Guest guest Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 hey lavendar, so ia always imagined the nirse maid thing as kind of one of those archaic beliefs, like the old school cultures who raise. all but one daughter to marry and have lives but the last one, usually the youngest must devote her life to her aging parents. in the hands of a bpd, a weird archaic belief likr that can truely become a ball of destriction. if u have another way of looking at it i would love to know! > > > (((((Lavender))))) I'm glad something I posted helped you. And I'll convey your " toast " to my Sister. And yes, nadas who feel the need or compulsion to attempt to destroy their daughters' femininity and crush their potential to be wives and mothers are just too damned mentally ill to be raising children. Period. End of sentence. Its wrong. Some kind of intervention needs to happen in such cases, the child's future is at stake. > > -Annie > > >> Annie, >> >> > Put in physical terms, that would be like... performing a home hysterectomy on your little girl and scarring her face up to prevent her from ever becoming a wife and mother. Its so beyond cruel there are no words to convey it. Performing this destruction in a physical way would get nada serious jail time; but because the destruction is " only " emotional, it " doesn't count. " >> >.... >> > I become so enraged by this particular behavior because that's what was done to me: the emotional equivalent of being physically deformed, by my own nada. >> > -Annie >> >> You have found such a good way to help me wrap my head around this. I've just started therapy and I've told her a little of what I've written here and never felt anything about it...just words said to me and I've repeated. I've been wondering if I've been brutalised by words. I'm having a huge problem of not really feeling or rather connecting real feelings but somehow what you've written has just reached through that wall of non-feeling into a glimpse of feeling and also a sense that I matter and such things weren't really the sort of thing that should be said. >> The caps on my keyboard just aren't big enough but THANK-YOU. >> and thank-you too for being enraged because your anger over this has really helped me connect. >> >> You too shouldn't haven't gone through stuff like this. >> >> BTW I'd offer a toast to your sister. >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Annie, these were such powerful words and so very helpful. I fear becoming a mother or having children (I actually had a nightmare about it last night; that I was pregnant and was terrified because I eventually had to give birth and I didn't know anything but I had to protect the unwanted kid from Nada - so frightening) and for a long time I thought I would never get married because I was told from an early age that if I did, I would be trapped just like Nada, and that all men were evil and wrong and chauvinist and out to get me. Nada blamed my Dad for everything and her unfulfilled life. What she had is exactly what I never want - raising four children and feeling scared, trapped and overwhelmed all the time? No thank you. My Dad did all of the heavy-lifting in really raising us. All she did was make our lives a living hell. In my English poetry class a couple years ago, we did a feminist reading of some literature. The idea that the cyclical woman is a beautiful, strong thing was so appealing. Strong is not stoic. Resilience is strong. We as women go through cycles of rebirth in a way and it makes us stronger and more beautiful. We are consistent and steady and follow the rest of nature's cycles, like the seasons and the moon and that in itself is beautiful. She also had this really subversive " feminist " act where she would get all angry about men taking away her rights and choices, but what it really reinforced was a belief that men wouldn't see me as equal, intelligent or good for anything except my body. I think she got these archaic beliefs from her father who basically treated her and all her sisters like shit and assumed they would never amount to anything and lauded her younger brother. My experience with him this past year of my Uncle telling him about my double major in Engineering and about my process of choosing graduate schools and about how proud he must be of me and he just shrugged and asked if girls did engineering and implied I might not be smart enough. pr*ck. Luckily, I've had a great Dad and some awesome brothers that are helping me see the good men out there. I still have just such low expectations for guys it surprises me when they are responsible and compassionate. Doug's letter in this thread made me so happy. http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/09/12/a-message-to-women-from-a-man-yo\ u-are-not-%E2%80%9Ccrazy%E2%80%9D/ This link also reminded me of this conversation as well as of a past thread on Gaslighting. Fascinating stuff. I'd love to hear what you all think! > > > > > > > > Lavendar, a lot of the women in the room at the thing I went to felt > > > exactly > > > > like you do. they decided to reframe the experience and heal emotionally. > > > > I'm not totally sure how to do that - but I found it a very interesting > > > > reframe and I want to look into it more. Why not dump the past, embrace a > > > > new belief, grieve the pain and celebrate in the future? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Oh Clefairy!!!! I know, me too. My nada did those feminist things while at the same time repressing me more than a male ever has by treating my body like an object, calling me a slut and telling me I was stupid. I AM NOT STUPID!!! OMG, being treated like I am stupid is this HUGE trigger button for me. Yes, I do dumb things on occaision. And yes I have strengths (language, arts and people) and weeknesses (math) but I am NOT STUPID You aren't either you are a beautiful sensitive girl and I'd like to put my cowboy boot up the ass of your nada and uncle. Shwew someone woke up feisty On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:27 PM, clefairy_looking_for_moonstone < clefairy_looking_for_moonstone@...> wrote: > ** > > > Annie, these were such powerful words and so very helpful. > > I fear becoming a mother or having children (I actually had a nightmare > about it last night; that I was pregnant and was terrified because I > eventually had to give birth and I didn't know anything but I had to protect > the unwanted kid from Nada - so frightening) and for a long time I thought I > would never get married because I was told from an early age that if I did, > I would be trapped just like Nada, and that all men were evil and wrong and > chauvinist and out to get me. Nada blamed my Dad for everything and her > unfulfilled life. What she had is exactly what I never want - raising four > children and feeling scared, trapped and overwhelmed all the time? No thank > you. My Dad did all of the heavy-lifting in really raising us. All she did > was make our lives a living hell. > > In my English poetry class a couple years ago, we did a feminist reading of > some literature. The idea that the cyclical woman is a beautiful, strong > thing was so appealing. Strong is not stoic. Resilience is strong. We as > women go through cycles of rebirth in a way and it makes us stronger and > more beautiful. We are consistent and steady and follow the rest of nature's > cycles, like the seasons and the moon and that in itself is beautiful. > > She also had this really subversive " feminist " act where she would get all > angry about men taking away her rights and choices, but what it really > reinforced was a belief that men wouldn't see me as equal, intelligent or > good for anything except my body. I think she got these archaic beliefs from > her father who basically treated her and all her sisters like shit and > assumed they would never amount to anything and lauded her younger brother. > My experience with him this past year of my Uncle telling him about my > double major in Engineering and about my process of choosing graduate > schools and about how proud he must be of me and he just shrugged and asked > if girls did engineering and implied I might not be smart enough. pr*ck. > > Luckily, I've had a great Dad and some awesome brothers that are helping me > see the good men out there. I still have just such low expectations for guys > it surprises me when they are responsible and compassionate. Doug's letter > in this thread made me so happy. > > > http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/09/12/a-message-to-women-from-a-man-yo\ u-are-not-%E2%80%9Ccrazy%E2%80%9D/ > > This link also reminded me of this conversation as well as of a past thread > on Gaslighting. Fascinating stuff. I'd love to hear what you all think! > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lavendar, a lot of the women in the room at the thing I went to > felt > > > > exactly > > > > > like you do. they decided to reframe the experience and heal > emotionally. > > > > > I'm not totally sure how to do that - but I found it a very > interesting > > > > > reframe and I want to look into it more. Why not dump the past, > embrace a > > > > > new belief, grieve the pain and celebrate in the future? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 What is with these women who oppress other women in the name of feminism anyway - I could give a hundred examples. And I will in a few hours. On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 6:56 AM, Girlscout Cowboy <girlscout.cowboy@... > wrote: > Oh Clefairy!!!! I know, me too. My nada did those feminist things while at > the same time repressing me more than a male ever has by treating my body > like an object, calling me a slut and telling me I was stupid. I AM NOT > STUPID!!! OMG, being treated like I am stupid is this HUGE trigger button > for me. Yes, I do dumb things on occaision. And yes I have strengths > (language, arts and people) and weeknesses (math) but I am NOT STUPID > > You aren't either you are a beautiful sensitive girl and I'd like to put my > cowboy boot up the ass of your nada and uncle. > > Shwew someone woke up feisty > > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:27 PM, clefairy_looking_for_moonstone < > clefairy_looking_for_moonstone@...> wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> Annie, these were such powerful words and so very helpful. >> >> I fear becoming a mother or having children (I actually had a nightmare >> about it last night; that I was pregnant and was terrified because I >> eventually had to give birth and I didn't know anything but I had to protect >> the unwanted kid from Nada - so frightening) and for a long time I thought I >> would never get married because I was told from an early age that if I did, >> I would be trapped just like Nada, and that all men were evil and wrong and >> chauvinist and out to get me. Nada blamed my Dad for everything and her >> unfulfilled life. What she had is exactly what I never want - raising four >> children and feeling scared, trapped and overwhelmed all the time? No thank >> you. My Dad did all of the heavy-lifting in really raising us. All she did >> was make our lives a living hell. >> >> In my English poetry class a couple years ago, we did a feminist reading >> of some literature. The idea that the cyclical woman is a beautiful, strong >> thing was so appealing. Strong is not stoic. Resilience is strong. We as >> women go through cycles of rebirth in a way and it makes us stronger and >> more beautiful. We are consistent and steady and follow the rest of nature's >> cycles, like the seasons and the moon and that in itself is beautiful. >> >> She also had this really subversive " feminist " act where she would get all >> angry about men taking away her rights and choices, but what it really >> reinforced was a belief that men wouldn't see me as equal, intelligent or >> good for anything except my body. I think she got these archaic beliefs from >> her father who basically treated her and all her sisters like shit and >> assumed they would never amount to anything and lauded her younger brother. >> My experience with him this past year of my Uncle telling him about my >> double major in Engineering and about my process of choosing graduate >> schools and about how proud he must be of me and he just shrugged and asked >> if girls did engineering and implied I might not be smart enough. pr*ck. >> >> Luckily, I've had a great Dad and some awesome brothers that are helping >> me see the good men out there. I still have just such low expectations for >> guys it surprises me when they are responsible and compassionate. Doug's >> letter in this thread made me so happy. >> >> >> http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/09/12/a-message-to-women-from-a-man-yo\ u-are-not-%E2%80%9Ccrazy%E2%80%9D/ >> >> This link also reminded me of this conversation as well as of a past >> thread on Gaslighting. Fascinating stuff. I'd love to hear what you all >> think! >> >> >> >> > > > > >> > > > > Lavendar, a lot of the women in the room at the thing I went to >> felt >> > > > exactly >> > > > > like you do. they decided to reframe the experience and heal >> emotionally. >> > > > > I'm not totally sure how to do that - but I found it a very >> interesting >> > > > > reframe and I want to look into it more. Why not dump the past, >> embrace a >> > > > > new belief, grieve the pain and celebrate in the future? >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 My recollection of the original purpose of the feminist movement was to eliminate inequality of pay: to make it a law that women should have equal pay for equal work, that when candidates for promotion had equal qualifications, gender should not be the determining factor regarding promotions in the workplace, etc... so originally the feminist movement was about gaining equality for women, about empowering and valuing women. It was needed because up until about the mid-'60's, the cultural norm was that the only jobs available for women were low-paying jobs; women were not considered suitable for high-powered, high-paying jobs in corporate America. And even if the rare, odd woman did buck the system and become a doctor or an executive, she was earning only about half of what her male counterparts were earning. But then somehow the feminist movement devolved into something really nasty and unhealthy (in my opinion): it devolved into a hate group, into man-bashing and into making women feel ashamed or inferior or subversive if they wanted to be full-time mothers and home-makers and/or look attractive and feminine in the workplace. What your mother did to you, GS, is sort of the opposite of the original intention of the feminist philosophy: empowering and valuing women. Instead, your nada (like the nadas of many of us here) was tearing you down, dis-empowering you, trying to grind any sense of healthy self-esteem and femininity you had into the dirt. That isn't what either feminism or mothering is supposed to be about! That kind of toxic behavior is, in my opinion, due to pure narcissism: malignant jealousy, envy, and resentment of her own daughter, resulting in feeling entitled and justified to destroy her own daughter *as though her daughter is her rival instead of her beloved child.* Seems to me that the daughters of narcissistic and/or borderline pd (Cluster mothers are basically screwed; we had the opposite of what mothering is supposed to be. We're lucky to have survived at all, really. Its a tribute to our own innate resilience and will to survive that we're even here. -Annie > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Lavendar, a lot of the women in the room at the thing I went to > >> felt > >> > > > exactly > >> > > > > like you do. they decided to reframe the experience and heal > >> emotionally. > >> > > > > I'm not totally sure how to do that - but I found it a very > >> interesting > >> > > > > reframe and I want to look into it more. Why not dump the past, > >> embrace a > >> > > > > new belief, grieve the pain and celebrate in the future? > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Thank you Annie, thank you so much. That's it exactly. And yes, we are here, and I'm so GD proud right now - because I did almost kill myself and now Ive climbed out and I'm moving on. And I believe she did want me to kill myself. I think that was her goal. It's evil, it really is. On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 8:08 AM, anuria67854 wrote: > ** > > > My recollection of the original purpose of the feminist movement was to > eliminate inequality of pay: to make it a law that women should have equal > pay for equal work, that when candidates for promotion had equal > qualifications, gender should not be the determining factor regarding > promotions in the workplace, etc... > so originally the feminist movement was about gaining equality for women, > about empowering and valuing women. > > It was needed because up until about the mid-'60's, the cultural norm was > that the only jobs available for women were low-paying jobs; women were not > considered suitable for high-powered, high-paying jobs in corporate America. > And even if the rare, odd woman did buck the system and become a doctor or > an executive, she was earning only about half of what her male counterparts > were earning. > > But then somehow the feminist movement devolved into something really nasty > and unhealthy (in my opinion): it devolved into a hate group, into > man-bashing and into making women feel ashamed or inferior or subversive if > they wanted to be full-time mothers and home-makers and/or look attractive > and feminine in the workplace. > > What your mother did to you, GS, is sort of the opposite of the original > intention of the feminist philosophy: empowering and valuing women. Instead, > your nada (like the nadas of many of us here) was tearing you down, > dis-empowering you, trying to grind any sense of healthy self-esteem and > femininity you had into the dirt. That isn't what either feminism or > mothering is supposed to be about! > > That kind of toxic behavior is, in my opinion, due to pure narcissism: > malignant jealousy, envy, and resentment of her own daughter, resulting in > feeling entitled and justified to destroy her own daughter *as though her > daughter is her rival instead of her beloved child.* > > Seems to me that the daughters of narcissistic and/or borderline pd > (Cluster mothers are basically screwed; we had the opposite of what > mothering is supposed to be. We're lucky to have survived at all, really. > Its a tribute to our own innate resilience and will to survive that we're > even here. > > -Annie > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Lavendar, a lot of the women in the room at the thing I went > to > > >> felt > > >> > > > exactly > > >> > > > > like you do. they decided to reframe the experience and heal > > >> emotionally. > > >> > > > > I'm not totally sure how to do that - but I found it a very > > >> interesting > > >> > > > > reframe and I want to look into it more. Why not dump the > past, > > >> embrace a > > >> > > > > new belief, grieve the pain and celebrate in the future? > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 > Seems to me that the daughters of narcissistic and/or borderline pd (Cluster mothers are basically screwed; we had the opposite of what mothering is supposed to be. We're lucky to have survived at all, really. Its a tribute to our own innate resilience and will to survive that we're even here. > > -Annie > Such a coincidence! When asked during an assessment about my achievements I put 'I feel I have accomplished very little that is worthwhile or that means anything except to have survived some difficult times'. In such an achievement based culture it's hard when people seem to expect more than can be done and yet not know of or understand the circumstances that tend to happen around BPD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 I just am wondering if it was something of the abandonment factor behind it, or as I've seen in other posts some really strange need to have a fairy-tale best-mate/mother-daughter relationship that bears little resemblance to reality. So life denying when, at least for me anyway, there's this constant pull to 'do things for me'/'be here for me' without any recognition of being first an adult, and second someone with a life of their own let alone being treated reasonably. Something I'm really struggling with. Wondered how you coped with it? > >> Annie, > >> > >> > Put in physical terms, that would be like... performing a home > hysterectomy on your little girl and scarring her face up to prevent her > from ever becoming a wife and mother. Its so beyond cruel there are no words > to convey it. Performing this destruction in a physical way would get nada > serious jail time; but because the destruction is " only " emotional, it > " doesn't count. " > >> >.... > >> > I become so enraged by this particular behavior because that's what was > done to me: the emotional equivalent of being physically deformed, by my own > nada. > >> > -Annie > >> > >> You have found such a good way to help me wrap my head around this. I've > just started therapy and I've told her a little of what I've written here > and never felt anything about it...just words said to me and I've repeated. > I've been wondering if I've been brutalised by words. I'm having a huge > problem of not really feeling or rather connecting real feelings but somehow > what you've written has just reached through that wall of non-feeling into a > glimpse of feeling and also a sense that I matter and such things weren't > really the sort of thing that should be said. > >> The caps on my keyboard just aren't big enough but THANK-YOU. > >> and thank-you too for being enraged because your anger over this has > really helped me connect. > >> > >> You too shouldn't haven't gone through stuff like this. > >> > >> BTW I'd offer a toast to your sister. > >> > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 I think you're right on target with that analogy, Annie. It really is a terrible failing of our judicial system that this kind of " emotional mutilation " does not land these excuses for " parents " in serious legal trouble. It is really and truly " evil. " Subject: Re: THE Curse To: WTOAdultChildren1 Date: Wednesday, October 5, 2011, 12:12 PM I agree: I think that what your nada did to you, Lavender, was to project her very own feelings, traits, and flaws onto you. I think that's classic projection, actually. And what a devastatingly cruel thing to do to your own little child. In a very fundamental way, that is just so... well, I can't think of a more appropriate word that " evil " : to poison your own daughter's joy at being female, to take away your daughter's confidence and belief that she will someday be a great wife and a great mother, etc., essentially warping and crippling her own daughter's future. Put in physical terms, that would be like... performing a home hysterectomy on your little girl and scarring her face up to prevent her from ever becoming a wife and mother. Its so beyond cruel there are no words to convey it. Performing this destruction in a physical way would get nada serious jail time; but because the destruction is " only " emotional, it " doesn't count. " I become so enraged by this particular behavior because that's what was done to me: the emotional equivalent of being physically deformed, by my own nada. I'm so glad my little Sister managed to escape that particular form of mind-f**king by our nada; Sister apparently had a very strong maternal drive and knew she wanted to have children, and she did. And she was quite excellent at being a mom; her boy is now a happy, healthy, responsible young husband and father, himself. -Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 I agree, Fiona -- a welcoming red tent where were were able to be mentored and bond with other women would have been an empowering experience. Instead we were raised with shame and the expectation that we have to hide this part of ourselves and pretend we are all ok when we clearly aren't and could use the support. I ran into a bad run of cycles a couple years ago. I could barely leave my house, every half hour I was changing. I was making excuses to avoid work. It was awful. And frequent. I felt such anxiety, shame and frustration. There is no one to talk to about these things, most dr's do not know how to help either. I can see how easy it could be to opt for surgery. > > > > I saw a very interesting movie and discussion last night about menstruation > > and societal beliefs. I'll talk more but some ideas presented include that > > 1- menstruation should be a time of rebirth, introversion, review of the > > past month and planning for the next > > 2- PMS is not crankiness, but a time when our hormones allow us to speak the > > truth > > 3- negative views of menstruation have kept women down > > 4- negative views of menstruation and attitudes make the process more > > painful, and are passed mother to daughter > > 5- the uterus is a collective organ - as it takes a village to raise a child > > - kind of like mitochondrian DNA > > > > I just wondered if anyone else had extremly negative views of menstruation > > and feminity forced on them? I'm sure menstrual trauma on this group will be > > common. I'd love to open the conversation and make this a safe place to > > discuss the taboo topic. > > XOXO Girlscout > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 I know I am late on this topic but I wanted to put my head in the sand while considering my memories. My nada grew up in the era when you had to ask the pharmacist for feminine hygiene supplies. My NPD grandmother used to send my 11 year old mom in to the store to buy them for the family. My nada got no explanations, just " put this on " and " wrap it in newspaper " and throw away in a special bin--which she found shaming. My nada's friend's mom's finally told her what menstruation was and why. Since nada's experience was so awful, she went completely overboad in the opposite direction with me and Sis. To this day she BRAGS about what a good mother she was for informing us abt menstruation. Sh made it all WAY to big a deal. The ONLY sympathy we got was for cramps--everything else we were just fakers or complainers. However, we weren't allowed tampons because it would damage our hymens! F**king insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Thank you for sharing this article > > http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2011/09/12/a-message-to-women-from-a-man-yo\ u-are-not-%E2%80%9Ccrazy%E2%80%9D/ > > This link also reminded me of this conversation as well as of a past thread on Gaslighting. Fascinating stuff. I'd love to hear what you all think! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 My sister has one child. The first time she held her son in front of our nada, she remarked how 'unnatural' Sis looked holding a child. That was 36 years ago, and Sis still smarts from that comment. And yet nada meets total strangers on the street with babes in arms and later refers to them as looking like the Madonna. > > > > Lavendar, a lot of the women in the room at the thing I went to felt exactly > > like you do. they decided to reframe the experience and heal emotionally. > > I'm not totally sure how to do that - but I found it a very interesting > > reframe and I want to look into it more. Why not dump the past, embrace a > > new belief, grieve the pain and celebrate in the future? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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