or how long they stay is up to you. Your mother has lots of

> excuses, but if she can't stay for less than two weeks, and if she can't

> stay in a hotel, then maybe she just can't come visit. You do not have to

> give her way 100% of the time. Your needs matter, too.

>

> I don't have much to say other than I understand a lot of where you are

> coming from. I support you as you strive to protect yourself and your

> children from her toxic behavior.

>

> Sveta

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey ,

You are not alone! I for one (and I'm sure many others) can understand exactly

what you are talking about. I also really struggle with the need to set

boundaries for my own sanity while at the same time feeling so sorry for my

mother, and wanting to 'make everything okay for her.' Like your situation, I'm

the only family member of my mother's who hasn't cut off contact (which makes it

impossible for me to do so in my mind).

I have been seeing a therapist for 6 months now - the first therapist I have

seen who understands BDP and it is really really helping, so if you are in a

position to, please do try to find a therapist, and keep looking around until

you find someone who you feel gets what you are talking about - I guess lots of

therapists don't know a lot about BDP.

One thing that struck me from your email (and maybe I'm projecting my own issues

here - so sorry if so!) is how much of a trap you seem to feel you are in ( " I

don't know how to keep her in our life and let her enjoy the grandchildren, the

only joy she has left in her miserable life, without letting it taking a too big

toll on my life. " )

I have always felt that I was in a trap with no way out, but my therapist is

helping me see that it is my fears (instilled through decades of emotional

abuse) that keeps me entrapped, rather than any objective reality.

You have an ABSOLUTE RIGHT not to spend two weeks with your mother when you know

how it will turn out (my last two week stretch with my mother ended in her

screaming outside my house that she would have nothing left to live for 'if I

kept doing that to her.' i.e. trying to get her to stop being horrible to me).

By setting that boundary (no two-week home-stays), you are not doing anything

wrong, your mother is manipulating you if she is making you feel like that is

the ONLY option possible for your relationship. Your idea of staying in a hotel

mid-way between you both is great. Makes total sense. A refuge to escape to for

you and your family when things get tense. If you want to stay in your mother's

life, you have a right to insist on that. If she can't accept that, that is her

problem and if she insists on the 'all or nothing approach' it is HER who is

refusing to see you and her grandchildren NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND.

By insisting on seeing her in a way that enables you to keep your sanity, you

are not rejecting your mother, you are not hurting her - she might try to make

you feel like that is what you are doing, but that is not what is happening.

I wish I could help more - I so understand what you are going through right now,

all I can say is stay strong and remember that you have a right (and a duty to

yourself and your family) to refuse to be an emotional punch-bag. If by doing

that, someone else feels hurt, that is unfortunate (and a consequence of mental

illness perhaps), but there is nothing you can do about it. It is not in your

control to make it okay.

Good luck,

Sara

> >

> > > I don't know how to keep her in our life and let her enjoy the

> > > grandchildren, the only joy she has left in her miserable life, without

> > > letting it taking a too big toll on my life.

> > >

> >

> > Hi, . Sounds like your mom has read the " How to Make Your Daughter

> > Miserable " BPD handbook ;-) I think we can all relate to the things you

> have

> > written. I can understand how hard it is to interrupt your kids'

> > relationship with their grandparent, but sometimes it's what needs to be

> > done. Their safety and your sanity are by far the most important things to

> > consider. Personally, I would find raging and threatening suicide in front

> > of my kids to be unacceptable. No one who did that in my home would ever

> be

> > invited back. Period.

> >

> > It is sad when our parents behave like children. Actually, my kids behave

> > far better than my mother does, so sometimes our parents are even worse!

> > Kids need boundaries, and it turns out so do our BPD parents. It is

> actually

> > not helpful to give them their way every time they throw a temper tantrum.

> > Do you have a therapist you can talk to about how to establish good

> > boundaries with your mom? There are also good books out there that can

> > help...I will let others suggest some.

> >

> > Your comment about your mom's thinking that staying as a guest in your

> home

> > was some kind of prize really stood out to me. It is like she feels

> entitled

> > to be in your space and act however she wants there, and if she can't get

> it

> > she will throw a fit. But ultimately, it is your space. Whether you have

> > guests or not or how long they stay is up to you. Your mother has lots of

> > excuses, but if she can't stay for less than two weeks, and if she can't

> > stay in a hotel, then maybe she just can't come visit. You do not have to

> > give her way 100% of the time. Your needs matter, too.

> >

> > I don't have much to say other than I understand a lot of where you are

> > coming from. I support you as you strive to protect yourself and your

> > children from her toxic behavior.

> >

> > Sveta

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Welcome to the group.

Your mother sounds much like mine, kind of a waif who won't take responsibility

for her own feelings ( " it's just that I get so nervous; that's why I snap so

much!! " ) or her own situations (my mother lives alone and doesn't know how to

adjust the temp in her own apt; it's something a child could do but she doesn't

WANT to learn).

Waifs are very selfish. They don't want to be alone and they really don't care

if you have a life or if you have something going on that's important. My

brother has gotten into filming documentaries, kind of as a hobby. He LOVES it.

My mother thinks it's a waste of time, " I can't believe how dedicated he is to

that crap! " What she means is, " I want him totally dedicated to ME. " She

doesn't care that he's fulfilling himself, he's finding himself. Unimportant

compared to her fears and worries.

When you said, " she is full of fears and finds dangers in everything we and the

kids do, and she nags about it constantly, trying in any way to make us do

things differently, and she ignores my requests to stop nagging about these

issues. " - UGH, that's how my mother is. You may as well talk to your feet. She

can't hear you. I don't even bother approaching my mother about it anymore -

UNLESS she brings up her need for help. Then I say something. Even then, she's

so fearful she just won't go to a professional.

My older daughter (13 yo) really, really, really hates visiting her. If my

daughter isn't doing a happy dance in front of my mother and throwing rose

petals in the air with joy at seeing my mother, my mother gets upset and

complains, " what's wrong with her? why isn't she talking to me? what did i

do????? blah blah blah? "

I really don't have any advice; I soooo know how you feel. Once your mother's

visit is over, definitely try to limit your time with her. I say that because,

for me, being around my mother makes me physically sick. My stomach cramps, I

get headaches, dizzy, depressed. It's awful.

We're here for you when you need to vent -- and you will.

Fiona

[Guest guest]

> I also read some books -

> " surviving a borderline parent " and " the borderline mother " and I will go on

> looking for resource.

>

For what it's worth, those are my 2 favorite books on the subject. There are two

more that I have not read yet that other people recommend a lot: " Boundaries " by

Townsend and Cloud and " I Don't Have To Make Everything All Better " by

Lundberg & Lundberg.

Also, I second everything Sara wrote. She's right that your mother is insisting

that you make a lot of " all or nothing " choices, and you have a right to say no.

I liked your compromise idea, too. Anyway, whatever your mother chooses to do

when you say no is her responsibility, not your fault.

[Guest guest]

I agree with this approach. However, a severely bpd mom who sees things in

black-and-white only will probably not accept a compromise situation such as

this. She wants it all her own way, or nothing.

I think its reasonable and rational for you both to stay in a hotel halfway

between you for a week's visit (I think that's a brilliant solution, actually)

but I'm guessing that your mother will not agree to it.

That's when the whole issue devolves onto you; you're the only one who can know

what you can and can't live with. You're the only one who knows what's

tolerable and what's going to push you over the edge.

And I agree that if your bpd mother refuses to accept this compromise solution,

ALL the responsibility for her unhappiness is shifted onto her shoulders.

Totally. All of it.

Here's a suggestion for you if you choose to have her stay in your home. Let

nada stay in your home and you and the kids go live in a nearby hotel for a week

and just visit her at your house. You do need a way to get away from her when

she acts out: an escape route. Just a thought.

Wishing you strength and endurance.

-Annie

PS:

A short course of anti-anxiety meds during the visit might help too. Those got

me through a horrible work situation once until I resolved it by transferring to

another department. I am a big fan of meds when there's a good reason for them.

> > >

> > > > I don't know how to keep her in our life and let her enjoy the

> > > > grandchildren, the only joy she has left in her miserable life, without

> > > > letting it taking a too big toll on my life.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Hi, . Sounds like your mom has read the " How to Make Your Daughter

> > > Miserable " BPD handbook ;-) I think we can all relate to the things you

> > have

> > > written. I can understand how hard it is to interrupt your kids'

> > > relationship with their grandparent, but sometimes it's what needs to be

> > > done. Their safety and your sanity are by far the most important things to

> > > consider. Personally, I would find raging and threatening suicide in front

> > > of my kids to be unacceptable. No one who did that in my home would ever

> > be

> > > invited back. Period.

> > >

> > > It is sad when our parents behave like children. Actually, my kids behave

> > > far better than my mother does, so sometimes our parents are even worse!

> > > Kids need boundaries, and it turns out so do our BPD parents. It is

> > actually

> > > not helpful to give them their way every time they throw a temper tantrum.

> > > Do you have a therapist you can talk to about how to establish good

> > > boundaries with your mom? There are also good books out there that can

> > > help...I will let others suggest some.

> > >

> > > Your comment about your mom's thinking that staying as a guest in your

> > home

> > > was some kind of prize really stood out to me. It is like she feels

> > entitled

> > > to be in your space and act however she wants there, and if she can't get

> > it

> > > she will throw a fit. But ultimately, it is your space. Whether you have

> > > guests or not or how long they stay is up to you. Your mother has lots of

> > > excuses, but if she can't stay for less than two weeks, and if she can't

> > > stay in a hotel, then maybe she just can't come visit. You do not have to

> > > give her way 100% of the time. Your needs matter, too.

> > >

> > > I don't have much to say other than I understand a lot of where you are

> > > coming from. I support you as you strive to protect yourself and your

> > > children from her toxic behavior.

> > >

> > > Sveta

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I think the common denominator underlying most of the various bpd behaviors is

total, absolute self-absorbtion. The person with bpd is completely and

exclusively concerned with her own feelings and needs AND feels entitled to

demand that only her needs and feelings be met, all the time.

There is no room for other people to have needs or feelings. *Other people

barely exist* for Cluster B individuals other than as sources of attention or

care-taking for *her.* (or *him*) Their all-encompassing self-absorbtion is

what drives their demands for attention from others, for perfection from others,

for control over others, for care-taking from others, etc.

It seems to me that its all basically narcissism. It just comes in different

flavors, is all. My own theory is that rampant, galloping narcissism is the

feature that all the Cluster B disorders share and explains a lot of their

behaviors.

-Annie

>

> Hi ,

>

> Welcome to the group.

>

> Your mother sounds much like mine, kind of a waif who won't take

responsibility for her own feelings ( " it's just that I get so nervous; that's

why I snap so much!! " ) or her own situations (my mother lives alone and doesn't

know how to adjust the temp in her own apt; it's something a child could do but

she doesn't WANT to learn).

>

> Waifs are very selfish. They don't want to be alone and they really don't care

if you have a life or if you have something going on that's important. My

brother has gotten into filming documentaries, kind of as a hobby. He LOVES it.

My mother thinks it's a waste of time, " I can't believe how dedicated he is to

that crap! " What she means is, " I want him totally dedicated to ME. " She

doesn't care that he's fulfilling himself, he's finding himself. Unimportant

compared to her fears and worries.

>

> When you said, " she is full of fears and finds dangers in everything we and

the kids do, and she nags about it constantly, trying in any way to make us do

things differently, and she ignores my requests to stop nagging about these

issues. " - UGH, that's how my mother is. You may as well talk to your feet. She

can't hear you. I don't even bother approaching my mother about it anymore -

UNLESS she brings up her need for help. Then I say something. Even then, she's

so fearful she just won't go to a professional.

>

> My older daughter (13 yo) really, really, really hates visiting her. If my

daughter isn't doing a happy dance in front of my mother and throwing rose

petals in the air with joy at seeing my mother, my mother gets upset and

complains, " what's wrong with her? why isn't she talking to me? what did i

do????? blah blah blah? "

>

> I really don't have any advice; I soooo know how you feel. Once your mother's

visit is over, definitely try to limit your time with her. I say that because,

for me, being around my mother makes me physically sick. My stomach cramps, I

get headaches, dizzy, depressed. It's awful.

>

> We're here for you when you need to vent -- and you will.

>

> Fiona

>

[Guest guest]

Fiona

Oh I relate to what you say so much. My Nada was giving me the silent treatment

because I dared to object to her comments to me. She always says " Well I just

can't say anything without you biting my head off " . I started to see a

therapist

and she told me that the unspoken rule is that I exist to make her happy. My

Nada believes that as do I unconsciously.

So i called her yesterday because she is constantly ill. I wound up having her

same symptoms last night. And I started to really think about it after my

conversation with her. I finally figured out that she has never given me a

compliment. She always criticizes albeit covertly so she always has plausible

denial. I realized this after 48 years and her comment to me about how well the

post office did when i sent some artwork that my daughter made at school to her

for mother's day.It wasn't broken.  So I said " well i think i did a good job

packing it. " her response was to ignore it and complimented the post office

again. I repeated my statement and she ignored it again. After I finished my

college degree, my father thought i should get my cpa license. it took me close

to 5 years to do it. (hint i studied that to make my father happy). anyway, i

get the license finally and her comment was " well, now if she will only do

something with it. " So it ranges from the minute to significant events.

I think she has to cut me down to make herself feel better dont you think?

 

Felicia Ward

Remember that people often have different perceptions of the same reality. You

can both be right, and no one has to be wrong, if each of you is willing to let

the other person have his or her perceptions and if both of you are willing to

compromise. 

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Thu, June 9, 2011 7:53:18 AM

Subject: Re: new here, need help about meeting with my BPD

mom

 

I think the common denominator underlying most of the various bpd behaviors is

total, absolute self-absorbtion. The person with bpd is completely and

exclusively concerned with her own feelings and needs AND feels entitled to

demand that only her needs and feelings be met, all the time.

There is no room for other people to have needs or feelings. *Other people

barely exist* for Cluster B individuals other than as sources of attention or

care-taking for *her.* (or *him*) Their all-encompassing self-absorbtion is what

drives their demands for attention from others, for perfection from others, for

control over others, for care-taking from others, etc.

It seems to me that its all basically narcissism. It just comes in different

flavors, is all. My own theory is that rampant, galloping narcissism is the

feature that all the Cluster B disorders share and explains a lot of their

behaviors.

-Annie

>

> Hi ,

>

> Welcome to the group.

>

> Your mother sounds much like mine, kind of a waif who won't take

responsibility

>for her own feelings ( " it's just that I get so nervous; that's why I snap so

>much!! " ) or her own situations (my mother lives alone and doesn't know how to

>adjust the temp in her own apt; it's something a child could do but she doesn't

>WANT to learn).

>

> Waifs are very selfish. They don't want to be alone and they really don't care

>if you have a life or if you have something going on that's important. My

>brother has gotten into filming documentaries, kind of as a hobby. He LOVES it.

>My mother thinks it's a waste of time, " I can't believe how dedicated he is to

>that crap! " What she means is, " I want him totally dedicated to ME. " She

doesn't

>care that he's fulfilling himself, he's finding himself. Unimportant compared

to

>her fears and worries.

>

> When you said, " she is full of fears and finds dangers in everything we and

the

>kids do, and she nags about it constantly, trying in any way to make us do

>things differently, and she ignores my requests to stop nagging about these

>issues. " - UGH, that's how my mother is. You may as well talk to your feet. She

>can't hear you. I don't even bother approaching my mother about it anymore -

>UNLESS she brings up her need for help. Then I say something. Even then, she's

>so fearful she just won't go to a professional.

>

> My older daughter (13 yo) really, really, really hates visiting her. If my

>daughter isn't doing a happy dance in front of my mother and throwing rose

>petals in the air with joy at seeing my mother, my mother gets upset and

>complains, " what's wrong with her? why isn't she talking to me? what did i

>do????? blah blah blah? "

>

>

> I really don't have any advice; I soooo know how you feel. Once your mother's

>visit is over, definitely try to limit your time with her. I say that because,

>for me, being around my mother makes me physically sick. My stomach cramps, I

>get headaches, dizzy, depressed. It's awful.

>

>

> We're here for you when you need to vent -- and you will.

>

> Fiona

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks again for your great support and wise words. I needed this " reality

check " because in the world of people who grew up with " normal " parents the

idea of refusing to host a mom seems so ungrateful and unthinkable.

I have a lot to respond to all the great suggestions and comments I got from

you. But before that I would like to ask for your advice: how to tell my

mother she cannot come and stay at our house for two weeks?

Until now I told her she has to go to therapy before she can come. But after

reading about it I realized it's the wrong approach. She has to realize by

herself that something is wrong with her and find the drive and willingness

to make an effort to change. If it does not come from her it will never

work. It cannot happen because I pushed her into doing it by telling her

it's the only way to visit me.

So what should I tell her? That her behavior makes it too hard for me to

host her for such a long time? She'll say she has no idea what I am talking

about, and when I give her examples, she'll say - ok, ok, I won't do that

anymore. I need a short and clear message that is not an opening to

discussions. Any ideas?

Thanks again, you are great!

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of anuria67854

Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 7:36 AM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: new here, need help about meeting with my

BPD mom

I agree with this approach. However, a severely bpd mom who sees things in

black-and-white only will probably not accept a compromise situation such as

this. She wants it all her own way, or nothing.

I think its reasonable and rational for you both to stay in a hotel halfway

between you for a week's visit (I think that's a brilliant solution,

actually) but I'm guessing that your mother will not agree to it.

That's when the whole issue devolves onto you; you're the only one who can

know what you can and can't live with. You're the only one who knows what's

tolerable and what's going to push you over the edge.

And I agree that if your bpd mother refuses to accept this compromise

solution, ALL the responsibility for her unhappiness is shifted onto her

shoulders. Totally. All of it.

Here's a suggestion for you if you choose to have her stay in your home. Let

nada stay in your home and you and the kids go live in a nearby hotel for a

week and just visit her at your house. You do need a way to get away from

her when she acts out: an escape route. Just a thought.

Wishing you strength and endurance.

-Annie

PS:

A short course of anti-anxiety meds during the visit might help too. Those

got me through a horrible work situation once until I resolved it by

transferring to another department. I am a big fan of meds when there's a

good reason for them.

> > >

> > > > I don't know how to keep her in our life and let her enjoy the

> > > > grandchildren, the only joy she has left in her miserable life,

without

> > > > letting it taking a too big toll on my life.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Hi, . Sounds like your mom has read the " How to Make Your

Daughter

> > > Miserable " BPD handbook ;-) I think we can all relate to the things

you

> > have

> > > written. I can understand how hard it is to interrupt your kids'

> > > relationship with their grandparent, but sometimes it's what needs to

be

> > > done. Their safety and your sanity are by far the most important

things to

> > > consider. Personally, I would find raging and threatening suicide in

front

> > > of my kids to be unacceptable. No one who did that in my home would

ever

> > be

> > > invited back. Period.

> > >

> > > It is sad when our parents behave like children. Actually, my kids

behave

> > > far better than my mother does, so sometimes our parents are even

worse!

> > > Kids need boundaries, and it turns out so do our BPD parents. It is

> > actually

> > > not helpful to give them their way every time they throw a temper

tantrum.

> > > Do you have a therapist you can talk to about how to establish good

> > > boundaries with your mom? There are also good books out there that can

> > > help...I will let others suggest some.

> > >

> > > Your comment about your mom's thinking that staying as a guest in your

> > home

> > > was some kind of prize really stood out to me. It is like she feels

> > entitled

> > > to be in your space and act however she wants there, and if she can't

get

> > it

> > > she will throw a fit. But ultimately, it is your space. Whether you

have

> > > guests or not or how long they stay is up to you. Your mother has lots

of

> > > excuses, but if she can't stay for less than two weeks, and if she

can't

> > > stay in a hotel, then maybe she just can't come visit. You do not have

to

> > > give her way 100% of the time. Your needs matter, too.

> > >

> > > I don't have much to say other than I understand a lot of where you

are

> > > coming from. I support you as you strive to protect yourself and your

> > > children from her toxic behavior.

> > >

> > > Sveta

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

You're right that in order for therapy to be fruitful, your mom kind of needs to

seek it on her own volition. Another reason the therapy ultimatum sometimes

doesn't end up working is that a parent might actually go to therapy once or

twice--which to them means they've held up their end of the deal--or find a T

who falls for their tricks and won't see the " real " them. Then when they quit

(or get kicked out!) therapy they say they didn't need treatment or are all

better, and then you're stuck.

What you tell your mom is up to you. I think a simple, " No, that's not going to

work for me, " is plenty. You don't owe her any explanations. You don't have to

defend your decisions to her (even if she demands that you do).

But if you want to confront her about her behavior, that's not a bad thing, as

long as you realize you are not going to be able to change her. Clearly stating

the truth--that you are not comfortable inviting her to stay in your home

because of the way she has behaved in the past--is okay. She might disagree with

you or ask you for examples (boy do I understand how they twist those around!),

and you can just say, " I see that we disagree about that. It might not be a

problem for you, but it is a problem for me, " or something like that.

I chose to confront my parents about their behavior, and ended up having to do

it several times with more and more boundaries. I told them I don't trust them,

I don't want to share details of my personal life, I will never leave my

children alone with them, etc. I told them that in order for me to consider

giving them more trust, I would need to see evidence that their behavior has

changed, and that I don't think that kind of change would be possible without

therapy. The behavior didn't change, but I continued contact with them for a

couple of years, just limiting it more and more every time mom acted out. The

only place left where I was willing to see them was my own house because I could

easily ask them to leave if behavior was inappropriate, and only for a couple of

hours max at a time. I eventually realized that even that was exhausting--that I

would not be inviting ANYone else into my house that made me feel so uneasy and

hypervigilant--and asked them to stop contacting us altogether. I told them if

they ever decide to seek treatment that they can have their T call me. It was

kind of an ultimatum, but not a threatiening " Do this or else! " kind, just an " I

can't do this anymore, this is what I need in order to continue to invest in

this relationship " kind.

Anyway, that is my experience, and I'm sure you will have your own. Just

practice saying, " No, that isn't an option this time, " over and over. She might

choose to throw a fit, at which point you can say, " I am not willing to listen

to that, you can call back when you can speak respectfully to me. " and so forth.

> Until now I told her she has to go to therapy before she can come. But after

> reading about it I realized it's the wrong approach. She has to realize by

> herself that something is wrong with her and find the drive and willingness

> to make an effort to change. If it does not come from her it will never

> work. It cannot happen because I pushed her into doing it by telling her

> it's the only way to visit me.

>

> So what should I tell her? That her behavior makes it too hard for me to

> host her for such a long time? She'll say she has no idea what I am talking

> about, and when I give her examples, she'll say - ok, ok, I won't do that

> anymore. I need a short and clear message that is not an opening to

> discussions. Any ideas?

>

[Guest guest]

I told them if they ever decide to seek treatment that they can have their T

call me. It was kind of an ultimatum, but not a threatiening " Do this or else! "

kind, just an " I can't do this anymore, this is what I need in order to continue

to invest in this relationship " kind.

>

>

PS, I did this because it is the only possible scenario left that I can imagine

where I would be willing to attempt contact: them in treatment on their own for

a year or two, and all initial contact done with a mediator. It was a boundary

for me. They know what I need now to continue the relationship, and they get to

choose whether it is something they are willing to pursue. I used DEARMAN as a

technique to write that letter: the implicit " R " eward for going to therapy is

the opportunity to continue a relationship with their daughter and

grandchildren.

[Guest guest]

I think that its more than " you only exist to make her happy " , your nada refuses

to allow you to make her happy. Refusing to *ever* give you a compliment,

refusing to ever congratulate you on a job well done, is very, very hostile. In

my opinion.

I have an idea that maybe is too bizarre, but if it seems plausible to you,

maybe ask your therapist if this is just too, well, crazy to try.

It would work like this: your nada says " The post office did a good job

delivering the package, it arrived unbroken. " And you reply " Thank you mom! I

did do an extra-special job packing it so it would arrive safely. I'm glad the

extra padding I used worked. So, isn't that drawing my child did sweet... etc. "

So, you reply to her *as though* she complimented you.

I wonder what kind of impact that would have on her?

Probably, she'd just go dead silent as she did when you pointed out (twice) that

you deserved thanks too.

But, maybe it would help you tolerate her better, if you just pretended that she

said something nice to you?

I don't know. Maybe I've just got a wild hair and doing that would make things

worse.

So, its for you to decide.

-Annie

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > Welcome to the group.

> >

> > Your mother sounds much like mine, kind of a waif who won't take

responsibility

> >for her own feelings ( " it's just that I get so nervous; that's why I snap so

> >much!! " ) or her own situations (my mother lives alone and doesn't know how to

> >adjust the temp in her own apt; it's something a child could do but she

doesn't

> >WANT to learn).

> >

> > Waifs are very selfish. They don't want to be alone and they really don't

care

> >if you have a life or if you have something going on that's important. My

> >brother has gotten into filming documentaries, kind of as a hobby. He LOVES

it.

> >My mother thinks it's a waste of time, " I can't believe how dedicated he is

to

> >that crap! " What she means is, " I want him totally dedicated to ME. " She

doesn't

> >care that he's fulfilling himself, he's finding himself. Unimportant compared

to

> >her fears and worries.

> >

> > When you said, " she is full of fears and finds dangers in everything we and

the

> >kids do, and she nags about it constantly, trying in any way to make us do

> >things differently, and she ignores my requests to stop nagging about these

> >issues. " - UGH, that's how my mother is. You may as well talk to your feet.

She

> >can't hear you. I don't even bother approaching my mother about it anymore -

> >UNLESS she brings up her need for help. Then I say something. Even then,

she's

> >so fearful she just won't go to a professional.

> >

> > My older daughter (13 yo) really, really, really hates visiting her. If my

> >daughter isn't doing a happy dance in front of my mother and throwing rose

> >petals in the air with joy at seeing my mother, my mother gets upset and

> >complains, " what's wrong with her? why isn't she talking to me? what did i

> >do????? blah blah blah? "

> >

> >

> > I really don't have any advice; I soooo know how you feel. Once your

mother's

> >visit is over, definitely try to limit your time with her. I say that

because,

> >for me, being around my mother makes me physically sick. My stomach cramps, I

> >get headaches, dizzy, depressed. It's awful.

> >

> >

> > We're here for you when you need to vent -- and you will.

> >

> > Fiona

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes! I agree with svaktska, I was going to post that response too:

" That's not going to work for me " . And repeat it like a broken record if you

need to.

" I " statements work better than " you " statements; there's less there for the pd

person to argue with you about. Not that they won't try to argue with you, but,

you just say again, " No, sorry mom, but that's not going to work for me. "

No explanation, no justification, you don't have to convince her, she doesn't

have to agree with you or even understand... but that's just the way things are.

Sorry, mom. That's not going to work for me.

And if she persists, " I'm not going to discuss it any further with you mom. Is

there something else you wanted to talk with me about? No? Then, I need to get

some things done now. Talk to you later. 'Bye. "

-Annie

> > Until now I told her she has to go to therapy before she can come. But after

> > reading about it I realized it's the wrong approach. She has to realize by

> > herself that something is wrong with her and find the drive and willingness

> > to make an effort to change. If it does not come from her it will never

> > work. It cannot happen because I pushed her into doing it by telling her

> > it's the only way to visit me.

> >

> > So what should I tell her? That her behavior makes it too hard for me to

> > host her for such a long time? She'll say she has no idea what I am talking

> > about, and when I give her examples, she'll say - ok, ok, I won't do that

> > anymore. I need a short and clear message that is not an opening to

> > discussions. Any ideas?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

And even if she did get into therapy, she would pick and choose what she took

away from the visits. Or like my mom, selecting her therapists based on how easy

they will be on her. She would never see a woman, for instance, or someone that

will recognize and call her on her BS. Only a man, who she will cry crocodile

tears for and bat her eyelashes at, preferably one who doesn't really care about

her outcome but is only putting in time.

Just say no to FOG.

Perhaps if she insists she wants to visit, SHE should arrange her trip,

including the hotel stay and a taxi to get back and forth. If she takes charge

of that, she'll have less available energy to control you.

We KO's are always trying to make it easy on THEM--probably thinking if it is

easy on them, it will be easy for us. But then our careful plans always blow up

in our faces, and the BPD showers us with blame and anger anyway.

>

> Until now I told her she has to go to therapy before she can come. But after

reading about it I realized it's the wrong approach. She has to realize by

herself that something is wrong with her and find the drive and willingness to

make an effort to change. If it does not come from her it will never work.

[Guest guest]

I will never, ever again fall for the 'give and example' trick. This just puts

the nonBPD on the hotseat to defend ourselves when we haven't done anything

wrong. It is the BPDs way of deflecting blame onto others.

This type of speech is not helpful in any disagreement, with anyone, since

everyone has a different reality and memories are not reliable (especially in

heat of the moment).

[Guest guest]

Thank you again. I will try to stick to the " that's not going to work for me "

though I know there will be plenty of " why " and " but " . I don't want to confront

her behavior because I know there is no point. It will not change her, it will

only hurt her, and she will forget all about it anyway. I explained to her at

least twice why I think she needs therapy, with lots of patience, trying to be

respectful and not judgmental, and after each time she agreed with me, saying

how lucky she is to have such a smart daughter. And after a few days, like the

conversation never happened, asking me in sincere astonishment why do I think

she needs therapy?! She went to the family doctor and the doctor said there is

nothing wrong with her. I could not help telling her that if the family doctor

does not think there is anything wrong with her, the doctor is welcomed to have

her at her house for two weeks, but not me. I see no point in going there again.

I will try to stick to the short and clear message with minimum discussions.

> > > Until now I told her she has to go to therapy before she can come. But

after

> > > reading about it I realized it's the wrong approach. She has to realize by

> > > herself that something is wrong with her and find the drive and

willingness

> > > to make an effort to change. If it does not come from her it will never

> > > work. It cannot happen because I pushed her into doing it by telling her

> > > it's the only way to visit me.

> > >

> > > So what should I tell her? That her behavior makes it too hard for me to

> > > host her for such a long time? She'll say she has no idea what I am

talking

> > > about, and when I give her examples, she'll say - ok, ok, I won't do that

> > > anymore. I need a short and clear message that is not an opening to

> > > discussions. Any ideas?

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Another good response when she demands an explanation is,

" I believe I've already answered that question. "

If she is persistent with the " But Whys? " , then again, like a broken record, you

repeat (even if you have to interrupt her):

" I'm not going to discuss this with you further "

" I believe I have already answered that question "

" Is there anything else you wanted to talk with me about? No?

Then I need to go. I'll talk with you again later. Bye. "

Over our lifetimes they've trained us to not be assertive. What we're

describing here is simply being assertive. Its not rude. Its not

disrespectful. Its just stating the way things are, in a simple, direct way.

Maybe think of it as the way you speak with a three year old who is demanding

ice cream. " No, dear, you can't have any ice cream now, but you can have some

for dessert if you eat a good supper first. What flavor would you like for

dessert? You can pick chocolate or vanilla. (Deflecting the two-year-old's

attention can help, sometimes).

No! Not after supper! I want some chocolate ice cream NOW!

You can have some after supper, if you eat healthy first.

ICE CREAM NOW!

Would you like to help me make supper? You can wipe off the table, and get your

plate and cup and your place mat and your spoon and fork, and put them on the

table.

Etc. You're ignoring the inappropriate demand for ice cream. You're not

reacting to the three year old's anger with escalated, retaliatory anger. You're

simply being the adult, and you're " managing " the three year old.

Some nadas can be managed this way, sometimes; the more waify, infantile ones.

The real psychopathic, sadistic, toxic, witchy ones who *want* to hurt you,

badly, you just *run* from that type and keep well out of their grasp.

Just my two cents' worth, anyway. Each of us has to figure out what will and

won't work for us, in our own individual situation.

-Annie

> > > > Until now I told her she has to go to therapy before she can come. But

after

> > > > reading about it I realized it's the wrong approach. She has to realize

by

> > > > herself that something is wrong with her and find the drive and

willingness

> > > > to make an effort to change. If it does not come from her it will never

> > > > work. It cannot happen because I pushed her into doing it by telling her

> > > > it's the only way to visit me.

> > > >

> > > > So what should I tell her? That her behavior makes it too hard for me to

> > > > host her for such a long time? She'll say she has no idea what I am

talking

> > > > about, and when I give her examples, she'll say - ok, ok, I won't do

that

> > > > anymore. I need a short and clear message that is not an opening to

> > > > discussions. Any ideas?

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I triple agree, " that's not going to work for me " is brilliant.

With my mother -- and I think yours might be this way as well, you would know

best -- going into great detail about how she's hurt me or going into detail of

ANY kind is fruitless.

I realize I have to speak to her as one speaking to a 2 year old. They're not

going to understand a lot of detail, it's going to " confuse " them, and frustrate

me.

With my mother, less is more. " No, I can't call you every day in the evenings.

That simply won't work. " And she, as a child, will whine, plead, cry. I stand

firm. " I just can't. " And she's had to accept it.

, I can feel the tension you're feeling at having to confront her. I know,

it sucks! I don't like those situations with my mother. They're ugly and

they're hard. I still struggle with guilt. I role play with my therapist

sometimes and that helps.

Good luck! Doesn't it feel amazing just to consider that you can say NO?

Hugs! We're here for you.

Fiona

[Guest guest]

Annie, what you just wrote " no room for other people's feelings and experience " ,

" it's all about the BP's feelings " is pretty much a summary of what I have been

talking about with therapist.

It is with the help of my therapist, whom I have been seeing for 3 years now,

that I was able to discover that, and to realize there is another way.

One of my first " ahah " moment was when I started reading about narcissistic

personality disorder. Everything I read about it felt so incredibly familiar.

My BP Mom has almost always had an " all about my needs " attitude. It's like it

doesn't even cross her mind that there are other people, with other needs around

her.

I have felt like I was the emotional caretaker of her. I was labelled the

" strong child " , the child that could be strong when Mom was weak.

In some ways, she's a child in my eyes.

And even though her behaviour now feels selfish, when I look at it closely, it

seems to me she is not even thinking about others and then puts herself first,

she very often doesn't REALIZE there are others. There's just her. Period.

So yes, I agree with you on the correlation between narcissism and BP.

When I read about Narcissictic Personality Disorder, I was convinced this was my

Mom. But I feel like with BP, there's another level, a level of violence I would

say. The raging, the screaming, manipulating and twisting things around is not

necessarily is NP alone I think.

At the core of both BP and NPD, it seems like the functioning is the same

though. " it's all about me & my needs " would sum it up.