SWOE: anyone else feel this?

[Guest guest]

I am 2/3 through SWOE and am gaining a much better understanding of myself. But

honestly, after reading the dialogue in the book and becoming fully informed

about BPD over this past year, I would not choose to cultivate a relationship

with one if I saw a way out. It is FAR too much work for the nonBPD.

My parent I can keep at arms length. I would probably kick a BPD parter to the

curb. I can only see working at a relationship with a BPD if it was my child.

Not to say I do not feel sorry for the BPD, but enough is enough. They are the

ones mentally ill and driving everyone away. It seems like the nons still have

to jump through hoops, just a different set of hoops, just to survive.

Maybe I am just tired from 5 decades of Mom's unspoken, unacknowledged illness,

and how everyone else but her has been expected to make her comfortable. I am

tired and worn out; it's too much work to try to care about a relationship with

my 78 year old mother that will never be healthy.

Am I a monster to feel this way? I just feel I am DONE giving any more energy to

her or fada. It's a big waste of my time.

[Guest guest]

Hi Echobabe1

I don't think you sound like a monster, I think you sound like a sane,

rational person who is tired of being twisted like a pretzel.

My own Nada acknowledges she is a borderline, but uses the diagnosis as a

get-out-of-jail-free-card. " Of course I don't feel sorry for so-and so, I

have BPD ! "

They chew us up, and spit us out, and still expect us to perform as

ballast against their emotional storms. We are not real to them. Our

emotional and physical needs are not real to them. As KOs, we get fed up

and tired of performing emotional triage, while dodging flying shrapnel,

for someone whose wounds are self inflicted. Enough is enough. You are* not

* the monster, your just fed up.

All the Best! Sunspot Deb

>

>

> I am 2/3 through SWOE and am gaining a much better understanding of myself.

> But honestly, after reading the dialogue in the book and becoming fully

> informed about BPD over this past year, I would not choose to cultivate a

> relationship with one if I saw a way out. It is FAR too much work for the

> nonBPD.

>

> My parent I can keep at arms length. I would probably kick a BPD parter to

> the curb. I can only see working at a relationship with a BPD if it was my

> child.

>

> Not to say I do not feel sorry for the BPD, but enough is enough. They are

> the ones mentally ill and driving everyone away. It seems like the nons

> still have to jump through hoops, just a different set of hoops, just to

> survive.

>

>

> Maybe I am just tired from 5 decades of Mom's unspoken, unacknowledged

> illness, and how everyone else but her has been expected to make her

> comfortable. I am tired and worn out; it's too much work to try to care

> about a relationship with my 78 year old mother that will never be healthy.

>

> Am I a monster to feel this way? I just feel I am DONE giving any more

> energy to her or fada. It's a big waste of my time.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

" Am I a monster to feel this way? I just feel I am DONE giving any more energy

to her or fada. It's a big waste of my time. "

I just yelled, " NO, you're not! " at the screen. You can't hear me!

I don't think at all you're a monster. I feel the same way. I just no longer

have the energy to tame, talk off ledges, agree with in order to be phony, hide

feelings from, try to understand, a BPD, or really, any needy personality.

When I meet people who strike me this way, esp at church, I find an excuse to

get away. I just can't invest time and energy in manipulative people like this.

>

> I am 2/3 through SWOE and am gaining a much better understanding of myself.

But honestly, after reading the dialogue in the book and becoming fully informed

about BPD over this past year, I would not choose to cultivate a relationship

with one if I saw a way out. It is FAR too much work for the nonBPD.

>

> My parent I can keep at arms length. I would probably kick a BPD parter to the

curb. I can only see working at a relationship with a BPD if it was my child.

>

> Not to say I do not feel sorry for the BPD, but enough is enough. They are the

ones mentally ill and driving everyone away. It seems like the nons still have

to jump through hoops, just a different set of hoops, just to survive.

>

> Maybe I am just tired from 5 decades of Mom's unspoken, unacknowledged

illness, and how everyone else but her has been expected to make her

comfortable. I am tired and worn out; it's too much work to try to care about a

relationship with my 78 year old mother that will never be healthy.

>

> Am I a monster to feel this way? I just feel I am DONE giving any more energy

to her or fada. It's a big waste of my time.

>

[Guest guest]

No, you are not a monster. Its normal to feel angry, tired, and resentful when

you've been used and mistreated by someone your whole life.

It worked out for my Sister that going temporarily No Contact with our

demanding, emotionally needy, critical and irritable nada gives her a much

needed break or " vacation " from nada.

Before therapy, Sister would try frantically to appease nada and give nada even

more and more of her time in an effort to keep nada happy and on an even keel,

but Sister gradually realized during therapy that catering to our nada wasn't

helping.

So, Sister started initiating No Contact when nada would act out badly. In a

way, much like putting a toddler in the time-out room.

At first Sister felt horribly guilty for doing that, but, she's come to realize

that sometimes it helps. And it gives Sister a few days, or a few weeks, or

even several months of freedom from nada's " Mr. Hyde " behaviors: inappropriate,

childish demands, pouting, ugly, hateful remarks, and even false accusations.

So, no, I do not consider you a monster. You are an abused child who finally

realized that she has the power to say " no more. "

-Annie

>

> I am 2/3 through SWOE and am gaining a much better understanding of myself.

But honestly, after reading the dialogue in the book and becoming fully informed

about BPD over this past year, I would not choose to cultivate a relationship

with one if I saw a way out. It is FAR too much work for the nonBPD.

>

> My parent I can keep at arms length. I would probably kick a BPD parter to the

curb. I can only see working at a relationship with a BPD if it was my child.

>

> Not to say I do not feel sorry for the BPD, but enough is enough. They are the

ones mentally ill and driving everyone away. It seems like the nons still have

to jump through hoops, just a different set of hoops, just to survive.

>

> Maybe I am just tired from 5 decades of Mom's unspoken, unacknowledged

illness, and how everyone else but her has been expected to make her

comfortable. I am tired and worn out; it's too much work to try to care about a

relationship with my 78 year old mother that will never be healthy.

>

> Am I a monster to feel this way? I just feel I am DONE giving any more energy

to her or fada. It's a big waste of my time.

>

[Guest guest]

Really well-put and on-target observations, in my opinion. I like your style,

DB.

-Annie

>

> >

> >

> > I am 2/3 through SWOE and am gaining a much better understanding of myself.

> > But honestly, after reading the dialogue in the book and becoming fully

> > informed about BPD over this past year, I would not choose to cultivate a

> > relationship with one if I saw a way out. It is FAR too much work for the

> > nonBPD.

> >

> > My parent I can keep at arms length. I would probably kick a BPD parter to

> > the curb. I can only see working at a relationship with a BPD if it was my

> > child.

> >

> > Not to say I do not feel sorry for the BPD, but enough is enough. They are

> > the ones mentally ill and driving everyone away. It seems like the nons

> > still have to jump through hoops, just a different set of hoops, just to

> > survive.

> >

>

>

> >

> > Maybe I am just tired from 5 decades of Mom's unspoken, unacknowledged

> > illness, and how everyone else but her has been expected to make her

> > comfortable. I am tired and worn out; it's too much work to try to care

> > about a relationship with my 78 year old mother that will never be healthy.

> >

> > Am I a monster to feel this way? I just feel I am DONE giving any more

> > energy to her or fada. It's a big waste of my time.

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Annie, I've been lurking for a while, afraid My BPD family member

could pick me out, or track me through my posts, but my own buttons got

pushed when I read about the " gift " of a life insurance policy on a newborn,

with the BPD as beneficiary. Can you put my mind at ease, and reassure me

that my email address is private, or tell me how to better insure anonymity?

Before Nada went NC, she went into a 200 mile rant (we were on the road

trip to hell) about a " friend's " daughter who supposedly told " despicable

and heinous lies " about her family on facebook, and the legal ramifications

that were soon to occur. This was, of course a thinly veiled threat against

myself, since Nada commits impulsive, imprudent vengeful acts, tells on

herself, and, then becomes afraid I will tell, or dissociates, and can't

remember for sure what she did, or, remembers, but feels entitled to commit

her seriously bad behavior. I don't have a facebook acct., nor am I likely

to, neither do I tweet, etc., and I would *never *hurt and embarrass my

family by broadcasting our shared grief, pain and embarrassment.

The issues of character assassination have had devastating effects on

myself and family, and the perverse pleasure she takes in revenge is

seriously terrifying. We moved all the way across the country to put

distance between her, and ourselves. However, she has called bosses,

landlords, physicians, teachers and neighbors pretending to be me, and

mining for information. She has bragged / threatened for years, that she can

" just stop loving " me, and evidently has, if there ever was any real love

for me in he first place. I should be relieved, and yet, it hurts. I have

become the repository for her disdain and contempt, and focal point of her

rage. After recent occurrences, I hope to never cross paths with her again.

She scares me stupid. I will never eat anything she has prepared, ride in a

car she is driving, keep a gift she sends me, or believe anything she says,

nor will any member of my immediate family. I wish I could just stop

loving her, but it hasn't happened yet.

Thanks for listening, and any privacy recommendations you can make will be

greatly appreciated Sunspot Deb

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 12:15 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Really well-put and on-target observations, in my opinion. I like your

> style, DB.

> -Annie*

> * g

> >

> > Hi Echobabe1

> >

> > I don't think you sound like a monster, I think you sound like a sane,

> > rational person who is tired of being twisted like a pretzel.

> > My own Nada acknowledges she is a borderline, but uses the diagnosis as a

> > get-out-of-jail-free-card. " Of course I don't feel sorry for so-and so, I

> > have BPD ! "

> > They chew us up, and spit us out, and still expect us to perform as

> > ballast against their emotional storms. We are not real to them. Our

> > emotional and physical needs are not real to them. As KOs, we get fed up

> > and tired of performing emotional triage, while dodging flying shrapnel,

> > for someone whose wounds are self inflicted. Enough is enough. You are*

> not

> > * the monster, your just fed up.

> > All the Best! Sunspot Deb

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > I am 2/3 through SWOE and am gaining a much better understanding of

> myself.

> > > But honestly, after reading the dialogue in the book and becoming fully

> > > informed about BPD over this past year, I would not choose to cultivate

> a

> > > relationship with one if I saw a way out. It is FAR too much work for

> the

> > > nonBPD.

> > >

> > > My parent I can keep at arms length. I would probably kick a BPD parter

> to

> > > the curb. I can only see working at a relationship with a BPD if it was

> my

> > > child.

> > >

> > > Not to say I do not feel sorry for the BPD, but enough is enough. They

> are

> > > the ones mentally ill and driving everyone away. It seems like the nons

> > > still have to jump through hoops, just a different set of hoops, just

> to

> > > survive.

> > >

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Maybe I am just tired from 5 decades of Mom's unspoken, unacknowledged

> > > illness, and how everyone else but her has been expected to make her

> > > comfortable. I am tired and worn out; it's too much work to try to care

> > > about a relationship with my 78 year old mother that will never be

> healthy.

> > >

> > > Am I a monster to feel this way? I just feel I am DONE giving any more

> > > energy to her or fada. It's a big waste of my time.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Yes, its recommended (actually its required) by the owner of this site, Randi

Kreger, that we post anonymously here for our own safety.

It appears that you chose your own real name as your Yahoo! ID, so, your name is

displayed each time you post.

If you go to Yahoo and create a new, anonymous ID for yourself: anything you

like ( " Ilovekitties " or " SuperKid " or whatever) then re-join this Group using

your new, anonymous ID, then you'll be safer.

If you want, you can also go back to all your earlier posts and delete them so

your real name will not appear anywhere here. You can do this at the Group site

(I don't know whether you can delete your own messages by e-mail, though.) If

your nada is computer-savvy: knows how to use Facebook, knows how to send

e-mail, then its a good idea to go the anonymous route for Yahoo! Groups.

-Annie

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I am 2/3 through SWOE and am gaining a much better understanding of

> > myself.

> > > > But honestly, after reading the dialogue in the book and becoming fully

> > > > informed about BPD over this past year, I would not choose to cultivate

> > a

> > > > relationship with one if I saw a way out. It is FAR too much work for

> > the

> > > > nonBPD.

> > > >

> > > > My parent I can keep at arms length. I would probably kick a BPD parter

> > to

> > > > the curb. I can only see working at a relationship with a BPD if it was

> > my

> > > > child.

> > > >

> > > > Not to say I do not feel sorry for the BPD, but enough is enough. They

> > are

> > > > the ones mentally ill and driving everyone away. It seems like the nons

> > > > still have to jump through hoops, just a different set of hoops, just

> > to

> > > > survive.

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Maybe I am just tired from 5 decades of Mom's unspoken, unacknowledged

> > > > illness, and how everyone else but her has been expected to make her

> > > > comfortable. I am tired and worn out; it's too much work to try to care

> > > > about a relationship with my 78 year old mother that will never be

> > healthy.

> > > >

> > > > Am I a monster to feel this way? I just feel I am DONE giving any more

> > > > energy to her or fada. It's a big waste of my time.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Thanks Sunspot Deb!

Love the pretzel analogy. And the fact your nada uses the diagnosis to still

avoid responsibility just proves we are in a forever losing situation with the

BPD.

>

> >

> >

> > I am 2/3 through SWOE and am gaining a much better understanding of myself.

> > But honestly, after reading the dialogue in the book and becoming fully

> > informed about BPD over this past year, I would not choose to cultivate a

> > relationship with one if I saw a way out. It is FAR too much work for the

> > nonBPD.

> >

> > My parent I can keep at arms length. I would probably kick a BPD parter to

> > the curb. I can only see working at a relationship with a BPD if it was my

> > child.

> >

> > Not to say I do not feel sorry for the BPD, but enough is enough. They are

> > the ones mentally ill and driving everyone away. It seems like the nons

> > still have to jump through hoops, just a different set of hoops, just to

> > survive.

> >

>

>

> >

> > Maybe I am just tired from 5 decades of Mom's unspoken, unacknowledged

> > illness, and how everyone else but her has been expected to make her

> > comfortable. I am tired and worn out; it's too much work to try to care

> > about a relationship with my 78 year old mother that will never be healthy.

> >

> > Am I a monster to feel this way? I just feel I am DONE giving any more

> > energy to her or fada. It's a big waste of my time.

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> If you go to Yahoo and create a new, anonymous ID for yourself: anything you

like ( " Ilovekitties " or " SuperKid " or whatever) then re-join this Group using

your new, anonymous ID, then you'll be safer.

From your Yahoo account, click on " Account Information. " Under " Account

Settings, " you can create an alias. Then, when you're signed into this board,

you can go to " Edit Membership " at the top of the page and select your alias to

use here.

I do recommend using a decoy e-mail account. I set one up just for yahoo, since

it displays with my messages.

Sveta

[Guest guest]

I accidentally deleted the part where I said that you don't actually have to

create an entirely new yahoo acct. The instructions for making an alias can be

used under your existing account. That's what I've done here.

[Guest guest]

I think I had an anxiety attack, or maybe an out of body experience . I

went straight to my yahoo acct, where I had an alias, that was supposed to

cover my I D, but did not. Once I stop hyperventilating I'll go to Oz

and rejoin. Thanks, I may need to ask for verification again, later. D

>

>

> I accidentally deleted the part where I said that you don't actually have

> to create an entirely new yahoo acct. The instructions for making an alias

> can be used under your existing account. That's what I've done here.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Annie,

I read you entire post and burst into tears at the mention of being an abused

child. Thanks for the validation--I didn't realize my inner self needed that

today.

> >

> > I am 2/3 through SWOE and am gaining a much better understanding of myself.

But honestly, after reading the dialogue in the book and becoming fully informed

about BPD over this past year, I would not choose to cultivate a relationship

with one if I saw a way out. It is FAR too much work for the nonBPD.

> >

> > My parent I can keep at arms length. I would probably kick a BPD parter to

the curb. I can only see working at a relationship with a BPD if it was my

child.

> >

> > Not to say I do not feel sorry for the BPD, but enough is enough. They are

the ones mentally ill and driving everyone away. It seems like the nons still

have to jump through hoops, just a different set of hoops, just to survive.

> >

> > Maybe I am just tired from 5 decades of Mom's unspoken, unacknowledged

illness, and how everyone else but her has been expected to make her

comfortable. I am tired and worn out; it's too much work to try to care about a

relationship with my 78 year old mother that will never be healthy.

> >

> > Am I a monster to feel this way? I just feel I am DONE giving any more

energy to her or fada. It's a big waste of my time.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Annie, I'm trying not to panic. but I can't seem to make this work. I tried

to re register on Oz, but am not doing something right. I reregistered with

yahoo, and have a new email address to useI I just can't figure out what

I'm doing wrong on Oz. I really appreciate the help. I am not very computer

savvy. Sunspot

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 3:34 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Yes, its recommended (actually its required) by the owner of this site,

> Randi Kreger, that we post anonymously here for our own safety.

>

> It appears that you chose your own real name as your Yahoo! ID, so, your

> name is displayed each time you post.

>

> If you go to Yahoo and create a new, anonymous ID for yourself: anything

> you like ( " Ilovekitties " or " SuperKid " or whatever) then re-join this Group

> using your new, anonymous ID, then you'll be safer.

>

> If you want, you can also go back to all your earlier posts and delete them

> so your real name will not appear anywhere here. You can do this at the

> Group site (I don't know whether you can delete your own messages by e-mail,

> though.) If your nada is computer-savvy: knows how to use Facebook, knows

> how to send e-mail, then its a good idea to go the anonymous route for

> Yahoo! Groups.

>

>

> -Annie

>

>

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I am 2/3 through SWOE and am gaining a much better understanding of

> > > myself.

> > > > > But honestly, after reading the dialogue in the book and becoming

> fully

> > > > > informed about BPD over this past year, I would not choose to

> cultivate

> > > a

> > > > > relationship with one if I saw a way out. It is FAR too much work

> for

> > > the

> > > > > nonBPD.

> > > > >

> > > > > My parent I can keep at arms length. I would probably kick a BPD

> parter

> > > to

> > > > > the curb. I can only see working at a relationship with a BPD if it

> was

> > > my

> > > > > child.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not to say I do not feel sorry for the BPD, but enough is enough.

> They

> > > are

> > > > > the ones mentally ill and driving everyone away. It seems like the

> nons

> > > > > still have to jump through hoops, just a different set of hoops,

> just

> > > to

> > > > > survive.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Maybe I am just tired from 5 decades of Mom's unspoken,

> unacknowledged

> > > > > illness, and how everyone else but her has been expected to make

> her

> > > > > comfortable. I am tired and worn out; it's too much work to try to

> care

> > > > > about a relationship with my 78 year old mother that will never be

> > > healthy.

> > > > >

> > > > > Am I a monster to feel this way? I just feel I am DONE giving any

> more

> > > > > energy to her or fada. It's a big waste of my time.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

I tried the alias thing but it still displayed my email underneath the alias

name on the web view, so much for anonymity! It really would be nice if to

have one email and be able to keep group id's truly separate.

>

> I think I had an anxiety attack, or maybe an out of body experience . I

> went straight to my yahoo acct, where I had an alias, that was supposed to

> cover my I D, but did not. Once I stop hyperventilating I'll go to Oz

> and rejoin. Thanks, I may need to ask for verification again, later. D

[Guest guest]

I just had the same experience, I tried the alias..... I really need some

help here... rejoining at oz not going smoothly... Sunspot

On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 6:54 PM, eliza92@... <

eliza92@...> wrote:

>

>

> I tried the alias thing but it still displayed my email underneath the

> alias name on the web view, so much for anonymity! It really would be nice

> if to have one email and be able to keep group id's truly separate.

>

>

> >

> > I think I had an anxiety attack, or maybe an out of body experience

> . I

> > went straight to my yahoo acct, where I had an alias, that was supposed

> to

> > cover my I D, but did not. Once I stop hyperventilating I'll go to Oz

> > and rejoin. Thanks, I may need to ask for verification again, later. D

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

" Maybe I am just tired from 5 decades of Mom's unspoken, unacknowledged

> > > illness, and how everyone else but her has been expected to make her

> > > comfortable. I am tired and worn out; it's too much work to try to care

> > > about a relationship with my 78 year old mother that will never be

> healthy.

> > >

> > > Am I a monster to feel this way? I just feel I am DONE giving any more

> > > energy to her or fada. It's a big waste of my time. "

Amen and amen.

And amen again.

--LL.

[Guest guest]

Some more thoughts:

You know, I used to think about this a lot, and feel bad. Like, I'm this

person's daughter, I should go the extra mile for her. But I hated it. It was

overwhelming, it was just too much. Feeling like, I should be able to put

myself out there for this person who's my mother, who brought me into this

world, and then just having a sick stomach the instant I hear her voice, or see

an email from her on my screen...well, now you have a clear illustration of the

term, " cognitive dissonance. " (I think.)

You know how I got the answer? Star Wars.

No kidding, don't laugh. I didn't get to get into Star Wars when I was a kid,

or Star Trek, or anything else, because if I liked it, it was stupid. (I was

only supposed to like what nada liked.) So I had about a ten year period of

childhood regression, and wrote a lot of SW fan fic. (There's a whole online

community to play with, and I even deluded myself into thinking I could publish

it, because *one* famous author got the opportunity thirty years ago. Who wrote

that song, was it Simon... " Still crazy, after all these years " ?)

But, in the course of writing fan fic, I stumbled upon the question: Why

couldn't I be as good as Luke? Here was Darth Vader, having killed all the

Jedi, and been the Emperor's evil henchman for twenty years, subjugating and

terrorizing everyone in the galaxy, and he even cuts Luke's HAND off, for

Chrissakes, and Luke can still forgive him and hold out for him to get better.

Kind of makes you and me look like real shitheads, doesn't it?

And then I thought deeply about this, and I hit on the answer. Luke can do this

because HE WASN'T THERE.

He was not raised by this person. Luke was raised by a lot kinder parents, and

he was fed on dreams that his father was a much better person than he really

was. And every boy wants to know who his father is. Luke was raised in a kind

and supportive environment, with a deep father hunger. When Vader killed all

the Jedi, Luke was not there. When he knelt to the Emperor, Luke was not there.

When his father killed his mother, Luke was not there. (Well, he was too young

to remember.)

All the bad things that Vader had done, were not personally experienced by Luke.

OK, Vadey cut his hand off, but both times Luke drew swords first, and it was

just this one experience of hurt. The fact that Luke hadn't personally been

hurt was the reason he could stand there and take the abuse.

If he had've been there from the beginning, he would not have been able to do

this. We, my friends, have lost too much. We missed out on healthy experiences

we should have had, we turned right when we should have turned left, we didn't

learn what we needed to, and we were hurt over and over again by these people at

every turn.

We don't have anything left to give our BPD's. They have beaten it right out of

us, in most cases literally. We don't even have what we need for ourselves.

So, no, we can't be Luke Skywalker to our nadas' Darth Vader, AND WE SHOULDN'T

EXPECT OURSELVES TO.

I just found a passage in Get Me Out Of Here where Reiland's therapist

says the exact same thing.

--LL.

[Guest guest]

Not only that, but if someone doesn't put a toddler in the time out room, the

toddler stands NO chance of ever being able to learn anything, does it?

Babying and babying and babying and babying these people just doesn't do them

the favors they say it does, anyway.

[Guest guest]

LL - love the analogy! Also want to add: Luke could do all of this

because...well....it's fiction! And not just fiction, but science fiction. The

kind where people try to imagine the impossible

>

> Some more thoughts:

>

> You know, I used to think about this a lot, and feel bad. Like, I'm this

person's daughter, I should go the extra mile for her. But I hated it. It was

overwhelming, it was just too much. Feeling like, I should be able to put

myself out there for this person who's my mother, who brought me into this

world, and then just having a sick stomach the instant I hear her voice, or see

an email from her on my screen...well, now you have a clear illustration of the

term, " cognitive dissonance. " (I think.)

>

> You know how I got the answer? Star Wars.

>

> No kidding, don't laugh. I didn't get to get into Star Wars when I was a kid,

or Star Trek, or anything else, because if I liked it, it was stupid. (I was

only supposed to like what nada liked.) So I had about a ten year period of

childhood regression, and wrote a lot of SW fan fic. (There's a whole online

community to play with, and I even deluded myself into thinking I could publish

it, because *one* famous author got the opportunity thirty years ago. Who wrote

that song, was it Simon... " Still crazy, after all these years " ?)

>

> But, in the course of writing fan fic, I stumbled upon the question: Why

couldn't I be as good as Luke? Here was Darth Vader, having killed all the

Jedi, and been the Emperor's evil henchman for twenty years, subjugating and

terrorizing everyone in the galaxy, and he even cuts Luke's HAND off, for

Chrissakes, and Luke can still forgive him and hold out for him to get better.

>

> Kind of makes you and me look like real shitheads, doesn't it?

>

> And then I thought deeply about this, and I hit on the answer. Luke can do

this because HE WASN'T THERE.

>

> He was not raised by this person. Luke was raised by a lot kinder parents,

and he was fed on dreams that his father was a much better person than he really

was. And every boy wants to know who his father is. Luke was raised in a kind

and supportive environment, with a deep father hunger. When Vader killed all

the Jedi, Luke was not there. When he knelt to the Emperor, Luke was not there.

When his father killed his mother, Luke was not there. (Well, he was too young

to remember.)

>

> All the bad things that Vader had done, were not personally experienced by

Luke. OK, Vadey cut his hand off, but both times Luke drew swords first, and it

was just this one experience of hurt. The fact that Luke hadn't personally been

hurt was the reason he could stand there and take the abuse.

>

> If he had've been there from the beginning, he would not have been able to do

this. We, my friends, have lost too much. We missed out on healthy experiences

we should have had, we turned right when we should have turned left, we didn't

learn what we needed to, and we were hurt over and over again by these people at

every turn.

>

> We don't have anything left to give our BPD's. They have beaten it right out

of us, in most cases literally. We don't even have what we need for ourselves.

>

> So, no, we can't be Luke Skywalker to our nadas' Darth Vader, AND WE SHOULDN'T

EXPECT OURSELVES TO.

>

> I just found a passage in Get Me Out Of Here where Reiland's therapist

says the exact same thing.

>

> --LL.

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know how to do the alias thing, but I have created different anonymous

Yahoo! IDs to use and that works for me. Or you can use an ID from another

Internet service provider, like Google or Earthlink or AOL.

First, create a new Yahoo! ID that will have a new address.

Then when you are signed in as your new ID, go to:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/WTOAdultChildren1

It will say " Join This Group " near the top of the page.

Click on that and it will guide you into joining this Group.

-Annie

> > >

> > > I think I had an anxiety attack, or maybe an out of body experience

> > . I

> > > went straight to my yahoo acct, where I had an alias, that was supposed

> > to

> > > cover my I D, but did not. Once I stop hyperventilating I'll go to Oz

> > > and rejoin. Thanks, I may need to ask for verification again, later. D

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Excellent point. If Luke had been raised by Vader and had experienced cruel,

shockingly abusive treatment every day of his life, it would have been a

different Luke who got his hand cut off.

In fact, knowing who his father was, experiencing the crazy every day, and

being well aware of all the evil things Vader had done, Luke would probably

simply have just skewered the sob at some point before all that hand-cutting-off

part happened.

-Annie

>

> Some more thoughts:

>

> You know, I used to think about this a lot, and feel bad. Like, I'm this

person's daughter, I should go the extra mile for her. But I hated it. It was

overwhelming, it was just too much. Feeling like, I should be able to put

myself out there for this person who's my mother, who brought me into this

world, and then just having a sick stomach the instant I hear her voice, or see

an email from her on my screen...well, now you have a clear illustration of the

term, " cognitive dissonance. " (I think.)

>

> You know how I got the answer? Star Wars.

>

> No kidding, don't laugh. I didn't get to get into Star Wars when I was a kid,

or Star Trek, or anything else, because if I liked it, it was stupid. (I was

only supposed to like what nada liked.) So I had about a ten year period of

childhood regression, and wrote a lot of SW fan fic. (There's a whole online

community to play with, and I even deluded myself into thinking I could publish

it, because *one* famous author got the opportunity thirty years ago. Who wrote

that song, was it Simon... " Still crazy, after all these years " ?)

>

> But, in the course of writing fan fic, I stumbled upon the question: Why

couldn't I be as good as Luke? Here was Darth Vader, having killed all the

Jedi, and been the Emperor's evil henchman for twenty years, subjugating and

terrorizing everyone in the galaxy, and he even cuts Luke's HAND off, for

Chrissakes, and Luke can still forgive him and hold out for him to get better.

>

> Kind of makes you and me look like real shitheads, doesn't it?

>

> And then I thought deeply about this, and I hit on the answer. Luke can do

this because HE WASN'T THERE.

>

> He was not raised by this person. Luke was raised by a lot kinder parents,

and he was fed on dreams that his father was a much better person than he really

was. And every boy wants to know who his father is. Luke was raised in a kind

and supportive environment, with a deep father hunger. When Vader killed all

the Jedi, Luke was not there. When he knelt to the Emperor, Luke was not there.

When his father killed his mother, Luke was not there. (Well, he was too young

to remember.)

>

> All the bad things that Vader had done, were not personally experienced by

Luke. OK, Vadey cut his hand off, but both times Luke drew swords first, and it

was just this one experience of hurt. The fact that Luke hadn't personally been

hurt was the reason he could stand there and take the abuse.

>

> If he had've been there from the beginning, he would not have been able to do

this. We, my friends, have lost too much. We missed out on healthy experiences

we should have had, we turned right when we should have turned left, we didn't

learn what we needed to, and we were hurt over and over again by these people at

every turn.

>

> We don't have anything left to give our BPD's. They have beaten it right out

of us, in most cases literally. We don't even have what we need for ourselves.

>

> So, no, we can't be Luke Skywalker to our nadas' Darth Vader, AND WE SHOULDN'T

EXPECT OURSELVES TO.

>

> I just found a passage in Get Me Out Of Here where Reiland's therapist

says the exact same thing.

>

> --LL.

>

[Guest guest]

I'm in AA and it reminds me of people who get sponsors, actually the same is for

OA too and the sponsor requires certain things in order to have the

relationship, like the person go to meetings and work steps and blah blah

blah...

I am thinking that for me it would have to be this way, you have to get

diagnosed, you have to go to therapy, you have to complete the required amount

of DBT training or whatever it is that the person has to do with DBT. The DBT is

non-negotiable.

I think probably alot of the dishrags stay 'for the kids'. My mother stayed with

my dad because she's such a freaking codependent it was easy to lie to herself,

in fact, lying and protecting the sickness of a screwed up person is practically

her specialty in life. Now I am dealing with the fact that she is almost

certainly a waif and I am on the verge of NC and I can almost taste the relief.

>

> I am 2/3 through SWOE and am gaining a much better understanding of myself.

But honestly, after reading the dialogue in the book and becoming fully informed

about BPD over this past year, I would not choose to cultivate a relationship

with one if I saw a way out. It is FAR too much work for the nonBPD.

>

> My parent I can keep at arms length. I would probably kick a BPD parter to the

curb. I can only see working at a relationship with a BPD if it was my child.

>

> Not to say I do not feel sorry for the BPD, but enough is enough. They are the

ones mentally ill and driving everyone away. It seems like the nons still have

to jump through hoops, just a different set of hoops, just to survive.

>

> Maybe I am just tired from 5 decades of Mom's unspoken, unacknowledged

illness, and how everyone else but her has been expected to make her

comfortable. I am tired and worn out; it's too much work to try to care about a

relationship with my 78 year old mother that will never be healthy.

>

> Am I a monster to feel this way? I just feel I am DONE giving any more energy

to her or fada. It's a big waste of my time.

>

[Guest guest]

But then these people stay " for the kids " and then they don't help the kids!

They just abandon them to the BPD mom, thus actually using the kids to help take

care of them!

*headdesk*

Arrrgh. With friends like this, you don't need any enemies.

[Guest guest]

Even children who haven't been disciplined or shown how to behave often grow up

and make up for that deficit, figuring out how the world works and becoming

responsible adults.

Nadas...not so much. Ann Lawson says that BPDs don't learn from their

mistakes, either...so these overgrown toddlers are never going to grow up. What

is understandable in a child's immaturity is just so repellent in a person who

is supposed to be an adult.

>

> Not only that, but if someone doesn't put a toddler in the time out room, the

toddler stands NO chance of ever being able to learn anything, does it?

>

> Babying and babying and babying and babying these people just doesn't do them

the favors they say it does, anyway.

>

[Guest guest]

yep. with men, it's more of a hard choice I think because they know there is

very little chance of them getting custody. they just are going to stay there

and lay low. but it's okay not to tell lies to children. they could tell the

truth to children but then they would be admitting that they can't protect their

own child, take away their pain, or change the situation. lying and going into

denial does far more harm in the long run.

>

> But then these people stay " for the kids " and then they don't help the kids!

They just abandon them to the BPD mom, thus actually using the kids to help take

care of them!

>

> *headdesk*

>

> Arrrgh. With friends like this, you don't need any enemies.

>