Re: Black and White Thinking

[Guest guest]

I don't really know the answer to that question, but recent studies of the

brains of those with bpd seem to conclude that there is physical, organic

cognitive dysfunction going on in the way those with bpd perceive and interpret

emotional information.

Possibly, the " black and white " thinking of borderline pd might be due to

something like " bad wiring " in the brain. Sort of like someone who is born

color-blind can't perceive the difference in blue and green, the person with bpd

can't perceive nuances of emotional expression or " shades of gray " in other

people's faces, tone of voice, body language, or words.

Perhaps bpd is like being " emotionally color-blind " or " emotionally tone-deaf. "

Here is a link to a Baylor experiment that concluded that the brains of those

with bpd aren't registering on some level that they're receiving anything in a

game of give-and-take:

http://www.bcm.edu/news/item.cfm?newsID=1177

And here is an excerpt from a study concluding that those with bpd will tend to

interpret neutral facial expressions as negative/hostile.

http://www.klinikundforschung.de/sup/heft9/neurocognition.htm

" ...In the first study to assess individuals with BPD in face perception and

appraisal, faces of varying emotional expressions were shown to a BPD and

control group (44). The BPD group was less accurate than controls in identifying

the emotions on the faces. A second study found that individuals with BPD (with

a history of childhood abuse) were as accurate as controls, but were biased in

interpreting negative expressions to neutral faces (45).

These findings are consistent with a neuroimaging study that found greater

amygdala activation in BPD relative to control in when viewed neutral faces (46;

reviewed below). Individuals with BPD in this imaging study also appeared to

infer negative intentions and untrustworthiness in the neutral faces. Finally,

in a recent study (47) BPD features in a non-clinical sample were associated

with a higher degree of anxious (fearful) attachment, which, in turn, was

associated with a tendency to perceive rejection and negativity in neutral

faces.

In sum, studies of face processing in BPD, childhood maltreatment, and

attachment have found consistent biases in the perception of faces. There are is

a lack of consensus with regard to overall accuracy of emotional appraisal,

which may be accounted for by such factors as the response format of testing

(timed or untimed) or levels of affective arousal.

However, there is some consistency in the bias to interpret negative emotion to

relatively neutral faces in physically abused children, adult BPD, and in

non-clinical adults with fearful attachment style. At this point it is unclear

if social neurocognitive deficits are specific to BPD, or are the primary

consequence of early maltreatment or insecure attachment. Further, state-trait

distinctions are important, since social neurocognitive differences in BPD may

be most apparent during periods of intense negative affect. "

*****

I have noticed this often with my nada: she tended to interpret neutral

expressions and comments negatively. And yet, her parents were not abusive

people. My grandparents were just kind of blandly sweet and ordinary; my nada's

sisters do not corroborate my nada's perceptions of their childhood as being

filled with abuse and neglect. My own perceptions of my grandparents were that

they were just nice: not scary, mean, or rejecting.

The study of borderline pd and what causes it, is really in its infancy.

They're just starting to scratch the surface with real neurological studies of

the disorder.

-Annie

>

> I know this is common with BPD, how predominate is it with your family member?

My mom doesn't seem to be able to have any logical thoughts lately. When I

communicate with her all I can think of is the logic of reasoning class I took

in college because she utilizes practically every type of illogical reasoning we

learned. All I hear are things like " If you're not interested in seeing this

documentary about X you are not interested X " . " You don't want chocolate ice

cream for dessert tonight, you must not like chocolate or ice cream anymore " .

" This person did not speak to me at church today, this person does not like me " .

If I suggest that there are exceptions to things, that you can like chocolate

ice cream, but just not be in the mood for it, she says she can't deal with that

thought because she will have to " rethink her whole world " LOL. No wonder she

doesn't work or go out into the world much, it must be so exhausting trying to

function in the gray world, she would have to " rethink " every little thing! What

I don't get is why doesn't she rethink it, learn that there is gray and move on?

What is the block that the black and white thinking can't get around?

>

[Guest guest]

and isnt it both exhausting and intensly boring to talk for that long to

someone who thinks chocolate ice cream is such a big effing deal?! in my

opinion this behavior is common in waifs and is part of why i could totally

strangle myself at about this point in the workweek after spending 24 hrs w

waif boss over three days. i feel ya!!

>

>

> I don't really know the answer to that question, but recent studies of the

brains of those with bpd seem to conclude that there is physical, organic

cognitive dysfunction going on in the way those with bpd perceive and

interpret emotional information.

>

> Possibly, the " black and white " thinking of borderline pd might be due to

something like " bad wiring " in the brain. Sort of like someone who is born

color-blind can't perceive the difference in blue and green, the person with

bpd can't perceive nuances of emotional expression or " shades of gray " in

other people's faces, tone of voice, body language, or words.

>

> Perhaps bpd is like being " emotionally color-blind " or " emotionally

tone-deaf. "

>

> Here is a link to a Baylor experiment that concluded that the brains of

those with bpd aren't registering on some level that they're receiving

anything in a game of give-and-take:

>

> http://www.bcm.edu/news/item.cfm?newsID=1177

>

> And here is an excerpt from a study concluding that those with bpd will

tend to interpret neutral facial expressions as negative/hostile.

>

> http://www.klinikundforschung.de/sup/heft9/neurocognition.htm

>

> " ...In the first study to assess individuals with BPD in face perception

and appraisal, faces of varying emotional expressions were shown to a BPD

and control group (44). The BPD group was less accurate than controls in

identifying the emotions on the faces. A second study found that individuals

with BPD (with a history of childhood abuse) were as accurate as controls,

but were biased in interpreting negative expressions to neutral faces (45).

>

> These findings are consistent with a neuroimaging study that found greater

amygdala activation in BPD relative to control in when viewed neutral faces

(46; reviewed below). Individuals with BPD in this imaging study also

appeared to infer negative intentions and untrustworthiness in the neutral

faces. Finally, in a recent study (47) BPD features in a non-clinical sample

were associated with a higher degree of anxious (fearful) attachment, which,

in turn, was associated with a tendency to perceive rejection and negativity

in neutral faces.

>

> In sum, studies of face processing in BPD, childhood maltreatment, and

attachment have found consistent biases in the perception of faces. There

are is a lack of consensus with regard to overall accuracy of emotional

appraisal, which may be accounted for by such factors as the response format

of testing (timed or untimed) or levels of affective arousal.

>

> However, there is some consistency in the bias to interpret negative

emotion to relatively neutral faces in physically abused children, adult

BPD, and in non-clinical adults with fearful attachment style. At this point

it is unclear if social neurocognitive deficits are specific to BPD, or are

the primary consequence of early maltreatment or insecure attachment.

Further, state-trait distinctions are important, since social neurocognitive

differences in BPD may be most apparent during periods of intense negative

affect. "

> *****

>

> I have noticed this often with my nada: she tended to interpret neutral

expressions and comments negatively. And yet, her parents were not abusive

people. My grandparents were just kind of blandly sweet and ordinary; my

nada's sisters do not corroborate my nada's perceptions of their childhood

as being filled with abuse and neglect. My own perceptions of my

grandparents were that they were just nice: not scary, mean, or rejecting.

>

> The study of borderline pd and what causes it, is really in its infancy.

They're just starting to scratch the surface with real neurological studies

of the disorder.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>>

>> I know this is common with BPD, how predominate is it with your family

member? My mom doesn't seem to be able to have any logical thoughts lately.

When I communicate with her all I can think of is the logic of reasoning

class I took in college because she utilizes practically every type of

illogical reasoning we learned. All I hear are things like " If you're not

interested in seeing this documentary about X you are not interested X " .

" You don't want chocolate ice cream for dessert tonight, you must not like

chocolate or ice cream anymore " . " This person did not speak to me at church

today, this person does not like me " . If I suggest that there are exceptions

to things, that you can like chocolate ice cream, but just not be in the

mood for it, she says she can't deal with that thought because she will have

to " rethink her whole world " LOL. No wonder she doesn't work or go out into

the world much, it must be so exhausting trying to function in the gray

world, she would have to " rethink " every little thing! What I don't get is

why doesn't she rethink it, learn that there is gray and move on? What is

the block that the black and white thinking can't get around?

>>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ha, I know, I love how she says it as if rethinking her world would be a bad

thing or simply just too time consuming for her. I couldn't resist sending her

a link about fallacious thinking, her response is that there is nothing wrong

with black and white thinking and that many people do it. But my favorite part

of her response is that it is black and white thinking for anyone to say that

black and white thinking is bad and to " condemn " a whole group of people who

think like that. There is a really beauty to her ability to deny there is

anything wrong with the way she functions, it is truly remarkable.

> >

> > I know this is common with BPD, how predominate is it with your family

member? My mom doesn't seem to be able to have any logical thoughts lately. When

I communicate with her all I can think of is the logic of reasoning class I took

in college because she utilizes practically every type of illogical reasoning we

learned. All I hear are things like " If you're not interested in seeing this

documentary about X you are not interested X " . " You don't want chocolate ice

cream for dessert tonight, you must not like chocolate or ice cream anymore " .

" This person did not speak to me at church today, this person does not like me " .

If I suggest that there are exceptions to things, that you can like chocolate

ice cream, but just not be in the mood for it, she says she can't deal with that

thought because she will have to " rethink her whole world " LOL. No wonder she

doesn't work or go out into the world much, it must be so exhausting trying to

function in the gray world, she would have to " rethink " every little thing! What

I don't get is why doesn't she rethink it, learn that there is gray and move on?

What is the block that the black and white thinking can't get around?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, that's reminding me so much of the kinds of conversations that " Alice "

would have with the various characters in " Wonderland " , who were basically

speaking nonsense but in a very authoritative and seemingly logical way.

If you read the chapter of " Through the Looking Glass " about Alice's encounter

with Humpty Dumpty, it really sounds a lot like your nada's " logic " .

Here's an excerpt:

'....There's glory for you!' (said Humpty Dumpty.)

'I don't know what you mean by " glory " ,' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't — till I tell you. I

meant " there's a nice knock-down argument for you! " '

'But " glory " doesn't mean " a nice knock-down argument " ,' Alice objected.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means

just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many

different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

****************************

Conclusion: you can't have a logical, rational argument with an illogical,

irrational person, is what it boils down to, in my opinion.

-Annie

>

> Ha, I know, I love how she says it as if rethinking her world would be a bad

thing or simply just too time consuming for her. I couldn't resist sending her

a link about fallacious thinking, her response is that there is nothing wrong

with black and white thinking and that many people do it. But my favorite part

of her response is that it is black and white thinking for anyone to say that

black and white thinking is bad and to " condemn " a whole group of people who

think like that. There is a really beauty to her ability to deny there is

anything wrong with the way she functions, it is truly remarkable.

[Guest guest]

I think that is a perfect example, sounds just like how I imagine nada's

internal conversation goes. I've never read that book, mostly because I think

I'd see nada everywhere and it would just cheese me off that they all act so

irrationally. LOL

Subject: Re: Black and White Thinking

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Thursday, October 6, 2011, 8:42 AM

Â

Wow, that's reminding me so much of the kinds of conversations that

" Alice " would have with the various characters in " Wonderland " , who were

basically speaking nonsense but in a very authoritative and seemingly logical

way.

If you read the chapter of " Through the Looking Glass " about Alice's encounter

with Humpty Dumpty, it really sounds a lot like your nada's " logic " .

Here's an excerpt:

'....There's glory for you!' (said Humpty Dumpty.)

'I don't know what you mean by " glory " ,' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't — till I tell you. I

meant " there's a nice knock-down argument for you! " '

'But " glory " doesn't mean " a nice knock-down argument " ,' Alice objected.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means

just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many

different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

****************************

Conclusion: you can't have a logical, rational argument with an illogical,

irrational person, is what it boils down to, in my opinion.

-Annie

[Guest guest]

I have no idea what it is that keeps them from acknowledging exceptions. I guess

it's just as hard for me to understand her thinking as it is for her to

understand mine. It just doesn't make sense that someone can only see things in

terms of " yes " or " no " even when the evidence is staring them in the face!

I think in my nada's case, part of it may actually be that she is literally

underdeveloped intellectually. She once told me that her psychologist said she's

emotionally " stuck " at five years old. I think intellectually she's " stuck " at

about 12. She even recently went for some placement tests at a local community

college and placed at a 6th grade math level. I also have a little sister who's

actually 12, and the similarities in how they reason is kind of frightening. I

was raised by someone with the power of an adult, the reasoning ability of a 12

year old, and the emotions (not to mention egocentricity) of a five year old.

Remind me why I'm not in a padded room somewhere? LOL

Subject: Black and White Thinking

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Wednesday, October 5, 2011, 4:52 PM

Â

I know this is common with BPD, how predominate is it with your family

member? My mom doesn't seem to be able to have any logical thoughts lately. When

I communicate with her all I can think of is the logic of reasoning class I took

in college because she utilizes practically every type of illogical reasoning we

learned. All I hear are things like " If you're not interested in seeing this

documentary about X you are not interested X " . " You don't want chocolate ice

cream for dessert tonight, you must not like chocolate or ice cream anymore " .

" This person did not speak to me at church today, this person does not like me " .

If I suggest that there are exceptions to things, that you can like chocolate

ice cream, but just not be in the mood for it, she says she can't deal with that

thought because she will have to " rethink her whole world " LOL. No wonder she

doesn't work or go out into the world much, it must be so exhausting trying to

function in the

gray world, she would have to " rethink " every little thing! What I don't get is

why doesn't she rethink it, learn that there is gray and move on? What is the

block that the black and white thinking can't get around?

[Guest guest]

My mom is 81 and I just found out about BPD but she's a classic case and a

friend I met at support group (who has BPD) said she never will be logical-in

her mind and that I've got to just realize that and have really thick skin.

She'll never behave any differently. In a way its hard to accept that she'll

never be a supporting loving mom but then again at least I know now that its not

me and never has been.  She just can't help herself

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Friday, October 7, 2011 12:05 AM

Subject: Re: Black and White Thinking

 

I have no idea what it is that keeps them from acknowledging exceptions. I guess

it's just as hard for me to understand her thinking as it is for her to

understand mine. It just doesn't make sense that someone can only see things in

terms of " yes " or " no " even when the evidence is staring them in the face!

I think in my nada's case, part of it may actually be that she is literally

underdeveloped intellectually. She once told me that her psychologist said she's

emotionally " stuck " at five years old. I think intellectually she's " stuck " at

about 12. She even recently went for some placement tests at a local community

college and placed at a 6th grade math level. I also have a little sister who's

actually 12, and the similarities in how they reason is kind of frightening. I

was raised by someone with the power of an adult, the reasoning ability of a 12

year old, and the emotions (not to mention egocentricity) of a five year old.

Remind me why I'm not in a padded room somewhere? LOL

Subject: Black and White Thinking

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Wednesday, October 5, 2011, 4:52 PM

 

I know this is common with BPD, how predominate is it with your family member?

My mom doesn't seem to be able to have any logical thoughts lately. When I

communicate with her all I can think of is the logic of reasoning class I took

in college because she utilizes practically every type of illogical reasoning we

learned. All I hear are things like " If you're not interested in seeing this

documentary about X you are not interested X " . " You don't want chocolate ice

cream for dessert tonight, you must not like chocolate or ice cream anymore " .

" This person did not speak to me at church today, this person does not like me " .

If I suggest that there are exceptions to things, that you can like chocolate

ice cream, but just not be in the mood for it, she says she can't deal with that

thought because she will have to " rethink her whole world " LOL. No wonder she

doesn't work or go out into the world much, it must be so exhausting trying to

function in the

gray world, she would have to " rethink " every little thing! What I don't get is

why doesn't she rethink it, learn that there is gray and move on? What is the

block that the black and white thinking can't get around?

[Guest guest]

You bring up Alice in Wonderland.

I hated that story. Literally had no tolerance for it--the story makes me crazy.

I didn't like being told one thing, only to be told another, only to find out

everything is wrong and there is no way to get a handle on it. That was not

" fun. "

I had too much of that in everyday life from being a KO.

> >

> > Ha, I know, I love how she says it as if rethinking her world would be a bad

thing or simply just too time consuming for her. I couldn't resist sending her

a link about fallacious thinking, her response is that there is nothing wrong

with black and white thinking and that many people do it. But my favorite part

of her response is that it is black and white thinking for anyone to say that

black and white thinking is bad and to " condemn " a whole group of people who

think like that. There is a really beauty to her ability to deny there is

anything wrong with the way she functions, it is truly remarkable.

>